Is replacement theology satanic?

athenasius

Well-Known Member
I just popped in here, because I was 20 minutes into Jan Markell's latest YouTube in which she has some good preachers (Tom Hughes and Brandon Holthaus) discussing what they call Prophecy Derangement Syndrome. Meaning the kind of nutty emotional hatred that some of the church has towards dispensational theology and the Rapture. They call it that because of the crazy Trump Derangement Syndrome that a lot of Snowflakes and Leftists seem to suffer from. It's a similar knee jerk anger against those of us who teach a pre trib Rapture followed by a literal Millennial reign of Christ in Jerusalem for 1000 years.

20 minutes in and one of them says something that made me think of this thread.

He said, "what you have to watch out for is not what your pastor and church TEACHES but RATHER WHAT THEY DON'T TEACH!"

In other words, it's not so much about the good stuff that gets taught, that is great but sometimes it's equally important to listen to what NEVER OR RARELY EVER GETS DISCUSSED.

The context of that comment was that a lot of churches just don't want to touch teaching prophecy with a 10 foot pole and how that is leading us into a generation of Christian style Snowflakes who can't handle the meat of the Word, or prophecy and in the context of this thread, I'd include things like why Replacement Theology is dead wrong.

I thought maybe for those of you wrestling with the "my church is ok, but I don't know what they feel about Replacement Theology" or similar subjects like Prophecy, or Creation ---you might really appreciate this YouTube from Jan Markell.

Somebody upthread said something about their pastor avoiding their questions. I was struck by that and wanted to answer in when I had a little more time. Meanwhile I saw this Jan Markell video.

Something I wish I'd been more aware of, was how the church I was going to for the past 2 decades was drifting away from regular old time Baptist theology into the Emergent "conversation" and following Church Growth stuff and the Purpose Driven that was driving us away from good solid verse by verse expository teaching, combined with an agreement with Dispensationalism, the Pre Mil Pre Trib Rapture, and 6 day Creation (young earth).

If I'd sat down and thought about this question "WHAT ISN'T being taught?" or WHAT DOES YOUR CHURCH/PASTOR AVOID? I'd have figured things out earlier.

Sometimes churches and leaders drift.

And sometimes it's not really YOU leaving the church building they gather in, but it's THEM LEAVING BIBLICAL TRUTH.

And in that case, cling to Christ, not to friends, family and traditions if those conflict with you following the Lord, and be ready to pick up stakes and move on if your efforts to be heard are ignored or your warnings that they are going down a bad path are just ignored. Find another church that teaches the truth. Start a Bible Study in your home. Gather with like minded people who uphold Biblical Truth.

Remember the CHURCH is really not a building or a group that meets over on 4rth Street, but it's made up of people who LOVE the Lord, and put HIM and HIS WORD first.

But before leaving you must try to be heard. You might be the one voice that turns the tide. And even if you don't get heard right away, even after you have to leave, you can trust God to continue to knock on the doors of their hearts and minds, and the things you said, may yet bear fruit. For that reason it's best to part ways in a friendly and respectful manner.

So if you end up leaving a group that stopped following Christ, and it bothers you REMEMBER THEY LEFT YOU FIRST! When they left off following the Word of God.

It's a difficult but important thought.

Forgive them, and move on. Maintain the friendships, and relationships as best as you can, sometimes it's not possible, but try because you might be able to speak into their hearts and minds later down the road, when they are wondering why the wheels came off the bus at the church, and how come you seemed to know it before them.
 

lenraff

Well-Known Member
I just popped in here, because I was 20 minutes into Jan Markell's latest YouTube in which she has some good preachers (Tom Hughes and Brandon Holthaus) discussing what they call Prophecy Derangement Syndrome. Meaning the kind of nutty emotional hatred that some of the church has towards dispensational theology and the Rapture. They call it that because of the crazy Trump Derangement Syndrome that a lot of Snowflakes and Leftists seem to suffer from. It's a similar knee jerk anger against those of us who teach a pre trib Rapture followed by a literal Millennial reign of Christ in Jerusalem for 1000 years.

20 minutes in and one of them says something that made me think of this thread.

He said, "what you have to watch out for is not what your pastor and church TEACHES but RATHER WHAT THEY DON'T TEACH!"

In other words, it's not so much about the good stuff that gets taught, that is great but sometimes it's equally important to listen to what NEVER OR RARELY EVER GETS DISCUSSED.

The context of that comment was that a lot of churches just don't want to touch teaching prophecy with a 10 foot pole and how that is leading us into a generation of Christian style Snowflakes who can't handle the meat of the Word, or prophecy and in the context of this thread, I'd include things like why Replacement Theology is dead wrong.

I thought maybe for those of you wrestling with the "my church is ok, but I don't know what they feel about Replacement Theology" or similar subjects like Prophecy, or Creation ---you might really appreciate this YouTube from Jan Markell.

Somebody upthread said something about their pastor avoiding their questions. I was struck by that and wanted to answer in when I had a little more time. Meanwhile I saw this Jan Markell video.

Something I wish I'd been more aware of, was how the church I was going to for the past 2 decades was drifting away from regular old time Baptist theology into the Emergent "conversation" and following Church Growth stuff and the Purpose Driven that was driving us away from good solid verse by verse expository teaching, combined with an agreement with Dispensationalism, the Pre Mil Pre Trib Rapture, and 6 day Creation (young earth).

If I'd sat down and thought about this question "WHAT ISN'T being taught?" or WHAT DOES YOUR CHURCH/PASTOR AVOID? I'd have figured things out earlier.

Sometimes churches and leaders drift.

And sometimes it's not really YOU leaving the church building they gather in, but it's THEM LEAVING BIBLICAL TRUTH.

And in that case, cling to Christ, not to friends, family and traditions if those conflict with you following the Lord, and be ready to pick up stakes and move on if your efforts to be heard are ignored or your warnings that they are going down a bad path are just ignored. Find another church that teaches the truth. Start a Bible Study in your home. Gather with like minded people who uphold Biblical Truth.

Remember the CHURCH is really not a building or a group that meets over on 4rth Street, but it's made up of people who LOVE the Lord, and put HIM and HIS WORD first.

But before leaving you must try to be heard. You might be the one voice that turns the tide. And even if you don't get heard right away, even after you have to leave, you can trust God to continue to knock on the doors of their hearts and minds, and the things you said, may yet bear fruit. For that reason it's best to part ways in a friendly and respectful manner.

So if you end up leaving a group that stopped following Christ, and it bothers you REMEMBER THEY LEFT YOU FIRST! When they left off following the Word of God.

It's a difficult but important thought.

Forgive them, and move on. Maintain the friendships, and relationships as best as you can, sometimes it's not possible, but try because you might be able to speak into their hearts and minds later down the road, when they are wondering why the wheels came off the bus at the church, and how come you seemed to know it before them.
Just thought this was timely for this discussion,I've posted this before.
"The Saint Must Walk Alone"

By A.W. Tozer


Most of the Worlds GREAT SOULS have been lonely. Loneliness seems to be one price the saint must pay for his saintliness.

Enoch, Noah, Abraham and Moses all walked a path quite apart from their contemporaries even though many people surrounded them.

The prophets of pre-Christian times differed widely from each other, but one mark they bore in common was their enforced loneliness.

Jesus died alone in the darkness hidden from the sight of mortal man and no one saw Him when He arose triumphant and walked out of the tomb, even though many saw Him afterward and bore witness to what they saw.

The cheerful denial of loneliness proves only that the speaker has never walked with God without the support and encouragement afforded him by society. The sense of companionship that mistakenly attributes to the presence of Christ may and probably does arise from the presence of friendly people. Always remember: you cannot carry a cross in company. Though a vast crowd surrounds a man, his cross is his alone and his carrying of it marks him as a man apart. Society has turned against him; otherwise he would have no cross. No one is a friend to the man with a cross. They all forsook Him and fled.

The loneliness of the Christian results from his walk with God in an ungodly world, a walk that must often take him away from the fellowship of good Christians as well as from the unregenerate world. His God-given instincts cry out for companionship with others who can understand his longings, his aspirations, and his absorption in his love for Christ; and because within his circle of friends there are so few who share his inner experiences he is forced to walk alone.

The man who has passed on into the divine Presence in actual inner experience will not find many who understand him. A certain amount of social fellowship will of course be his as he mingles with religious persons in regular activities of the church, but true spiritual fellowship will be hard to find.

The truly spiritual man is indeed something of an oddity. He lives not for himself but to promote the interests of Another. He seeks to persuade people to give all to his Lord and asks no portion or share for himself. He delights not to be honored but to see his Saviour glorified in the eyes of men. His joy is to see Jesus promoted and himself neglected. He finds few who care to talk about that which is the supreme object of his interest, so he is often silent and preoccupied in the midst of noisy religious shoptalk. For this he earns the reputation of being dull and over-serious, so he is avoided and the gulf between him and society widens. He searches for friends upon whose garments he can detect the smell of myrrh and aloes and cassia out of the ivory palaces, and finding few or none he, like Mary of old, keeps these things in his heart.

It is this very loneliness that throws him back upon God. His inability to find human companionship drives him to seek in God what he can find nowhere else. He learns in inner solitude what he could not have learned in the crowd-that Christ is All in All.

Two things remain to be said about the man that is in this state of loneliness. First, he is not a haughty man, he is not holier-than-thou, and he is not an austere saint. He is likely to feel that he is the least of all men and is sure to blame himself for his loneliness. He wants to share his feelings with others and to open his heart to some like-minded soul who will understand him, but the spiritual climate around him does not encourage it, so he remains silent and tells his grief to God alone.

The second thing is that the lonely saint is not the withdrawn man who hardens himself against human suffering and spends his days contemplating the heavens. The opposite is true. His loneliness makes him sympathetic to the approach of the brokenhearted and the fallen and the sin-bruised. Because he is detached from the world he is all the more able to help it.

The weakness of so many modern Christians is that they feel too much at home in the world. In their effort to achieve restful adjustment to an unregenerate society they have lost their pilgrim character and become an essential part of the very moral order against which they are sent to protest. The world recognizes them (modern Christians) and accepts them for what they are. This is the saddest thing that can be said about them. They are not lonely, but neither are they saints.

- A.W. Tozer
 

lenraff

Well-Known Member
“We need more prophets in our pulpits and less puppets” (Leonard Ravenhill). We need men and women filled with the Spirit of God rather than the things of the world. This battle is for the very soul of our nation. It’s our choice—stand or fall
 

athenasius

Well-Known Member
Len that is one that has comforted me immensely! Tozer tells it like it IS!

I've been thru being excommunicated back in 1998 for standing up against bad theology and yes the Replacement Theology was being taught, without correction from the pulpit, and a lot of New Apostolic Reformation stuff, Toronto Airport Vineyard nonsense etc. That church I later laughingly AND ACCURATELY called "The Little Shop of Heresies" as a joke referring to that 1980s era comedy horror film Little Shop of Horrors with an alien plant that ate people alive. That was traumatic.

We moved away from that city in 1999. Within a year we were going to the Baptist church that we went to till 2 years ago when G and I felt we HAD to leave. We tried and tried to be heard. We left on good terms with all. But we couldn't tolerate the official positions that had come into being in the last few years there.

Genesis Creation was being referred to as Poetic Myth or Story and 6 Day Young Earthers like me and George were "tolerated" but definitely not viewed as having a grasp of the Biblical truth of the matter. Our concerns were ignored.

Noah's Flood had become more poetry and according to the man who now pastors that church, referred to a big localized flood in the Middle East region.

And multiple authors that bothered me from the Emergent crowd were being quoted from the pulpit and the verse by verse exegesis was gone in favour of topical studies and listening to the Emergent crowd "wisdom".

It was hard doing it twice. Not going to lie. But God is faithful to those who love and serve Him. I connected here just a month or two before we left finally, and I have Christian friends and family we are in close contact with. We watch several pastors on YouTube from Jack Hibbs, Tom Hughes, JD Farag, and others on a regular basis. I would like to find a local church that actually teaches what I believe in, but haven't found one. Meanwhile we keep up as best we can and trust God.
 

lenraff

Well-Known Member
Len that is one that has comforted me immensely! Tozer tells it like it IS!

I've been thru being excommunicated back in 1998 for standing up against bad theology and yes the Replacement Theology was being taught, without correction from the pulpit, and a lot of New Apostolic Reformation stuff, Toronto Airport Vineyard nonsense etc. That church I later laughingly AND ACCURATELY called "The Little Shop of Heresies" as a joke referring to that 1980s era comedy horror film Little Shop of Horrors with an alien plant that ate people alive. That was traumatic.

We moved away from that city in 1999. Within a year we were going to the Baptist church that we went to till 2 years ago when G and I felt we HAD to leave. We tried and tried to be heard. We left on good terms with all. But we couldn't tolerate the official positions that had come into being in the last few years there.

Genesis Creation was being referred to as Poetic Myth or Story and 6 Day Young Earthers like me and George were "tolerated" but definitely not viewed as having a grasp of the Biblical truth of the matter. Our concerns were ignored.

Noah's Flood had become more poetry and according to the man who now pastors that church, referred to a big localized flood in the Middle East region.

And multiple authors that bothered me from the Emergent crowd were being quoted from the pulpit and the verse by verse exegesis was gone in favour of topical studies and listening to the Emergent crowd "wisdom".

It was hard doing it twice. Not going to lie. But God is faithful to those who love and serve Him. I connected here just a month or two before we left finally, and I have Christian friends and family we are in close contact with. We watch several pastors on YouTube from Jack Hibbs, Tom Hughes, JD Farag, and others on a regular basis. I would like to find a local church that actually teaches what I believe in, but haven't found one. Meanwhile we keep up as best we can and trust God.
Been in the same boat for years, Brother. Our God is faithful, though and meets us at the side of the bed on our knees, our new church! We'll still drop in a few places now and then to check the pulse, but no longer seek a home church/or family in the brick and mortar venue. Come Lord Jesus!
 

RestInHim

Well-Known Member
Len that is one that has comforted me immensely! Tozer tells it like it IS!

I've been thru being excommunicated back in 1998 for standing up against bad theology and yes the Replacement Theology was being taught, without correction from the pulpit, and a lot of New Apostolic Reformation stuff, Toronto Airport Vineyard nonsense etc. That church I later laughingly AND ACCURATELY called "The Little Shop of Heresies" as a joke referring to that 1980s era comedy horror film Little Shop of Horrors with an alien plant that ate people alive. That was traumatic.

We moved away from that city in 1999. Within a year we were going to the Baptist church that we went to till 2 years ago when G and I felt we HAD to leave. We tried and tried to be heard. We left on good terms with all. But we couldn't tolerate the official positions that had come into being in the last few years there.

Genesis Creation was being referred to as Poetic Myth or Story and 6 Day Young Earthers like me and George were "tolerated" but definitely not viewed as having a grasp of the Biblical truth of the matter. Our concerns were ignored.

Noah's Flood had become more poetry and according to the man who now pastors that church, referred to a big localized flood in the Middle East region.

And multiple authors that bothered me from the Emergent crowd were being quoted from the pulpit and the verse by verse exegesis was gone in favour of topical studies and listening to the Emergent crowd "wisdom".

It was hard doing it twice. Not going to lie. But God is faithful to those who love and serve Him. I connected here just a month or two before we left finally, and I have Christian friends and family we are in close contact with. We watch several pastors on YouTube from Jack Hibbs, Tom Hughes, JD Farag, and others on a regular basis. I would like to find a local church that actually teaches what I believe in, but haven't found one. Meanwhile we keep up as best we can and trust God.

It is hard! But, yes, God is faithful to those who will love and serve Him. We are told to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.

I, like many others could of written what you have wrote here, we are seeing the very words of Scripture come to pass. I truly believe that God has had his hand on me and has guided me and protected me from all that is going on in the church. I listen and watch online as well and have done the same as the o.p. and with the same results, I never got a response and when I have shared God's word it has always been used back on me. Sadly, the hate I have experienced from those in the church, from professing Christians breaks my heart. Many have left their first love, I believe many of these churches are so deeply entrenched in their own agendas and many are deceived and many will be led straight to hell.

I too live in Canada and not too far from Toronto and I remember how many in the church (the Pentecostal) we're entrenched with the Toronto Airport Vineyard.

"The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom" (Prov. 9: 10)
 

ItIsFinished!

Well-Known Member
Len that is one that has comforted me immensely! Tozer tells it like it IS!

I've been thru being excommunicated back in 1998 for standing up against bad theology and yes the Replacement Theology was being taught, without correction from the pulpit, and a lot of New Apostolic Reformation stuff, Toronto Airport Vineyard nonsense etc. That church I later laughingly AND ACCURATELY called "The Little Shop of Heresies" as a joke referring to that 1980s era comedy horror film Little Shop of Horrors with an alien plant that ate people alive. That was traumatic.

We moved away from that city in 1999. Within a year we were going to the Baptist church that we went to till 2 years ago when G and I felt we HAD to leave. We tried and tried to be heard. We left on good terms with all. But we couldn't tolerate the official positions that had come into being in the last few years there.

Genesis Creation was being referred to as Poetic Myth or Story and 6 Day Young Earthers like me and George were "tolerated" but definitely not viewed as having a grasp of the Biblical truth of the matter. Our concerns were ignored.

Noah's Flood had become more poetry and according to the man who now pastors that church, referred to a big localized flood in the Middle East region.

And multiple authors that bothered me from the Emergent crowd were being quoted from the pulpit and the verse by verse exegesis was gone in favour of topical studies and listening to the Emergent crowd "wisdom".

It was hard doing it twice. Not going to lie. But God is faithful to those who love and serve Him. I connected here just a month or two before we left finally, and I have Christian friends and family we are in close contact with. We watch several pastors on YouTube from Jack Hibbs, Tom Hughes, JD Farag, and others on a regular basis. I would like to find a local church that actually teaches what I believe in, but haven't found one. Meanwhile we keep up as best we can and trust God.
So glad you know the truth and promote the truth.
Not to many "churches" these days that teach/preach sound Scriptural truth.
There are some however.
Where I live there are many Bible and Baptist churches that are pre-trib, pre-mill, dispensationalist and their statement of faith declares that and they teach sound Scripture.
I'm going to pray that you and your husband can find a Scripturally sound church that glorifies our Lord.
Through your many wonderful posts it is no secret that you are Scripturally grounded and that you love the Lord.
That thrills my heart very much.
I would love to read some of your husbands posts.
;)

Peace in our Saviours name.
 

lenraff

Well-Known Member
it's sister actually. I'm Margery aka Athenasius, and the other half is George but he rarely posts in. I keep him up to date every day when he says "so what's new on Rapture Forums?" And yes, I think we go to that same "church". Every night.
Nice to meet you in this place Sister and Hi to brother George, God Bless. Marlene and I will mention y'all at our church later!
 

LisaJoe1986

Well-Known Member
Neo-Calvinism has infiltrated most Southern Baptist seminaries now, unfortunately, and Al Mohler is largely responsible. My brother-in-law went to Southern in the 70’s, and it was not the case then, but he is well aware of the shift, and is alarmed by it. So, if the seminaries are teaching it, you’re going to find many graduates bringing it into their congregations. It’s been slowly happening for at least the last 10 years, I think, maybe longer.

This happened in our SB church. A new pastor came in, a graduate of Southern, was very quiet about Calvinism and RT, but slowly began teaching it. We had conversations about it, but this was not going to change, so we had to leave. I feel very strongly that we will never support false doctrine or be a part of it. Faithfulness to Jesus means everything!
So our Sunday school teacher today (another Southern student) taught about election today. He said that we all needed to understand that some of the teachings we hold fast to are incorrect and need to be reconsidered. Without specifically saying he was going to teach on election, he began his lesson. He introduced as a visiting teacher this doctrine with 30 minute of instruction time. As you can imagine, I have lots of questions.

Here is a question? I always hear people on this forum say Calvinism and Neo-Calvinism (I have no idea what that is) are false doctrines? What is it that you who disagree with these doctrines believe? What is the opposing viewpoint to this that also reconciles the "election" scriptures? I know that scriptures do say that God can harden who He wants and create vessels for destruction etc. I also know scriptures teach "whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life." I honestly up to now have just made my peace with the fact that both are somehow true in God's providence and my human mind will never be able to figure it out.

I will say that I have heard from students who have attended Boyce College and Southern Seminary that the arrogance of "the elect" doctrine was a total turn off. Honestly, whenever I think of God "choosing" me, I cry. Why in the world did I deserve such favor? I can't imagine being anything but humbly grateful. Any help you can offer in understanding is appreciated...even just a link to an article.
 

LisaJoe1986

Well-Known Member
it's sister actually. I'm Margery aka Athenasius, and the other half is George but he rarely posts in. I keep him up to date every day when he says "so what's new on Rapture Forums?" And yes, I think we go to that same "church". Every night.
Hi Margery, your situation sounds similar to mine. I am Lisa and my hubby is Joe. I always post and hubby and I spend pretty much all of our time discussing spiritual matters and me sharing what I am reading on the website and forum. I wish we could all get together and discuss our favorite subject in person...maybe soon on the other side? :waltz
 

LisaJoe1986

Well-Known Member
Len that is one that has comforted me immensely! Tozer tells it like it IS!

I've been thru being excommunicated back in 1998 for standing up against bad theology and yes the Replacement Theology was being taught, without correction from the pulpit, and a lot of New Apostolic Reformation stuff, Toronto Airport Vineyard nonsense etc. That church I later laughingly AND ACCURATELY called "The Little Shop of Heresies" as a joke referring to that 1980s era comedy horror film Little Shop of Horrors with an alien plant that ate people alive. That was traumatic.

We moved away from that city in 1999. Within a year we were going to the Baptist church that we went to till 2 years ago when G and I felt we HAD to leave. We tried and tried to be heard. We left on good terms with all. But we couldn't tolerate the official positions that had come into being in the last few years there.

Genesis Creation was being referred to as Poetic Myth or Story and 6 Day Young Earthers like me and George were "tolerated" but definitely not viewed as having a grasp of the Biblical truth of the matter. Our concerns were ignored.

Noah's Flood had become more poetry and according to the man who now pastors that church, referred to a big localized flood in the Middle East region.

And multiple authors that bothered me from the Emergent crowd were being quoted from the pulpit and the verse by verse exegesis was gone in favour of topical studies and listening to the Emergent crowd "wisdom".

It was hard doing it twice. Not going to lie. But God is faithful to those who love and serve Him. I connected here just a month or two before we left finally, and I have Christian friends and family we are in close contact with. We watch several pastors on YouTube from Jack Hibbs, Tom Hughes, JD Farag, and others on a regular basis. I would like to find a local church that actually teaches what I believe in, but haven't found one. Meanwhile we keep up as best we can and trust God.
Margery,
Your story is almost identical to ours. We left a church after speaking out loud in front of the congregation against the crazy teaching that had come into our former church. Our pastor was promoting Todd Bentley at the revival in Lakeland Florida and also speaking about latter rain and soaking worship. Basically we were being told that as followers of Jesus, we should be sharing testimonies of us healing the sick, raising the dead, and casting out demons. I guess we were all underachievers becasue we constantly felt our pastor was rebuking us for our lack of faith. When God opened my husband's and my eyes to the apostasy, it was terrifying that we had been deceived for a bit and it was also terribly heart-breaking. All of our friends and our children's friends were there. It was our family outside of our home. We were basically escorted out of the church by our pastor's wife who was also one of my best friends.

After 10 years of attempting home church and that ending up disastrous, we have landed after 2 years of searching in a local Southern Baptist Church and are now seeing some major biblical teaching being ignored. Our pastor completely ignored my e-mails, asking him for help in understanding eschatological issues. Ugh...not again, please Lord. Our journey through churches reminds me of Hebrews 11 where it mentions that the great "hall of faithers" were seeking a homeland they would not find on Earth. I guess we are destined to be church nomads. I am thankful for everyone on this forum. You all bless me greatly.

On a similar note, I am considering trying to put a conference together in the Kentucky area for those in the Southeast US. I want to go to one but they are all so far away. Pray for me as I look into this. I imagine if I am longing for prophetic teaching, there are probably many others like me in this area!
 

Accepted

Well-Known Member
So our Sunday school teacher today (another Southern student) taught about election today. He said that we all needed to understand that some of the teachings we hold fast to are incorrect and need to be reconsidered. Without specifically saying he was going to teach on election, he began his lesson. He introduced as a visiting teacher this doctrine with 30 minute of instruction time. As you can imagine, I have lots of questions.

Here is a question? I always hear people on this forum say Calvinism and Neo-Calvinism (I have no idea what that is) are false doctrines? What is it that you who disagree with these doctrines believe? What is the opposing viewpoint to this that also reconciles the "election" scriptures? I know that scriptures do say that God can harden who He wants and create vessels for destruction etc. I also know scriptures teach "whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life." I honestly up to now have just made my peace with the fact that both are somehow true in God's providence and my human mind will never be able to figure it out.

I will say that I have heard from students who have attended Boyce College and Southern Seminary that the arrogance of "the elect" doctrine was a total turn off. Honestly, whenever I think of God "choosing" me, I cry. Why in the world did I deserve such favor? I can't imagine being anything but humbly grateful. Any help you can offer in understanding is appreciated...even just a link to an article.
LisaJoe, you are asking exactly the right questions! I recommend a good book on the subject, entitled “What Love is This?” by Dave Hunt.

I’ll just make a few main points, but I really encourage you to look into this in-depth, because it is vital to understand what’s happening in your church. Like I said, it happened to us, too. First, the term “neo-Calvinism” refers to the current popular version of Calvinism, which not only includes replacement theology, but often also strong patriarchal themes, membership commitments that are considered sometimes to be legally binding, and authoritarian church discipline. Of course, the level of these things differs according to the pastor.

Basically, they disregard the place of God’s foreknowledge in election, predestination, being chosen, and in every aspect of salvation. Passages such as Romans 8:29 and 1 Peter 1:2, for example, are specific about the Lord’s foreknowledge being involved in salvation.

If you study the TULIP acronym, it’s pretty clear. Calvinism teaches that Christ did not die for everyone, but only for the ‘elect.’ His grace is “Irresistible,” literally, meaning it cannot be resisted, and we have no choice in the matter. The rest are predestined to an eternity in hell and have no choice about that either.

This is a very silly illustration, and could be much improved, but I tend to think of it this way: A father has five children. He builds a lovely swimming pool in the backyard. He then tosses three of his children into the sparkling, clear water on a hot day. He says to the other two children, I did not build this for you, only for them. There is no reason, I just don’t want you to have this.

Whereas the Good Father has the same number of children, and builds the same lovely pool. He says, I have built this beautiful pool for you! Whoever wishes to enjoy it, do! Three of his children jump in, and two refuse the gift. The Father encourages the two to enjoy what he’s done for them, but they will not. They choose to reject the gift and never get to enjoy it.

I think you’d get a lot out of “What Love is This?”
 

lenraff

Well-Known Member
LisaJoe, you are asking exactly the right questions! I recommend a good book on the subject, entitled “What Love is This?” by Dave Hunt.

I’ll just make a few main points, but I really encourage you to look into this in-depth, because it is vital to understand what’s happening in your church. Like I said, it happened to us, too. First, the term “neo-Calvinism” refers to the current popular version of Calvinism, which not only includes replacement theology, but often also strong patriarchal themes, membership commitments that are considered sometimes to be legally binding, and authoritarian church discipline. Of course, the level of these things differs according to the pastor.

Basically, they disregard the place of God’s foreknowledge in election, predestination, being chosen, and in every aspect of salvation. Passages such as Romans 8:29 and 1 Peter 1:2, for example, are specific about the Lord’s foreknowledge being involved in salvation.

If you study the TULIP acronym, it’s pretty clear. Calvinism teaches that Christ did not die for everyone, but only for the ‘elect.’ His grace is “Irresistible,” literally, meaning it cannot be resisted, and we have no choice in the matter. The rest are predestined to an eternity in hell and have no choice about that either.

This is a very silly illustration, and could be much improved, but I tend to think of it this way: A father has five children. He builds a lovely swimming pool in the backyard. He then tosses three of his children into the sparkling, clear water on a hot day. He says to the other two children, I did not build this for you, only for them. There is no reason, I just don’t want you to have this.

Whereas the Good Father has the same number of children, and builds the same lovely pool. He says, I have built this beautiful pool for you! Whoever wishes to enjoy it, do! Three of his children jump in, and two refuse the gift. The Father encourages the two to enjoy what he’s done for them, but they will not. They choose to reject the gift and never get to enjoy it.

I think you’d get a lot out of “What Love is This?”
Yes a must read!
 

athenasius

Well-Known Member
Margery,
Your story is almost identical to ours. We left a church after speaking out loud in front of the congregation against the crazy teaching that had come into our former church. Our pastor was promoting Todd Bentley at the revival in Lakeland Florida and also speaking about latter rain and soaking worship. Basically we were being told that as followers of Jesus, we should be sharing testimonies of us healing the sick, raising the dead, and casting out demons. I guess we were all underachievers becasue we constantly felt our pastor was rebuking us for our lack of faith. When God opened my husband's and my eyes to the apostasy, it was terrifying that we had been deceived for a bit and it was also terribly heart-breaking. All of our friends and our children's friends were there. It was our family outside of our home. We were basically escorted out of the church by our pastor's wife who was also one of my best friends.

After 10 years of attempting home church and that ending up disastrous, we have landed after 2 years of searching in a local Southern Baptist Church and are now seeing some major biblical teaching being ignored. Our pastor completely ignored my e-mails, asking him for help in understanding eschatological issues. Ugh...not again, please Lord. Our journey through churches reminds me of Hebrews 11 where it mentions that the great "hall of faithers" were seeking a homeland they would not find on Earth. I guess we are destined to be church nomads. I am thankful for everyone on this forum. You all bless me greatly.

On a similar note, I am considering trying to put a conference together in the Kentucky area for those in the Southeast US. I want to go to one but they are all so far away. Pray for me as I look into this. I imagine if I am longing for prophetic teaching, there are probably many others like me in this area!
:hug I'm SO glad you are here. And yes, I will pray for this conference.

I know I didn't want to see the signs rising in front of me again.

I have an auto immune disease or actually a cluster, but I just lump it all together as my body just attacks itself at times. I would be getting an attack just from the stress of attending church and coping with the sound, the people, and then on top of it all, the strange new emergent/purpose driven teachings and to cap it all off, the chopping off of Genesis.

I kept praying, so did George and finally I ended up nearly in hospital again with another severe diverticulitis attack, which began like I was punched in the stomach at church. That lasted 2 months, and involved a lot of time at the dr's office avoiding a hospital stay. I couldn't do that again and put my family thru the worry and stress of another serious health crisis.

What had happened was I made some comment about a Young Earth, 6 day literal creation, and the woman I spoke with (who I thought was solid conservative like me) rebuked me and said, OH we don't follow that teaching anymore, the church has embraced a more scientific model. She was talking the Hugh Ross millions of years nonsense.

I'd only just recovered from my last attack which happened after the Junior pastor (who is nowadays the senior pastor) FROM THE PULPIT explained Noah's Flood as localized, and POETIC.

At that point I was only managing to come in about once a month because I was literally having health problems from diverticulitis to asthma, fatigue to vertigo attacks and ataxia plus thyroid issues which I was managing by rest, gluten free and low carb diet and reducing stress. I'd clear up only to be landed in bed for days after going to church.

Finally we realized, that the stress of continuing there, trying to counter the bad teaching (and being unheard each time) was really damaging my health and we left permanently.

but about that time, I signed up here and began chatting, and really enjoying the fellowship. We also had begun watching some very good teachers on YouTube like Ken Johnson (I'd already known him thru his books) and JD Farag and several others I often mention.

God supplied. I looked around, and every so often do the search again to see if there are any safe churches nearby but no. I was hopeful of a Calvary Chapel plant, but it turned out to be one of the ones going with the Brian Broderson side of the split, and he is aligned with Bethel of Redding California and all that craziness. LOL NOT GOIN" THRU THAT AGAIN!!!!!

But HUGS sweetie, and SO glad you're here!!!! :pray
 
Last edited:

Lynn

Well-Known Member
I recommend a good book on the subject, entitled “What Love is This?” by Dave Hunt
Yes! This is the one book that will help you sort out truth from error regarding Calvinism. In this book, the late Dave Hunt calls out the well known radio preachers who have built their ministries around false teaching. Most of them have written books, commentaries, are presidents of seminaries, presidents of mission groups, or leaders in Baptist denominational groups, and some are heard daily on Christian radio. That's too big a ship to turn around. These guys won't recant any of their teaching. In fact, after Dave Hunt wrote this book, What Love is This? it was mocked and denigrated at a pastor's conference in front of several hundred pastors who had flown in for the annual event. A relative of ours was there & described the public attack on the book to us. The man who made the angry disparaging remarks was high up in the hierarchy of a very large popular church.
In our rural area, there is a (Calvinist) Baptist Church (5 minutes from our home), and an Evangelical Free Church (Calvinist), 20 minutes from our home. We drive 50 minutes one way to find biblically sound preaching. If anything drastically changes at our current church, our next church will be the same as Len's & Margery's.
 

Kem

Citizen
Genesis Creation was being referred to as Poetic Myth or Story and 6 Day Young Earthers like me and George were "tolerated" but definitely not viewed as having a grasp of the Biblical truth of the matter. Our concerns were ignored.

Noah's Flood had become more poetry and according to the man who now pastors that church, referred to a big localized flood in the Middle East region.

And multiple authors that bothered me from the Emergent crowd were being quoted from the pulpit and the verse by verse exegesis was gone in favour of topical studies and listening to the Emergent crowd "wisdom".
Sounds EXACTLY like the Wesleyan church we had to leave about 15 years ago. It was gut wrenching for dh especially but it had to be done. We had never joined that church because we just didn't quite feel right about it and of course we learned there was a good reason why. We did join a small Regular Baptist church in the same town and loved it there and now love the somewhat larger Southern Baptist church of which we are now members.
 

lenraff

Well-Known Member
Margery,
Your story is almost identical to ours. We left a church after speaking out loud in front of the congregation against the crazy teaching that had come into our former church. Our pastor was promoting Todd Bentley at the revival in Lakeland Florida and also speaking about latter rain and soaking worship. Basically we were being told that as followers of Jesus, we should be sharing testimonies of us healing the sick, raising the dead, and casting out demons. I guess we were all underachievers becasue we constantly felt our pastor was rebuking us for our lack of faith. When God opened my husband's and my eyes to the apostasy, it was terrifying that we had been deceived for a bit and it was also terribly heart-breaking. All of our friends and our children's friends were there. It was our family outside of our home. We were basically escorted out of the church by our pastor's wife who was also one of my best friends.

After 10 years of attempting home church and that ending up disastrous, we have landed after 2 years of searching in a local Southern Baptist Church and are now seeing some major biblical teaching being ignored. Our pastor completely ignored my e-mails, asking him for help in understanding eschatological issues. Ugh...not again, please Lord. Our journey through churches reminds me of Hebrews 11 where it mentions that the great "hall of faithers" were seeking a homeland they would not find on Earth. I guess we are destined to be church nomads. I am thankful for everyone on this forum. You all bless me greatly.

On a similar note, I am considering trying to put a conference together in the Kentucky area for those in the Southeast US. I want to go to one but they are all so far away. Pray for me as I look into this. I imagine if I am longing for prophetic teaching, there are probably many others like me in this area!
I don’t know if you’ve put on a conference before, but it’s sure time. God’s people are starving for the prophetic word. God has opened the door for me to teach prophecy on Cruise ships, as strange as that sounds. We’ll be doing our second trip in November. The first was quite the surprise we had seven consecutive sessions and nearly two hundred souls. And our materials were used by one of the attendees at another church resulting in sixty five souls coming forward. I hope this encourages you to follow His leading and move forward with your conference. The body needs you. God Bless.
 
Top