Justine Votaw
New Member
I am a woman I teach a Sunday School Class. It is mostly women over 65. Two men attend one regularly and one on occasion. It is about 15 in number.
Follow along with the video below to see how to install our site as a web app on your home screen.
Note: This feature may not be available in some browsers.
Thank you. I do not want to offend our Lord. I enjoy teaching these people who are my friends and neighbors.Was it wrong for the prophetess Deborah to judge Israel?
I believe the answer to my question answers yours.
I am a woman I teach a Sunday School Class. It is mostly women over 65. Two men attend one regularly and one on occasion. It is about 15 in number.
There is a difference between usurping authority and simply teaching the Word of God. As long as you are operating in a proper order, accountable to a pastor, I see no problem. You are not lifting yourself up over anyone, you are simply serving Christ as He provides. If men desire to learn the Word in that environment, that is their choice. I think you are doing what God has called you to do.
There is a difference between usurping authority and simply teaching the Word of God. As long as you are operating in a proper order, accountable to a pastor, I see no problem. You are not lifting yourself up over anyone, you are simply serving Christ as He provides. If men desire to learn the Word in that environment, that is their choice. I think you are doing what God has called you to do.
Praying for you to lead this class with excellent discernment, standing strong as you dig in to the meat of His Word.I am a woman I teach a Sunday School Class. It is mostly women over 65. Two men attend one regularly and one on occasion. It is about 15 in number.
Eve sinned by being deceived, but Adam sinned by knowing what he was doing....and he threw Eve under the bus....so which one is worse? Male and female are equal in falling short of the glory of God....God did make order for a reason, yet females are the ones who birth and raise the children. So, in love, just pointing out that your post is a little off-putting.* Eve gave that attractive serpent her ear, she listened, and she was beguiled (deceived); whereas Adam was not deceived. Women must obviously be more susceptible to being beguiled, to being deceived, otherwise this example would not be given.
God forbid that any of us should ever be dismissive of what God has said in His Word. However, it does behoove us to rightly divide it. And that requires far more than cherry picking some verses. Brother, I respectfully think you are wrong, using only some verses and ignoring or altering the context of others, thus giving them a meaning the original does not possess.. You quote 1 Corinthians 11: 2-4. But that entire passage—from 2 Corinthians 10 through 11—is actually a defense of Paul's own apostleship and the verse you put in bold face type is speaking of salvation ... nothing else. The reference Paul makes to "the simplicity that is in Christ" simply describes the nature of God's plan of salvation. It IS absolutely simple. Yet man, too often complicates it. But then, are we any different than the Pharisees who zealously tried to apply every minute aspect of the law in order to achieve the holiness they sought, using the verses that supported their viewpoint and applying them strictly regardless of anything else God may have said that could have altered that view. Frankly, I like Jack Kelley's view above. But allow me to give my own answer as well.With respect, @mattfivefour, it is not your opinion or mine that Justine is seeking, but what God has to say: and it is not for us to be dismissive of what God has said in His Word on this matter.
* There was good reason given for women not to teach: shown to us with the example given of Eve:-
'But I suffer not a woman to teach,
nor to usurp authority over the man,
but to be in silence.
For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
And Adam was not deceived,
but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.'
(1 Timothy 2:12-14)
'For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy:
for I have espoused you to one husband,
that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty,
so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached,
or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received,
or another gospel, which ye have not accepted,
ye might well bear with him.'
(2 Corinthians 11:2)
* Eve gave that attractive serpent her ear, she listened, and she was beguiled (deceived); whereas Adam was not deceived. Women must obviously be more susceptible to being beguiled, to being deceived, otherwise this example would not be given.
In Christ Jesus
Chris
God forbid that any of us should ever be dismissive of what God has said in His Word. However, it does behoove us to rightly divide it. And that requires far more than cherry picking some verses. Brother, I respectfully think you are wrong, using only some verses and ignoring or altering the context of others, thus giving them a meaning the original does not possess.. You quote 1 Corinthians 11: 2-4. But that entire passage—from 2 Corinthians 10 through 11—is actually a defense of Paul's own apostleship and the verse you put in bold face type is speaking of salvation ... nothing else. The reference Paul makes to "the simplicity that is in Christ" simply describes the nature of God's plan of salvation. It IS absolutely simple. Yet man, too often complicates it. But then, are we any different than the Pharisees who zealously tried to apply every minute aspect of the law in order to achieve the holiness they sought, using the verses that supported their viewpoint and applying them strictly regardless of anything else God may have said that could have altered that view. Frankly, I like Jack Kelley's view above. But allow me to give my own answer as well.
Since "rightly dividing" in the Greek literally means "cutting straight", let's try to cut straight the cloth of God's Word in its original form. The KJV translation of "usurp authority" is a poor translation. The verb αὐθεντέω (authentéo) means literally "to self arm" (ie: to take up arms oneself) and was used to describe the actions of someone who chose to exercise authority unilaterally. As Strong's correctly puts it "acting as an autocrat – literally, self-appointed (acting without submission)." The vast amount of papyri and other ancient documents and literature from that era that exists makes it clear that the people of that time understood authentéo to refer to someone who attempted to master or dominate others. Therefore, Vincent says a better translation would be "exercise dominion over." Wuest puts it in its full context and suggests the following: "In the sphere of doctrinal disputes or questions of interpretation (of Scripture), where authoritative pronouncements are to be made, the woman is to keep silence."
What I have said is supported by the Greek word Paul used for "silent." Had he meant for a woman not to speak, he would have used the verb σιωπάω (siopáo) or σιγάω (sigáo) which mean "to keep silence", "to not speak." . Instead the Holy Spirit inspired the use of the word ἡσυχία (hesuchía) which means "to be peaceful". Paul uses this very same word earlier in the same chapter when he writes, "Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable (ἡσύχιον) life in all godliness and reverence." (1 Timothy 2:1-2) As you can see, there this same word is translated "peaceable". Therefore, what Paul is saying in 1 Timothy 2 is that women should behave without contention, not that they should be in total silence. In other words, in the debate over doctrine and in decisions concerning the teaching of the church, a woman should not assert herself or try to impose her will over men. This is because that, in the same way as God created marriage to follow a certain order, He created the Church with a similar order. As in marriage men are to lead the family, so too in the Church men are to lead the assembly. This has nothing to do with the value of a woman or a man, for both are of equal value in the Lord's eyes. But it has everything to do with the order that God has ordained for marriage and the Church.
Does a godly wife keep silence at home while only her husband speaks? Is she thus at the mercy of his every whim, that only he has the wisdom and the right to make decisions? No, in a godly home the wife is a partner and freely gives her input. what she does not do, however, is attempt to dominate or master her husband. A godly husband listens, engages in the free exchange of information and views, and then prayerfully makes the best decision he can, taking into account all of his wife's input as well as his own.
Back to the Church, nowhere in God's Word do I see a ban on a woman doing something that a pastor oversees and that he has asked her to do. Such a woman is respectful, not dominating. Thus nowhere do I see that our sister is resisting and disobeying the proper order of a church, creating contention in order to impose her own will. She is merely serving God in the way that her pastor—the person with authority over her in the church—has determined.
Now, that is my view and the view of a lot of other pastors. But I have a few friends who are also pastors and they disagree with those of us with this view. Nevertheless, I consider them sound men of God and friends. The important thing to remember here is that it is quite possible to disagree on such issues while treating each other with the love and grace with which God treats us. If we disagree, we disagree. We reasonably discuss the issue, but we do not suggest that someone who disagrees with us is somehow being disobedient to God's Word. Each of us—pro or con—is zealously attempting to follow God as best we can. And, for myself and most others I know, unless the issue is one of salvation, we will not allow it to break the bond of unity between us.
I pray this helps.
Im not sure how you quoted words I did not use, but you quoted words from Wings post number 6.Eve sinned by being deceived, but Adam sinned by knowing what he was doing....and he threw Eve under the bus....so which one is worse? Male and female are equal in falling short of the glory of God....God did make order for a reason, yet females are the ones who birth and raise the children. So, in love, just pointing out that your post is a little off-putting.
I don't know how that happened. I didn't realize. Sorry, Andy C! :-(Im not sure how you quoted words I did not use, but you quoted words from Wings post number 6.
Can you explain how the above error happened?
My sister, I apologize if I misunderstood your words. Please forgive me.Hello there,
I am sorry that you interpreted my words as you did. The reference from 1 Corinthians 2 was in regard to what was said about Eve, and for no other purpose, which a comparison with the other references quoted should have made clear. There was also no intent on my part to bring an element of judgement into this discussion. I am looking at this subject objectively. I too am female, and therefore it is important to me that I understand God's will in this regard, as it is for the thread originator.
I value the principle of right division, and practice it.
Within the love of Christ our Saviour,
Chris
I am a woman I teach a Sunday School Class. It is mostly women over 65. Two men attend one regularly and one on occasion. It is about 15 in number.