Is Belief Alone For Salvation Only For The So Called “Grace Age”?

[Lovin Jesus]

I believe that we are saved by grace alone, thru faith alone in Christ alone plus nothing else. I believe this applies not just in the age of grace, but in the OT, and will in the Tribulation. No person has or ever will live up to the standards required for salvation because our righteousness is a filthy rags. (Isiah 64:6). Anything we do or don't do will never or can ever save us because we would have to be perfect, cradle to grave. It is only the imputed righteousness of Christ alone that saves us because His is perfect because his death and resurrection for our sins is the only thing that can ever save us. (Rom 4:24-25; 2 Cor 5:21). Furthermore, if those in OT and Tribulation rely in any way on their works or goodness they would never be saved no matter how good they are. (Acts15:8-11) The gospel condition for salvation remains the same for all ages (1 Cor 15:1-4). There are forms of the gospel that are presented in the Bible like in Rev 14, but that does not change the only gospel by which we are saved; Christ's death for our sins, his burial, and his being raised from the dead.
Simply because the word "saved" is used in the Bible like in Matt 24, does not necessarily mean it is referring to justification unto eternal life. It can mean salvation in terms of safety and preservation from peril.

Yes saved can mean preservation from peril. The word saved for the church is different than the other saints. The church is saved from Gods wrath. And the church is sealed with the Holy Spirit as a guarantee of our hope for eternal life with Jesus.

Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.
Romans 5:9

He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
John 4:36

set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
2 Corinthians 1:22

 

[Goodboy]

IMO, when Jesus says “turn away from faith” it can only mean one thing.

Unsaved pastors never had faith to turn from.

10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other,

The verse you quoted does not say "turn away from their faith" it says "turn away from the faith". The faith is God's Word and anyone can hear it and turn away from it without ever accepting it.

Here is how the King James Version translates that verse, for those who don't have the King James Version of the bible.
Matthew 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

Not debating, just responding to your post with my understanding.

 

[Andy C]

10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other,

The verse you quoted does not say "turn away from their faith" it says "turn away from the faith". The faith is God's Word and anyone can hear it and turn away from it without ever accepting it.

Here is how the King James Version translates that verse, for those who don't have the King James Version of the bible.
Matthew 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

Not debating, just responding to you post with my understanding.

1 John 2:
Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour.

19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

 

[Goodboy]

1 John 2:
Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour.

19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

Not sure what your point is? We were discussing that I said you can't lose your salvation, even during the tribulation. The verse you posted says that those who left never belonged to the group in the first place. What is it you are trying to convey?

Again not debating, just trying to understand.

 

[Andy C]

Not sure what your point is? We were discussing that I said you can't lose your salvation, even during the tribulation. The verse you posted says that those who left never belonged to the group in the first place. What is it you are trying to convey?

Again not debating, just trying to understand.

Why do you always feel the need to say “not debating”.....debating is good, causes us to search scripture.

OSAS is clearly only for the church, as it is not mentioned in the Old Testament, nor in reference to Trib Saints.

 

[ShilohRose]

IMO, when Jesus says “turn away from faith” it can only mean one thing.

Unsaved pastors never had faith to turn from.

I had thought "turn away from faith" could mean that the Gospel had been presented to these people, but they had rejected it.

 

[Andy C]

I had thought "turn away from faith" could mean that the Gospel had been presented to these people, but they had rejected it.

Could be, but IMO, He was talking about those trib saints who had faith, but changed their minds. When survival is on the line during the tribulation and the MOB is the only way some will feel they can endure, will renounce their faith by taking the MOB. They are not OSAS, and unlike the church, can walk away, or turn away.

 

[JSTyler]

Many have left like the prodigal son but Jesus sheep who are saved return to our Shepherd.

The prodigal son was, is and always be the Father's son. It's the Father that matters here. As for the son, he was the son thus he was saved, left his Father's side for a time, remained saved, and returned when the carnality he was pursuing burned out...his Father was there waiting with open arms ready to receive the son back to His side the entire time.

Emphasis, Father.

 

[Goodboy]

Why do you always feel the need to say “not debating”.....debating is good, causes us to search scripture.

Why do you always feel the need to say “not debating”.....debating is good, causes us to search scripture.

OSAS is clearly only for the church, as it is not mentioned in the Old Testament, nor in reference to Trib Saints.

What I mean when I say "not debating" is I am not trying to argue with you. Maybe I should say "not to argue".

I say this because writing has no tone and I want to make it clear that I and responding in love, not anger or annoyance. Does it bother you when I say that?

 

[Andy C]

What I mean when I say "not debating" is I am not trying to argue with you. Maybe I should say "not to argue".

I say this because writing has no tone and I want to make it clear that I and responding in love, not anger or annoyance. Does it bother you when I say that?

No. I'm just a curious George.

 

[Goodboy]

No. I'm just a curious George.

Got it!

I agree with you that disagreements are good, if we discuss them in a loving manner. If we were all just to agree with everything, would we really learn anything?

I thought more about why I say I am not debating. My understanding of debating is that each person is trying to win the debate even if they know they are wrong. The object is just to win. I am just trying to make it clear that I am not just trying to win, but stating what it is I believe.

One of the definitions of the word "debate" is " to argue about". That is what I think of and arguing to me is something unpleasant. I don't feel there is love in an argument.

Well you said you were curious, so I thought I would give you my full perspective on it.

 

[mattfivefour]

Could be, but IMO, He was talking about those trib saints who had faith, but changed their minds. When survival is on the line during the tribulation and the MOB is the only way some will feel they can endure, will renounce their faith by taking the MOB. They are not OSAS, and unlike the church, can walk away, or turn away.

Indeed: "He who endures to the end shall be saved." (Matthew 10:22; Matthew 24:13; mark 13:13)

Note that Matthew 10:22 is not referring to the Tribulation ... or is it?

 

[Work4Peanuts]

James 2:19 "You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe- and tremble!"

There is more than one type of belief. There is belief that there is a God, and there is a belief in Jesus. It is only the second that imparts salvation, because it is basically faith. The whole book of James covers this, but the kind of belief that brings about salvation is the kind that will produce works, whether for OT saints, or Age of Grace saints. The OT saints were saved by grace through faith. They showed that faith by following the sacrificial laws. Age of Grace saints are saved by grace through faith. We show it by our good works (note that I didn't say our good works saved us, they are merely evidence of our faith.) I'm going to say that Tribulation saints will also be saved by grace through faith. They will have to show it by enduring persecution to the end, and not taking the MOB (which would be the easy way out.) I think that many will show the first type of belief and initially believe that there is an angry God, but will lack the faith (the oil in the virgin's lamps- jumping to that parable) to continue to the end.

 

[Moonlight]

Indeed: "He who endures to the end shall be saved." (Matthew 10:22; Matthew 24:13; mark 13:13)

Note that Matthew 10:22 is not referring to the Tribulation ... or is it?

Here's my small tidbit.
Does it matter that in that verse it doesn't say "He who does not endure to the end will not be saved."?

And with that, I'm out of this thread.

 

[RestInHim]

Indeed: "He who endures to the end shall be saved." (Matthew 10:22; Matthew 24:13; mark 13:13)

Note that Matthew 10:22 is not referring to the Tribulation ... or is it?

I would think it is not referring to the Tribulation saints but to the Apostles and within the context it's talking about physical endurance, not salvation. Previous context is talking about being delivered up to death.

 

[Jan51]

Keep in mind where Andy Woods is coming from. He believes that the OT saints had OSAS as does the church. He believes they were born again, regenerated (even though the OT does not speak of that), yet those concepts are only taught for the church age. So if he thinks OSAS was for the OT, of course he would see it for the tribulation also. I would also disagree with his reasoning that since the 144,000 are sealed, therefore all tribulation saints are sealed. That is reading into Scripture.

 

[Andy C]

Indeed: "He who endures to the end shall be saved." (Matthew 10:22; Matthew 24:13; mark 13:13)

Note that Matthew 10:22 is not referring to the Tribulation ... or is it?

The answer is found in the next verse. When the son of man comes, cant be referring to now, because He was already there. He is referring to His second coming, which is at the end of the tribulation - thus, again He tells those in the trib to “stand firm to the end”.

Matthew 10:
22 You will be hated by everyone because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.

23 When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. Truly I tell you, you will not finish going through the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

 

[Andy C]

Question: After reading “saved through perseverance” I was reminded of a preacher that said we could lose our salvation. He cited Matthew 10:22. The preacher took the stand that if we don’t endure we would lose our salvation, but didn’t note specifically what a lack of endurance was. I would like your feedback on the context of that verse in Matthew 10.


Answer:
Matthew 10 contains a set of instructions the Lord gave to His disciples before sending them out on their first missionary journey. But as sometimes happens, He included some tips that obviously are meant for the time after His crucifixion and others that are for the end of the age, after the rapture.

We know this because the Book of Acts confirms the circumstances of Matt. 10:17-20 as being post resurrection, and the phrase “he who stands firm until the end will be saved” from Matt. 10:21-23 appears again in Matt. 24:9-14 where the context is clearly the end of the age after the Church is gone.

More importantly the admonition to stand firm until the end in order to be saved violates several clear promises made to the Church. Both Jesus and Paul said for the church, salvation is guaranteed from the moment of belief. John 10:27-30, Ephes. 1:13-14, 2 Cor. 1:21-22 and others attest to this. Promises like these gave rise to the hymn “Blessed Assurance.” What kind of assurance would we have if we couldn’t know for sure if we are saved until after we die? From previous studies we know this assurance will not be given to post rapture believers.
https://gracethrufaith.com/ask-a-bible-teacher/saved-through-perseverance-follow-up/

 

[JSTyler]

Keep in mind where Andy Woods is coming from. He believes that the OT saints had OSAS as does the church. He believes they were born again, regenerated (even though the OT does not speak of that), yet those concepts are only taught for the church age. So if he thinks OSAS was for the OT, of course he would see it for the tribulation also. I would also disagree with his reasoning that since the 144,000 are sealed, therefore all tribulation saints are sealed. That is reading into Scripture.

I'm listening through his soteriology series right now and that's pretty close to what he teaches. I'm good with it. Dr. Woods points to Hebrews 11 quite a lot. He makes the case (assuming I've not heard it wrong or stating it wrong) that saved by faith is exactly that, saved by faith, no matter the dispensation.

He runs right down the middle between the arminian and calvinist positions, those being, you can lose it or you never had it. Either way those two views prop themselves upon human work orientation.

What follows is a general statement, not related precisely to my quotation of @Jan51

What I'd like to understand, is how someone in the Trib (any time period for that matter) can have salvation but only keep it if they actually earn it by their own power of perseverance added to the saving faith provided by God through Jesus Christ. I'd love to see a breakdown of where that's taught and how something so different from how Hebrews 11 lays out the "history" of saved by faith from our entire biblical timeline reads.

Anything Adam to the last saved saint on the very last day of the Millennial Kingdom does or could do to secure or add to God's provision of faith leading to salvation has the aroma of works. Or at least that's always been my understanding. I'm thinking Psalm 14:1-3, Psalm 53:1-3 and Romans 3:10-12 That's the trap we have no power within ourselves to escape or overcome. So, if we're saved by faith plus what we do to preserve it, how does that jive?

 

[Goodboy]

While I usually quote bible verses to support what I am saying, this time I will just use logic.

If you buy your 13 year old son a car and put it in his name, it is his car and he can say it's his or sell it if he wants. While he might not be able to drive it yet, it is his car and he will be able to drive it in the future. If you take his car back, you will be stealing it and may get arrested.
If you buy your 13 year old son a car and don't put it in his name, then it is not really his car. You can legally take the car back, before he ever gets to drive it.

If we can lose our salvation without ever getting the benefits of it meaning Heaven, did we ever really have it? If God gave it to us (as a free gift), then it must be ours and if God takes it back he would be stealing. Now of course if we were not truly saved or in the process of getting saved, God could withhold it.

Another example is buying a car with a loan. If you take out a loan for a car is it really yours? If you say yes, that's incorrect. The car you have really belongs to the bank and they have the right to take it back if you don't make a payment. Once you fully make all the payments is the only time the car is really yours. So then the question becomes, is salvation more like a loan where you must fulfill your part (works), or do you really own your salvation and can honestly say you are saved, not in the process of being saved.

So I say that if in any of the dispensations you can lose your salvation, you should not use the word saved which is a past tense word. All you could claim is that you are in the process of getting saved.