Is the universe under the curse of sin?

MePlus6

Well-Known Member
I’ve been thinking about this for quite some time. When errant asteroids, meteoroids and comets pummel planets, it makes me thing there’s a lack of order in an otherwise orderly system.

The planets all revolve around our sun orderly. Moons around their host planet. Stars around the galactic center.

But the Andromeda galaxy and the Milky Way galaxy are on a collision course. I remember when Shoemaker-Levy 9 broke apart and crashed into Jupiter a few decades ago. Clearly the moon and Earth has been impacted by space rocks, for lack of a better term.

Did Adam and Eve’s original sin cause not only the Earth to be under the curse of sin but the rest of the universe too? I never understood how a worldly event would affect things extraterrestrially.
 

athenasius

Well-Known Member
I’ve been thinking about this for quite some time. When errant asteroids, meteoroids and comets pummel planets, it makes me thing there’s a lack of order in an otherwise orderly system.

The planets all revolve around our sun orderly. Moons around their host planet. Stars around the galactic center.

But the Andromeda galaxy and the Milky Way galaxy are on a collision course. I remember when Shoemaker-Levy 9 broke apart and crashed into Jupiter a few decades ago. Clearly the moon and Earth has been impacted by space rocks, for lack of a better term.

Did Adam and Eve’s original sin cause not only the Earth to be under the curse of sin but the rest of the universe too? I never understood how a worldly event would affect things extraterrestrially.
because God created all things, in the 6 days of Creation. And that includes the universe which the earth is nestled into.

Although the universe is impossibly vast for us to contemplate, that act of sin, the fall put the whole thing all at once under the law of sin and death. Decay, and the Second Law of Thermodynamics came into play.

Here it is
"What is the 2nd law of thermodynamics in simple terms?
The second law of thermodynamics means hot things always cool unless you do something to stop them. It expresses a fundamental and simple truth about the universe: that disorder, characterised as a quantity known as entropy, always increases."

Entropy or disorder (chaos) increases while the orderly creation is dissolving under it's weight.

This manifests in the universe as we see things smash into others, or like many a comet, just plow into the sun or evaporate completely as they pass the sun again.

It manifests in genetics, where mutations have begun to accumulate in the genomes of humans and the animals-- a breakdown.

Back when Noah's family got out of the Ark, marrying within the family was normal, but generations later, it was outlawed by God. The Egyptian Pharoahs and closer in time to us, the Hapsburg dynasty didn't obey that, and some pretty odd malformations began appearing. This is because as time goes by, genetics (which is like a copy machine) continues to copy, but errors creep in and become part of the copy, so a copy of a copy of a copy x 100 generations --it can get pretty blurry and not as close to the crisp sharp copy of the original that was started with.

A reason that we are in a very young earth and universe is that moondust hasn't had the time to build up which it should if everything happened at the same rate as we see it now, the surface of the moon would be a giant soft fluffy dust ball, and astronauts might sink several feet into the surface. It was a calculation that worried NASA in the original moon landing. But there is not a lot of dust.

The old earth people and non Christians who like to believe in evolution and long ages of time either don't realize the math involved or they purposefully ignore it.

It's why creation groans around us, longing for redemption.
 

athenasius

Well-Known Member
More on moon dust. Sadly answers in Genesis (and most others) no longer stands by it.

https://answersingenesis.org/kids/astronomy/moon-dust-argument-no-longer-useful/
appreciate that!

Of course the whole point of the universe under the curse is about entropy aka the Second Law of Thermodynamics which is easily proven otherwise. I won't use that argument again for the young earth or as a side point of entropy.

LOL I could simply use the illustration of housework. A perfectly clean orderly home doesn't stay that way! A sad reality but the universe is the same way. It's winding down like a clock that is losing it's strength with each passing moment.
 

JamesSuth

Well-Known Member
The world and the universe are amazingly made, but it is all under the curse so that nothing quite works as it should. Stars are amazing, but they will burn out. What we take for granted is actually not the way things are meant to be. When God restores this world, and in Heaven right now, everything is perfect. There will be no rust or decay in materials, there will be no food chains, everything will be in harmony. When I stop to think that through it is almost impossible to imagine a perfect world given what we are used to. But that is what we are looking forward to :)
 

Jonathan

Well-Known Member
because God created all things, in the 6 days of Creation. And that includes the universe which the earth is nestled into.

Although the universe is impossibly vast for us to contemplate, that act of sin, the fall put the whole thing all at once under the law of sin and death. Decay, and the Second Law of Thermodynamics came into play.

Here it is
"What is the 2nd law of thermodynamics in simple terms?
The second law of thermodynamics means hot things always cool unless you do something to stop them. It expresses a fundamental and simple truth about the universe: that disorder, characterised as a quantity known as entropy, always increases."

Entropy or disorder (chaos) increases while the orderly creation is dissolving under it's weight.

This manifests in the universe as we see things smash into others, or like many a comet, just plow into the sun or evaporate completely as they pass the sun again.

It manifests in genetics, where mutations have begun to accumulate in the genomes of humans and the animals-- a breakdown.

Back when Noah's family got out of the Ark, marrying within the family was normal, but generations later, it was outlawed by God. The Egyptian Pharoahs and closer in time to us, the Hapsburg dynasty didn't obey that, and some pretty odd malformations began appearing. This is because as time goes by, genetics (which is like a copy machine) continues to copy, but errors creep in and become part of the copy, so a copy of a copy of a copy x 100 generations --it can get pretty blurry and not as close to the crisp sharp copy of the original that was started with.

A reason that we are in a very young earth and universe is that moondust hasn't had the time to build up which it should if everything happened at the same rate as we see it now, the surface of the moon would be a giant soft fluffy dust ball, and astronauts might sink several feet into the surface. It was a calculation that worried NASA in the original moon landing. But there is not a lot of dust.

The old earth people and non Christians who like to believe in evolution and long ages of time either don't realize the math involved or they purposefully ignore it.

It's why creation groans around us, longing for redemption.
Excellent post. I can't add anything to what you specifically said, but would like to say the following:

Often people are confused about entropy. They ask a fair question in asking "If entropy is real, why hasn't our planet died by now? Or if "not by now," than at least it has become less orderly and more entropic.

After all, if entropy is true, shouldn't our planet be in a constant state of decline?

Now, THIS IS KEY: The intellectual theory of entropy is only consequential and useful in a closed environment. If the earth was within a closed environment, than everything the questioner asked would be true. However, the Earth is NOT in a closed system. This huge ball of fusion known as the sun is constantly feeding our planet with energy in form of heat & radiation, which through various means (photosynthesis) maintains or even creates "order."

However, on the other side of the coin, if you consider the sun alongside the earth in this equation as being part of the same, one system,, then yes, entropy is increasing. Because even though the sun is maintaining and producing order on Earth, it, still, is loosing order in the process and becoming more entropic over time. The only way to prevent this from happening is to include ANOTHER source of energy. And on, and on, and on.
 
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Work4Peanuts

I like being just a Well-Known Member
Huh. My first thought as to the apparent chaos currently in the universe and heavenly realms was that it referred back to Satan's rebellion.

Isaiah 14:12-15
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

and Revelation 12 talks about the devil and a third of the stars of the sky (the angels) being cast down from heaven by Michael and his host.

I don't really want to get into a discussion of "different" levels of heaven. Obviously, when astronauts fly around the earth they haven't made it to the spiritual heaven that we look forward to as Christians after death. None of them have taken a picture of God using the earth as His footstool, while they were in orbit. Yet when Jesus left, He ascended and said He would be coming back the same way.

So, I do think that the heavens have been affected by the curse of sin, but maybe not the curse that we think of that was put upon the earth from Adam's rebellion in the garden.
 

athenasius

Well-Known Member
So, I do think that the heavens have been affected by the curse of sin, but maybe not the curse that we think of that was put upon the earth from Adam's rebellion in the garden.
I would disagree slightly, based on this verse here: Romans 8:19-23 where Paul talks about the whole creation being in bondage to decay for this present age.

19 For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the children of God; 20 for the creation was subjected to futility, not of its own will but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and will obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning in labor pains until now; 23 and not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly while we wait for adoption, the redemption of our bodies.
 
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