Isaiah 45:7 Evil created by God!!??

the stranger

Well-Known Member
Isaiah 45:7 (King James Version)

7I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

==============================================================

God Did Not Create Evil, Cold or Darkness


Now brothers and sisters, I got my own thoughts in mind, but I would like to know what you think of this link. I like it a whole lot and will be using it often. Give yourself just a couple minutes, but it is well worth the read.

Does anyone here believe God created evil in the context of "sin"?

I have done much research on this with the grace and help of God, but would like to hear all of your thoughts on this first!

God bless
 

micah719

an adopted son of The Most High God John 6:37-40
Imaginitive and well written, though no professor would ever permit apologetics to get that far...

A problem with the source website though...at the risk of yet more slapdowns from my dear siblings in The Lord, I believe the "how to get saved" section is wrong. Baptism is not essential to salvation, but it is a command from The Lord and one of its benefits is listed in 1 Peter 3:21. Here we go...
 

the stranger

Well-Known Member
719, I can not agree with you more and I get so so sick of the onslaught of more and more people being convinced in their mind that baptism is a requirement for salvation based on ONE misread and misused verse. It makes me sick to my stomick

On the other hand, most sites you go to, even this one depending on ones views, will have things that you disagree with. But, there is no sense of leaving good information behind just because we do not agree with everything on a website.

We all got different opinions I guess, but I agree, the views that get me the most is the ones that put a requirement other than confessing ones sins and believing in the Lord Jesus to gain salvation. The Holy Spirit will do the rest.

I guess that, though, is a whole different debate, brother. Feel free to start one up on baptism, because, I will be there.

--------------------------------

God bless:hat:
 

the stranger

Well-Known Member
Of all my personell study, this article seems to put this topic most accuratly. Any further questions please let me know! I will show you many of the sciptures that use this Hebrew word "ra" for "evil" and the different meanings of this word that is easily seen with each text. One word, defenition, never fits all in translations, and for that matter, even in English!


www.gotquestions.org/Isaiah-45-7.html

Why does Isaiah 45:7 say that God created evil?

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Isaiah 45:7 God create evil

Question: "Why does Isaiah 45:7 say that God created evil?"

Answer: Isaiah 45:7 in the King James Version reads, “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.” How does Isaiah 45:7 agree with the view that God did not create evil? There are two key facts that need to be considered. (1) The word translated “evil” is from a Hebrew word that means “adversity, affliction, calamity, distress, misery.” Notice how the other major English Bible translations render the word: “disaster” (NIV, HCSB), “calamity” (NKJV, NAS, ESV), and “woe” (NRSV). The Hebrew word can refer to moral evil, and often does have this meaning in the Hebrew Scriptures. However, due to the diversity of possible definitions, it is unwise to assume that “I create evil” in Isaiah 45:7 refers to God bringing moral evil into existence.

(2) The context of Isaiah 45:7 makes it clear that something other than “bringing moral evil into existence” is in mind. The context of Isaiah 45:7 is God rewarding Israel for obedience and punishing Israel for disobedience. God pours out salvation and blessings on those whom He favors. God brings judgment on those who continue to rebel against Him. “Woe to him who quarrels with his Master” (Isaiah 45:9). That is the person to whom God brings “evil” and “disaster.” So, rather than saying that God created “moral evil,” Isaiah 45:7 is presenting a common theme of Scripture – that God brings disaster on those who continue in hard-hearted rebellion against Him.
 

Meg

Well-Known Member
At the mercy of the translator... At the mercy of the translator... Just to make matters a little more or a little less confusing, since i don't speak Hebrew, it would seem that using the word "evil" was maybe not the most accurate choice, at least from the evidence at Biblos:

Isaiah 45:7 Hebrew Texts and Analysis
ר yo·v·tzer 3335 forming
אֹור֙ o·vr 216 light
וּבֹורֵ֣א u·vo·v·re 1254 and creating
חֹ֔שֶׁךְ cho·shech, 2822 darkness
עֹשֶׂ֥ה o·seh 6213 Causing
שָׁלֹ֖ום sha·lo·vm 7965 well-being
וּבֹ֣ורֵא u·vo·v·re 1254 and creating
רָ֑ע ra; 7451 calamity (trnaslated "evil" in your KJV)
אֲנִ֥י a·ni 589 I am
יְהוָ֖ה Yah·weh 3068 the LORD
עֹשֶׂ֥ה o·seh 6213 does
כָל־ chol- 3605 all
אֵֽלֶּה׃ el·leh. 428 these


Isaiah 45:7 I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things.
New International Version (©1984)
I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things.
 

Robert

Well-Known Member
In the KJV, "evil" was another word for "trouble", such as "the love of money is the root of all evil." That's the way they spoke back in that day and age. Today, "evil" is not as much a synonym for "trouble."
 

the stranger

Well-Known Member
Thankyou Meg, for your comments. I also agree that "evil" would not be and is not the best word used for translation for this verse in it's context. However, for all those who see the KJV as being equal to the original themselves, we must put things in a way they can understand from their own way of thinking.

Later tonight I will put some clear examples in different scripture to show the clear difference in the meanings in different verses. It is never as easy to to read the KJV and say, "it is what it says", when sometimes we truly do not know what it is saying without further research. Just like in all bible studies, when one verse seems to counterdict many others, then we must reach in for further understanding with the help and grace of God.

Robert, you are partly correct in this, but the Hebrew word is also translated meaning "sin" in different passages. With some passages, the word calamity just does not fit the context. In the verse in question, however, it certainly does.

I will give some more info shortly (later tonight).

God bless
 

Meg

Well-Known Member
I'm going to just sidestep the KJV issue, I have enough problems. The Biblos material I posted is from Strongs.

I did some work with Old Irish in translation, including a sober try at learning that very difficult language. When translating one language into another, there is a decision involved in the choice of words. Translating is very difficult even when you understand the original language well, because you're trying to get an idea across, so any given translation is going to be derived from how the translator thinks.

I honestly think the committee efforts such as the NIV are -- desirable, because they are a little more objective maybe. But even then, they are trying to get an idea across to the broadest possible audience. For all that, it does seem that in this case that the idea is not "evil" as in satanic evil, but more the sort of thing that happens when God sends judgement upon a nation or peoples. God is not capable of contracting Himself, and He is not capable of evil. trust me, if I had any doubt on that point, I wouldn't be here this evening, not after THIS weekend!
 

the stranger

Well-Known Member
Meg, as usual, some very good insight, and I fully agree. In saying that, there are many that will not debate with out strict use of only the KJV, as in it is 100% accurate in how it relates to the original, in their view!

Now I am not disagreeing with the "Strongs" definition at all, but just in case any one here is trapped by a KJV only freak LOL, I just want you to be familer.

In this passage, ofcourse, the word "ra" is used. In the KJV, this word is translated into more than 32 different words! Calamity is translated one time for this word in the KJV. (Psa. 141:5) and certainly translated more correctly in this verse. Most often the word "ed" or "havvah" is used in the KJV for the word calamity.

The most common use for the word "ra" in the KJV is "evil" which is used 444 times. All other translations of this word in the KJV represents less than half of total times the word "ra" is used. (1/3 would probably be closer) Trouble is used 10 times, and affliction, 6 times. End result, we really must break down the translation of "evil" inthe KJV.


Let us observe other verses in the KJV that translate the word "ra" as "evil".

Psalm 34:16 (King James Version)

16The face of the LORD is against them that do evil, to cut off the remembrance of them from the earth.
====================================================

Now in this case, it is clear that calamity does not fit this verse, but rather the meaning is relating to a sinful, rebellious attitude or actions. These next couple we will see the same thing.

Proverbs 1:16 (King James Version)

16For their feet run to evil, and make haste to shed blood.

Isaiah 65:12 (King James Version)

12Therefore will I number you to the sword, and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter: because when I called, ye did not answer; when I spake, ye did not hear; but did evil before mine eyes, and did choose that wherein I delighted not.

========================================================

Now let's look at a different meaning using the same word and the same translation.

Proverbs 16:4 (King James Version)

4The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

==========================================

Now the word "evil" here could never be defined as meaning sin. "even the wicked for the day of sin" It just does not fit. This is a day of righteous judgment, not of more sin. Let's look a little more.

Ecclesiastes 6:2 (King James Version)

2A man to whom God hath given riches, wealth, and honour, so that he wanteth nothing for his soul of all that he desireth, yet God giveth him not power to eat thereof, but a stranger eateth it: this is vanity, and it is an evil disease.

Jeremiah 1:14 (King James Version)

14Then the LORD said unto me, Out of the north an evil shall break forth upon all the inhabitants of the land.

Daniel 9:12 (King James Version)

12And he hath confirmed his words, which he spake against us, and against our judges that judged us, by bringing upon us a great evil: for under the whole heaven hath not been done as hath been done upon Jerusalem.

===========================================================

Now there is even a more widely use for this word that we have not dealt into, but here we at least see clearly more than one definition. Upon request, I will show you more meanings than even these two. Point being, just because the same Hebrew word is used in a translation, it clearly does not mean that all verses that use that rendering are all saying the same thing. This is proof that certainly it is not.

Let us look one more time at the passage in question.

Isaiah 45:5-8 (King James Version)

5I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

6That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.

7I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

8Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it.
===================================================

Now if one truly wants to see the differences in the meanings of this word, even in the use of the KJV., I think when one puts this verse in the proper context, one would have an awfully hard time to establish this meaning as "God creating sin"

Now we know that God is light and there is no darkness in Him.

1 John 1:5 (King James Version)

5This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.


And we also know that God cannot tempt us, or does not tempt us.

James 1:13 (King James Version)

13Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

And in fact, sin comes from us.

Jeremiah 17:9 (King James Version)

9The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Matthew 15:18 (King James Version)

18But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man

========================================================

Well, my sisters and brothers, I will end for now. The amazing thing is I had all my research on two different web sites, because you know, who does it old school anymore? LOL Both of the websites that I had all my info somehow are now off the air. In a way, it's a good thing. It is always good to go back and to again read and understand what one believes and why. If anyone wants more info, please just ask. I will find it to the best of my ability.


Meg, by the way, I fully agree with the last part of your post. It would be hard for me to worship a God that, just like us, had the ability to sin (which He does not) and created sin so we would fall. Some say that God could not have given us free choice with out creating sin, as in, all things, including sin, was created by God. The problem is, the bible gives indication that somethings were just there, or better put, only named due to the lack of a creation that is seen. Like darkness would not be known as darkness without the creation of light, and I believe the same can be said for death.


Genesis 1:3-4 (King James Version)

3And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

4And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

14And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:


=======================

One last quick thing to think about is that all of God's creation was (when created" good.

Genesis 1:31 (King James Version)

31And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

1 Timothy 4:4 (King James Version)

4For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:

1 Timothy 4:4 (Contemporary English Version)

4Everything God created is good. And if you give thanks, you may eat anything.



=========================================================


Meg, some great comments. I remember trying to learn Spanish in high school, and for that matter, at work, but to no avail. Every languish not just has their own words, but their different methods of implenting and meanings that are used.

I guess you got more brings than me LOL.

God bless ya all :hat:
 
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Meg

Well-Known Member
:hug Stranger, this is so sad. I so dearly wish the real experts, those who have had the privilege of studying the Hebrew at the university level would take the time to share what they know for the benefit of the rest of us!

Every Scripture you posted which is using the word "evil" could just as easily have substituted the word "calamity" or "chaos" or even something along the lines of "violent instability". God is fully capable of "causing" such things, but not by actively doing something horrible. I stand convinced that these calamities occurred in the Old Testament, occur today, and will occur in the future simply because as Paul put it in the Book of Romans,

Romans 1:18-27
18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

You see, in order to "instigate chaos", all God has to do is stop protecting people from themselves and from satan. In other words, all He really has to do is turn His back and let people do as they please unhindered. Paul surprises me in that he put this in sexual terms, because men lust after power most of all, and once they succeed at seizing power, they invariably abuse it. Hitler, Lenin, Mao, Pol Pot, are recent examples, but history is horrific with the evidence of what happens when the power lust in the darkened hearts of Godless men gets out of control. When God is truly in control, these things don't happen. It is only when God Himself and His Holiness are rejected that these things happen. Make sense?
 

the stranger

Well-Known Member
Dear Meg,

first, thank you for the scripture and the quote
You see, in order to "instigate chaos", all God has to do is stop protecting people from themselves and from satan. In other words, all He really has to do is turn His back and let people do as they please unhindered.

On these things I fully agree. Now I may see things a little different regarding different possibilities for the word "ra" as "evil" as translated in the KJV, but there is no reason to debate that, because concerning Isaiah 45:7, we both see the true meaning alike.


Thank you Meg for your pleasant input, and I know God will continue to bless you, both in this life and in our true home. :elmogrin:hat:
 

Elijah's Mantle

Well-Known Member
:thinking:
Ive been wondering about some things since reading about Job

In Job 1:7 we see Satan entering God's presence in order to make accusations against Job

Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?
10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.
11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.
12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

In this Old Testament scene which also makes me think more on what Chris pointed out about the Holy Spirit reverting back to operational ways more found in the OT we can read where Satan was allowed entrance into heaven. But the New Testament tells us of an event which forever cuts off Satan's entrance :yeah:

Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

IS THE DEVIL CAST OUT AT THE END OF THE 70TH WEEK? :thinking:
was it then ?
 

the stranger

Well-Known Member
Thank you Mantle for your comments.

In this Old Testament scene which also makes me think more on what Chris pointed out about the Holy Spirit reverting back to operational ways more found in the OT we can read where Satan was allowed entrance into heaven.

It does make you wonder, though, how all of those people will be saved after the rapture. I mean, is it not only through the Holy Spirit we are drawn to Christ, can believe in Christ, can live a Christian life due to our new heart for God, and gives us that guarentee of eternal life because He lives inside of us? I mean, would it even be possible for all to be called if only a few are equipped with the possibility to have the Holy Spirit? I guess only a few would be called instead. But what do I know. I will leave this part of the topic to some others.

IS THE DEVIL CAST OUT AT THE END OF THE 70TH WEEK

Good question. I think the answer resides in the way one views the order of events of Revelation.

Thank you Mantle for your thoughts, verses, and comments. God bless
 

Elijah's Mantle

Well-Known Member
It does make you wonder, though, how all of those people will be saved after the rapture. I mean, is it not only through the Holy Spirit we are drawn to Christ, can believe in Christ, can live a Christian life due to our new heart for God, and gives us that guarentee of eternal life because He lives inside of us? I mean, would it even be possible for all to be called if only a few are equipped with the possibility to have the Holy Spirit? I guess only a few would be called instead. But what do I know. I will leave this part of the topic to some others.

:thinking:
Ive been a pondering that same exact perplexing question Stranger
and the only thing I come up with from scripture is this
the only way to God as stated in the book of John is through Jesus Christ John 14:6
and the only way to Jesus Christ is through the cross Luke 9:23
and the only way to the cross is denial of self which we are told if we do not do that
we can not be his disciple that is recorded in Luke 14:27

so now that we have a 3 fold operational picture of how we obtain salvation it becomes much clearer
what is a necessity and as to how the Holy Spirit functions in the salvation process of being
born again :((

when the (church) is removed there may in fact be millions of unsaved people and also millions of empty church's with no people in them , now as for the lukewarm they obviously made some other something the foundation of their faith other than the Gospel given which is Jesus Christ and him crucified
so obviously those who had another Jesus will be left

:thinking:
they can still come to salvation it won't be impossible
but it will be unlikely they find their way out of spiritual adultery
sporting another source of faith :tsk: sad

your absolutely correct in saying :(( is it not only through the Holy Spirit we are drawn to Christ.
yes
and it is what Jesus Christ our savior did at Calvary's cross for all of us that the Holy Spirit functions and works in the truly repentant believer coming to believe in Jesus Christ and what he did that saves that lost soul .

:thinking:
so the question would be also to some measure 3 fold as well
will those left recognize the only way to come to Jesus
will they be willing to deny their own works even unto death
will the Holy Spirit help those who will be killed for their faith to remain faithful
to what and to whom that they believe ? upon

Good question stranger on the equipping of the Holy Spirit
we know from scripture that the Holy Spirit never works outside of
what Jesus did on the cross 2,ooo years ago
and as much offended as some are just because of the cross
I reckon it be as Paul said :scratch: and it is sad they may not grasp
why Paul did say what he did

however it is possible there be a few lukewarm left behind who do come to deny their own works religious or whatever be the case in fact and find their way to the Jesus who shed his blood on the cross for them and receive salvation however the nature to sin wont have a shred of restraining case in fact the church is gone and those who were in church wagering many that are in are not perhaps believing in the Gospel (the true and only Gospel given ) it will be intriguing if there other God's save them :scratch: as you know many are infected with false doctrine and damnable heresies Paul spoke about as did many of the other's who the Holy Spirit inspired to write the true Gospel

I would not say it totally hopeless
yet it will be unlikely
sadly enough :tsk:
 

Elijah's Mantle

Well-Known Member
IS THE DEVIL CAST OUT AT THE END OF THE 70TH WEEK
Good question. I think the answer resides in the way one views the order of events of Revelation.

:thinking:
Ive concluded the obvious answer on that question is no
for more than a many reasons it makes no Biblical sense it is then
I will try best I know to show them reasons how come :((

we can find in OT book of Job Satan did stand accusing Job
at what point satan could no longer stand accusing us night and day
I find best evidence of the stopping end of that took place when Jesus was crucified :((

:scratch:
maybe when does he get cast of the earth wuld have been better to ask
 

the stranger

Well-Known Member
Thank you for your honest insight Mantle. It seems almost every view has some questions.

PS. I would agree with you regarding Satan being cast to earth before the end of the 70th week.

If you think of anything else, feel free to share. I will be able to check back in sometime late tomorrow night or Saturday.

God bless :pray:
 

Robert

Well-Known Member
Actually, God DID create Evel:


Kinevil.jpg


Ladies and gentlemen, I present to you...Evel Knievel.


I rest my case. :hehheh
 

Chase

Member
My NLT Bible translates it as, "I create the light and make the darkness. I send good times and bad times. I, the Lord, am the one who does these things."
 
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