Legalism guidance and a tragic outcome

glc11

Well-Known Member
This one is very upsetting to me. Here is a link to the article since I know we are not supposed to mention this person's name on here. It brings back bad memories of my old church that has pastors who learned under this person (graduates of the university) and source this person as a Bible expert.

:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::cry:cry:cry:cry:cry:cry:cry:cry:cry

https://julieroys.com/macarthur-sha...R9z1-sHqKh1rcSCSqAUZEPPXLS6u_cQDS6_9JEjymMbPc

Chris, please delete if not allowed. I'm sorry...... it's just very upsetting and I wanted to share it with all of you.
 

Everlasting Life

Through Faith in Jesus
It brings back bad memories of my old church...


glc11, :hug I'm so sorry for the pain you've endured. :hug This story must have been difficult to read and brought up some tough things yourself. I always struggled reading stories like this myself. :sad

Spiritual abuse can be one of the most damaging things a person can have happen to them. :sad I grew up in a cult where there was much control, abuse and steeped in legalism that took me quite awhile to heal from myself. People were certainly overly controlled in regards to their marriages, what to eat, and then victims of horrible abuse were often blamed rather than the abusers being held accountable for their behaviors. Not to mention some in leadership guilty of egregious abuse themselves.

The biggest thing that brought healing for me was reading God's word for myself and taking in the whole counsel of God and letting His word work towards the renewing of my mind that really brought healing for me. I also had to really step away from relationships that were not healthy. There's a book called 'Boundaries' by Townsend and Cloud that really helped me with this. It's written by two Christian authors who showcase biblical boundaries and how to apply them in one's life.

The article touched on the subject of forgiveness. I think there can be a lot of confusion about this. You know, what I've learned about forgiveness is that while it's true that to forgive helps that person who's holding onto anger the most (letting go of vengeance and letting God take care of things), this NEVER means that trust is always automatically given again. There are situations where that just has to be earned back. So, in some cases Christian counseling, pastoral counseling and even attending anger management classes is a great way to build in accountability and rebuild trust with an abusive relationship. And, from there it may come out that there's a medical condition which is exasperating the situation. Another words, what didn't work in the past shouldn't be returned to but rather biblical actions to make changes or discover necessary information to help must happen for relationship to flourish again.

In some cases, trust can never be given again.....yes, forgiveness to release the victim from continued burdens but trust cannot be given again. For instance with those who've sexually abused children and even in too many cases, those who've abused children in other ways. Or those who've suffered because of a rape.

The adage of forgive and forget is not always applicable. If one forgot about one who engaged in child abuse (who may still be at large, claim repentance- which may or may not be so - and for some reason has not been held accountable with the law) and therefore thinks that all should be forgotten and thus children are now safe to be in their presence, well that would be unwise.....like a parent who sexually abused their child and wants access to grandchildren. While there may be forgiveness, forgetting is foolish for the simple matter that there must be prudence to make room to protect others and keep from further temptations.

While it's important that married couples do all they can to save a marriage that cannot be at the expense of physical safety and at at times verbal/psychological safety as physical abuse often comes right at the heals of this kind of stuff. To often biblical platitudes are simply used as a means to avoid accountability (and hold others accountable in a loving, biblical manner) or there are those who are not fully alert to the need for holding an abuser accountable and how to do this.

I believe that 1 Corinthians 5:11 can apply and it's reasonable for there to be a separation until there has been some sort of accountability program in place, ample time to show changed behavior (not words, words are cheap in these situations), new plans of biblically supported plans of actions when there may be danger of a previously abusive person losing it and continued support groups of some sort to help with new learned behavior in practice that's much healthier.

Forgiveness does not always mean that relationship is to continue either. Those are two different matters. And even if there is continued relationship that has to have certain parameters of boundaries. For instance, one struggling with alcoholism would not be a good person for rides to the store, etc. Healthy relationships have healthy boundaries.

God's Word has lots of boundaries. In the new Testament there's quite a few "stay away from people like that" passages to delineate boundaries for a Christian....this was very helpful to me!

I think that there are churches, unfortunately who struggle with applying biblical boundaries properly and in a way that's filled with grace, compassion and ways of restoration (whenever possible) for all involved.

At any rate, I thought I'd respond a bit about this in hopes of being helpful to anyone reading and like you struggling with this story. There's lots of great threads on RF about anger, forgiveness and healing if you do a search for 'boundaries' and 'forgiveness' that you might find helpful.

But most of all I responded to say, I understand where you are coming from and I'm sorry that you suffered spiritual abuse. :hug

:pray ing that the Lord continue to bring a healing peace to your heart and His comfort. He surely is not happy with spiritual abuse either....after all, He had some pretty tough words directed at the Pharisees and Sadducees of His day, those who were outwardly religious but causing great spiritual harm to others. :sad
 

alisani

Well-Known Member
glc11, :hug I'm so sorry for the pain you've endured. :hug This story must have been difficult to read and brought up some tough things yourself. I always struggled reading stories like this myself. :sad

Spiritual abuse can be one of the most damaging things a person can have happen to them. :sad I grew up in a cult where there was much control, abuse and steeped in legalism that took me quite awhile to heal from myself. People were certainly overly controlled in regards to their marriages, what to eat, and then victims of horrible abuse were often blamed rather than the abusers being held accountable for their behaviors. Not to mention some in leadership guilty of egregious abuse themselves.

The biggest thing that brought healing for me was reading God's word for myself and taking in the whole counsel of God and letting His word work towards the renewing of my mind that really brought healing for me. I also had to really step away from relationships that were not healthy. There's a book called 'Boundaries' by Townsend and Cloud that really helped me with this. It's written by two Christian authors who showcase biblical boundaries and how to apply them in one's life.

The article touched on the subject of forgiveness. I think there can be a lot of confusion about this. You know, what I've learned about forgiveness is that while it's true that to forgive helps that person who's holding onto anger the most (letting go of vengeance and letting God take care of things), this NEVER means that trust is always automatically given again. There are situations where that just has to be earned back. So, in some cases Christian counseling, pastoral counseling and even attending anger management classes is a great way to build in accountability and rebuild trust with an abusive relationship. And, from there it may come out that there's a medical condition which is exasperating the situation. Another words, what didn't work in the past shouldn't be returned to but rather biblical actions to make changes or discover necessary information to help must happen for relationship to flourish again.

In some cases, trust can never be given again.....yes, forgiveness to release the victim from continued burdens but trust cannot be given again. For instance with those who've sexually abused children and even in too many cases, those who've abused children in other ways. Or those who've suffered because of a rape.

The adage of forgive and forget is not always applicable. If one forgot about one who engaged in child abuse (who may still be at large, claim repentance- which may or may not be so - and for some reason has not been held accountable with the law) and therefore thinks that all should be forgotten and thus children are now safe to be in their presence, well that would be unwise.....like a parent who sexually abused their child and wants access to grandchildren. While there may be forgiveness, forgetting is foolish for the simple matter that there must be prudence to make room to protect others and keep from further temptations.

While it's important that married couples do all they can to save a marriage that cannot be at the expense of physical safety and at at times verbal/psychological safety as physical abuse often comes right at the heals of this kind of stuff. To often biblical platitudes are simply used as a means to avoid accountability (and hold others accountable in a loving, biblical manner) or there are those who are not fully alert to the need for holding an abuser accountable and how to do this.

I believe that 1 Corinthians 5:11 can apply and it's reasonable for there to be a separation until there has been some sort of accountability program in place, ample time to show changed behavior (not words, words are cheap in these situations), new plans of biblically supported plans of actions when there may be danger of a previously abusive person losing it and continued support groups of some sort to help with new learned behavior in practice that's much healthier.

Forgiveness does not always mean that relationship is to continue either. Those are two different matters. And even if there is continued relationship that has to have certain parameters of boundaries. For instance, one struggling with alcoholism would not be a good person for rides to the store, etc. Healthy relationships have healthy boundaries.

God's Word has lots of boundaries. In the new Testament there's quite a few "stay away from people like that" passages to delineate boundaries for a Christian....this was very helpful to me!

I think that there are churches, unfortunately who struggle with applying biblical boundaries properly and in a way that's filled with grace, compassion and ways of restoration (whenever possible) for all involved.

At any rate, I thought I'd respond a bit about this in hopes of being helpful to anyone reading and like you struggling with this story. There's lots of great threads on RF about anger, forgiveness and healing if you do a search for 'boundaries' and 'forgiveness' that you might find helpful.

But most of all I responded to say, I understand where you are coming from and I'm sorry that you suffered spiritual abuse. :hug

:pray ing that the Lord continue to bring a healing peace to your heart and His comfort. He surely is not happy with spiritual abuse either....after all, He had some pretty tough words directed at the Pharisees and Sadducees of His day, those who were outwardly religious but causing great spiritual harm to others. :sad
Bless you and @glc11, I will pray for you both. EL, what a testimony you have and this post is one of the most God-beautiful things, apart from the Word, that I have read in some time. Thank you so much for sharing. And as a PS, I also highly recommend the Boundaries book.
 

glc11

Well-Known Member
glc11, :hug I'm so sorry for the pain you've endured. :hug This story must have been difficult to read and brought up some tough things yourself. I always struggled reading stories like this myself. :sad

Spiritual abuse can be one of the most damaging things a person can have happen to them. :sad I grew up in a cult where there was much control, abuse and steeped in legalism that took me quite awhile to heal from myself. People were certainly overly controlled in regards to their marriages, what to eat, and then victims of horrible abuse were often blamed rather than the abusers being held accountable for their behaviors. Not to mention some in leadership guilty of egregious abuse themselves.

The biggest thing that brought healing for me was reading God's word for myself and taking in the whole counsel of God and letting His word work towards the renewing of my mind that really brought healing for me. I also had to really step away from relationships that were not healthy. There's a book called 'Boundaries' by Townsend and Cloud that really helped me with this. It's written by two Christian authors who showcase biblical boundaries and how to apply them in one's life.

The article touched on the subject of forgiveness. I think there can be a lot of confusion about this. You know, what I've learned about forgiveness is that while it's true that to forgive helps that person who's holding onto anger the most (letting go of vengeance and letting God take care of things), this NEVER means that trust is always automatically given again. There are situations where that just has to be earned back. So, in some cases Christian counseling, pastoral counseling and even attending anger management classes is a great way to build in accountability and rebuild trust with an abusive relationship. And, from there it may come out that there's a medical condition which is exasperating the situation. Another words, what didn't work in the past shouldn't be returned to but rather biblical actions to make changes or discover necessary information to help must happen for relationship to flourish again.

In some cases, trust can never be given again.....yes, forgiveness to release the victim from continued burdens but trust cannot be given again. For instance with those who've sexually abused children and even in too many cases, those who've abused children in other ways. Or those who've suffered because of a rape.

The adage of forgive and forget is not always applicable. If one forgot about one who engaged in child abuse (who may still be at large, claim repentance- which may or may not be so - and for some reason has not been held accountable with the law) and therefore thinks that all should be forgotten and thus children are now safe to be in their presence, well that would be unwise.....like a parent who sexually abused their child and wants access to grandchildren. While there may be forgiveness, forgetting is foolish for the simple matter that there must be prudence to make room to protect others and keep from further temptations.

While it's important that married couples do all they can to save a marriage that cannot be at the expense of physical safety and at at times verbal/psychological safety as physical abuse often comes right at the heals of this kind of stuff. To often biblical platitudes are simply used as a means to avoid accountability (and hold others accountable in a loving, biblical manner) or there are those who are not fully alert to the need for holding an abuser accountable and how to do this.

I believe that 1 Corinthians 5:11 can apply and it's reasonable for there to be a separation until there has been some sort of accountability program in place, ample time to show changed behavior (not words, words are cheap in these situations), new plans of biblically supported plans of actions when there may be danger of a previously abusive person losing it and continued support groups of some sort to help with new learned behavior in practice that's much healthier.

Forgiveness does not always mean that relationship is to continue either. Those are two different matters. And even if there is continued relationship that has to have certain parameters of boundaries. For instance, one struggling with alcoholism would not be a good person for rides to the store, etc. Healthy relationships have healthy boundaries.

God's Word has lots of boundaries. In the new Testament there's quite a few "stay away from people like that" passages to delineate boundaries for a Christian....this was very helpful to me!

I think that there are churches, unfortunately who struggle with applying biblical boundaries properly and in a way that's filled with grace, compassion and ways of restoration (whenever possible) for all involved.

At any rate, I thought I'd respond a bit about this in hopes of being helpful to anyone reading and like you struggling with this story. There's lots of great threads on RF about anger, forgiveness and healing if you do a search for 'boundaries' and 'forgiveness' that you might find helpful.

But most of all I responded to say, I understand where you are coming from and I'm sorry that you suffered spiritual abuse. :hug

:pray ing that the Lord continue to bring a healing peace to your heart and His comfort. He surely is not happy with spiritual abuse either....after all, He had some pretty tough words directed at the Pharisees and Sadducees of His day, those who were outwardly religious but causing great spiritual harm to others. :sad
You are an Angel! Thank you for this. I am so sorry about your hurt as well. Thank you for your advice on how to obtain healing and about boundaries.
I need to pray and think more about things I could do better in regards to that.
 

Lynn

Longing for Home
This guy is one of the worst types of apostates. A pharisee of protestants, a Calvinist and legalist. The name of his church is ironic. Some of his teachings may be good but like Jesus said, a little leaven will leaven the whole loaf. Baby Christians beware!
Wish someone had said this to me 38 years ago. I was a new Christian, and a very new acquaintance of mine shared some sermon tapes of his with me. Since he explained the error of charismatic teachings so well (talked about Greek words and all), I thought I'd found a great new Bible teacher, and he was on the radio every day, too! I couldn't believe my good fortune. :mazy
 

Matthew6:33

Withstand in the evil day. Eph 6:13
Wish someone had said this to me 38 years ago. I was a new Christian, and a very new acquaintance of mine shared some sermon tapes of his with me. Since he explained the error of charismatic teachings so well (talked about Greek words and all), I thought I'd found a great new Bible teacher, and he was on the radio every day, too! I couldn't believe my good fortune. :mazy
I remember when I was exploring Christianity before I truly believed. The devil had buddhists, sociologists, self helpers, 7th day adventist, etc. All around me in my life. I eventually ended up in a charismatic calvary church in the process (no one knew at the time) of being taken over by Hillsong and cast out of calvary. Thankfully I got saved despite all these road blocks. Yes, we each have our road to travel!
 

my2babysmama

Well-Known Member
About ten years ago I bought a study Bible written by him. I overlook his comments about election, and I have many notes that I have put in it. I love that Bible, even though it is falling apart. This article is very disturbing. If I had known about it back then, I would not have bought the Bible. Should I get a new one?
 

Epieikes

Well-Known Member
About ten years ago I bought a study Bible written by him. I overlook his comments about election, and I have many notes that I have put in it. I love that Bible, even though it is falling apart. This article is very disturbing. If I had known about it back then, I would not have bought the Bible. Should I get a new one?
I think it depends upon whether or not the memories connected with your present one impede your quiet times and prayer life. Now that you said that it's falling apart...there might be many reasons to get a fresh start on a new one. I used to hate retiring "marked up Bibles" because of the memories attached of what God was doing in that season. Now, I shelve them with my prayer journals for easy reference but love having a fresh start since He is always up to something new...
 

Lynn

Longing for Home
About ten years ago I bought a study Bible written by him. I overlook his comments about election, and I have many notes that I have put in it. I love that Bible, even though it is falling apart. This article is very disturbing. If I had known about it back then, I would not have bought the Bible. Should I get a new one?
I would suggest that you do. Study Bibles are expensive, so you may want to take your time and carefully research the beliefs of the main editor. Dr. Andy Woods recommends a Charles Ryrie study Bible. I personally have a Hebrew Greek study Bible edited by the late Spiro Zodiates, a Greek man. It has limited Strong Concordance helps in the back and it is published in KJV, NIV, NASB.
 

Matthew6:33

Withstand in the evil day. Eph 6:13
I had actually never considered that JM may be an apostate :scratch
False teachings yes, but does everyone think he is unsaved/unbeliever ??
The Lord only truly knows but ask yourself what type of Jesus is he following? Not sure it is the same one in the Bible.
 

Amethyst

Angie ... †
The Lord only truly knows but ask yourself what type of Jesus is he following? Not sure it is the same one in the Bible.
I understand what you’re saying in terms of the false teaching
But if someone believes Christ died for their sins and rose to give them new life, are they not born again…
Unless he believes what some Calvinist *may* believe in that works contribute to their salvation
 

Lynn

Longing for Home
I had actually never considered that JM may be an apostate :scratch
False teachings yes, but does everyone think he is unsaved/unbeliever ??
The term 'apostate' (in my understanding) does not = unsaved. People can have the gospel message (salvation) accurate, but then veer off course when preaching about sanctification (or growth) as a Christian.
Am I saying this right? @mattfivefour
 

mattfivefour

Well-Known Member
The term 'apostate' (in my understanding) does not = unsaved. People can have the gospel message (salvation) accurate, but then veer off course when preaching about sanctification (or growth) as a Christian.
Am I saying this right? @mattfivefour
Not really. The Greek word apostasía means to depart from or forsake (as in to foresake an original position) or to desert or defect from the truth. It comes from a word that means "to take up a position away from" and while it is used a few times in the Septuagint, we find it only twice in the NT: Acts 21:21 and 2 Thessalonians 2:3.

In holy Scripture, it denotes a fundamental departure from the Truth. Therefore, I do not believe you can be apostate in just one area of the faith. It is a deliberate rejection of whatever the truth of a thing might be. An example would be when Jeremiah accuses the inhabitants of Jerusalem of forsaking the LORD God he uses the word apostasy to describe their actions (Jeremiah 2:19 Septuagint). So an apostate is one who rejects some or all of the crucial fundamental tenets of Scripture.

By the way, as a bit of an aside (yet one I think it necessary to insert here)-- in reference to something you said in your post, I do not think you can have salvation correct and sanctification wrong. Those people who have sanctification wrong have it wrong because they do not have salvation right. (Therefore you have to wonder if they are even saved because their idea of salvation is tied to an inaccurate view of what Christ did. If you don't have what Christ did on the Cross correct, then you have a different gospel than the one the Bible proclaims.

As to those who have salvation and sanctification correct but some other doctrine incorrect (eg gifts of the Spirit, or end times scenarios or whatever)-- they are not apostate; they're just wrong.
 

Amethyst

Angie ... †
If you don't have what Christ did on the Cross correct, then you have a different gospel than the one the Bible proclaims

in this post I was referring to:

This guy is one of the worst types of apostates.


Numerous people put a “100%” agreement reaction to it. So obviously numerous people on here think MacArthur is 100% not saved
I’m not arguing or agreeing, just hadn’t truly considered it. Considering his reputation just for one.
 

daygo

Well-Known Member
in this post I was referring to:




Numerous people put a “100%” agreement reaction to it. So obviously numerous people on here think MacArthur is 100% not saved
I’m not arguing or agreeing, just hadn’t truly considered it. Considering his reputation just for one.
Interesting thought, either your saved or your not imo
 
Top