Is this talking about the rapture?

justme

In Jesus' Kingdom Soon!
Matt 24:36-44

36But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

37But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

40Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

41Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

42Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

43But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

44Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.


I've heard some teach that it is and some teach that it isn't? What do you think?
 

Sing4Him

JUDE 1:3 Contender!
TWO WOMEN GRINDING AT THE MILL
A Study by J.R.Hall of Grace Prophetic Ministries
Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. - Matthew 24:40-41

I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. - Luke 17:34-36

Introduction


The verses quoted here are passages that are most often contextually misquoted in the realm of Christian Eschatology. Most people attribute these passages to the event we call the 'Rapture' of the church. Even many of those who hold to the Pretribulational Rapture of the church position claim these verses as rapture passages, and unknowingly do so in error. This error has provided for many an interesting debate between those who hold the Pretrib Rapture position and those who hold the Posttrib Rapture position. Reason is, is that the PostTrib position holds these same passages as rapture proofs of their position. Regardless, and in either case, the use of these two passages as rapture passages do not align well with literal and chronological reading of the surrounding texts.

The purpose of this paper is to both 'correct' misconceptions with the Pretrib view in regards to these opening verses; and as a side effect to this process, we will reveal related conflicts with the Posttrib position.

The Gathering


We begin by studying another of Christ's parables to ascertain what is actually meant, or what is actually being references by these interesting passages.

Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Interesting thing of note here is that Christ is describing a time at the 2nd coming when he sends the angels out to gather the wicked (tares) from world and then gather the righteous (wheat) into the barn.

Those who hold to the idea that the rapture of the church will occur at the 2nd coming of Christ (PostTrib), utilize the following passages as rapture passages:

Mar 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
Mar 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

and

Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

I mention their position (PostTrib) now for a reason, that I will get to in a moment, but first let us take note that the location of the 'Grinding at the Mill' verses are after (see v40-41) the mention of a gathering in Matthew 24:31.

Because of the location of these passages in their surrounding text (namely at the time of the gathering of the elect), we find that these events just described certainly do appear to occur at the end of the Tribulation Period (Daniel's 70th Week).

If that is the case, then it looks like the PostTrib Rapture proponents might indeed be onto something in reference Matthew 24:31 and Mark 13:26-27 meaning the rapture, and that it does indeed occur at the 2nd coming. Ah, not so hasty. For a conflict now emerges that is overlooked by PostTrib proponents.

You see, as Matthew 13:30, 41-43 states above, the tares are gathered first and burned in fire... and then the elect are gathered into the barn and shine brightly.

We know that the rapture is the gathering of the Righteous (Christians). We know that the dead in Christ raise first, and then we who remain will be gathered with them.

1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Note that the rapture occurs immediately, we meet the Lord in the air and there is no mention of the wicked. The wicked are left behind. (This view is held by all rapture proponents, whether they be PreTrib, PostTrib or others)

With that in mind the passages of Matthew 24:31 and Mark 13:26-27 cannot mean the rapture because we are presented with the following question:

"Who is gathered first?"

One set of passages (the rapture) seem to suggest the righteous (or wheat) are gathered first, and the next set say the wicked (or tares) are.

We can see an error in trying to align all these passages together as one event. That is, we have a created a conflict by trying to align the rapture passages of 1 Corinthians 15 and 1 Thessalonians 4 with the events of Mark 13:27 and Matthew 24:31 for the reasons of the Mark 13:27 and Matthew 24:31 passages' relationship with the surrounding passages.

continued...
 

BuzzardHut

Bird Mod
Matt 24:36-44
I've heard some teach that it is and some teach that it isn't? What do you think?

This is the Second Coming
The one taken away is taken to judgment
the one left is ushered into the millennium
Jesus knows now when it is, but not at that time.


Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Matthew 24:37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Matthew 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

Matthew 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Matthew 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Matthew 24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Matthew 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Matthew 24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

Matthew 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
 

justme

In Jesus' Kingdom Soon!
The reason I ask this is after watching Perry Stone's program last Sunday. He thinks it is talking about the rapture. I don't always agree with everything he says though. Is his reasoning just to sell merchandise? :idunno:

You can watch this particular program and his reason for thinking it's the rapture by going to his website:
http://www.voiceofevangelism.org/video.cfm



and then watch program #328:
"On Location From Israel Series Part 2- The Truth Behind Being Left Behind "


ok........so is what he's saying correct or not? :scratch:
 

Chris

Administrator
Staff member
http://www.gracethrufaith.com/ask-a-bible-teacher/the-day-and-hour


Q. Jesus IS God. How could He not know what day or hour His return is? (the rapture) Thank you!

A. In Matt. 24:36 Jesus said the following. "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." The day and hour He spoke of is His 2nd Coming, not the Rapture. We know this because the phrase "that day" refers back to verse 30 when all the nations will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds with power and great glory.

By the way, notice that technically He didn't say that no one would know the day or hour, but that no one would know "about" it. The general time of His return will be known to believers on Earth at the time.


In Revelation 1:1 we're told that God had revealed these details to Him. This must have happened sometime between His ascension and His appearance to John on the Isle of Patmos. How could this be?

When Jesus agreed to become a man to save mankind, He had to set aside His Godliness, to step out of the Trinity, so to speak. The whole idea behind the Temptation Wilderness (Matt. 4:1-11) was to get Him to use powers reserved for God alone, thereby violating the conditions of His mission. All His miracles were performed through the power of the Holy Spirit. That's why He told His disciples, and us, that we would do even greater things than He had done. (John 14:12). Since during His time on Earth He confined Himself to doing only those things that can be done by man, He couldn't reveal the details of the day of His return, because those details had not yet been given to man.
 

justme

In Jesus' Kingdom Soon!
Q. Jesus IS God. How could He not know what day or hour His return is? (the rapture) Thank you!

A. In Matt. 24:36 Jesus said the following. "No one knows (about that day or hour), not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." The day and hour He spoke of is His 2nd Coming, not the Rapture. We know this because the phrase "that day" refers back to verse 30 when all the nations will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds with power and great glory.

By the way, notice that technically He didn't say that no one would know the day or hour, but that no one would know "about" it. The general time of His return will be known to believers on Earth at the time.


Is this the same as:
36But (of that day and hour) knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.


??? :scratch:
 
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justme

In Jesus' Kingdom Soon!
I do agree that Jesus knows (now) when the rapture will be! He is God and certainly would know now IMO, but during his time on earth he indeed had laid aside some of his godly attributes. :thumbup
 

justme

In Jesus' Kingdom Soon!
So......is what Perry Stone saying correct or not? :scratch:


He says he is breaking tradition. I admit I always thought that scripture in Matthew is talking about the rapture also.


Can anyone comment on what Perry says?
 

Sing4Him

JUDE 1:3 Contender!
continued from above

gathering told of by Christ in the parable of the wheat and the tares in Matthew 13:37-43:

Mat 13:37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
Mat 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Now you may ask, "If these verses aren't the rapture, then what is the gathering for?".

The reason for this gathering can then also be explained by continuing on in the Matthew text.

Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
Mat 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Mat 25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Mat 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Mat 25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
Mat 25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
Mat 25:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
Mat 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Mat 25:42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
Mat 25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
Mat 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
Mat 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

The gathering of the wheat and tares, contextually, chronologically and logically fits the gathering of the sheep and goats.

Timeline of Events

We can see now with the passages we mentioned above, that the verses harmonize into one complete outline of a timetable of events:

1. Christ Returns at the 2nd Coming (Mark 13:26)
2. The *Angels are sent out to Gather the Tares (Matthew 13:30; 13:41, 25:32)
3. There will be One Taken.. the other left. (Matthew 24:40-41; Luke 17:34-36)
4. Then the Righteous/wheat will be Gathered (Matthew 13:27,30; Matthew 24:31Matthew 25:32)
5. The sheep/wheat are gathered on the right of Christ, and the goats/tares on the left (Matthew 25:33)
6. The goat/tares are thrown into everlasting punishment and fire (Matthew 13:30,40,42; Matthew 25:41, 46).
7. The righteous wheat/sheep inherit the kingdom (Matthew 13:30,43; Matthew 25:34)

* Note: They are gathered by the angels, whereas we know at the rapture our bodies will be changed and we 'in a twinkling of an eye' are whisked up to be with the Lord - We do not need angels to gather us.

Conclusion

Our study has resulted in the presentation of scripturally harmonious chain of events in regards to the second coming of Christ. We have found that if we try to force the gathering of the elect of Mark 13:27 and Matthew 24:31 into the rapture as the PostTrib proponents do, we create a conflict between passages. As we know the bible contains no error, we are therefore left to conclude that the theology behind such a premise is faulty.

Likewise, if we try to force the 'Grinding at the Mill' and 'Two in the Field' verses to mean the rapture (and that means all you fellow Pretrib supporters out there), then chronologically we ourselves have made the same error. The reason being the obvious relationship between these passages with the parable of the 'wheat and the tares'.

The Pretrib Rapture Position can be chosen to be correct for many, many reasons; but those passages mentioning people being taken away and the other left from Matthew 24 and Luke 17, should never be used as part of that proof.

- J.R.Hall
http://www.tribulationforces.com/tfcdr/jrhgrinding.shtml
 

justme

In Jesus' Kingdom Soon!
Sing4Him did you watch the Perry Stone program and why he thinks it is talking about the rapture?


Perry is talking about the Greek meanings of the words used in Matthew.


I'm wondering what you guys think of why he came to his conclusion? :)
 

Remnant

Servant of the Lord!
Matt 24:36-44

I've heard some teach that it is and some teach that it isn't? What do you think?

I for one believe this is talking about the rapture and have always felt so. I have herd the teaching from many scholars that it is talking about the second coming. But if you take it literally and I think most scripture dealing with prophecy should be taken that way. Then it is referring to the rapture.
An old bible prophecy teacher and wonderful lover of God Jess Hindley wrote a book called the four horsemen of the Apocalypse and if you ever get your hands on it, read it. Could it be referring to the second coming? Maybe, maybe not, but the most important thing is that He is coming. Either way we will be with Him in the house of the Lord forever.
 

BuzzardHut

Bird Mod
This is the Second Coming
The one taken away is taken to judgment
the one left is ushered into the millennium
Jesus knows now when it is, but not at that time.


Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Matthew 24:37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Matthew 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

Matthew 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Matthew 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Matthew 24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Matthew 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Matthew 24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

Matthew 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
What did the flood do in the days of Noah?
It took them all away,
to be with God?
no
to judgment
 

Chris

Administrator
Staff member
So......is what Perry Stone saying correct or not? :scratch:


He says he is breaking tradition. I admit I always thought that scripture in Matthew is talking about the rapture also.


Can anyone comment on what Perry says?

I don't think he is correct. Here's what Jack said in my post above:

We know this because the phrase "that day" refers back to verse 30 when all the nations will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds with power and great glory.
 

Remnant

Servant of the Lord!
Matthew 24:38,39 could also be referring to Just like in the days of Noah people were Left to face the wrath of God. Just like in the days of Sodom and Gomorrah to be destroyed because they would not listen and heed the warnings . The other reason I believe these verses refer to the rapture is because v.36 says but of that day and hour knoweth no man, no not the angels of heaven, but the Father only. The second coming mentioned in Revelation 19:14 speaks of when we shall come with Him on white horses and every eye shall behold Him Revelation 1:7. This will not be a surprise event. The rapture or the taken away in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 is and what I believe to be the v36 of Matthew 24.

Buzzard Hut, I could be wrong for I have learned over the many years in ministry that we do make mistakes and I don't have to be right, just righteous because of Him.
 

justme

In Jesus' Kingdom Soon!
So is the Greek word study that Perry uses for his reasoning incorrect? :scratch:




I don't know anything about Greek words. :)
 

Sing4Him

JUDE 1:3 Contender!
Perry is incorrect as far as you have stated.

Please read Jack Kelley or Tommy Ice or David Reagan and absolutely
J. Vernon McGee...

also.. Chuck Smith (in blueletterbible.com)

Dr Ed Hindson "The King Is Coming".. (I love this guy!)


Does Joel Osteen preach we are sinners in need of Jesus' forgiveness and that Jesus died on the cross for our sins in order to have eternal life? Is this his only message??? Or is he preaching "come to Jesus, be a Christ follower"
There is a BIG difference in what the TRUE GOSPEL MESSAGE IS?

Anyone can be a "Christ Follower" or "Come to Jesus" or "Come on down and kneell up front to "follow Jesus".. but that is NOT the message of the cross.. .That we are SINNERS in need of Salvation by Jesus our Lord and Savior who died for us.
I could go on and on...

The use of the word "GOD" anyone can use. Anyone can quote scripture.. but what is THE GOSPEL????

Beware.. careful... listen.. ears will be deceived and tickled in end times!


For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths. 2 Tim. 4:3-4
 
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