Is replacement theology satanic?

athenasius

Well-Known Member
I was just curious.
I agree. I always thought Elijah and Enoch, but entertained Moses as one of the two.
Sister, can you imagine the power of their testimony and preaching!
It will be AWESOME in the truest Biblical sense of the word AWESOME! It will be something I hope we can observe snippets from the bleachers high above. I can just imagine the way that will impact the Jews who hear them and see the miracles that they perform. And how angry that will make the AC and the Jezebel Harlot false church of that time. I think heaven will be singing Amen and Hallelujah and Glory to the Lamb as they preach. The echoes of thunder from God's voice will be reverberating thru their sermons.
 

ItIsFinished!

Well-Known Member
It will be AWESOME in the truest Biblical sense of the word AWESOME! It will be something I hope we can observe snippets from the bleachers high above. I can just imagine the way that will impact the Jews who hear them and see the miracles that they perform. And how angry that will make the AC and the Jezebel Harlot false church of that time. I think heaven will be singing Amen and Hallelujah and Glory to the Lamb as they preach. The echoes of thunder from God's voice will be reverberating thru their sermons.
YES!!!
Hallelujah, hallelujah, hallelujah!!!
Glory to The Lamb of God that was slain BEFORE the foundation of the world!
 

Accepted

Well-Known Member
Accepted, could you expound on the foreknowledge paragraph you wrote a bit? I ordered the book already and am looking forward to reading it, but a little more understanding today would be greatly appreciated.
What I meant was that, since God exists outside of time, He sees the end from the beginning, and knows who will choose him. Those He foreknew, He predestined to be conformed to the likeness of His son. (Romans8:29). He knew us already, because He knew we would receive His gift of salvation. Once we choose Him, we’re destined ahead of time (or pre-destined) to begin sanctification, the process of becoming more like Jesus. “He who began a good work in you will be faithful to complete it.” (Philippians 1:6).

In contrast, the “U” in TULIP is “Unconditional Election,” meaning God chooses whom He will for salvation or damnation, with no conditions, meaning having nothing to do with His foreknowledge or who chooses Him. They say it’s prideful to say you chose Him, and it’s a “work.” Well, Jesus said, when asked what men must do to do the work God requires, He answered, “The work of God is this: to believe on the one he has sent.” (John 6:28-29). In other words, you can’t earn it, if you want to call it a “work,” just believe! How is it prideful to simply accept a gift? It’s not. Jesus paid it all.

So Calvinism says that we are like puppets on a string, and it’s all decided for us. Then why does God treat mankind, from Genesis to Revelation, as if we do have a choice? Why did Jesus cry, “Oh Jerusalem, Jerusalem... how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.” (Matthew 23:37).
 

LisaJoe1986

Well-Known Member
What I meant was that, since God exists outside of time, He sees the end from the beginning, and knows who will choose him. Those He foreknew, He predestined to be conformed to the likeness of His son. (Romans8:29). He knew us already, because He knew we would receive His gift of salvation. Once we choose Him, we’re destined ahead of time (or pre-destined) to begin sanctification, the process of becoming more like Jesus. “He who began a good work in you will be faithful to complete it.” (Philippians 1:6).

In contrast, the “U” in TULIP is “Unconditional Election,” meaning God chooses whom He will for salvation or damnation, with no conditions, meaning having nothing to do with His foreknowledge or who chooses Him. They say it’s prideful to say you chose Him, and it’s a “work.” Well, Jesus said, when asked what men must do to do the work God requires, He answered, “The work of God is this: to believe on the one he has sent.” (John 6:28-29). In other words, you can’t earn it, if you want to call it a “work,” just believe! How is it prideful to simply accept a gift? It’s not. Jesus paid it all.

So Calvinism says that we are like puppets on a string, and it’s all decided for us. Then why does God treat mankind, from Genesis to Revelation, as if we do have a choice? Why did Jesus cry, “Oh Jerusalem, Jerusalem... how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.” (Matthew 23:37).
Thank you. This all agrees, I think, with the meta-narrative of scripture. The verses quoted today were from Romans 9 on Esau and Jacob and Pharoah. Those have always tripped me up a bit and although I have wanted to understand them I chalked them up to my own human inability. One thing I did notice recently is that Pharoah hardened his own heart 3 or 4 times before God hardened it. It was like he gave him the option to obey a few times and becasue he didn't, God used Him for His purposes. That lines up a bit with God turning us over to ourselves as explained in Romans 1. It seems to me the reason why He loved Jacob and hated Esau may have been the small, minor detail that He knew the messiah would come through His seed!

My hubby also just reminded me of Joshua saying, "Choose you this day who you will serve." I see that type of thing over and over. He gave Cain the chance to offer an acceptable sacrifice. God tries so hard to offer His grace.

I thank you very much for the help and look forward to reading the book.
 
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athenasius

Well-Known Member
The verses quoted today were from Romans 9 on Esau and Jacob and Pharoah. Those have always tripped me up a bit and although I have wanted to understand them I chalked them up to my own human inability. One thing I did notice recently is that Pharoah hardened his own heart 3 or 4 times before God hardened it. It was like he gave him the option to obey a few times and becasue he didn't, God used Him for His purposes. That lines up a bit with God turning us over to ourselves as explained in Romans 1. It seems to me the reason why He loved Jacob and hated Esau may have been the small, minor detail that He knew the messiah would come through His seed!

My hubby also just reminded me of Joshua saying, "Choose you this day who you will serve." I see that type of thing over and over. He gave Cain the chance to offer an acceptable sacrifice. God tries so hard to offer His grace.
You are so right, and so is your husband. You chose God.

The examples of Pharoah and Esau, you have the answer with your understanding of Pharoah. He chose to disobey God. You can practically see him wavering a few times, but his heart turns and God allows him to go in a hardened condition to Pharoah's own hearts desire. It's interesting because it's like the progression of a seared conscience. It's Pharoah's desire all along. The choice just confirms what's in the heart. And eventually God gives Pharoah his heart's desire, and the judgement that rightly goes with that choice.

Ah but Esau is a whole nother interesting case. I was like you wondering how God could say that, hating one, loving the other. But He gives them equal opportunity to choose God, choose life over Sin and Judgement.

With Esau God foreknew Esau would reject God as he rejected the birthright as worth only a bowl of lentils (the pottage or porridge that Jacob used to buy that birthright).

No seared conscience needed, unlike Pharoah Esau didn't care. Till later. When it came time for his dad to pass on the blessing before death. Then he ran out to get his dad some game to give a feast that Isaac wanted. He came back to find he'd been cheated of that opportunity to buy back the blessing (for a good meal AGAIN!)

Esau was upset to the point of wanting to kill his brother. That murderous intent was passed down to the Edomites. The non canonical historical records of the Jews are very clear on how Esau taught his sons to hate their cousins. Jacob went to his mother's people and got his wives Leah and Rachel. After a long time he came back with 11 sons and a daughter and on the way he wrestled with God. Again, for that blessing.

Esau was like Judas putting a price on the priceless matchless KING Jesus --he was valued by Judas and the High Priest/Temple officials as worth only 30 peices of silver that was foretold in Zechariah here: Where God is showing His foreknowledge of the heart and intent of Judas and the High Priest/Pharisees who paid him for Jesus betrayal.

Zechariah 11:12-13 New International Version (NIV)
12 I told them, “If you think it best, give me my pay; but if not, keep it.” So they paid me thirty pieces of silver.
13 And the Lord said to me, “Throw it to the potter”—the handsome price at which they valued me! So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them to the potter at the house of the Lord.

In Esau's case, he valued his birthright (which entitled him to all the blessings going down thru the Abrahamic line as well as an earthly inheritance) so poorly that he didn't even pay 30 pieces of silver for it. A bowl of lentils was all it took.

As each of the line descending from Isaac well knew, this inheritance, the birthright involved a relationship with God. This was no inheritance of some tents, some sheep, a camel or two and some family heirlooms. They all knew this involved a close covenant relationship with God Himself.

This would include (according to some historical sources that are being confirmed thru the discover of the Dead Sea Scrolls) various writings from Noah, thru Eber, down to Abraham, then Isaac. Those documents and the understanding of the history of the world from Adam to Noah and Noah to Isaac were part of that birthright. It would pass from Jacob to his sons, where the priestly line of Levi and the kingly line of Judah were confirmed thru prophecy given by Jacob to his sons as he lay dying. Each of the sons would have given blessing and birthright to their sons after them. And thru Levi we see Moses arise. Moses then wrote down the Pentateuch. The first 5 books of the Bible. Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy.

Esau would have known of the promise to Abraham by God, and how the child of promise was ISAAC not Ishmael. The son of Sarah, not the son of Hagar. Because even though Hagar's son was born first, he wasn't of the line God promised. God's promise would come thru Sarah. Not Hagar.

The Bible records that Esau regretted doing this and that he fully expected to get that blessing and inheritance from Isaac later but it also records that his marriages brought his parents grief, that he lived more like his half uncle Ishmael than his father Isaac. His later life proved that he didn't want that birthright to have that relationship with God, because he could have had that on his own, just not being part of the line that would bring the Saviour. Yet his behaviour shows that didn't concern him, so likely as not it was the physical inheritance that was all he wanted.

In contrast to Esau who didn't care enough to keep his birthright ---

---there is Jacob who would do whatever it took to gain that birthright because he valued it more than family or reputation. He saw an opportunity to gain the blessing, which to him meant the blessing of God and the line that God would bless down thru the generations. He took his opportunity and his mother Rebecca had the wisdom to see her son's heart and his desire for that blessing, and in that desire he was desiring GOD.

Jacob valued GOD. He and Rebecca hatched their plan to make sure that Isaac would bless Jacob rather than Esau while Esau was out hunting. Yes he probably also wanted the physical inheritance but look what happens MANY years later when Jacob wrestles with God.

Genesis 32:22-32 shows that Jacob wrestles demanding THE BLESSING.
24 So Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him till daybreak. 25 When the man saw that he could not overpower him, he touched the socket of Jacob’s hip so that his hip was wrenched as he wrestled with the man. 26 Then the man said, “Let me go, for it is daybreak.” But Jacob replied, “I will not let you go unless you bless me.”

In Hosea 12 v 2-5 we see it is God that Jacob struggled with.

The Lord has a charge to bring against Judah;
he will punish Jacob according to his ways
and repay him according to his deeds.
3 In the womb he grasped his brother’s heel;
as a man he struggled with God.
4 He struggled with the angel and overcame him;
he wept and begged for his favor.
He found him at Bethel
and talked with him there—
5 the Lord God Almighty,
the Lord is his name!

Jacob (and Rebecca) valued GOD more than anything else and God saw their hearts. The methods were sketchy. Like Rahab the Harlot, who preserved the lives of the spies by a big fat old lie, they had one thing in mind, and that was to gain God and His blessing.

And Jacob remained in that mindset. Even when God tested him by wrestling with him. Jacob wouldn't give up. God put his hip out over that ---possibly in my opinion looking at that passage, but I may be wrong--- to stop him killing himself in the contest.

Because Jacob won't give up. Even if it cost his life. Because the BLESSING of GOD mattered more to him than life itself. Now in this contest, there is no physical rewards. No camels, goats, sheep or other wealth.

This is God's blessing that Jacob puts his own life and strength on the line for. He is IN IT TO WIN IT.

And God foreknew. But in both lives, Esau and Jacob God allows that moment of choice that they both come to. And Esau's choice is to say that God is worthless to him. He proves it with his life after selling the birthright and after Isaac's death as well. He teaches his sons to feel dispossessed, and to envy the blessing of their cousins, just as Ishmael did. They are not content with the blessings and the land that God DID give THEM, they want the rest of it too. But without having to serve God.

In Jacob's case, at every turn of his life, he does whatever it takes to grab hold and hang on to God's Blessing and he doesn't even care if he is wrestling to his death, he is going to get that blessing because GOD matters that much to him.

Such a contrast, and God saw it before the foundations of the world were laid, yet He gave them chances to choose otherwise. And they went their separate ways.

I've always loved that attitude. May not go about it the right way (Rahab too) but they WANT GOD and will pay any price to become part of God's people. I heard a sermon on Tamar and Judah and how she wanted to be blessed with children that were of her and of the line of Judah. She finally took things into her own hands and produced twins, and her descendant is Jesus. Ruth the Moabite who values Naomi's people and wants her place in the line, and she too is there.

Women who hung on and got blessed. Then there's that wonderful gentile who Jesus tests by telling her He can't give the children's bread to dogs, but she quips back about licking up the crumbs, and Jesus gives her the blessing she wanted.

I love this from Got Questions on that situation. https://www.gotquestions.org/Canaanite-woman-dog.html

God loves it when we chase after Him and value Him above all else. When we persist. When we persist in prayer, persist in His Word, persist in loving Him and serving Him. Yes He gives us the strength to follow thru. All He wants is our choice to choose HIM.

And you and your husband have!
 
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lenraff

Well-Known Member
I don't know. I waver between Elijah and Moses, or Elijah and Enoch.

I'm sure one is Elijah because of that thing Jesus said about John the Baptist in his position as last of the OT prophets and the forerunner who prepares the way of the Lord.

John did that before Christ's first coming-- he came as a type of Elijah who will come again to prepare the way of the Lord before His Second Coming to end the Trib

And I expect a literal Elijah to be given to the Jews to preach in Jerusalem for the first half of the Tribulation but who is the second, I don't know. Both positions have very good arguments in their favour.
I lean towards Enoch and Elijah also, only because of the devil disputing over Moses's body.
 

ItIsFinished!

Well-Known Member
What I meant was that, since God exists outside of time, He sees the end from the beginning, and knows who will choose him. Those He foreknew, He predestined to be conformed to the likeness of His son. (Romans8:29). He knew us already, because He knew we would receive His gift of salvation. Once we choose Him, we’re destined ahead of time (or pre-destined) to begin sanctification, the process of becoming more like Jesus. “He who began a good work in you will be faithful to complete it.” (Philippians 1:6).

In contrast, the “U” in TULIP is “Unconditional Election,” meaning God chooses whom He will for salvation or damnation, with no conditions, meaning having nothing to do with His foreknowledge or who chooses Him. They say it’s prideful to say you chose Him, and it’s a “work.” Well, Jesus said, when asked what men must do to do the work God requires, He answered, “The work of God is this: to believe on the one he has sent.” (John 6:28-29). In other words, you can’t earn it, if you want to call it a “work,” just believe! How is it prideful to simply accept a gift? It’s not. Jesus paid it all.

So Calvinism says that we are like puppets on a string, and it’s all decided for us. Then why does God treat mankind, from Genesis to Revelation, as if we do have a choice? Why did Jesus cry, “Oh Jerusalem, Jerusalem... how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.” (Matthew 23:37).
My dear friend you explained that quite well.
So pleased you are not a calvinist.
 

Len

Well-Known Member
it teaches that the church is a replacement for Israel and all the promises made to Israel in the Bible are now fulfilled in the church and not in Israel ....
 

GotGrace

Well-Known Member
LisaJoe, you are asking exactly the right questions! I recommend a good book on the subject, entitled “What Love is This?” by Dave Hunt.

I’ll just make a few main points, but I really encourage you to look into this in-depth, because it is vital to understand what’s happening in your church. Like I said, it happened to us, too. First, the term “neo-Calvinism” refers to the current popular version of Calvinism, which not only includes replacement theology, but often also strong patriarchal themes, membership commitments that are considered sometimes to be legally binding, and authoritarian church discipline. Of course, the level of these things differs according to the pastor.

Basically, they disregard the place of God’s foreknowledge in election, predestination, being chosen, and in every aspect of salvation. Passages such as Romans 8:29 and 1 Peter 1:2, for example, are specific about the Lord’s foreknowledge being involved in salvation.

If you study the TULIP acronym, it’s pretty clear. Calvinism teaches that Christ did not die for everyone, but only for the ‘elect.’ His grace is “Irresistible,” literally, meaning it cannot be resisted, and we have no choice in the matter. The rest are predestined to an eternity in hell and have no choice about that either.

This is a very silly illustration, and could be much improved, but I tend to think of it this way: A father has five children. He builds a lovely swimming pool in the backyard. He then tosses three of his children into the sparkling, clear water on a hot day. He says to the other two children, I did not build this for you, only for them. There is no reason, I just don’t want you to have this.

Whereas the Good Father has the same number of children, and builds the same lovely pool. He says, I have built this beautiful pool for you! Whoever wishes to enjoy it, do! Three of his children jump in, and two refuse the gift. The Father encourages the two to enjoy what he’s done for them, but they will not. They choose to reject the gift and never get to enjoy it.

I think you’d get a lot out of “What Love is This?”
Yes that is how I understood Calvinism from Dr. Jerry Vines (retired from First Baptist in Jacksonville). I don’t understand how Calvinism has gained such a foothold again in the churches and seminaries. Then again I know the evil one is hard at work trying to destroy the church and appears to be doing a pretty good job of it.
 

ItIsFinished!

Well-Known Member
Yes that is how I understood Calvinism from Dr. Jerry Vines (retired from First Baptist in Jacksonville). I don’t understand how Calvinism has gained such a foothold again in the churches and seminaries. Then again I know the evil one is hard at work trying to destroy the church and appears to be doing a pretty good job of it.
Yup.
Satan is very, very crafty and very cunning.
I'll tell you this , he will NEVER destroy The Body of Christ.
 

Mikedexion

Well-Known Member
Thanks. I was always taught that Israel is a type of the church. Aren't Jews who got saved, like Paul, in the church? If so, did they lose their promises?
Israel can be referred to as a shadow or type of the church as it gives us a blueprint of how God established a covenant with a people who were called out of the world at the time.

But as far as promises go Israel and the church have different destiny's and roles in Gods plan of salvation for mankind. Israel was supposed to be the church but once Israel rejected Jesus Christ around the time Steven was stoned God turned it to mostly gentiles and the Day of the Lord has been put on pause ever since as the age of the Church started.

The nation of Israel and the remnant of the seed of Jacob still have unfulfilled prophecy and is still part of God's plan of salvation but one did not replace the other., They are going to have to go through what is called the "Time of Trouble" in order to be redeemed since they did reject Jesus Christ. The Age of Grace will end and the laws of Moses will be in effect again once the church leaves. Gentiles who find Jesus in the Tribulation period will have to hold on to their faith even if it costs them their life. Israel will have a new temple and begin sacrifices and offerings as usual. Except this time they will be fooled by the Antichrist until the point where he sits in the temple and declares himself to be God. Then they will finally have their blinders removed and accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and savior.
 
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