JW forum encounter, obsessed with kingship

paul289

Well-Known Member
Someone in another forum I frequent came out as Jehovah's Witness, and it was pretty eye opening. Eisegesis is the name of the game. It all started with a question about the 144,000, and the depths to which he twisted and contorted to make the text say that heaven is for the 144,000 and that they're not actually ethnic Jews was incredible. Everything is literal, until it's symbolic, and there's no rhyme or reason for that save for whether or not it helps his case. I wasn't aware that they believed so heavily in replacement theology, that the Church is the new Jew. He kept saying that he had scriptural support, but each verse he cited was tangentially related at best, and in context showed a quite different meaning. Kings and kingdoms seemed to be a central theme, that kings must have someone to rule over, and that priests must be a mediator between God and someone, citing Revelation 5:10, "and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule [as kings] over the earth.” (NWT, brackets highlight addition). Now, every other translation does not have "as kings," where the Greek doesn't specify HOW we will reign, using only the word "basileusousin," which translates literally "they will reign." I think the implication of "they will be a kingdom" makes them think that those who reign must be the kings of that kingdom. Anyways, he kept insisting that kings must reign over someone, and priests must mediate.

When I pointed out that this has all sorts of baked in assumptions, he just kept insisting that it's clear and refused to explain why, while he had insisted that he had rock solid proofs that Michael is the angelic name of Jesus. Strange that he didn't have a proof for this other critical piece of doctrine. On the topic of Michael/Jesus, I pointed out that the angel in Revelation 22 told John "Don't worship me! Worship God!" while the apostles worshiped Jesus. If Jesus were an angel, then worship of him is inappropriate. There's another verse I didn't think to bring up then, but it's John 20:28: "In answer Thomas said to him: 'My Lord and my God!'" That is copied from NWT. The plain reading of the text says that Thomas is calling Jesus "Lord" and "God." Their study guide, however, has a lot of twisting and turning to make Thomas' statement more like when a secular person says "Oh my ____" unseriously. Digging into the Greek for this verse has only helped bolster my understanding that Thomas believed Jesus to be God.

Anyways, back to the kingship thing, it feels like they want to be part of the 144,000 so that they can rule over those on earth. This actually seems consistent with their refusal to participate in politics, because soon they will be in charge. Power seeking seems to be a crucial part for at least some of them, even though Jesus tells us "He who is first will be last, and the last will be first," that the one who wishes to be lord must become a lowly servant, but the servitude aspect seems to be missing from the JW crowd. In closing, I told him that I don't care to be a king. I only want to serve God wherever he will have me.
 

RonJohnSilver

Well-Known Member
JWs don't have just bad of errant theology, they are unbelievers. They don't believe that Jesus is God and that alone dooms them to hell. I read a couple books this summer written by ex-JWs and the extent of their unbelief is, well, unbelievable. So much of their 'theology' is what their board of governors say and that is largely either opinion or tradition. Although they spend probably more than any other group in 'church', they're not studying the actual Bible, but they are studying their own faulty writings and beliefs. Two books that show what their thinking is like are 'I Am Jezebel' and 'The Great Apostate'. Both are written by ex-JWs. Another book is 'Crisis of Conscience', written by one of their former board of governors (the very top in JWs) and how he decided that what he and the rest were writing and disseminating was wrong and his crisis of conscience. The first two are easy reads, quick. Crisis of Conscience is more for those who are already JWs because some of the material would be unknown to outsiders. Anyway, I recommend all if you want to see behind the curtain. Make no mistake, though, they are not just another denomination, they are lost, pure and simple.
 

paul289

Well-Known Member
Yep, claiming that Jesus is not God but an angel based upon two verses that are very, very tenuous is not Christian. It seems like every piece of their theology is severely twisted. "Treat them as Gentiles or tax collectors" is seen to be "kick them out" instead of "reach out to them." Jews after Acts 5 aren't Jews. The Lake of Fire doesn't actually exist. Everything is basically backwards.
 

GEOINTAnalyst

Well-Known Member
Very similar to Islam in that respect they do not believe that Jesus was the Son of God either but that Jesus was a Prophet - The following passages are from Qur'an 19: 16-21 to top bit is Arabic underneath is the English translation taken fro Qur'an Viewer software 2.9 which, I believe, is no longer under development.

وَاذْكُرْ فِي الْكِتَابِ مَرْيَمَ إِذِ انْتَبَذَتْ مِنْ أَهْلِهَا مَكَانًا شَرْقِيًّا

Relate in the Book (the story of) Mary, when she withdrew from her family to a place in the East.

فَاتَّخَذَتْ مِنْ دُونِهِمْ حِجَابًا فَأَرْسَلْنَا إِلَيْهَا رُوحَنَا فَتَمَثَّلَ لَهَا بَشَرًا سَوِيًّا
She placed a screen (to screen herself) from them; then We sent her our angel, and he appeared before her as a man in all respects.

قَالَتْ إِنِّي أَعُوذُ بِالرَّحْمَنِ مِنْكَ إِنْ كُنْتَ تَقِيًّا
She said: "I seek refuge from thee to (Allah) Most Gracious: (come not near) if thou dost fear Allah."
قَالَ إِنَّمَا أَنَا رَسُولُ رَبِّكِ لأهَبَ لَكِ غُلامًا زَكِيًّا
He said: "Nay, I am only a messenger from thy Lord, (to announce) to thee the gift of a holy son.

قَالَتْ أَنَّى يَكُونُ لِي غُلامٌ وَلَمْ يَمْسَسْنِي بَشَرٌ وَلَمْ أَكُ بَغِيًّا
She said: "How shall I have a son, seeing that no man has touched me, and I am not unchaste?"

قَالَ كَذَلِكِ قَالَ رَبُّكِ هُوَ عَلَيَّ هَيِّنٌ وَلِنَجْعَلَهُ آيَةً لِلنَّاسِ وَرَحْمَةً مِنَّا
وَكَانَ أَمْرًا مَقْضِيًّا

He said: "So (it will be): Thy Lord saith, 'that is easy for Me: and (We wish) to appoint him as a Sign unto men and a Mercy from Us':It is a matter (so) decreed."
----------------------------------------
As you can see Islam says Jesus is a "holy son" not the Son of God

As Paul Harvey once said: "Now you know the rest of the story"
 

Cloud Watcher

Well-Known Member
Back in the early 1970s, before I met the Lord, jehovah's witnesses came to my door and told me only 144,000 would go to heaven. I thought what's the point of being good, because far more people than that have already lived and died and all the spots are probably filled already. Fortunately, I heard the real story from someone else a few years later.
 

Lovin Jesus

Well-Known Member
I was in that cult for eleven years. I was SAVED out of that cult and became a follower of Jesus Christ, " our Great God and Savior" Titus 2:13

My mother who introduced me to it, claimed to be one of that "class" the 144,000.
While still one of them, I told her by that time it would be expected that number 144,000 should be complete, so how could she be one of that "class" number. As the elders from that congratulation taught her, she would be a "replacement".
So, not only is their replacement theology in reference to Israel (because the JW 144,000 believe that Israel lost their "chosen" people status for rejection of Jesus as Messiah, so they call themselves "spiritual Israel"), but within their own religion they replace each other because
some who claimed to be of that "class" actually weren't (I never did understand who makes that determination that any of them weren't actually one of the 144,000), to lose their position in that "class", so there are replacements", which explained how my mother was one of the 144,000. She told me "she just knew" she had the "heavenly calling as one of the 144,000".
"Spiritual Israel". :doh2:ohno I
 

Lovin Jesus

Well-Known Member
Yep, claiming that Jesus is not God but an angel based upon two verses that are very, very tenuous is not Christian. It seems like every piece of their theology is severely twisted. "Treat them as Gentiles or tax collectors" is seen to be "kick them out" instead of "reach out to them." Jews after Acts 5 aren't Jews. The Lake of Fire doesn't actually exist. Everything is basically backwards.
Yes, they believe hell, lake of fire, Hades, and Gehenna are all the same thing, the grave, they say Jesus was in that grave for three days. They say that the wicked face Annihilation, complete destruction and attribute their belief to that "God isn't cruel to impose eternal suffering so he will destroy the unrepented, or non JW. According to them only JW can enter the millennium".
 

paul289

Well-Known Member
I was in that cult for eleven years. I was SAVED out of that cult and became a follower of Jesus Christ, " our Great God and Savior" Titus 2:13

My mother who introduced me to it, claimed to be one of that "class" the 144,000.
While still one of them, I told her by that time it would be expected that number 144,000 should be complete, so how could she be one of that "class" number. As the elders from that congratulation taught her, she would be a "replacement".
So, not only is their replacement theology in reference to Israel (because the JW 144,000 believe that Israel lost their "chosen" people status for rejection of Jesus as Messiah, so they call themselves "spiritual Israel"), but within their own religion they replace each other because
some who claimed to be of that "class" actually weren't (I never did understand who makes that determination that any of them weren't actually one of the 144,000), to lose their position in that "class", so there are replacements", which explained how my mother was one of the 144,000. She told me "she just knew" she had the "heavenly calling as one of the 144,000".
"Spiritual Israel". :doh2:ohno I
I'm glad you got out of there! The hoops that they jump through are incredible! Eisegesis is their standard, and exegesis is to be shunned. Revelation is allegory and symbolism when convenient, but literal when it suits them. This mention of 144,000 seems to be the basis of most of their belief (I hesitate to even call it theology), and they see it where it isn't, claiming it to be clear when it's not mentioned at all. But the replacement theology is what gets me the most (besides, ya know, "Michael" being the angelic name for Jesus and the denial of the Trinity). The Bible couldn't be much more clear about the status of Israel, saying that they have a partial hardening for a time, and the 144,000 ARE Jews, because John lists them by tribe. If "spiritual Jews" were a thing, then the Bible would have said as much. But it requires a significant twisting of Romans 2:29, saying that inward circumcision makes someone a Jew, even though that's not at all what the context says.
 

Lovin Jesus

Well-Known Member
I'm glad you got out of there! The hoops that they jump through are incredible! Eisegesis is their standard, and exegesis is to be shunned. Revelation is allegory and symbolism when convenient, but literal when it suits them. This mention of 144,000 seems to be the basis of most of their belief (I hesitate to even call it theology), and they see it where it isn't, claiming it to be clear when it's not mentioned at all. But the replacement theology is what gets me the most (besides, ya know, "Michael" being the angelic name for Jesus and the denial of the Trinity). The Bible couldn't be much more clear about the status of Israel, saying that they have a partial hardening for a time, and the 144,000 ARE Jews, because John lists them by tribe. If "spiritual Jews" were a thing, then the Bible would have said as much. But it requires a significant twisting of Romans 2:29, saying that inward circumcision makes someone a Jew, even though that's not at all what the context says.
Agree with what you say. You understand then why it's critical for them to use only their new world translation bible, their own bible. They don't even allow for cross references to other bibles because they wrote their version with added or subtracted words to fit their doctrine. Take John 1:1 for example. They have to use only their best bible to fit their doctrine that denies Jesus diety by that verse saying the word was a god, they add the a and lower case the g to remove the dirty of Jesus from scripture. Ad for Israel, scripture is clear when Paul says "all of Israel will be saved" Romans 11:26, and pointing out that when it comes to the Gospel preaching Paul says " first to the Jew, then to the Gentile"
Romans 1:16.

Paul specifically says that God did not reject His people
11 I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham,[a] a member of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel? 3 “Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life.” 4 But what is God's reply to him? “I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.
Romans 11:1-6
So, the remnant here is of the nation of Israel but as they twist the scriptures they continue with their false claims that they are that remnant, as "spiritual Israel".
They fit well under the description given at 2 Timothy 4:3-4.
I am glad I got out too. Their Governing Body misleads the followers and they really believe what they say because the Governing Body says so.
 

paul289

Well-Known Member
I think I used that verse, Rom 11:1 in response to this guy. I don't know how the Bible could be any more clear about Israel being, you know, Israel.

It seems to me that the JW are very conceited and power hungry. Sure, they deny themselves earthly power, but they think that in doing so, they will have heavenly power. As a former insider, Lovin, what's your take on that?

Also, tangential to that, their belief in spirit bodies for the 144,000, they seem to ignore Job saying that after he dies, will see his redeemer with his flesh: "I know that my redeemer lives, and that in the end he will stand on the earth. 26 And after my skin has been destroyed, yet in my flesh I will see God; 27 I myself will see him with my own eyes—I, and not another." Now, that seems to be a bodily resurrection, as well as an assertion that perhaps God is the redeemer. And the Bible says in several places that no one can look upon the Father, but here Job says he will see God with his own fleshy eyes, physical eyes. How can this be unless God is also Jesus?
 

Lovin Jesus

Well-Known Member
I'm glad you got out of there! The hoops that they jump through are incredible! Eisegesis is their standard, and exegesis is to be shunned. Revelation is allegory and symbolism when convenient, but literal when it suits them. This mention of 144,000 seems to be the basis of most of their belief (I hesitate to even call it theology), and they see it where it isn't, claiming it to be clear when it's not mentioned at all. But the replacement theology is what gets me the most (besides, ya know, "Michael" being the angelic name for Jesus and the denial of the Trinity). The Bible couldn't be much more clear about the status of Israel, saying that they have a partial hardening for a time, and the 144,000 ARE Jews, because John lists them by tribe. If "spiritual Jews" were a thing, then the Bible would have said as much. But it requires a significant twisting of Romans 2:29, saying that inward circumcision makes someone a Jew, even though that's not at all what the context says.
I reread your thread here and upon reading what you say about the JW believing that Jesus and Michael the Archangel are one and the same, Michael is another name for Jesus as they believe. I remembered something that is said in the book of Hebrews that repudiates their validity to that belief. The verses in this passage is clear and points to the fact that it's not possible for Jesus and Michael to be the same person. Michael is an Archangel. Jesus is the Son of God. If the subject of Michael being Jesus comes up again just point to these verses that speak on this matter.

5 For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son, today I have begotten you”? Or again, “I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son”? 6 And again, when he brings othe firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God’s angels worship him.”
7 Of the angels he says, “He makes his angels winds, and his ministers a flame of fire.”
8 But of the Son he says,
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom."
Hebrews 1:5-8
 

paul289

Well-Known Member
Clearly, that would disprove the JW contention that Jesus is not God, but it's too obvious, so they changed it. The New World "Translation" renders verse 8 as such:
"But about the Son, he says: 'God is your throne forever and ever, and the scepter of your Kingdom is the scepter of uprightness.'" Naturally, the actual Greek does not say that God is the throne, but that the throne is God's. At least, that's what I get from perusing Blue Letter Bible's analysis of Hebrews 1:8. Someone who doesn't know Greek very well and isn't discerning would likely not notice it, so it pays to study at least a little Greek.
 

Lovin Jesus

Well-Known Member
Clearly, that would disprove the JW contention that Jesus is not God, but it's too obvious, so they changed it. The New World "Translation" renders verse 8 as such:
"But about the Son, he says: 'God is your throne forever and ever, and the scepter of your Kingdom is the scepter of uprightness.'" Naturally, the actual Greek does not say that God is the throne, but that the throne is God's. At least, that's what I get from perusing Blue Letter Bible's analysis of Hebrews 1:8. Someone who doesn't know Greek very well and isn't discerning would likely not notice it, so it pays to study at least a little Greek.
I agree. This is one reason why they will not use or give credibility to any bible translation other than their own. You are correct that one would need to be Greek literate to be able to use the original Greek transcripts and compare with their translation that they don't add up. This cult and I'm referring mostly to the WT Governing body, has blood guilt on themselves. Jesus told the scribed and pharisees something that could apply to any bible teachers who are teaching a false gospel. The JW governing body is accountable for false teaching to the followers like the blind leading the blind and will cost them salvation. These are the words of Jesus to the teachers

“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to"
Matthew 23:13

I was in there many years and I know how the inside works. The followers believe the governing body at watchtower society are a "special chosen group of men" out of the 144,000 "chosen" who to them believe are the "faithful and descreet slave" who "provides the spiritual food at the proper time". This is the view of those men that "their god" inspires them what to teach the followers and they listen only to them as the ultimate authority. I'm so glad I got out because of their cover ups on child "abuse" reports that they receive and they claim are only credible if there are two witnesses to an incident reported and protect their elders. My mom was in there for a number of years but days before her death due to cancer she accepted Jesus as her Savior. I feel sorry for the followers because they are blind and really do believe what they are taught whether it makes sense or not. And they teach them from the time they are talking as toddlers the fundamental teachings of their cult.
 

paul289

Well-Known Member
And like many cults, they rely on twisting everything into knots so that any logic they claim is impossible to follow, and hope that the long explanations will convince you that they are correct, only because they're long. I suspect that those in the WTS know it's a fraud and just want power, while those who join of their own volition are attracted by the power that is promised to those who are part of the "144,000", that they will be kings and priests to rule over the people. Power seems to be the name of the game in JW, while we as Christians are called to be servants. After all, he who wishes to be great in the Kingdom of Heaven must become servant of all. I don't care how much responsibility or how big of a mansion I'll have in Heaven, I just want to be with Jesus and learn from him.
 

Lovin Jesus

Well-Known Member
And like many cults, they rely on twisting everything into knots so that any logic they claim is impossible to follow, and hope that the long explanations will convince you that they are correct, only because they're long. I suspect that those in the WTS know it's a fraud and just want power, while those who join of their own volition are attracted by the power that is promised to those who are part of the "144,000", that they will be kings and priests to rule over the people. Power seems to be the name of the game in JW, while we as Christians are called to be servants. After all, he who wishes to be great in the Kingdom of Heaven must become servant of all. I don't care how much responsibility or how big of a mansion I'll have in Heaven, I just want to be with Jesus and learn from him.
100%
What is astonishing is that the followers don't even notice that the WTS places themselves in that "powers" class and consider themselves the ultimate authority and do not recognize Jesus as The One, the Only One who has the ultimate authority.

"Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me."
Matthew 28:18

The WTS recognize the power in authority in this order, Jehovah Father God but next the authority goes to them, the WTS governing body, leaving Jesus out as the One the Father has given authority to as the cited verse says. Your observation of power hungry is absolutely on target but not from the followers because they are just programmed obedient followers of the WTS, but to their society headquarters in New York. SMH they use the term society as to separate themselves as The ruling class and to use their term headquarters as though they are a business.
 

paul289

Well-Known Member
Lately I've been on a secret societies kick, how Masonic and occult influences have crept into society and are influencing pop culture and tempting children into being willing slaves for the elite. Freemasonry seems to come up a lot, with concealed knowledge promising enlightenment. It just occurred to me that there are disturbing similarities between Freemasonry and the Watchtower Society. Both claim to have the truth, both are very secretive, both treat ex-members with extreme contempt, both promise limited enlightenment/salvation, and there is at least one major symbol shared between them: that of a cross and crown. Oh, and their founder's grave site has next to it a pyramid which is a favorite symbol of the Masons, with the cross and crown on it. Curious.

Granted, I haven't looked much into it, but it's certainly curious. I'll admit, not all gnostics are Freemasons or JWs, but both are definitely of gnostic origin.
 

Bethlehem57

Well-Known Member
Someone in another forum I frequent came out as Jehovah's Witness, and it was pretty eye opening. Eisegesis is the name of the game. It all started with a question about the 144,000, and the depths to which he twisted and contorted to make the text say that heaven is for the 144,000 and that they're not actually ethnic Jews was incredible. Everything is literal, until it's symbolic, and there's no rhyme or reason for that save for whether or not it helps his case. I wasn't aware that they believed so heavily in replacement theology, that the Church is the new Jew. He kept saying that he had scriptural support, but each verse he cited was tangentially related at best, and in context showed a quite different meaning. Kings and kingdoms seemed to be a central theme, that kings must have someone to rule over, and that priests must be a mediator between God and someone, citing Revelation 5:10, "and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule [as kings] over the earth.” (NWT, brackets highlight addition). Now, every other translation does not have "as kings," where the Greek doesn't specify HOW we will reign, using only the word "basileusousin," which translates literally "they will reign." I think the implication of "they will be a kingdom" makes them think that those who reign must be the kings of that kingdom. Anyways, he kept insisting that kings must reign over someone, and priests must mediate.

When I pointed out that this has all sorts of baked in assumptions, he just kept insisting that it's clear and refused to explain why, while he had insisted that he had rock solid proofs that Michael is the angelic name of Jesus. Strange that he didn't have a proof for this other critical piece of doctrine. On the topic of Michael/Jesus, I pointed out that the angel in Revelation 22 told John "Don't worship me! Worship God!" while the apostles worshiped Jesus. If Jesus were an angel, then worship of him is inappropriate. There's another verse I didn't think to bring up then, but it's John 20:28: "In answer Thomas said to him: 'My Lord and my God!'" That is copied from NWT. The plain reading of the text says that Thomas is calling Jesus "Lord" and "God." Their study guide, however, has a lot of twisting and turning to make Thomas' statement more like when a secular person says "Oh my ____" unseriously. Digging into the Greek for this verse has only helped bolster my understanding that Thomas believed Jesus to be God.

Anyways, back to the kingship thing, it feels like they want to be part of the 144,000 so that they can rule over those on earth. This actually seems consistent with their refusal to participate in politics, because soon they will be in charge. Power seeking seems to be a crucial part for at least some of them, even though Jesus tells us "He who is first will be last, and the last will be first," that the one who wishes to be lord must become a lowly servant, but the servitude aspect seems to be missing from the JW crowd. In closing, I told him that I don't care to be a king. I only want to serve God wherever he will have me.
They are a cult. They train those younger members how to get out in the community to obtain more followers and are trained to the nth in slickness. They claim to have “a bible that takes up when Jesus came to America” and other nonsense about their leader. They send these young men out with practically nothing and they depend on people to open their doors.

God told us in Rev. 22:18-19 “I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.”

Deuteronomy 12:32 “Everything that I command you, you shall be careful to do. You shall not add to it or take from it.”

There are MANY more. Stay away from them! Their doctrine is from Satan.
 

alisani

Well-Known Member
My MIL used to love inviting JWs in when they came knocking. She'd wear them down with scripture. I remember once she had two of them in her living room and she had them sweating and on the losing end of the debate. So one guy excused himself to the bathroom but he wasn't safe there either-she kept the Word of God EVERYWHERE. Guy came out immediately, grabbed his buddy and said, "Let's go!" I think they took her off their door-to-door route after that. :ahaha
 

daygo

Well-Known Member
Talked too jw about end times once they came back and a teenager overlooked our talk for some reason, didn't get very far but maybe planted a seed to them.
 

paul289

Well-Known Member
They haven't dropped by my house yet, but they have been sending stuff in the mail that looks like handwritten notes to neighbors. They got my name right and my wife's name horribly wrong by screwing up her maiden name. I don't know how they figured out that she lived with me since we haven't even been married a year. It's just gross how insincere they are, sending a fake "handwritten" letter asking us to go to a "Bible study."
 
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