twerpv
Well-Known Member
This has probably been asked and answered before. Are we to assume that the Leviathan that is described in Job is what we would associate with a dragon?
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In Job when God is speaking about His creatures, he mentions Leviathan and describes what we would understand to be a crocodile. However, some other references to Leviathan are imposed in the poetic structure as a mythical dragon while at the same time hinting at the real enemy the dragon Satan. That's the thing about God's word - He superimposes double meanings while conveying a central message. Very remarkable - that's what trips up unbelievers. They'll think they know something when they don't at all because it's hidden to them.
With all due respect, your answer makes no sense to me.
From Job 41:18-21
18 Its snorting throws out flashes of light;
its eyes are like the rays of dawn.
19 Flames stream from its mouth;
sparks of fire shoot out.
20 Smoke pours from its nostrils
as from a boiling pot over burning reeds.
21 Its breath sets coals ablaze,
and flames dart from its mouth.
“Poetic”? “double meanings”?
I think it could have been any of a number of members of the diplodocid family tree.
Look at the whole writing. He states to Job about the creatures He had made. He cites the ostritch which He caused "to forget wisdom." He cites the Hippo which was the first of his creation. Even the bible researchers acknowledge these things. You decide; He's telling Job that he wouldn't want to tackle any of these beasts. Then God starts telling him about the luminaries in the sky and the constellations that were also made by Him. If you like the fire breathing dragon thing, that's fine, but at least look at the whole writing.
Yeah, I was thinking behemoth, I guess. That's what fatigue will do.Behemoth, yes, I fully agreed is a sauropod dinosaur with it's bones like tubes of bronze and limbs like iron (not to mention it's tail that is said to be like a cedar tree), but leviathan is definitely a fire-breathing sea serpent. Im going to assume you just got those two mixed up and then mostly respond to @antitox crocodile statement
Leviathan is called a coiling sea serpent by Isaiah (27:1) while being used as a metaphor for satan (coincidentally right after a verse that really reminds me of the rapture in Isaiah 26... but that's another discussion):
In that day, the LORD will punish with his sword-- his fierce, great and powerful sword-- Leviathan the gliding serpent, Leviathan the coiling serpent; he will slay the monster of the sea.
Before anyone says that the actual creature doesn't exist because it is only a metaphor for Satan... do roaring lions exist, or are they only a metaphor for Satan as well?
1 Peter 5:8 Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour.
There is also the question of why God would need to exaggerate his creation to Job. Does God need to lie about crocodiles breathing fire to make them impressive? They're pretty awesome on their own and definitely point to God's power as creator of all. But let's look at what the bible actually says about leviathan: (job 41)
“Can you pull in Leviathan with a fishhook
or tie down its tongue with a rope?
2 Can you put a cord through its nose
or pierce its jaw with a hook?
3 Will it keep begging you for mercy?
Will it speak to you with gentle words?
4 Will it make an agreement with you
for you to take it as your slave for life?
5 Can you make a pet of it like a bird
or put it on a leash for the young women in your house?
6 Will traders barter for it?
Will they divide it up among the merchants?
7 Can you fill its hide with harpoons
or its head with fishing spears?
8 If you lay a hand on it,
you will remember the struggle and never do it again!
9 Any hope of subduing it is false;
the mere sight of it is overpowering.
10 No one is fierce enough to rouse it.
Who then is able to stand against me?
11 Who has a claim against me that I must pay?
Everything under heaven belongs to me.
12 “I will not fail to speak of Leviathan’s limbs,
its strength and its graceful form.
13 Who can strip off its outer coat?
Who can penetrate its double coat of armor[b]?
14 Who dares open the doors of its mouth,
ringed about with fearsome teeth?
15 Its back has[c] rows of shields
tightly sealed together;
16 each is so close to the next
that no air can pass between.
17 They are joined fast to one another;
they cling together and cannot be parted.
18 Its snorting throws out flashes of light;
its eyes are like the rays of dawn.
19 Flames stream from its mouth;
sparks of fire shoot out.
20 Smoke pours from its nostrils
as from a boiling pot over burning reeds.
21 Its breath sets coals ablaze,
and flames dart from its mouth.
22 Strength resides in its neck;
dismay goes before it.
23 The folds of its flesh are tightly joined;
they are firm and immovable.
24 Its chest is hard as rock,
hard as a lower millstone.
25 When it rises up, the mighty are terrified;
they retreat before its thrashing.
26 The sword that reaches it has no effect,
nor does the spear or the dart or the javelin.
27 Iron it treats like straw
and bronze like rotten wood.
28 Arrows do not make it flee;
slingstones are like chaff to it.
29 A club seems to it but a piece of straw;
it laughs at the rattling of the lance.
30 Its undersides are jagged potsherds,
leaving a trail in the mud like a threshing sledge.
31 It makes the depths churn like a boiling caldron
and stirs up the sea like a pot of ointment.
32 It leaves a glistening wake behind it;
one would think the deep had white hair.
33 Nothing on earth is its equal—
a creature without fear.
34 It looks down on all that are haughty;
it is king over all that are proud.”
I ask if anyone can really say a crocodile fits all these criteria. The only thing I can see that it matches are teeth and thrashing. But even a 3 year old child is ringed with fearsome teeth and likes to thrash. Does that make every child leviathan? Obvious exaggeration aside, like @InsuranceGuy said, crocodiles have dead eyes, not eyes that shine like dawn.
And unless you're quoting that old song about stuffing a gators mouth with canon balls and powdering the other end (down from Mississippi to the gulf of Mexico), they can't really breath smoke or fire, and I can't see what that would even be a metaphor for when it comes to a crocodile
Not to mention that I've watched a ton of videos of Steve Irwin wrestling crocodiles into submission. I also have seen videos of women with alligators/crocodiles as pets. I haven't ever seen a woman with a fire-bresthing sea serpent as a pet before, and I'm willing to bet even Steve Irwin wouldn't have wrestled one.
I think calling it a crocodile originally comes from trying to make the bible fit with evolution the same way calling behemoth a hippo does. Evolution says dinosaurs couldn't have been around when Job was live because they died off millions of years prior, but the bible talks about the flood and animals being preserved on the ark (dinosaurs are animals, right?). Is God too weak to make an animal that can breath fire? Have you seen videos of a bombardier beetle that can spray fire from it's abdomen? I wouldn't say that "nothing on earth is the equal of a crocodile." I've even watched a video of a lion killing one. I would also say you could definitely kill a crocodile with spears.
Let's look at the description of an ostrich in Job the chapter before behemoth:
13 “The wings of the ostrich flap joyfully,
though they cannot compare
with the wings and feathers of the stork.
14 She lays her eggs on the ground
and lets them warm in the sand,
15 unmindful that a foot may crush them,
that some wild animal may trample them.
16 She treats her young harshly, as if they were not hers;
she cares not that her labor was in vain,
17 for God did not endow her with wisdom
or give her a share of good sense.
18 Yet when she spreads her feathers to run,
she laughs at horse and rider.
Should I say that this mythical creature known as an ostrich can't actually exist? No flightless bird could actually outrun a horse. This is an exaggeration talking about the kiwi, which is a small flightless bird capable of running sometimes.
Why can't we just take God's word at face value, and say leviathan really was a strong limbed sea serpent that could breathe fire? There are plenty of reptiles that are distinctly serpent-like and can coil, but neither crocodiles nor alligators can coil. I also just like the idea of the world being sorta magical, being a fantasy nerd. I'd be lying if I said I wouldn't appreciate something like a pet dragon after creation is restored, but that might just be the child in me longing
Look at this description in psalm 104, too
24 How many are your works, Lord!
In wisdom you made them all;
the earth is full of your creatures.
25 There is the sea, vast and spacious,
teeming with creatures beyond number—
living things both large and small.
26 There the ships go to and fro,
and Leviathan, which you formed to frolic there.
Apparently it also likes to have fun and frolic when it isn't striking fear into the hearts of all who are haughty (makes me want one even more). I've never heard of a crocodile frolicking in the ocean before, but I can imagine a sea serpent cresting the waves and going back under, leaving a trail of white behind it. (I also checked the strong's concordance, the hebrew word is the same as in Job, which the definition is only "Serpent, a sea monster or dragon")
I went way more into depth with that than was probably necessary
The point is He's talking about what He created. But it's ok if we disagree.
This has probably been asked and answered before. Are we to assume that the Leviathan that is described in Job is what we would associate with a dragon?
I think your post is interesting, Tristan,but first lets go to Revelation 13 and Read the undeniably the Leviathan, but first lets go to Revelation 13 and Read the scriptures on The Beast of the Sea shall we, lets read Revelation 13:1 first: scriptures on The Beast of the Sea shall we, lets read Revelation 13:1 first: 1. And I stood upon the sand of the sea and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, 1. And I stood upon the sand of the sea and saw a beast rise up out of the sea
It is a sea monster. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LeviathanThis has probably been asked and answered before. Are we to assume that the Leviathan that is described in Job is what we would associate with a dragon?
I think your post is interesting, Tristan,
but could you edit the double sentences out?
It makes for difficult reading right now
not a problemI think your post is interesting, Tristan,
but could you edit the double sentences out?
It makes for difficult reading right now.
Thanks in advance.
in short its a corrupt demonic sea dragonIt is a sea monster. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leviathan