Is there a garden of Eden in heaven?

[Salluz]

I'm reading Ezekiel right now and came across this in Ezekiel 28

12 “Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says:

“‘You were the seal of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 You were in Eden,
the garden of God;
every precious stone adorned you:
carnelian, chrysolite and emerald,
topaz, onyx and jasper,
lapis lazuli, turquoise and beryl.[b]
Your settings and mountings[c] were made of gold;
on the day you were created they were prepared.
14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub,
for so I ordained you.
You were on the holy mount of God;
you walked among the fiery stones.
15 You were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created
till wickedness was found in you.
16 Through your widespread trade
you were filled with violence,
and you sinned.
So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God,
and I expelled you, guardian cherub,
from among the fiery stones.
17 Your heart became proud
on account of your beauty,
and you corrupted your wisdom
because of your splendor.
So I threw you to the earth;
I made a spectacle of you before kings.

The order presented here seems to be that Satan was in the garden of eden for some indeterminate amount of time, eventually became evil, and then was thrown to earth.

I'm not sure whether the thrown to earth portion is yet future, talking about the part in Revelation were Satan is finally banned from Heaven during the tribulation, or whether it is just referring to his initial fall and his proclivity to wander the earth like we see in Job.

Either way, we are painted a picture of Satan in Eden among the "fiery stones," on the mount of God. Seems to me a different description than how Eden is describes in Genesis, and when we see Satan in Genesis, he has already fallen and is tempting Eve.

Is there an Eden in Heaven that the one on Earth was modelled after? There is a precedent for earthly things being modeled after heavenly ones with the (I believe it is) temple in Heaven

 

[RonJohnSilver]

There is a theory that Lucifer was the ruler of an Edenic Earth that existed prior to the creation/re-creation account in Genesis. This pre-Adamic world was corrupted when Lucifer became prideful and rebelled. So, proponents say, this passage in Ezekiel refers to the 'original' creation. So, the timeframe is that God created the world in Genesis 1:1, the world ruled by Lucifer and other angels. Lucifer fell and God destroyed that world and then re-created our current earth which begins in Genesis 1:2. It's a compelling theory and there are some verses that seem to support it, but I'm not conversant in Hebrew/Aramaic so I can't say yes or no. Finis Jennings Dake of Dake Bible was a believer in this and there apparently are numerous Jewish teachings that support it.

 

[Salluz]

The only thing I could say about that is how could Satan be cast down from Earth to Earth? I've heard that view from proponents of the non-evolutionary gap theory, but I'm still not so sure about it...

Assuming a heavenly Eden position, if the past tense really does mean it was all in the past, that would mean that although Satan still has access to the Throne of God like we see in Job or the fact he is the "accuser of our brethren," Satan no longer has access to the heavenly Eden or the Mount of God, wherever that is. I could see parallels between Adam and Satan in that sense, both being driven out of the garden... except Adam and Eve immediately repented and were promised a Messiah..

 

[athenasius]

There is a theory that Lucifer was the ruler of an Edenic Earth that existed prior to the creation/re-creation account in Genesis. This pre-Adamic world was corrupted when Lucifer became prideful and rebelled. So, proponents say, this passage in Ezekiel refers to the 'original' creation. So, the timeframe is that God created the world in Genesis 1:1, the world ruled by Lucifer and other angels. Lucifer fell and God destroyed that world and then re-created our current earth which begins in Genesis 1:2. It's a compelling theory and there are some verses that seem to support it, but I'm not conversant in Hebrew/Aramaic so I can't say yes or no. Finis Jennings Dake of Dake Bible was a believer in this and there apparently are numerous Jewish teachings that support it.

Finis Dake had a number of serious issues with his Dake's Bible. Might be worth warning about anyone accepting anything taught by Dake.

here is a good critique written by Joseph Chambers-- a Pentecostal pastor, now elderly who has done a lot of research and exposes of the Benny Hinn, Kenneth Hagin, Kenneth Copeland Word Faith Heresy. https://www.ovrlnd.com/FalseDoctrine/drakesbible.html

The "Dake's Bible"

& Confused Charismatic Theology


by Joseph Chambers


Many years ago, I became leery of the Dake's Bible, but never really understood why. The only thing I could identify was that those who became strong in their study of Dake also became arrogant and unteachable. If Dake said it, then it really did not matter what anybody else said or what the general difference was in other Scriptures. I basically quit using the Dake's Bible about twenty years ago and simply put it on the shelf.


Finally, I am beginning to learn why the inspiration I experienced caused me to move away from Dake's Annotated Reference Bible. I never saw the deceptive quotes that I have recently discovered, probably because to begin with I never used it much. As I have now learned, the Dake's Bible was really the text of the Charismatics before there was a movement called "Charismatic." Let me give you one Scripture that is foundational to what Hagin, Copeland, Hinn, Crouch, etc. are now teaching around the world.


This quote from Dake's Bible is the very first New Testament note in the edition that I have owned since the early seventies. The edition I am quoting from is the sixth printing, December 1971.


"Gr. Christos, 'Anointed.' - Used in N.T. 577 times. Like the name "Jesus" it has no reference to deity, but to the humanity of the Son of God, who became the Christ or the "Anointed One" 30 years after He was born of Mary. God "made" Him both Lord and Christ. The Heb. Is 'Messiah'." (Dake's Annotated Reference Bible, Finis Jennings Dake, published by Dake Bible Sales, Inc, Lawrenceville, Georgia, New Testament, p. 1.)


No Biblically solid minister or Bible student would accept the quote above. It is rank heresy and must be totally rejected or our view of Jesus Christ as the eternal Son of God is compromised. To suggest that Jesus became the Christ or the "Anointed One" thirty years after His birth is to commit heresy. This is an ancient heresy that is called "adoptionism." Kenneth Scott Latourette stated in his book, History of Christianity, Volume I, the following:


"Others, called the Ebionites, maintained that Jesus was merely a man, a prophet, a spokesman for God, as were the great Hebrew prophets of the past. Although some of them accepted the virgin birth of Jesus, others are said to have taught that Jesus was the son of Joseph and Mary, that at His baptism Christ descended upon him in the form of a dove, that he then proclaimed the unknown Father, but that Christ who could not suffer, departed from him at his crucifixion." (Latourette, page 121-122, Harper Collins).


This is a dividing of the natures of Jesus Christ, rather than the established truth of the unity of His Son of God and Son of Man natures. He was both Son of God and Son of Man at every point in His incarnation. Iraneaus spoke of this in his book, Against Heresies And Knowledge Falsely So Called. He stated, "Certainly the Gnostics confess with their tongues the ONE Jesus Christ, but in their minds they divide Him." (Iraneaus; ADVERSUS Haeresies III.16.1). His two natures cannot be divided.


John R. Stott, in a commentary on the letters of John addressed this great truth. "We need therefore to find an interpretation of the phrase which makes water and blood both historical experiences which he passed and witnesses in some sense to his divine/human person. The . . . most satisfactory interpretation, first given by Tertullion does this. It takes water as reference to Baptism of Jesus, at which he was declared the Son and commissioned and empowered for His work, and blood to His death, in which His work was finished. True, 'water' and 'blood' remain strange and surprising word symbols, and we can only guess that they were thus used in the theological controversy which had engulfed the Ephesian church. At least this meaning of the expression tallies with what Iraneaus disclosed of the heretical teaching of Cerinthus and his followers. They distinguished between 'Jesus' and 'Christ'. They held that Jesus was a mere man, born of Joseph and Mary in natural wedlock, upon whom Christ descended at the baptism, and from which Christ departed at the cross. According to this theory of the false teachers, Jesus was united with the Christ at the baptism, but became separated again before the cross. It was to refute this fundamental error that John, knowing that Jesus was the Christ, before, and during the baptism and cross, described Him as 'the one who came by water and blood'." (Tyndale NT Commentaries, LETTERS OF FIRST JOHN, J.R.W. Stott, pp. 180-181.)


The words of the angel to Mary should settle this subject completely. The Scripture stated, "And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God." (Luke 1:35).


This is further emphasized in St. John's question of the Lord Himself, "Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not." (John 10:36-37).


He is, and was, eternally the Son of God, anointed of the Holy Ghost. The doctrines of Hagin, Copeland, Crouch, and Hinn, etc. are clearly associated with this heresy. Paul Crouch, in a statement to Benny Hinn on TBN, stated that Jesus received His divinity back when He ascended out of hell after being born again. (See our video, TBN The Temple Of The Gods and Goddesses.)


As I write this article, I remember a horrible crisis that occurred about twenty years ago in the church where I now pastor. We had won a man to our church and he had made wonderful progress in the study of Scripture and his spiritual life. We elevated him to a very strong leadership position and made him a key teacher in our Sunday School. He then became involved in the Copeland doctrines and began to teach the doctrine of unbiblical prosperity. One day, he proudly began to argue to me that Jesus only became the anointed one at His baptism and was not the divine Son of God until this point. I immediately knew I had a serious problem.


When our church board met to solve the problem, we asked him to either renounce this idea or resign from his class. He refused and we dismissed him. Of course, he went up the road a short distance and started his own church. We lost a host of family members; all of which have never been stable in their Christian life since that time. I remember that the Dake's Bible had become his primary study Bible and the arrogance that I now know was evident in Finis Dake had become evident in this individual. He has never returned to the stability and truth that he traded for the Charismatic deception.


Facts About The Late Finis Dake


My method in trying to protect the body of Christ from deception is to refrain from any personal attack on anyone, but to deal with doctrine and Biblical truth. It seems appropriate to note some matters that relate to Dake because they were certainly part of the shaping of his ministry. My concerns are documented with information on the web site owned by the Dake's Ministry or from others, who have researched his personal life.


On the Dake web site there is an article dedicated to Finis Dake himself prior to his death, in which he stated some very remarkable things. Mr. Dake states, "I was immediately able to quote hundreds of Scriptures without memorizing them. I also noticed a quickening of my mind to know what chapters and books various verses were found in. Before conversion, I had not read one full chapter of the Bible. This new knowledge of Scripture was a gift to me, for which I give God the praise. From the time of this special anointing until now, I have never had to memorize the thousands of Scriptures I use in teaching. I just quote a verse when I need it, by the anointing of the Spirit." (Webmasters Note: I believe that Jesus had to memorize the scriptures just like any man would.)


This is absolutely contrary to Scripture and puts Dake, at least in his mind, on the same level as the Lord Jesus Christ. Remember, the criticizers of Jesus Christ stated, "How knoweth this man letters, having never learned?" (John 7:15). This would certainly give rise to him having an exalted opinion of himself and may have been one of the reasons for his arrogance. No Bible writer, Old Testament prophet, or New Testament apostle ever claimed such incredible ability. There is no Scripture to support this kind of gift by the Holy Ghost.


Research into Dake's background gives a picture of moral carelessness in his early ministry. Here is a lengthy quote by researcher, Les Brown.


"Finis Jennings Dake was born in 1902 and died in 1987. His son Finis, Jr. says it took Dake seven years of constant work to complete the 35,000 notes included in the 1,400-page Annotated Bible. It is a virtual systematic theology and a compilation of Dake's views and doctrines.


"Dake was ordained under the Assemblies of God in Texas. For a time he did evangelistic work in Oklahoma. He then moved to Zion, Illinois, where his fortunes declined, following a scandal involving a 16-year-old girl.


"The May 27, 1936, issue of the Chicago Daily Tribune reported that 'An indictment, returned last February in Milwaukee, charges that on April 23, 1935, Dake took Emma Barelli, 16 years old, of Kenosha, from her home town to East St. Louis for immoral purposes.' (pg. 1). The following day, the newspaper reported that Dake registered at hotels in Waukegan, Bloomington, and East St. Louis with the girl under the name Christian Anderson and wife. Dake, according to government investigators, said he picked the girl up as she was hitchhiking and she insisted he drive her to East St. Louis, where he was to deliver Bible lectures in nearby communities. Dake denied that any immoral action had taken place, claiming, 'I did take her there . . .but there was no immorality involved. I wanted to get her a job.' (Chicago Daily Tribune, May 28, 1936, pg. 17).


"When Dake came to trial in February 1937, he placed himself on the mercy of the court by entering a plea of guilty to the charge of violating the Mann Act. He was sentenced to a six-month stay in the House of Corrections in Milwaukee. Dake admitted to having 'petting parties' with the girl, but again denied any improper relations had occurred between him and the girl. The Waukegan News-Sun reported, 'Had he been found guilty by a trial jury, Rev. Dake would have been subject to a maximum sentence of 10 years in a federal prison and a fine of $10,000.' (Feb. 10, 1937). Dake called the jail sentence a 'vacation' and said he would use his incarceration as an opportunity to preach to the prisoners and devote time to writing a commentary on the Bible.


"The Assemblies of God severed its relationship with Dake, and he later joined the Church of God, Cleveland, Tennessee. It is not clear how his union with the Church of God ended, but Dake eventually became independent of any church."


Dake And Mormonism


There is an abundance of confusion in Dake's Bible and his other writings. None can be worse than the quote we started this expose' with, but other departures from truth certainly paint a picture of confusion. His teachings on God the Father that are found in his notes on the book of St. John are extremely revealing. Read these words carefully.


"He is a person with a personal spirit body, a personal soul, and a personal spirit, like that of angels, and like that of man except His body is out of spirit substance instead of flesh and bones.


"He has a personal spirit body; shape; form; image and likeness of a man. He has bodily parts such as, back parts, heart, hands and fingers, mouth, lips and tongue, feet, eyes, ears, hair, head, face, arms, loins, and other bodily parts.


"He has bodily presence and goes from place to place in a body like all other persons.


"He has a voice; breath; and countenance. He wears clothes; eats; rests; dwells in a mansion and in a city located on a material planet called Heaven; sits on a throne; walks; rides; engages in other activities.


"He has a personal soul with feelings of grief; anger; repentance; jealousy; hate; love; pity; fellowship; pleasure and delight; and other soul passions like other beings.


"He has a personal spirit with mind; intelligence; will; power; truth; faith and hope; righteousness; faithfulness; knowledge and wisdom; reason; discernment; immutability; and many other attributes, powers, and spirit faculties." (Dake's Annotated Reference Bible, Finis Jennings Dake, published by Dake Bible Sales, Inc, Lawrenceville, Georgia, New Testament, pp. 96-97.)


I presume this is where Kenneth Copeland got his Mormon doctrine of God being about 6'2" tall and weighing about 220 pounds, with a hand span of nine inches. Also, Benny Hinn is reported to have applied his teaching on "Nine numbers in the Godhead" to Dake's Bible. He later confessed that error and said he was joking with his congregation.


Such ideas about God have no relevance in the Scripture, although Dake gives multiple quotes to back up this doctrinal commentary.


Dake Limits God's Eternal Omnipotence


Here is an unbelievable commentary that is given within the story of Abraham and his visit by the pre-incarnate Christ. He suggests that God did not know what was happening in Sodom and Gomorrah and came to find out. "Here we have another proof that God receives knowledge of true conditions and becomes acquainted with existing facts. This plainly teaches that God, as well as men and angels, is limited to one place as far as the body is concerned. The doctrine of omnipresence of God can be proved, but not His omnibody. In His body He goes from place to place like other persons. Abraham stood yet before the bodily presence of God, but not before the bodily presence of the 2 angels because they went to Sodom and were no longer bodily present." (Dake's Annotated Reference Bible, Finis Jennings Dake, published by Dake Bible Sales, Inc, Lawrenceville, Georgia, Old Testament, p. 15.)


It is totally unacceptable to limit God, who is unlimited. He is omnipresent, omniscient, and omnipotent. Dake's confusion arises from identifying this Divine visitor as God the Father, instead of a pre-Incarnate appearance of the Lord Jesus Christ. Our God has certainly manifested Himself to different servants, but not His Divine essence. The writer in the New Testament stated plainly, "No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him." (John 1:18).


Dake gets around this by saying, "Our English 'seen' means to see with the eyes and also see with the mind. That it means here to comprehend fully or understand is clear from the fact that many men have seen God with the eyes. The verse could read, 'No man has ever comprehended or experienced God at any time in all His fulness, save the only begotten SonHe hath declared Him.'"


(Dake's Annotated Reference Bible, Finis Jennings Dake, published by Dake Bible Sales, Inc, Lawrenceville, Georgia, New Testament, p. 93.)


The False Concept Of "Little Gods"


Dake not only was confused about the omnipotence of God, but he also taught that man was a miniature of God. In conjunction with Dake's commentary on the Book of Job, he wrote about the idea called anthropomorphism. Under that heading, he said some strange things. "Anthropomorphism is the ascription of human bodily parts, attributes, and passions to God, and taking the substantiating statements of Scripture to be literal, and not figurative. In support of such teaching an appropriate question is: If God did not mean all He said about Himself in over 20,000 scriptures then why did He say such things? They certainly do not add to a true understanding of Him if the passages do not mean what they say. Furthermore, why would God, in hundreds of places, refer to Himself as having bodily parts, soul passions, and spirit faculties if He does not have them? Would it be necessary for Him to tell us He has such in order to reveal that He does not have them? Would He not be more likely to say in plain language that He does not have eyes, hands, mouth, ears, and other bodily members?" (Dake's Annotated Reference Bible, Finis Jennings Dake, published by Dake Bible Sales, Inc, Lawrenceville, Georgia, Old Testament, p. 547.)


His entire statement above seems childlike and basically ignorant of the revelation of Holy Scripture. Why would someone reduce God down to the level of men just because God speaks of Himself with words on our level? That is God's method throughout Scripture when He uses our language to convey His eternal truth. Because God said, "I saw you," does not mean His eyes are limited to human shape and size. The Bible said emphatically, "God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth." (John 4:24).


From this false concept, it is natural to move directly to the next step. If God is man-like, then man must be god-like. Under the same heading as above, Dake wrote about our god-like state. "Truly He is not only all that man, angels, and other beings are in this respect, but infinitely greater in everything; and man, in reality, is simply a miniature of God in attributes and powers." (Dake's Annotated Reference Bible, Finis Jennings Dake, published by Dake Bible Sales, Inc, Lawrenceville, Georgia, Old Testament, p. 587.)


This statement by Dake does not go as far as saying what is now being promoted by modern Charismatic leaders, but he does lay the foundation. His promoting of God as a man with all the human attributes, combined with the idea of us as miniature Gods, has been stretched to the present deception of men as "little gods."


Dake Carries The Idea Of Christ Emptying Himself To A Dangerous Extreme


The Son of God did indeed empty Himself to become the Son of man. What is extremely important is that this emptying was not a forsaking of His eternal essence, but an emptying of manifesting that essence. He was never void of His divine essence, but He did limit Himself not to express them while depending wholly on His Father and the Holy Spirit. Dake either did not understand the above or he willingly rejected it. Here are some of his statements on the subject: "Christ emptied Himself of His authority in heaven and in earth, which was given back to Him after the resurrection." "Christ emptied Himself of His divine attributes and outward powers that He had with the Father from eternity. He had no power to do miracles until He received the Holy Spirit in all fullness. He could do nothing of Himself in all His earthly life. He attributed all His works, doctrines, powers, etc. to the Father through the anointing of the Holy Spirit." "Isaiah speaks of the Messiah being born without knowledge enough to know to refuse the evil and choose the good." "Isaiah predicted that the Messiah would be born without the tongue of the learned, without knowing how to speak a word in season to help any soul, and that He would be wakened day by day to increase in knowledge and wisdom." "He did not claim the attributes of God, but only the anointing of the Spirit to do His works." (Dake's Annotated Reference Bible, Finis Jennings Dake, published by Dake Bible Sales, Inc, Lawrenceville, Georgia, New Testament, p. 218.)


I have tapes in my library with Crouch and Copeland on a TBN broadcast stating that Jesus never claimed to be God. Those quotes sound almost like a word for word expression right out of the Dake's Bible. These men and women, from Dake to almost every key leader of the Charismatic world, talk about Jesus out of both sides of their mouths. One moment they seem to exalt Him properly, but then they say these careless things that are utterly confusing. This gives a perfect fulfillment of Jesus' very words in St. Matthew. Read these words of the Lord Himself. "For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many." (Matthew 24:5).


Conclusion


Finis Dake's Bible is without question filled with questionable commentaries. It is not the reading material for young, immature Christians or undiscerning ministers. It has just enough truth to make his error seem plausible and convincing. He surely has convinced a host of modern day Pentecostals and Charismatics. No one would suggest that he is singularly responsible for the theological mess that floods these churches, but neither should he be excused for his part. Often when a figure such as Dake is dead, his teaching becomes even more powerful and accepted. Godly men and women must return to the simple Word of God and quit depending on popular figures to do their interpreting of truth. The Bible will interpret itself if you will: "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." (II Timothy 2:15).

 

[RonJohnSilver]

Thanks, just a note, though. I'm not a follower of Dake nor do I have his Bible or notes. I just know that he, and others, were advocates of that pre-Adamite belief. As for the belief itself, it is certainly out of the mainstream, but, as noted, there are some verses that seem to support it. For now, I'm filing it under 'I' for 'interesting if true.' As Andy Woods often says, this is not something that you want to start a new church over.

 

[AnewcreationinJesus]

This info on Dake very very interesting Margery!!! Thank so much for sharing ....

 

[Salluz]

This info on Dake very very interesting Margery!!! Thank so much for sharing ....

Always get excited when I see one of her posts. Good stuff

So we've gone over that we can't trust Dake, but is my idea something that's already been circulated, or am I just throwing something crazy out there? I remember hearing something somewhere about at least similar, but I don't want to be saying something that's "out there"

 

[JSTyler]

Always get excited when I see one of her posts. Good stuff

So we've gone over that we can't trust Dake, but is my idea something that's already been circulated, or am I just throwing something crazy out there? I remember hearing something somewhere about at least similar, but I don't want to be saying something that's "out there"

Her posts can sometimes be like those giant horse pills that you have to swallow to get all "healt-up" (I only mean this in a good way). So full of goodness and God's Truth, so much to wrap a simple mind like mine around, but worth the effort.

About your OP; I do believe that we will be living in a new Eden-like creation very similar to the glimpses we have from Genesis. I wouldn't enter into any arguments or theological debates about it but for me it has the feel of completeness to it. It's how GOD intended things to be from the start, I hope and believe that's how GOD will remake things for the yet-to-come-forever.

And dogs, there has to be a LOT of dogs, particularly hound dogs.

 

[Salluz]

Her posts can sometimes be like those giant horse pills that you have to swallow to get all "healt-up" (I only mean this in a good way). So full of goodness and God's Truth, so much to wrap a simple mind like mine around, but worth the effort.

About your OP; I do believe that we will be living in a new Eden-like creation very similar to the glimpses we have from Genesis. I wouldn't enter into any arguments or theological debates about it but for me it has the feel of completeness to it. It's how GOD intended things to be from the start, I hope and believe that's how GOD will remake things for the yet-to-come-forever.

And dogs, there has to be a LOT of dogs, particularly hound dogs.

You know I wasn't even thinking about where we would be living, but I do have to say I've always really hoped the New Jerusalem would have something like a giant central park to go along with the beautiful city. Gold and precious gems are amazing, but I really hope I can have my toes in the grass. Although I guess I could always take a trip to the New Earth, which will surely have it

 

[athenasius]

Always get excited when I see one of her posts. Good stuff

So we've gone over that we can't trust Dake, but is my idea something that's already been circulated, or am I just throwing something crazy out there? I remember hearing something somewhere about at least similar, but I don't want to be saying something that's "out there"

I been meaning to get back in here because I had a thought that might or might not work. (apologies, been a bit busy on the home base)

I need to clear up that the only reason I brought up the problems with Dake is because we have a lot of lurkers, who might go off and running with a Dake Bible to look it all up without realizing the subtle poison in the sidebars. I've been startled on here when I mention historical references, and then having people misunderstand and start viewing these sources as if they were up there with the Bible. So it was a just in case anyone got hold of a Dake's notes, and began going sideways without anyone saying be careful, he's got some hidden leaven in there that can be toxic.

So that passage you were talking about

Ezekiel 28

12 “Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says:

“‘You were the seal of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 You were in Eden,
the garden of God;
every precious stone adorned you:
carnelian, chrysolite and emerald,
topaz, onyx and jasper,
lapis lazuli, turquoise and beryl.[b]
Your settings and mountings[c] were made of gold;
on the day you were created they were prepared.
14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub,
for so I ordained you.
You were on the holy mount of God;
you walked among the fiery stones.
15 You were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created
till wickedness was found in you.
16 Through your widespread trade
you were filled with violence,
and you sinned.
So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God,
and I expelled you, guardian cherub,
from among the fiery stones.
17 Your heart became proud
on account of your beauty,
and you corrupted your wisdom
because of your splendor.
So I threw you to the earth;
I made a spectacle of you before kings.

And you asked this:

The order presented here seems to be that Satan was in the garden of eden for some indeterminate amount of time, eventually became evil, and then was thrown to earth.

I'm not sure whether the thrown to earth portion is yet future, talking about the part in Revelation were Satan is finally banned from Heaven during the tribulation, or whether it is just referring to his initial fall and his proclivity to wander the earth like we see in Job.

Either way, we are painted a picture of Satan in Eden among the "fiery stones," on the mount of God. Seems to me a different description than how Eden is describes in Genesis, and when we see Satan in Genesis, he has already fallen and is tempting Eve.

Is there an Eden in Heaven that the one on Earth was modelled after? There is a precedent for earthly things being modeled after heavenly ones with the (I believe it is) temple in Heaven

I agree that it looks like Eden exists in heaven and once also existed here on Earth. In the same way that Jesus applied His blood to the Mercy Seat in Heaven, which was the real Mercy Seat that the one in the Temple was a copy of.

Timing of Satan's fall is interesting.

Job 38 here:
4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

And it looks like this was occurring on the 1st Day. The morning stars/sons of God sound like angels shouting for joy as God created them in a moment and then they get to see the creation of the foundations of the earth. They are in God's presence, they are singing or shouting for joy all in one accord. So Satan hasn't fallen yet. And they all shout for joy when God lays the foundation of the earth.

The order of Creation meant that almost in the same moment, but just before, God creates the HEAVEN THEN the Earth and I think as the Heaven is created, the stars referred to are NOT suns as we think of stars but as Angels as the Bible sometimes refers to them. The STARS (Suns) are created on the 4rth Day of Creation. So I think in the Job account as God speaks to Job we are looking at the ANGELIC HOST here viewing things as they come into being with the heavens, and watch as the EARTH is formed.

So my reading is that Satan falls very quickly. Somewhere between Day 1 and Day 5 as ADAM is created. OR even a little later, as there is a time gap possible between Creation (chapters 1&2) and the FALL (Genesis 3). Genesis 1&2 - give the order of creation, and the details of the garden and Adam and Eve) but there may be a gap, long but not too long in the beginning of Genesis 3 where the fall happens. ( I say that can't be too long, because when Adam falls, no child is in Eve's womb-- and they are created as adults with adult thinking capacity-- ie knowing to follow God's instructions and knowing there are consequences if they don't)

So Satan is able to walk on the fire stones of Eden's location on the mount of God with God and enjoy watching creation happening as he looks at his own glorious body that was just created and enjoy the high rank he was created to serve in. Something dreadful happens. Possibly when he looks at the creation of Adam and realizes this is a serious rival for him, this being that is given stewardship over the new Earth, that Earth that is looking more beautiful by the day.

Now onto the other point that you bring up here "I'm not sure whether the thrown to earth portion is yet future, talking about the part in Revelation were Satan is finally banned from Heaven during the tribulation, or whether it is just referring to his initial fall and his proclivity to wander the earth like we see in Job."

I think POSSIBLY that there is a TIME REFERENCE break in the reference much like Luke 4: 16-20 where Jesus stood up and read that passage in Isaiah 61 stopping halfway into verse 2. Mid breath and there is this HUGE break from the present to the future. Jesus was proclaiming the year of the Lord's Favour, but stopped before declaring The Day of Vengeance.

In this passage you are looking at, we go from Creation-- before Satan fell to a point far distant future when he falls before kings. I think there is a HUGE time gap before the final verse here:
So I threw you to the earth;
I made a spectacle of you before kings.

And that wouldn't be in front of Adam because kings is in multiple. The wording of making a spectacle before kings, is more consistent with Revelation.

And that is interesting because we know that up till that point, the accuser (Satan) is able to accuse us before God.
Romans 8:34 New King James Version (NKJV)
34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.

And that speaks to the fact that someone is able to condemn us, but Christ is not that one, Christ is the one who died in our place, and makes intercession for us. The one who condemns is Satan. Paul is using the contrast to teach us that Christ doesn't condemn us.

I've enjoyed mulling this over. But I haven't answered a single thing. Just added my two bits.

 

[kathymendel]

I have always had a feeling that Eden still exists here on earth................ perhaps in another dimension. God is capable of doing that. He said He put angels there to shield it and to keep man from reentering it............. perhaps at some future time in eternity, He will open it once again to mankind. Just my humble thoughts............

 

[RonJohnSilver]

In the original Eden, God told Adam/Eve to multiply. So, if they hadn't sinned and continued to multiply, then Eden would have also have had to increase in size otherwise it would get crowded with A/E's children. So, it follows then that God's plan was that Eden and A/E's children would continue to increase until the entire Earth was Eden. Just a thought.

 

[athenasius]

In the original Eden, God told Adam/Eve to multiply. So, if they hadn't sinned and continued to multiply, then Eden would have also have had to increase in size otherwise it would get crowded with A/E's children. So, it follows then that God's plan was that Eden and A/E's children would continue to increase until the entire Earth was Eden. Just a thought.

I've wondered if that crowding from the blessing of children would have allowed expansion to other planets. I wonder if when Adam fell and the curse was upon the earth, that Mars then lost it's atmosphere and it's ocean and Venus became a toxic acid clouds and acid rain filled planet sizzling with heat and lethal acidity.

And my apologies for making it sound like I was including you in my concern about the Dake Bible. I wasn't. You weren't recommending it, just mentioning it as a source of one of the theories that people have. I was worried that some of our lurkers might be intrigued enough to go find a copy and use it without realizing the pitfalls.

 

[Salluz]

I been meaning to get back in here because I had a thought that might or might not work. (apologies, been a bit busy on the home base)

I need to clear up that the only reason I brought up the problems with Dake is because we have a lot of lurkers, who might go off and running with a Dake Bible to look it all up without realizing the subtle poison in the sidebars. I've been startled on here when I mention historical references, and then having people misunderstand and start viewing these sources as if they were up there with the Bible. So it was a just in case anyone got hold of a Dake's notes, and began going sideways without anyone saying be careful, he's got some hidden leaven in there that can be toxic.

I totally understood; don't worry!

The order of Creation meant that almost in the same moment, but just before, God creates the HEAVEN THEN the Earth and I think as the Heaven is created, the stars referred to are NOT suns as we think of stars but as Angels as the Bible sometimes refers to them. The STARS (Suns) are created on the 4rth Day of Creation. So I think in the Job account as God speaks to Job we are looking at the ANGELIC HOST here viewing things as they come into being with the heavens, and watch as the EARTH is formed.

So my reading is that Satan falls very quickly. Somewhere between Day 1 and Day 5 as ADAM is created. OR even a little later, as there is a time gap possible between Creation (chapters 1&2) and the FALL (Genesis 3). Genesis 1&2 - give the order of creation, and the details of the garden and Adam and Eve) but there may be a gap, long but not too long in the beginning of Genesis 3 where the fall happens. ( I say that can't be too long, because when Adam falls, no child is in Eve's womb-- and they are created as adults with adult thinking capacity-- ie knowing to follow God's instructions and knowing there are consequences if they don't)

Is there a chance when it says in Gen 1 "God created the heavens and the earth" it was only referring to the 1st and 2nd heavens (ie the sky and space)?

I've always seen it as the third heaven (God's heaven) existing for some indeterminate time before our creation.

Similarly, I've viewed the promise of a new heavens and a new earth from an earth centric view of "new space and sky" rather than God totally remaking his own heaven as well

 

[mattfivefour]

Heaven IS a Garden of Eden.

 

[Patiently...]

I remember this article
https://www.raptureforums.com/ron-nathele-graham/paradise-lost/

Paradise Lost

• July 28, 2018
• Ron and Nathele Graham

Paradise Lost
By Ronald Graham
These days there seems to be a lot of confusion, conjecture, fictional theories, and downright foolishness concerning the whereabouts of the Garden of Eden. What happened to that awesome Garden after Adam and Eve rebelled and received their eviction notice demanding they leave their one time home post-haste? Was it destroyed by the Flood of Noah’s time? Was it just simply eliminated by God? Where has it gone, this Garden of God?

 

[antitox]

I have read different claims that are made about where Eden was: some think Mesopotamia, but I look at what Satan normally does when God uses a particular site somewhere. He goes behind and plants his evil seed on that site - he desecrates it- because that's what he's always trying to do. I believe it was in the area of where the Tower of Babel and Babylon later was put. It's no different than the Arabs putting the Al-Aqsa Mosque on Mt Moriah. Always trying to desecrate.

 

[DWB]

I have always had a feeling that Eden still exists here on earth................ perhaps in another dimension. God is capable of doing that. He said He put angels there to shield it and to keep man from reentering it............. perhaps at some future time in eternity, He will open it once again to mankind. Just my humble thoughts............

I agree, God did indeed say that so it is true! Maybe it was moved to Heaven before the flood?

On another note, the knowledge of members here is simply amazing. Thanks for sharing!!