Is Revelation in chronological order? Revelation 17 has my head scratching

Lovin Jesus

Well-Known Member
I've had a head scratching question that I'd like to present to anyone who has come across this question and can help me understand. I hope I don't leave you as confused as I am. I'll do my best to lay out everything so you can understand what has me confused. The bottom line, it has me question whether Revelation is in chronological order.
Using scripture I'll present what I do understand and then ask my question.
First, the apostle Paul explains the timing of the appearing of the Antichrist
"Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers, 2 not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,"
2 Thessalonians 2:1-3
Then Paul adds
5 "Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming."
2 Thessalonians 2:5-8
So this sets the timing of the AC being revealed after the rapture.
I've understood Daniel 7:8 to be lined up with this reveal of the AC.
“While I was thinking about the horns, a little one, which came up among them; and three of the first horns were uprooted before it. This horn had eyes like the eyes of a human being and a mouth that spoke boastfully".
Daniel 7:8
Is this in line with Revelation 6:1-2? Or with Revelation 17:13-14?
Now turning to Revelation

"I watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals. Then I heard one of the four living creatures say in a voice like thunder, “Come!” 2 I looked, and there before me was a white horse! Its rider held a bow, and he was given a crown, and he rode out as a conqueror bent on conquest."
Revelation 6:1-2.

Here the AC comes onto the scene. Some eschatology teachers say the bow with no arrows indicate that AC will use diplomacy for peace. Signaling the confirming of the covenant with many, involving Israel. Does AC have authority and power at this point to do this? Is he the world leader at this point?

What I understand is for AC to make this covenant
The signing of the covenant begins the tribulation, but in the middle of the seven year tribulation AC breaks the covenant and he turns on Israel set to kill them.
"He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him."
Daniel 9:27

I've had no problem understand all of this. Here's where my head starts getting itchy.
Now some escotology teachers have said that the book of Revelation is in chronological order. I'm posting a link to an article from Pete Garcia from RF below.
I thought it made sense for Revelation to be on chronological order until reading Chapter 17.
12 “The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but who for one hour will receive authority as kings along with the beast. 13 They have one purpose and will give their power and authority to the beast. 14 They will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”
Revelation 17:12-14
By reading these verses I got thrown off the order of the Antichrist seeing that he comes on to the scene in Revelation 6:1-2 at the breaking of the first seal. But not until chapter 17 is AC given power and authority. So it has me wondering,
If the book of Revelation is in chronological order then if the rider on the white horse at the breaking of the first seal, he does come onto the scene but according to Revelation 17:12-14 he doesn't have his authority when the first seal is broken. That leads me to more questions. If Revelation is in chronological order then this would mean AC doesn't receive authority until after the seals, trumpets, and bowls judgements, and according to Revelation 17:12 the One world government is in power for a short period of time, "one hour", and gives the beast, AC, his authority and power to wage war against the coming King if Kings Jesus and his saints layed out in chapter 19, this is Jesus second coming.
I'm confused as to when the AC has authority and power. Looking at when AC is revealed after the rapture, is this the breaking of the first seal?

Is Daniel 7:7-8 lined up with the horseman on the white horse, and 2 Thessalonians 2:5-8 when he's revealed, or with Revelation 17:12-14 when the ten kings give AC the power and authority? Wouldn't AC have power and authority to confirm the covenant?
That Revelation 17 has me confused about whether Revelation is in chronological order. If you can help me understand Revelation 17:12-14 if all the Judgements would pass then AC be given power and authority by the ten king government. Thank you

This is an excerpt taken from an article by Pete Garcia where he says that John wrote the Revelation in chronological order.
"The Apostle John was given the Revelation in a highly symbolized, but also decidedly chronological and structured order of events beginning with the things he saw (the resurrected and glorified Christ), the things which are (the seven churches), and the things after this (after the Church age), which include the Seal, Trumpet, and Bowl Judgments (Rev. 1:19). Then that is followed by Armageddon, the visible Second Coming, the millennial reign of Christ, and eternity-future."
https://www.raptureforums.com/pete-garcia/undertow/
 

Lovin Jesus

Well-Known Member
I believe the 3 sets of judgments are in chronological order, which if true, blows away some popular ideas about how things are going to go down during Tribulation. The rest of it varies, IMHO.
I can see where the Judgements would be in chronological order. But it has me wondering about that Rev. 17 because if this is when the AC received the power and authority that would be when he becomes world leader to go with Daniel 9. But if this is the case then if Rev 17 comes after the Judgements, that to me throws off other things in the timeline like when the AC is revealed, leaving me wondering just how long before the rapture. I guess I need to just get an understanding of Rev 17 alone and it's timing with respect to the timing of when AC is revealed.
 

Jan51

Well-Known Member
There are many views on Revelation. I think that there is a kind of chronological order but not a strict order. I have wondered if the various sevens may be seen as overlays, rather than strictly following one another. We do know chapter 13 is the midpoint because of the abomination of desolation.

Dan. 9 says the AC makes or confirms a covenant which begins the seven years, so that must be the rider on the white horse. At the beginning of the seven years he must become head of the revived Roman Empire, which has already come together as the ten kings. At the midpoint, at the abomination of desolation, John then calls him the beast--the Roman Empire (the ten king system) and its economy gives way to the beast kingdom and the mark system, which only lasts a short time--three and a half years. I think Rev. 17 and 18 give the detailed account of how that goes down. We often find the pattern in the Bible of the overview followed by a detail from the overview.

I may be wrong though!
 

Lovin Jesus

Well-Known Member
Rev. Chapter 13 describes Daniel 7:7. So the ten horned kingdom is in place and here's where the AC is in this ten horned kingdom. If here the AC has authority over the earth then I don't know why he needs to be given authority by the ten horned kingdom again in Chapter 17. I understand pretty much of Revelation it's this Chapter 17 that has me not understanding and why the AC is given authority multiple times. Doesn't he just need to be given authority once? Lol I give up. I pass
 

Lovin Jesus

Well-Known Member
After reading the comments on Pete Garcia's Day of Reckoning article if there's going to be a timeframe of "normalcy" during the tribulation before the second coming then my question is answered that Revelation is not in chronological order after reading the chapters just prior to Chapter 19, the second coming doesn't seem like normalcy to me, I lost count of how may times it says "woe" in chapter 18.
 

Matthew6:33

Withstand in the evil day. Eph 6:13
"I watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals. Then I heard one of the four living creatures say in a voice like thunder, “Come!” 2 I looked, and there before me was a white horse! Its rider held a bow, and he was given a crown, and he rode out as a conqueror bent on conquest."
Revelation 6:1-2.

Here the AC comes onto the scene. Some eschatology teachers say the bow with no arrows indicate that AC will use diplomacy for peace. Signaling the confirming of the covenant with many, involving Israel. Does AC have authority and power at this point to do this? Is he the world leader at this point?
I think this portion signals the rise of the antichrist. He is definitely given some form of authority at this point. He is given a crown, riding out for conquest. As far as signaling for the rapture, I believe the rapture has to happen before this. AC will be known at this point, just not at the height of his power. Rev is definitely in chronological order, it is just difficult to sort it all out sometimes. Some things are spiritual, some things are on earth, some things are in heaven.

There are a couple cool charts on the homepage that I like to reference sometimes. Maybe it can give you some more insight. It helps me because I am more of a visual learner.
https://www.raptureforums.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/23-compared.gif
https://www.raptureforums.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/22-revelation.gif
 

Lovin Jesus

Well-Known Member
I think this portion signals the rise of the antichrist. He is definitely given some form of authority at this point. He is given a crown, riding out for conquest. As far as signaling for the rapture, I believe the rapture has to happen before this. AC will be known at this point, just not at the height of his power. Rev is definitely in chronological order, it is just difficult to sort it all out sometimes. Some things are spiritual, some things are on earth, some things are in heaven.

There are a couple cool charts on the homepage that I like to reference sometimes. Maybe it can give you some more insight. It helps me because I am more of a visual learner.
https://www.raptureforums.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/23-compared.gif
https://www.raptureforums.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/22-revelation.gif
I have thought Revelation is in chronological order. I am familiar about the AC as I cited the verses pertaining to AC. The only problem I have is Chapter 17:21-22? As I explained that in these verses the ten horned kingdom gives power and authority to the beast. So my question was why is he given power and authority here again after he comes at the breaking of the first seal and is apparently in power in Rev 13. If the book is in chronological order my question is why does Rev. 17:12 again say the OWG gives power and authority to the AC, and why is it that the OWG wasn't even implemented yet? I'd just like to get that verse timeline explained so I can understand how it fits with the other verses I have cited about the AC. Take note if what verse 12 says here:
"The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but who for one hour will receive authority as kings along with the beast."
Do you notice it says that the ten kings have not yet received a kingdom"? If the chronological order is correct why is it saying the ten kings have not received the kingdom yet? This seems to mean the One world government hasn't been implemented yet.
Do you have the explanation of what this means?
 

Matthew6:33

Withstand in the evil day. Eph 6:13
"I watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals. Then I heard one of the four living creatures say in a voice like thunder, “Come!” 2 I looked, and there before me was a white horse! Its rider held a bow, and he was given a crown, and he rode out as a conqueror bent on conquest."
Revelation 6:1-2.
This is when the AC is revealed, post rapture. He rode out to conquer bent on conquest. He is already given a crown (authority) at this point, his revelation. This is the beginning of his rise to power.

2 Thes 2:5-8 is talking about AC's revelation, it does not say anything about the OWG or the 10 kings and their kingdoms:

[2Th 2:6-8 NASB95] 6 And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains [will do so] until he is taken out of the way. 8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;

"The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but who for one hour will receive authority as kings along with the beast."
Do you notice it says that the ten kings have not yet received a kingdom"? If the chronological order is correct why is it saying the ten kings have not received the kingdom yet? This seems to mean the One world government hasn't been implemented yet.
The 10 kings will be the future "regional rulers" of the world and they will rule for a short period of time. Remember Daniel's vision says the feet/10 toes (representing the "10 kingdoms" or regions) are made of iron and clay, meaning they appear strong but are truly very weak and will rule for only a short time.

The angel is further explaining what the ten horns mean to John, specifying future as in the future from John's time. In the future each one of these horns represents a region of the world, ruled by a politician (king). This will happen in the future, after the rapture and after the AC is revealed (Rev 6).

This is my understanding and it leaves the chronology of Rev in tact in my mind.

I am still learning a lot, trying to finish studying Daniel before I study Revelation. Maybe this helps you? I know I have heard a really good sermon on this I just can't recall all of the details because there is a lot there. After Daniel I plan to tackle Andy Woods series on Revelation. God bless.
 
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Lovin Jesus

Well-Known Member
This is when the AC is revealed, post rapture. He rode out to conquer bent on conquest. He is already given a crown (authority) at this point, his revelation. This is the beginning of his rise to power.

2 Thes 2:5-8 is talking about AC's revelation, it does not say anything about the OWG or the 10 kings and their kingdoms:

[2Th 2:6-8 NASB95] 6 And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains [will do so] until he is taken out of the way. 8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;


The 10 kings will be the future "regional rulers" of the world and they will rule for a short period of time. Remember Daniel's vision says the feet/10 toes (representing the "10 kingdoms" or regions) are made of iron and clay, meaning they appear strong but are truly very weak and will rule for only a short time.

The angel is further explaining what the ten horns mean to John, specifying future as in the future from John's time. In the future each one of these horns represents a region of the world, ruled by a politician (king). This will happen in the future, after the rapture and after the AC is revealed (Rev 6).

This is my understanding and it leaves the chronology of Rev in tact in my mind.

I am still learning a lot, trying to finish studying Daniel before I study Revelation. Maybe this helps you? I know I have heard a really good sermon on this I just can't recall all of the details because there is a lot there. After Daniel I plan to tackle Andy Woods series on Revelation. God bless.
I had what you mentioned understood. My trouble is understanding Rev. 17:12. I only mentioned all of the other texts to point out where I see the AC in power, except for the first seal which seems like there's a period of time before he is in power. I pointed out to the first part of Rev 17:12 saying the ten kings "have not been given a kingdom yet". This is what has me asking the question about chronological order.
 

Lovin Jesus

Well-Known Member
I really appreciate the replies but I think it's my fault that I outlined too many verses that appears like I am having trouble with all of the verses I cited but the Only one I am having the trouble with is limited to just Revelation 17:2. I just need to understand why it says the ten kings have not been given the kingdom yet if Revelation is in chronological order. This is what I need clarification with.
 

Matthew6:33

Withstand in the evil day. Eph 6:13
I really appreciate the replies but I think it's my fault that I outlined too many verses that appears like I am having trouble with all of the verses I cited but the Only one I am having the trouble with is limited to just Revelation 17:2. I just need to understand why it says the ten kings have not been given the kingdom yet if Revelation is in chronological order. This is what I need clarification with.

[Rev 17:7-12 NLT]
7 "Why are you so amazed?" the angel asked. "I will tell you the mystery of this woman and of the beast with seven heads and ten horns on which she sits.
8 The beast you saw was once alive but isn't now. And yet he will soon come up out of the bottomless pit and go to eternal destruction. And the people who belong to this world, whose names were not written in the Book of Life before the world was made, will be amazed at the reappearance of this beast who had died.
9 "This calls for a mind with understanding: The seven heads of the beast represent the seven hills where the woman rules. They also represent seven kings.
10 Five kings have already fallen, the sixth now reigns, and the seventh is yet to come, but his reign will be brief.
11 "The scarlet beast that was, but is no longer, is the eighth king. He is like the other seven, and he, too, is headed for destruction.
12 The ten horns of the beast are ten kings who have not yet risen to power. They will be appointed to their kingdoms for one brief moment to reign with the beast.
13 They will all agree to give him their power and authority.
14 Together they will go to war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will defeat them because he is Lord of all lords and King of all kings. And his called and chosen and faithful ones will be with him."


How I understand it is that an angel is explaining this to John in John's time (v7). The end-game purpose of this consolidation of power is to go to war with Jesus (v13-14). Remember at the time of this explanation, these kings have not been revealed yet. This is why the angel tells John that they have not been given their kingdoms yet (v12). Not that they don't have their kingdoms in the chronology of Revelation (I think they will all exist at that time and have some form of management over each of their regions?), but that they don't have their kingdoms yet in John's time, that is to say they do not exist yet at the time of this Revelation to John. I don't know if this is making any sense but this is how I understand it.

Maybe someone else can explain it better?
 

Lovin Jesus

Well-Known Member
[Rev 17:7-12 NLT]
7 "Why are you so amazed?" the angel asked. "I will tell you the mystery of this woman and of the beast with seven heads and ten horns on which she sits.
8 The beast you saw was once alive but isn't now. And yet he will soon come up out of the bottomless pit and go to eternal destruction. And the people who belong to this world, whose names were not written in the Book of Life before the world was made, will be amazed at the reappearance of this beast who had died.
9 "This calls for a mind with understanding: The seven heads of the beast represent the seven hills where the woman rules. They also represent seven kings.
10 Five kings have already fallen, the sixth now reigns, and the seventh is yet to come, but his reign will be brief.
11 "The scarlet beast that was, but is no longer, is the eighth king. He is like the other seven, and he, too, is headed for destruction.
12 The ten horns of the beast are ten kings who have not yet risen to power. They will be appointed to their kingdoms for one brief moment to reign with the beast.
13 They will all agree to give him their power and authority.
14 Together they will go to war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will defeat them because he is Lord of all lords and King of all kings. And his called and chosen and faithful ones will be with him."


How I understand it is that an angel is explaining this to John in John's time (v7). The end-game purpose of this consolidation of power is to go to war with Jesus (v13-14). Remember at the time of this explanation, these kings have not been revealed yet. This is why the angel tells John that they have not been given their kingdoms yet (v12). Not that they don't have their kingdoms in the chronology of Revelation (I think they will all exist at that time and have some form of management over each of their regions?), but that they don't have their kingdoms yet in John's time, that is to say they do not exist yet at the time of this Revelation to John. I don't know if this is making any sense but this is how I understand it.

Maybe someone else can explain it better?
The way you explain it, it does make sense.
 

Lovin Jesus

Well-Known Member
I am thinking when Daniel was told in Daniel chapter 12 that he should write and at the time of the end people would increase in knowledge, I tend to believe that knowledge isn't limited to secular knowledge but also in biblical knowledge. I apply this to over generations and in recent years that escotology scholars have understood more clearly bible prophecy since the rebirth of Israel as a nation and as the birth pains have increased over time. I think that there are some things that may not be completely clear in regards to the prophecies in Revelation until that time comes and those who are in that time will understand more clearly than we do at this time. I'll be satisfied with that and I will stop scratching my head, lol.
 
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mattfivefour

Well-Known Member
Glad to see everybody using the proper title Revelation and not the often-used Revelations in referring to this book. . There is only one Revelation ... and it is the Revelation of Jesus Christ. It is revealing Him in the entire scope of history from beginning to end.

Thus it IS chronological in its overview.

However --and this is crucial to understand-- there are parenthetical inserts along the way, either flashing back to introduce certain things at an appropriate point, or (as @Jan51 points out) sometimes to give the detailed account of how something previously mentioned actually plays out.

British Bible teacher Jeff Unsworth describes it nicely:

"The insertion of parenthetical chapters at intervals in the timeline, is the writers way of highlighting or giving extra information of events that occur within the timeline or events that are happening at the same time. I.e: What is happening in Heaven at the same time as things are happening on earth.​

"Remember a parenthetical remark or in this case a Chapter, is said in addition to the main part of what you are saying.​

"Which chapters are parenthetical chapters in the Book of Revelation?​
"Chapter 7: The sealing of the 144000 and the appearing of the Tribulation saints in Heaven . Additional information, that happens between the 6th and 7th Seal.​
"Chapters 12, 13, 14: A recap of what happened in the Great Tribulation of Chapters 5 and 6.​
"Chapters 17 & 18: Information re The fall of Babylon, which occurs during the end of the Great Tribulation and the Wrath of God, which is from the end of Chapter 6 to Chapter 11."​

In the main I agree with Jeff's view.

Anyway, I hope this information helps with anybody's reading of this fascinating book.
 

Lovin Jesus

Well-Known Member
Glad to see everybody using the proper title Revelation and not the often-used Revelations in referring to this book. . There is only one Revelation ... and it is the Revelation of Jesus Christ. It is revealing Him in the entire scope of history from beginning to end.

Thus it IS chronological in its overview.

However --and this is crucial to understand-- there are parenthetical inserts along the way, either flashing back to introduce certain things at an appropriate point, or (as @Jan51 points out) sometimes to give the detailed account of how something previously mentioned actually plays out.

British Bible teacher Jeff Unsworth describes it nicely:

"The insertion of parenthetical chapters at intervals in the timeline, is the writers way of highlighting or giving extra information of events that occur within the timeline or events that are happening at the same time. I.e: What is happening in Heaven at the same time as things are happening on earth.​

"Remember a parenthetical remark or in this case a Chapter, is said in addition to the main part of what you are saying.​

"Which chapters are parenthetical chapters in the Book of Revelation?​
"Chapter 7: The sealing of the 144000 and the appearing of the Tribulation saints in Heaven . Additional information, that happens between the 6th and 7th Seal.​
"Chapters 12, 13, 14: A recap of what happened in the Great Tribulation of Chapters 5 and 6.​
"Chapters 17 & 18: Information re The fall of Babylon, which occurs during the end of the Great Tribulation and the Wrath of God, which is from the end of Chapter 6 to Chapter 11."​

In the main I agree with Jeff's view.

Anyway, I hope this information helps with anybody's reading of this fascinating book.
Thanks
 
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