Leviathan from Job

Spartan Sprinter 1

Well-Known Member
Interesting topic, if the bible discusses dragons or more specifically refers to Satan as a dragon and we take the bible literally, I guess you could say dragons are in fact very real, they probably existed in the times of the Nephilim I reckon
 

antitox

Well-Known Member
In Job when God is speaking about His creatures, he mentions Leviathan and describes what we would understand to be a crocodile. However, some other references to Leviathan are imposed in the poetic structure as a mythical dragon while at the same time hinting at the real enemy the dragon Satan. That's the thing about God's word - He superimposes double meanings while conveying a central message. Very remarkable - that's what trips up unbelievers. They'll think they know something when they don't at all because it's hidden to them.
 
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twerpv

Well-Known Member
In Job when God is speaking about His creatures, he mentions Leviathan and describes what we would understand to be a crocodile. However, some other references to Leviathan are imposed in the poetic structure as a mythical dragon while at the same time hinting at the real enemy the dragon Satan. That's the thing about God's word - He superimposes double meanings while conveying a central message. Very remarkable - that's what trips up unbelievers. They'll think they know something when they don't at all because it's hidden to them.
With all due respect, your answer makes no sense to me.

From Job 41:18-21
18 Its snorting throws out flashes of light;
its eyes are like the rays of dawn.
19 Flames stream from its mouth;
sparks of fire shoot out.
20 Smoke pours from its nostrils
as from a boiling pot over burning reeds.
21 Its breath sets coals ablaze,
and flames dart from its mouth.

“Poetic”? “double meanings”?
 

antitox

Well-Known Member
The whole series of statements God was making were about the creatures He created. Nothing wrong with some poetic descriptives. God is the author of prose.
 
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InsuranceGuy

Well-Known Member
With all due respect, your answer makes no sense to me.

From Job 41:18-21
18 Its snorting throws out flashes of light;
its eyes are like the rays of dawn.
19 Flames stream from its mouth;
sparks of fire shoot out.
20 Smoke pours from its nostrils
as from a boiling pot over burning reeds.
21 Its breath sets coals ablaze,
and flames dart from its mouth.

“Poetic”? “double meanings”?
I've always thought of this as a Dragon as well. They are mentioned in so many legends, myths and in historical writings of ancient people. I don't see any reason they couldn't have been real.
Crocodiles have dead eyes, not like the rays of dawn. Never seen one with smoke pouring from its nostrils (I guess a crocodile could be a cigarette smoker?) or one with flames streaming from it's mouth (Ok, I did see one getting cooked once, sorta similar) and I haven't seen one with breath that would set coal ablaze. I guess if it eats enough onions, maybe.....
 

Salluz

Well-Known Member
I think it could have been any of a number of members of the diplodocid family tree.
Behemoth, yes, I fully agreed is a sauropod dinosaur with it's bones like tubes of bronze and limbs like iron (not to mention it's tail that is said to be like a cedar tree), but leviathan is definitely a fire-breathing sea serpent. Im going to assume you just got those two mixed up and then mostly respond to @antitox crocodile statement
Leviathan is called a coiling sea serpent by Isaiah (27:1) while being used as a metaphor for satan (coincidentally right after a verse that really reminds me of the rapture in Isaiah 26... but that's another discussion):

In that day, the LORD will punish with his sword-- his fierce, great and powerful sword-- Leviathan the gliding serpent, Leviathan the coiling serpent; he will slay the monster of the sea.

Before anyone says that the actual creature doesn't exist because it is only a metaphor for Satan... do roaring lions exist, or are they only a metaphor for Satan as well?

1 Peter 5:8 Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour.

There is also the question of why God would need to exaggerate his creation to Job. Does God need to lie about crocodiles breathing fire to make them impressive? They're pretty awesome on their own and definitely point to God's power as creator of all. But let's look at what the bible actually says about leviathan: (job 41)

“Can you pull in Leviathan with a fishhook
or tie down its tongue with a rope?
2 Can you put a cord through its nose
or pierce its jaw with a hook?
3 Will it keep begging you for mercy?
Will it speak to you with gentle words?
4 Will it make an agreement with you
for you to take it as your slave for life?
5 Can you make a pet of it like a bird
or put it on a leash for the young women in your house?

6 Will traders barter for it?
Will they divide it up among the merchants?
7 Can you fill its hide with harpoons
or its head with fishing spears?
8 If you lay a hand on it,
you will remember the struggle and never do it again!
9 Any hope of subduing it is false;
the mere sight of it is overpowering.
10 No one is fierce enough to rouse it.
Who then is able to stand against me?

11 Who has a claim against me that I must pay?
Everything under heaven belongs to me.
12 “I will not fail to speak of Leviathan’s limbs,
its strength and its graceful form.
13 Who can strip off its outer coat?
Who can penetrate its double coat of armor[b]?
14 Who dares open the doors of its mouth,
ringed about with fearsome teeth?
15 Its back has[c] rows of shields
tightly sealed together;
16 each is so close to the next
that no air can pass between.
17 They are joined fast to one another;
they cling together and cannot be parted.
18 Its snorting throws out flashes of light;
its eyes are like the rays of dawn.
19 Flames stream from its mouth;
sparks of fire shoot out.
20 Smoke pours from its nostrils
as from a boiling pot over burning reeds.
21 Its breath sets coals ablaze,
and flames dart from its mouth.
22 Strength resides in its neck;
dismay goes before it.
23 The folds of its flesh are tightly joined;
they are firm and immovable.
24 Its chest is hard as rock,
hard as a lower millstone.
25 When it rises up, the mighty are terrified;
they retreat before its thrashing.
26 The sword that reaches it has no effect,
nor does the spear or the dart or the javelin.
27 Iron it treats like straw
and bronze like rotten wood.
28 Arrows do not make it flee;
slingstones are like chaff to it.
29 A club seems to it but a piece of straw;
it laughs at the rattling of the lance.
30 Its undersides are jagged potsherds,
leaving a trail in the mud like a threshing sledge.
31 It makes the depths churn like a boiling caldron
and stirs up the sea like a pot of ointment.
32 It leaves a glistening wake behind it;
one would think the deep had white hair.
33 Nothing on earth is its equal—
a creature without fear.
34 It looks down on all that are haughty;
it is king over all that are proud.”


I ask if anyone can really say a crocodile fits all these criteria. The only thing I can see that it matches are teeth and thrashing. But even a 3 year old child is ringed with fearsome teeth and likes to thrash. Does that make every child leviathan? Obvious exaggeration aside, like @InsuranceGuy said, crocodiles have dead eyes, not eyes that shine like dawn.

And unless you're quoting that old song about stuffing a gators mouth with canon balls and powdering the other end (down from Mississippi to the gulf of Mexico), they can't really breath smoke or fire, and I can't see what that would even be a metaphor for when it comes to a crocodile

Not to mention that I've watched a ton of videos of Steve Irwin wrestling crocodiles into submission. I also have seen videos of women with alligators/crocodiles as pets. I haven't ever seen a woman with a fire-bresthing sea serpent as a pet before, and I'm willing to bet even Steve Irwin wouldn't have wrestled one.

I think calling it a crocodile originally comes from trying to make the bible fit with evolution the same way calling behemoth a hippo does. Evolution says dinosaurs couldn't have been around when Job was live because they died off millions of years prior, but the bible talks about the flood and animals being preserved on the ark (dinosaurs are animals, right?). Is God too weak to make an animal that can breath fire? Have you seen videos of a bombardier beetle that can spray fire from it's abdomen? I wouldn't say that "nothing on earth is the equal of a crocodile." I've even watched a video of a lion killing one. I would also say you could definitely kill a crocodile with spears.

Let's look at the description of an ostrich in Job the chapter before behemoth:

13 “The wings of the ostrich flap joyfully,
though they cannot compare
with the wings and feathers of the stork.
14 She lays her eggs on the ground
and lets them warm in the sand,
15 unmindful that a foot may crush them,
that some wild animal may trample them.
16 She treats her young harshly, as if they were not hers;
she cares not that her labor was in vain,
17 for God did not endow her with wisdom
or give her a share of good sense.
18 Yet when she spreads her feathers to run,
she laughs at horse and rider.

Should I say that this mythical creature known as an ostrich can't actually exist? No flightless bird could actually outrun a horse. This is an exaggeration talking about the kiwi, which is a small flightless bird capable of running sometimes.

Why can't we just take God's word at face value, and say leviathan really was a strong limbed sea serpent that could breathe fire? There are plenty of reptiles that are distinctly serpent-like and can coil, but neither crocodiles nor alligators can coil. I also just like the idea of the world being sorta magical, being a fantasy nerd. I'd be lying if I said I wouldn't appreciate something like a pet dragon after creation is restored, but that might just be the child in me longing :lol

Look at this description in psalm 104, too


24 How many are your works, Lord!
In wisdom you made them all;
the earth is full of your creatures.
25 There is the sea, vast and spacious,
teeming with creatures beyond number—
living things both large and small.
26 There the ships go to and fro,
and Leviathan, which you formed to frolic there.

Apparently it also likes to have fun and frolic when it isn't striking fear into the hearts of all who are haughty (makes me want one even more). I've never heard of a crocodile frolicking in the ocean before, but I can imagine a sea serpent cresting the waves and going back under, leaving a trail of white behind it. (I also checked the strong's concordance, the hebrew word is the same as in Job, which the definition is only "Serpent, a sea monster or dragon")

I went way more into depth with that than was probably necessary
 

antitox

Well-Known Member
Look at the whole writing. He states to Job about the creatures He had made. He cites the ostritch which He caused "to forget wisdom." He cites the Hippo which was the first of his creation. Even the bible researchers acknowledge these things. You decide; He's telling Job that he wouldn't want to tackle any of these beasts. Then God starts telling him about the luminaries in the sky and the constellations that were also made by Him. If you like the fire breathing dragon thing, that's fine, but at least look at the whole writing.
 
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Salluz

Well-Known Member
Look at the whole writing. He states to Job about the creatures He had made. He cites the ostritch which He caused "to forget wisdom." He cites the Hippo which was the first of his creation. Even the bible researchers acknowledge these things. You decide; He's telling Job that he wouldn't want to tackle any of these beasts. Then God starts telling him about the luminaries in the sky and the constellations that were also made by Him. If you like the fire breathing dragon thing, that's fine, but at least look at the whole writing.
I've read all of Job. I don't understand what point you're trying to make. God is telling Job about the things he has created. I'm saying God had to have made a sea serpent, and that whatever bible commentators say crocodiles can breathe fire are wrong. I'll take scripture at face value.

I also think the behemoth passage is a sauropod dinosaur like previously stated. Hippos can't stiffen their tails to be like cedar trees

16 Look at the strength of his loins
and the power in the muscles of his belly.
17 He stiffens his tail like a cedar tree;
the tendons of his thighs are woven firmly together.
18 His bones are bronze tubes;
his limbs are like iron rods.
19 He is the foremost of God’s works;
only his Maker can draw the sword against him.

The only thing I can think of with a tail like a cedar tree is a dinosaur. Hippo tails are all floppy and small
 

Steve53

Well-Known Member
Behemoth, yes, I fully agreed is a sauropod dinosaur with it's bones like tubes of bronze and limbs like iron (not to mention it's tail that is said to be like a cedar tree), but leviathan is definitely a fire-breathing sea serpent. Im going to assume you just got those two mixed up and then mostly respond to @antitox crocodile statement
Leviathan is called a coiling sea serpent by Isaiah (27:1) while being used as a metaphor for satan (coincidentally right after a verse that really reminds me of the rapture in Isaiah 26... but that's another discussion):

In that day, the LORD will punish with his sword-- his fierce, great and powerful sword-- Leviathan the gliding serpent, Leviathan the coiling serpent; he will slay the monster of the sea.

Before anyone says that the actual creature doesn't exist because it is only a metaphor for Satan... do roaring lions exist, or are they only a metaphor for Satan as well?

1 Peter 5:8 Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour.

There is also the question of why God would need to exaggerate his creation to Job. Does God need to lie about crocodiles breathing fire to make them impressive? They're pretty awesome on their own and definitely point to God's power as creator of all. But let's look at what the bible actually says about leviathan: (job 41)

“Can you pull in Leviathan with a fishhook
or tie down its tongue with a rope?
2 Can you put a cord through its nose
or pierce its jaw with a hook?
3 Will it keep begging you for mercy?
Will it speak to you with gentle words?
4 Will it make an agreement with you
for you to take it as your slave for life?
5 Can you make a pet of it like a bird
or put it on a leash for the young women in your house?

6 Will traders barter for it?
Will they divide it up among the merchants?
7 Can you fill its hide with harpoons
or its head with fishing spears?
8 If you lay a hand on it,
you will remember the struggle and never do it again!
9 Any hope of subduing it is false;
the mere sight of it is overpowering.
10 No one is fierce enough to rouse it.
Who then is able to stand against me?

11 Who has a claim against me that I must pay?
Everything under heaven belongs to me.
12 “I will not fail to speak of Leviathan’s limbs,
its strength and its graceful form.
13 Who can strip off its outer coat?
Who can penetrate its double coat of armor[b]?
14 Who dares open the doors of its mouth,
ringed about with fearsome teeth?
15 Its back has[c] rows of shields
tightly sealed together;
16 each is so close to the next
that no air can pass between.
17 They are joined fast to one another;
they cling together and cannot be parted.
18 Its snorting throws out flashes of light;
its eyes are like the rays of dawn.
19 Flames stream from its mouth;
sparks of fire shoot out.
20 Smoke pours from its nostrils
as from a boiling pot over burning reeds.
21 Its breath sets coals ablaze,
and flames dart from its mouth.
22 Strength resides in its neck;
dismay goes before it.
23 The folds of its flesh are tightly joined;
they are firm and immovable.
24 Its chest is hard as rock,
hard as a lower millstone.
25 When it rises up, the mighty are terrified;
they retreat before its thrashing.
26 The sword that reaches it has no effect,
nor does the spear or the dart or the javelin.
27 Iron it treats like straw
and bronze like rotten wood.
28 Arrows do not make it flee;
slingstones are like chaff to it.
29 A club seems to it but a piece of straw;
it laughs at the rattling of the lance.
30 Its undersides are jagged potsherds,
leaving a trail in the mud like a threshing sledge.
31 It makes the depths churn like a boiling caldron
and stirs up the sea like a pot of ointment.
32 It leaves a glistening wake behind it;
one would think the deep had white hair.
33 Nothing on earth is its equal—
a creature without fear.
34 It looks down on all that are haughty;
it is king over all that are proud.”


I ask if anyone can really say a crocodile fits all these criteria. The only thing I can see that it matches are teeth and thrashing. But even a 3 year old child is ringed with fearsome teeth and likes to thrash. Does that make every child leviathan? Obvious exaggeration aside, like @InsuranceGuy said, crocodiles have dead eyes, not eyes that shine like dawn.

And unless you're quoting that old song about stuffing a gators mouth with canon balls and powdering the other end (down from Mississippi to the gulf of Mexico), they can't really breath smoke or fire, and I can't see what that would even be a metaphor for when it comes to a crocodile

Not to mention that I've watched a ton of videos of Steve Irwin wrestling crocodiles into submission. I also have seen videos of women with alligators/crocodiles as pets. I haven't ever seen a woman with a fire-bresthing sea serpent as a pet before, and I'm willing to bet even Steve Irwin wouldn't have wrestled one.

I think calling it a crocodile originally comes from trying to make the bible fit with evolution the same way calling behemoth a hippo does. Evolution says dinosaurs couldn't have been around when Job was live because they died off millions of years prior, but the bible talks about the flood and animals being preserved on the ark (dinosaurs are animals, right?). Is God too weak to make an animal that can breath fire? Have you seen videos of a bombardier beetle that can spray fire from it's abdomen? I wouldn't say that "nothing on earth is the equal of a crocodile." I've even watched a video of a lion killing one. I would also say you could definitely kill a crocodile with spears.

Let's look at the description of an ostrich in Job the chapter before behemoth:

13 “The wings of the ostrich flap joyfully,
though they cannot compare
with the wings and feathers of the stork.
14 She lays her eggs on the ground
and lets them warm in the sand,
15 unmindful that a foot may crush them,
that some wild animal may trample them.
16 She treats her young harshly, as if they were not hers;
she cares not that her labor was in vain,
17 for God did not endow her with wisdom
or give her a share of good sense.
18 Yet when she spreads her feathers to run,
she laughs at horse and rider.

Should I say that this mythical creature known as an ostrich can't actually exist? No flightless bird could actually outrun a horse. This is an exaggeration talking about the kiwi, which is a small flightless bird capable of running sometimes.

Why can't we just take God's word at face value, and say leviathan really was a strong limbed sea serpent that could breathe fire? There are plenty of reptiles that are distinctly serpent-like and can coil, but neither crocodiles nor alligators can coil. I also just like the idea of the world being sorta magical, being a fantasy nerd. I'd be lying if I said I wouldn't appreciate something like a pet dragon after creation is restored, but that might just be the child in me longing :lol

Look at this description in psalm 104, too


24 How many are your works, Lord!
In wisdom you made them all;
the earth is full of your creatures.
25 There is the sea, vast and spacious,
teeming with creatures beyond number—
living things both large and small.
26 There the ships go to and fro,
and Leviathan, which you formed to frolic there.

Apparently it also likes to have fun and frolic when it isn't striking fear into the hearts of all who are haughty (makes me want one even more). I've never heard of a crocodile frolicking in the ocean before, but I can imagine a sea serpent cresting the waves and going back under, leaving a trail of white behind it. (I also checked the strong's concordance, the hebrew word is the same as in Job, which the definition is only "Serpent, a sea monster or dragon")

I went way more into depth with that than was probably necessary
Yeah, I was thinking behemoth, I guess. That's what fatigue will do.

Nice write up on leviathan though we'll likely never know what the creature actually was.
 

Salluz

Well-Known Member
The point is He's talking about what He created. But it's ok if we disagree.
You're 100% right it's okay if we disagree. My second message was too sassy--sorry

I was saying God was talking about things he created too, and I include dinosaurs and the fire-breathing sea serpent in the things God created. We have fossils to show us dinosaurs existed, but even though we don't have any leviathan fossils that I'm aware of, I'm just going to take the bible at face value and say it was out there frolicking in the waves as God was talking about the things he created to Job. I couldn't tell you if any are still alive, probably not, actually, but it doesn't mean there weren't any back then. Know what I mean? Anyways sorry again for getting too heated there and thanks for not throwing it back at me. God bless
 

Tristan

Member
This has probably been asked and answered before. Are we to assume that the Leviathan that is described in Job is what we would associate with a dragon?
Salluz to answer alot of questions about the Leviathan, absolutely Yes, the Bible makes it clear in Revelation as well as other facts that the Leviathan is apart of the Endtimes, in so many ways than most people realize and that the Greek and Persian Mythos of hybrid creatures are connected to Ancient Biblical creatures that are suppose to appear in the Great Tribulation, for example lets start with the Leviathan as I will
point out has a lot to do with his involvement in Greek Mythos and Endtime Bible Prophecy:

in greek mythos the hydra was a monster of multiple heads and when someone cut off one head it miraculously healed again, remember that?
Look how this intertwine, here is Revelation 13:3 - And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. Next, I will go to the next verse where it said the leviathan has more than one head, just like the multi-headed hydra.

Psalms 74:13 -14
13 Thou didst divide the sea by thy strength: thou brakest the heads of the dragons in the waters.
14 Thou brakest the heads of leviathan in pieces, and gavest him to be meat to the people inhabiting the wilderness.

And to top it all off..... the verse where it connects the Beast of the sea is in fact the Dragon of the Sea, that being the Leviathan

Leviathan (Lotan) the Dragon of the Sea
- Isaiah 27:1 King James Version (KJV)
In that day the Lord with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish
leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and
he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea.


The Beast of the Sea, Leviathan.
- Revelation 13:3 King James Version (KJV)
And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten
crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

As the Bible stated The Beast of the Sea has seven-heads (7-heads), and this beast is mentioned to be a red dragon with 7 heads in Revelation 12:3 of which also to my understanding that the ten horns would be 1 horn each for the leviathan heads and the seventh one would carry a total of four horns for it which proves that greek mythos was derived from the Bible fact.


Lernaean Hydra in Greek Mythos is comparable to the description of the Leviathan of the Old Testament Psalms 74:14
Psalms 74:13-14 - “Thou didst divide the sea by thy strength: thou brakest the heads of the dragons in the waters.” Thou brakest the heads of leviathan in pieces, Compare these two verses Revelation 13:3 and Psalms 74:13-14 then one will see they mean one entity, the Leviathan itself.



- THIS WAS MY ANALYSIS THAT BROUGHT ME TO THE CONCLUSION THAT REVELATION WAS TALKING ABOUT, THE LEVIATHAN.
Now then lets begin with the lessons on the Scripture as pertains to the Beast of the Sea in Revelation 13 to confirm that the Beast of the Sea is undeniably the Leviathan, but first, lets read Revelation 13:1 - 1. And I stood upon the sand of the sea and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns…..….. Now then, in scripture, there is no proof in any way shape or form did the scriptures ever said the sand of the sea was anything Political related or dealing with a nation’s politics, it was speaking just as it said, sand of the sea”, so in short, the verse was meaning a Seashore or a Beach belonging to a body of water, tied into Biblical Scriptures and there are a couple of seas to a body of water, tied into Biblical Scriptures For example, Sea of Galilee, Red Sea, Dead Sea and the Great Sea. Next, John the Revelator said he saw, ”a beast rise up out of the sea having seven-heads and ten horns”, now take into account, we do not have an animal of that nature in the sea moving about at this given moment in this Modern Age, Next, the seven-headed mystery: Revelation 12:3 said,, “….Behold, a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns…. so Revelation 12:3 clearly states that this seven-headed mystery, is a giant seven-headed red dragon residing in a large body of water, that is regarded as a sea, so then, here is my next question, what did the Bible called this seven-headed red dragon of the sea that leaves so many people baffled? Again, lets go to the scriptures, but this time in the Old Testament of Isaiah 27:1 now then lets read, “ In that day the Lord with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan, the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea.
And here is another fact that it was the Lord who laid waste to the Leviathan until the time is to come for him to return again, Revelation 13:3, And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death and his deadly wound was healed and all the world wondered after the Beast. Cross reference it with Psalms 74:12-14, , For God is my King of old, working salvation in the Midst of the Earth. Thou didst divide the sea by thy strength: thou brakest the heads of the dragons in the waters. Thou brakest the heads of leviathan in pieces and gavest him to be meat to the people inhabiting the wilderness. As you can see it was by the hand and sword of God Almighty that crippled the leviathan.
 
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Kaatje

Well-Known Member
but first lets go to Revelation 13 and Read the undeniably the Leviathan, but first lets go to Revelation 13 and Read the scriptures on The Beast of the Sea shall we, lets read Revelation 13:1 first: scriptures on The Beast of the Sea shall we, lets read Revelation 13:1 first: 1. And I stood upon the sand of the sea and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, 1. And I stood upon the sand of the sea and saw a beast rise up out of the sea
I think your post is interesting, Tristan,
but could you edit the double sentences out?
It makes for difficult reading right now.
Thanks in advance.
 

JSTyler

Well-Known Member
Old thread I missed but fun!

I have no valuable or authoritative opinion to offer other than my fee-fees...

That said, I want it to be a dragon. A big fire breathing, monstrous wingspan, scaly hide, dragon, you know the sort, the whole gamut snout to tail kind of dragon. I also hope it's one of the creatures of the Kingdom (talkin' Millennial here) and beyond. I wanna fly on one, me and my wife (my not-wife in the yet to come), my Heavenly-perfect pack of undying dogs and together we'll light out for the horizon with whoever else has a companion dragon. We're gonna explore eternity and see the wonder Yeshua has prepared for us to find.

Oh yeah and black, it's gonna be black and shiny...unless dragons come in traditional camo which means I may need at least two dragons.
 
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