Literal chariots and horses?

athenasius

Well-Known Member
I saw something new in here when I was thinking about this passage of Ezek 38:9 last night.

The word STORM stood out in a horrifying way.

Thou shalt ascend H5927  and come H935  like a storm, H7722  thou shalt be H1961  like a cloud H6051  to cover H3680  the land, H776  thou, H859  and all H3605  thy bands, H102  and many H7227  people H5971  with H854  thee.

storm H7722 is this:
shô' shô'âh shô'âh
sho, sho-aw', sho-aw'
From an unused root meaning to rush over; a tempest; by implication devastation: - desolate (-ion), destroy, destruction, storm, wasteness.

I don't know why I missed it before, but the word Shoah in modern Hebrew is the name the Jews gave to the Holocaust.

THAT kind of devastation!
 

MapleLeaf

Well-Known Member
I used to scoff at the idea of the horses and chariots being literal and it's still not my top theory but honestly, anything is possible. What matters is that it will be an absolutely devastating onslaught totally thwarted by the might of God. Now, will this be entirely supernatural or will Israel's new defense systems be part of their use? Like, God using natural means to do His will? I have heard both.
 

athenasius

Well-Known Member
What matters is that it will be an absolutely devastating onslaught totally thwarted by the might of God. Now, will this be entirely supernatural or will Israel's new defense systems be part of their use? Like, God using natural means to do His will? I have heard both.
If you've heard both, I'd say the ones who point to Israel's ability are not reading the Bible, but reading their own ideas INTO the Bible.

Reading both chapters 38 and 39 of Ezekiel to get the full context nowhere does God say He will use the IDF.

There is a reason.

God is using this battle which HE alone fights, to turn all Israel back to Him. We need to compare Ezek 38 &39 to Isaiah 17.

Look closely at the wording around the Damascus destruction in Isaiah 17:9 when God is using the word ben Israel which is literally sons of Israel, translated "children of Israel" or "Israelites" as His instrument." 9 In that day their strong cities, which they left because of the Israelites, will be like places abandoned to thickets and undergrowth. And all will be desolation." NIV

God says in Isaiah, the Damascus destruction that the "children of Israel" fight and the passage implies that they and everyone else will know they win because of God, but the IDF does the action.

God specifies that the sons of Israel (the IDF) will be why Damascus is destroyed.

NOTE CAREFULLY it is NOT Israel that starts that war. It is Damascus. It backfires on them.

Because God has started to move on Israel's behalf to make Himself known.

But He uses the IDF, and the process of turning Israel back to Him begins.

In contrast to Isaiah 17, God's explanation of what happens to the Ezekiel 38-39 invasion is completely His own.

Look at all the "I" statements God makes in those chapters. Even 38: 21 I will summon a sword against Gog on all my mountains, declares the Sovereign Lord. Every man’s sword will be against his brother.

Do you see that God explains within the next sentence how that sword is summoned-- It is the enemy fighting within their ranks. This has lots of past --even recent events same method where God turns the weapons of the enemy against themselves.

All thru Ezekiel chapter 39 God is giving detail after detail how all this happens, and it's HIM alone. And the reason WHY is to draw all Israel to Him again. And make Himself known among the rest of the world too, but the focus is ISRAEL.

So in Isaiah 17 God uses the IDF, and in Ezekiel God does it alone. This is a one two punch straight at Israel's unbelief. This is an ongoing process that God begins in Isaiah 17, moving onto Ezek 38 & 39, and thru the whole of Jacobs trouble.

Paul explains it in Romans 11 and a key is in Romans 11: 25-27

An important key concept is that Israel doesn't "soften" towards God as a nation, till AFTER the church is gone, that "full number of the Gentiles has come in". God is either dealing with Israel or the church, not both at the same time. Even in the period up to the Cross it was Israel. After the Cross and definitely after Pentecost, God was dealing with the newborn church, completely Jewish, but soon to become largely Gentile although some Gentiles were present (Peter's Roman centurion) and some Jews are now present in the church. It is neither Jew nor Gentile but a new creation in Christ. When we go UP in the Rapture God again turns to the nation of Israel to bring about salvation.

25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in,

26 and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written:

“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”

Now that goes along with the WHY that God is doing what He is doing in Isaiah and Ezekiel, and in fact the whole of the Tribulation period. Because in Isaiah 17: verses 7, 8 and 10 God explains WHY. Same reason.
Isaiah 17: 7,8 and10a

7 In that day people will look to their Maker
and turn their eyes to the Holy One of Israel.

8 They will not look to the altars,
the work of their hands,
and they will have no regard for the Asherah poles
and the incense altars their fingers have made.

10 You have forgotten God your Savior;
you have not remembered the Rock, your fortress.

verse 10 b last half goes onto a therefore-- a consequence of their actions, but I'm concentrating on the 3 bits in Isaiah 17 that explain God's reason for doing all this.

Now looking at Ezek 38 and 39 with 38 first because in 38 God is declaring He is making Himself known among the Gentiles (more on that later)
ch 38:
16 You will advance against my people Israel like a cloud that covers the land. In days to come, Gog, I will bring you against my land, so that the nations may know me when I am proved holy through you before their eyes.
and
23 And so I will show my greatness and my holiness, and I will make myself known in the sight of many nations. Then they will know that I am the Lord.

who is the "they" that God is speaking of? It is the GENTILE INVASION FORCES

Note here that these invaders don't have any Christians. Christians in their ranks would KNOW GOD ALREADY! This is a hint that Ez 38 at least happens AFTER the Rapture and it is designed for God to make HIMSELF KNOWN AMONG THE GENTILES

But now to Chapter 39:
7 “‘I will make known my holy name among my people Israel. I will no longer let my holy name be profaned, and the nations will know that I the Lord am the Holy One in Israel.

12 “‘For seven months the Israelites will be burying them in order to cleanse the land. 13 All the people of the land will bury them, and the day I display my glory will be a memorable day for them, declares the Sovereign Lord.

21 “I will display my glory among the nations, and all the nations will see the punishment I inflict and the hand I lay on them. 22 From that day forward the people of Israel will know that I am the Lord their God.


NOW WE COME TO THE FINISH LINE

25 “Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord says: I will now restore the fortunes of Jacob and will have compassion on all the people of Israel, and I will be zealous for my holy name.

26 They will forget their shame and all the unfaithfulness they showed toward me when they lived in safety in their land with no one to make them afraid.

27 When I have brought them back from the nations and have gathered them from the countries of their enemies, I will be proved holy through them in the sight of many nations.

28 Then they will know that I am the Lord their God, for though I sent them into exile among the nations, I will gather them to their own land, not leaving any behind.

29 I will no longer hide my face from them, for I will pour out my Spirit on the people of Israel, declares the Sovereign Lord.”

God will pour His Spirit out on the people of Israel as the believing remnant survivors turn to Him as Jesus said here:

Matthew 23: 37 (for context the very next chapter Jesus speaks of the end times-- it's all one passage until Mtt26:1 when Jesus finishes speaking and points out in 2 days He will be crucified-- this is the last time He speaks to Israel as a nation)

37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. 38 Look, your house is left to you desolate. 39 For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’”

and Zechariah 12:10 says here:
10 “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.


by the way the Zechariah that is speaking here, Jesus mentions in Matthew 23 verse 35 And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.

In other words JESUS WAS POINTING THEM RIGHT AT THAT PASSAGE in Zechariah

But this is how the fulfillment will start to come to pass, as Israel notices God beginning with Damascus, intensifying with Ezekiel 38 & 39 and moving on into the Tribulation period.

So long answer but it should explain why these passages are so important to understand fully and why people who attribute the rescue of Israel to human means (the IDF) in Ezekiel 38 and 39 are so very very completely wrong.
 
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daygo

Well-Known Member
I saw something new in here when I was thinking about this passage of Ezek 38:9 last night.

The word STORM stood out in a horrifying way.

Thou shalt ascend H5927  and come H935  like a storm, H7722  thou shalt be H1961  like a cloud H6051  to cover H3680  the land, H776  thou, H859  and all H3605  thy bands, H102  and many H7227  people H5971  with H854  thee.

storm H7722 is this:
shô' shô'âh shô'âh
sho, sho-aw', sho-aw'
From an unused root meaning to rush over; a tempest; by implication devastation: - desolate (-ion), destroy, destruction, storm, wasteness.

I don't know why I missed it before, but the word Shoah in modern Hebrew is the name the Jews gave to the Holocaust.

THAT kind of devastation!
Not sure what your saying here athenasius.
 

Wings Like Eagles

Well-Known Member
Catastrophic judgments of God during the Tribulation will further diminish their capacity to do battle. Also, taking into consideration the inevitability of EMP's generated by nuclear blasts which will cripple anything electrical and electronic, the Antichrist forces and any leftover human army just might revert to an equestrian-mounted force in order to carry out their campaign. But that will be short-lived because as soon as The LORD and His army descend from Heaven, it's game over for them.
Interestingly, in the recent skirmishes between Indian soldiers and Chinese soldiers, some or all of the troops did not use guns or explosives. Instead, it was recorded by observers that they were using wooden rods, swords, knives, and other weapons. Isn't that strange? The soldiers from India fared a bit better than those of the Chinese.
 

Wings Like Eagles

Well-Known Member
Verse 9 of Ezekiel chapter 38 hints at an airborne force as we see here:
Thou shalt ascend H5927  and come H935  like a storm, H7722  thou shalt be H1961  like a cloud H6051  to cover H3680  the land, H776  thou, H859  and all H3605  thy bands, H102  and many H7227  people H5971  with H854  thee.

Starting with that word we translate as Ascend: H5927
‛âlâh
aw-law'
A primitive root; to ascend, intransitively (be high) or active (mount); used in a great variety of senses, primary and secondary, literally and figuratively: - arise (up). (cause to) ascend up, at once, break [the day] (up), bring (up), (cause to) burn, carry up, cast up, + shew, climb (up), (cause to, make to) come (up), cut off, dawn, depart, exalt, excel, fall, fetch up, get up, (make to) go (away, up), grow (over), increase, lay, leap, levy, lift (self) up, light, [make] up, X mention, mount up, offer, make to pay, + perfect, prefer, put (on), raise, recover, restore, (make to) rise (up), scale, set (up), shoot forth (up), (begin to) spring (up), stir up, take away (up), work.

all of which seems to say UP.

storm H7722 is this:
shô' shô'âh shô'âh
sho, sho-aw', sho-aw'
From an unused root meaning to rush over; a tempest; by implication devastation: - desolate (-ion), destroy, destruction, storm, wasteness.

so we saw ascending now the implication is that this army is behaving like a devastating storm. It's coming in at considerable speed, like the winds driving a storm.

Like a cloud H6051
‛ânân
aw-nawn'
From H6049; a cloud (as covering the sky), that is, the nimbusor thunder cloud: - cloud (-y).

so we again see this airborne threat coming in like a devastating storm, like a thunder cloud covering the sky

and this triple repitition seems to imply an AIRBORNE threat. As we saw in the Hebrew words translated into English as horse in Ezek 38:4 --this can include airborne vehicles that fly.

These same terms are repeated further on down in the chapter in the same way. The enemy comes from his place in the North-- rising UP, behaving like a storm cloud or a gathering thunderhead-- a nimbus type cloud.

This enemy of Israel uses some type of vehicle and the word we translate horse can also mean 2 different flying birds. The key terms in the definition are speed and going up into the air at points like a horse leaping or a crane or swallow flying. The word for horsemen implies riding in a vehicle, not as a horseback rider, but as a chariot driver with others beside in the chariot.

Until the dawn of the age of flight, NO Bible translator would have taken the Hebrew word Soos H5483 in it's other TWO meanings-- both birds. Instead of translating it flying in on cranes or swallows, they felt sure that Horses would be the best translation.


H5483 is this
sûs sûs

soos, soos

From an unused root meaning to skip (properly for joy); a horse(as leaping); also a swallow (from its rapid flight): - crane, horse ([-back, -hoof]).

But since the Wright brothers famous flight, the meaning in Soos or Leaper is back to being something that leaps, skips, or flies.
DRONES! Did anyone see the drone display that was done for Israel's last anniversary celebration? Some AMAZING drone work. Was that Israel's way of letting the forces lined up against them, "We have drones too and will use them to deadly effect."?
 

paul289

Well-Known Member
Ezekiel 39:3 also seems to imply an aerial assault: "Then I will strike your bow from your left hand and make your arrows drop from your right hand." If not airplanes, then perhaps missiles, since Iran seems so intent on acquiring long range ballistic missiles. Perhaps the missiles hit airborne troop transports instead of hitting Israeli targets, and then those transports and other missiles then land on the ground forces?

I'd also wager that the weapons being burned are the fuel sources from the vehicles that were destroyed or incapacitated. Actually, further looking at 39:3 kinda implies that the invading force was simply rendered incapable, since the weapon and ammunition are simply removed from the attacker. If fuel is to be taken from the vehicles and used by Israel, it's most likely a ground force. Perhaps God simply kills everyone who's in the tanks, trucks, and personnel carriers and leaves the vehicles unharmed. If it were airplanes, then their crashes would result in fuel tanks being ruptured and the fuel wasted, but if it's trucks and tanks with their supply convoys including fuel trucks, then simply removing the attackers from the situation would leave several armies' worth of fueled vehicles sitting on the mountains of Israel, ready to be appropriated.
 

GEOINTAnalyst

Well-Known Member
How would you describe a cell phone to someone from 500 BC? They have no idea what plastic is , no idea about electronics, no idea about batteries, no idea about touchscreens, no idea of cell towers, processors, CPU, RAM, Apps and the like - so how would you describe it to them? in the written form and not talking to them, but writing it down so they can read it - or at the very least of what it does in words they would understand. What would you write?

The reverse is also true - a man from 500 BC trying to describe modern weapons of war - he would use his description based on what he knows at the time of the vision

As in Rev 1:11 saying, What thou seest, write in a book
 
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MapleLeaf

Well-Known Member
Exactly. The Bible is the inspired, trustworthy word of God but it was still written by human hands. The disciples/apostles could not have known all about the full, deeper meaning of what they were writing. They were tapping into a truth bigger than themselves. And visions were still symbolic even though they depicted real, literal events. Think of King Nebecunezzar's dream about the statue of different metals. There wasn't a literal statue like that built (though maybe it gave him the idea to make one similar to it) and each layer represented a real, literal kingdom. Maybe Ezekiel was shown chariots and whatnot but it represents the battle of modern warfare. What matters is the sequence of events. Maybe the real Gog will invent a tank and name it The Chariot. Who knows?
 

Ghoti Ichthus

Pray so they do not serve alone. Ephesians 6:10-20
I was just reading some article about coronal mass ejections, which are waves of particles from the sun that can and do interfere with satellites. They also cause the aurora.

A substantial coronal mass ejection could fry the power grid. Our magnetosphere protects us but a strong enough ejection could cause problems.

In Ez 38, the invading forces against Israel are described as an army of chariots and horses.

I am one who thinks the Bible should be taken literally unless there’s context or reason to apply it otherwise.

The prophet Ezekiel would likely have had no idea about modern military equipment. But surely the army in his vision wouldn’t have looked like horses.

Which leads me to my question: will the invading army be literal horses and chariots or was this Ezekiel describing the army to the best of his ability given his knowledge at the time?

Horses, mules, camels, and dogs are still the most efficient means of moving people and stuff, depending on terrain, temperature, precipitation, etc.

There's another thread in which Russian and U.S. military procurement and use of horses (and mules) was discussed :smile


And I will turn thee back, and put hooks into thy jaws, and I will bring thee forth, and all thine army, horsesand horsemen, all of them clothed with all sorts of armour, even a great company with bucklers and shields, all of them handling swords:
Ezekiel 38: , KJV

And thou shalt come from thy place out of the north parts, thou, and many people with thee, all of them riding upon horses, a great company, and a mighty army:
Ezekiel 38:15, KJV


If God said it, I believe it, and that settles it :tappingfoot
So if/where the Bible says horses, then it's horses :smile
 

daygo

Well-Known Member
Horses, mules, camels, and dogs are still the most efficient means of moving people and stuff, depending on terrain, temperature, precipitation, etc.

There's another thread in which Russian and U.S. military procurement and use of horses (and mules) was discussed :smile


And I will turn thee back, and put hooks into thy jaws, and I will bring thee forth, and all thine army, horsesand horsemen, all of them clothed with all sorts of armour, even a great company with bucklers and shields, all of them handling swords:
Ezekiel 38: , KJV

And thou shalt come from thy place out of the north parts, thou, and many people with thee, all of them riding upon horses, a great company, and a mighty army:
Ezekiel 38:15, KJV


If God said it, I believe it, and that settles it :tappingfoot
So if/where the Bible says horses, then it's horses :smile
Interesting how it's going to panout isn't it.
 

athenasius

Well-Known Member
If God said it, I believe it, and that settles it :tappingfoot
So if/where the Bible says horses, then it's horses :smile
I agree, if God says it we should believe it.

Except the Bible didn't say horses it says Sus which directly translates to Leaper

H5483 (Strong)​

(I couldn't get the Hebrew letters to work in here)

sûs sûs

soos, soos

From an unused root meaning to skip (properly for joy); a horse(as leaping); also a swallow (from its rapid flight): - crane, horse ([-back, -hoof]). Compare H6571.

And only 1 out of the 3 possible English translations means horse.

The other 2/3 refer to birds

And none of the 3 possible translations are a word for word. The word sus in Hebrew simply translated means LEAPER, something that leaps, skips and flies. With the predominant idea of something that becomes airborne whether a horse leaping or a bird flying.

First we need to check what the original is, because the translators may not convey the full meaning.
Not sure what your saying here athenasius.
Simply that the same Hebrew word SHOAH they use in Israel and around the world as their name in Hebrew for the Holocaust is that same word that Ezekiel uses in that passage. It's a storm alright, but not the usual kind. This type of storm that Ezekiel references is one that causes tremendous loss of life. So it's the difference between a rainshower and a massive destructive hurricane or super tornado devastating all in it's path.
 

athenasius

Well-Known Member
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