Is gematria legitimate?

mattfivefour

Well-Known Member
This is getting extremely silly.

Did John the Revelator write: "six hundred, three score and six" ?

or

Did John the Revelator write three letters: "χξϚ" ?

Simple question.

Simple answer.

Yes or no?

Well since he was writing in Greek, not English, he wrote χξϚ.

Had he been writing in English, he would have written 666.

In Greek χ, when a number, means 600
In Greek ξ, when a number, means 60
In Greek Ϛ, when a number, means 6

So the answer to your question is irrelevant. It is the IDEA the characters stand for that count, surely. And in either language (or any other language for that matter) they are the same: six hundred and sixty-six: 666.
 

mattfivefour

Well-Known Member
Sorry Matt, but your response is irrelevant in lieu of what was posted in response #19. It has been established that gematria exists within Scripture.

Respectfully, we will have to disagree on this Sean. While I like some of Bullinger's exegeses and teachings (in fact I posted a very good one a few months ago here), there are a number of things I disagree with him on— ultra-dispensationalism, soul sleep and partial annihilism are three-- gematria is another.

Yes, there is significance to numbers in the Bible ... but not at the arcane, gnostic or kabbalistic levels that Bullinger taught. Truth be told, it wasn't really Bullinger at all who developed the advanced gematria he taught, but Edward Irving, a man who died long before Bullinger was born ... and whose teachings formed the basis for the bizarre and error-filled Catholic Apostolic Church movement. The sort of mysticism inherent in gematria as it is applied today belongs in the world of the occult, not the world of light.

Our role as His servants—and as His watchmen—is not to attempt to penetrate the mysteries of God. That is forbidden. And that is what the occult attempts to do. God will reveal his mysteries ... in His time, at His place, and in His way. Not ONE of the prophets of old was ever seeking a sign or a message of God. That is the significance of 2 Peter 1:21 ("For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.") Each prophet received his messages unbidden. They were initiated by God, not by man's seeking.

Likewise, not ONCE in the Bible is man instructed to seek the mysteries of God. In fact Paul often speaks expressly against such occultic and gnostic efforts in his epistles. The Bible itself says, "The secret things belong to the LORD our God...." (Deuteronomy 29:29a) And what is OUR part? "But the things revealed belong to us and to our sons forever, that we may observe all the words of this law." (Deuteron9my 29:29b) The wise man and woman will heed these words out of God's own mouth.

We get ourselves into lots of trouble when we attempt to uncover God's divine mysteries by attempting to penetrate them. In fact the majority of the heresies extant came about because man in his desire to penetrate ever deeper into the knowledge of God thought he could discern hidden "truths" in His Word.

We would do well to remember, humbly, that we are His creation, that there resides in us no good thing outside of the Spirit of Christ within us, and that we should not attempt to rise above that which He has given us clearly to know ... and plainly to do.
 

mattfivefour

Well-Known Member
Pro 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a matter; to search out a matter is the glory of kings.

With respect, neen, we need to properly divide—properly interpret—this verse. It does NOT say it is the glory of kings to search out that which God has hidden. As I pointed out in the previous post, attempts such as that to penetrate the mysteries of God are forbidden and, indeed, occultic. God has revealed EVERYTHING that we NEED to know.

So, then, how to interpret this verse? First it is a classic example of the defining characteristic of Hebrew poetry— parallelism. However it is not antithetical parallelism as might at first be thought because then it would mean that we SHOULD attempt to uncover what God has hidden ... which is theological error. Rather, this distich is constructive (or, epithetical) parallelism ... in which the two clauses refer to disparate things, but are linked through a commonality of the imagery used.

The great expositors of the past have seen this and interpreted it properly:

John Wesley says that it is a testimony of God's infinite wisdom, and of his absolute power and sovereignty to keep his counsels, and the reasons of his actions in his own breast. But it is a testimopny of king's wisdom to communicate their counsels to others, that so they may search and find out the right way.

Jamieson, Fausset and Brown say that "God's unsearchableness impresses us with awe (compare Isa 45:15; Ro 11:33). But kings, being finite, should confer with wise counsellors."

The old Geneva Study Bible in its notes comments: "God does not reveal the cause of his judgments to man; (but) because the king rules by the revealed word of God, the cause of his doings must appear, and therefore he must use diligence in trying causes."

Matthew Henry in his concise Commentary says: "God needs not search into any thing; nothing can be hid from him. But it is the honour of rulers to search out matters, to bring to light hidden works of darkness. For a prince to suppress vice, and reform his people, is the best way to support his government."

Hope this helps put the proper interpretation on this verse so that it is not misused to appear to countenance man's attempts to seek out God's mysteries.
 

Sean Osborne

Active Member
Matt,

I have no issues with disagreement.

My focus is not about E.W. Bullinger or the Agape or others sources I cited.

My focus is on Revelation 13:18 being an example of gematria being extant in Scripture... specifically as this is the Word of God as Revealed to Jesus and given and written down by the Apostle John.

I take the Word of God literally.

You said:

"Our role as His servants—and as His watchmen—is not to attempt to penetrate the mysteries of God."

God said:

"Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding count/calculate the number of the beast..."

wisdom : Strong's G4678

1) wisdom, broad and full of intelligence; used of the knowledge of very diverse matters

a) the wisdom which belongs to men

understanding : Strong's G3563

1) the mind, comprising alike the faculties of perceiving and understanding and those of feeling, judging, determining

a) the intellectual faculty, the understanding

count/calculate : Strong's G5585

1) to count with pebbles, to compute, calculate, reckon

What is "gematria" if not the counting or calculation by men with wisdom and understanding of the number of the beast?

Yes, with all due respect brother, I will take the literal Word of God over the explanatory, interpretive or exegetical word of Matt.
 

mattfivefour

Well-Known Member
There is no need for slighting personal comments, brother. I have never suggested you take the "word of Matt" over the Word of God. Never. That is an unwarranted statement. But since you raise it, allow me to suggest that neither should we take the "word of Sean" over the Word of God. It is evident that you sincerely believe that your interpretations are correct: after all you have invested many years of study into them. But so have many others. And I can tell you plainly that there are varied interpretations of the meaning of 666 ... all of them from sincere and seeking men of God, some of them among the leaders of Christian thought over the centuries. I have studied most of them and can honestly say that, while a couple strike me as being close to the truth, prayerfully none of them is manifestly the one true explanation at this time. One day we will know ... for when the Beast reveals himself, all with understanding and wisdom at that time will comprehend the meaning of the 666.

Your interpretation may indeed be correct, Sean. Or not. But remember we are not speaking of the givens of plainly manifest doctrines here. We are speaking of mysteries. I would suggest when we offer our interpretations of the meanings of the mysteries in the Book of the Revelation that we remember our interpretations are in fact our opinions ... and possibly of no more value than those of other sincere students of the Book. As James, says, the Spirit of Christ within us is manifested more in our attitude toward others regarding our knowledge, than in the degree of our knowledge itself.

<EDIT>

Since posting this I see that Chris has posted on the same point. Please do not interpret my statements above as intended as a personal slight, but rather an effort to contend with a brother over the fact that NONE of us is a possessor of all truth and when dealing with difficult passages in scripture we need to accept that there can be honest differences between sincere and honest students of God's Word. Above all, we need to remember that it is not on the wisdom we possess but the spirit in which we deal with one another that Christ will judge us.
 

Sean Osborne

Active Member
There is no need for slighting personal comments, brother. I have never suggested you take the "word of Matt" over the Word of God. Never. That is an unwarranted statement. But since you raise it, allow me to suggest that neither should we take the "word of Sean" over the Word of God.

Matt,

That was not a "slighting personal comment," it was a statement of fact exactly as you demonstrated by reversing it. I do not see such things as "slights." That comment was explicitly the fact of the matter. It was the brutal truth, a truth that you obviously agree with. The Word of God is supreme. You say, I say, he, she, it says... none of that matters not one iota. Only what God says matters and only what the Spirit convicts us of is what matters. Obviously I have a conviction regarding Revelation 13:18. Too bad the majority of people here connot or will not accept that fact.

And the point of fact, from my perspective, is that in this discussion of Revealtion 13:18 God most certainly did say to count or calculate the number of the name of the coming beast. As far as I am concerned and according to my conviction this is undeniable. You or anyone else can believe that God did not mean what he said, that this verse is not gematria as defined. I do see it as an example of gematria in Scripture.

I began by stating this from the get-go in this thread, post #6.

I received in return an immediate personalized disagreement from Eco (see post #7).

I did not have a problem with his personalized disagreement with my conviction of belief. Did i whine to Chris about Eco's comment? No, I accepted it without question, I welcomed it with open arms as a pathway to deeper discussion of the subject.

So... I make a factual comment about taking the Word of God over any man or woman and several in this community get all riled up. Righteous indignation that I would speak a brutal truth. That tells me something about how thin-skinned some may be and how disliked anything I say here is.


It is evident that you sincerely believe that your interpretations are correct: after all you have invested many years of study into them.

I'm glad that much is obvious. Coming from you that tells me something also... that you are a mature Christian whom I am glad to have as a brother in Christ.

...the meaning of the 666.

This is the last time I will bring this up. Nowhere in this discussion have I said ANYTHING about "the meaning of 666." Not one word.

I don't care nor could i care less what 666 means, it is something no one will know until after the son of perdition is revealed.

What I am talking about is that its appearance in Scripture revealed by God Himself along with with His statement that it should be counted (or calculated) means exactly what it says. This has nothing to do with Judaic cabbalistic or gnostic or anything of the sort people have been not so subtley hinting that I am engaging in. Nothing could be further from the truth. Thank God I have a thick skin through decades of serving in and with the U.S. military, it has been a blessing, and has come in handy of late.
 
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