Is a Christian who believes baptism is necessary for salvation not saved?

Andy C

Well-Known Member
And is there some visible difference between a Christian and someone who is not saved?
I wish I could say yes, but I suspect in some cases, the answer is no.

Someone could attend church every Sunday, tithe faithfully, know all the key buzz words for Chrisianty, but inside, their heart is a cold stone, no true love for Jesus, do not really believe all the bible.

Someone could seldom if ever attend church, have a drinking problem or some other vice, seldom employed, but inside, they could be loving Jesus, begging Him for help in their struggles, but too hard headed to truly allow it. Someday though, we know there will be some typ of change, the Light will eventually penetrate their darkness. Our problem is how do we know where this person is in their journey based on what we see?

You are a Pastor, and no doubt have helped many come to Jesus, confessing Him as their Savior. From that moment on, were they ALL a completely different person on the outside, never again to display bad behaviors?

Salvation simply cant be based on behaviors, and can only be the result of belief in Him as your Savior.
 
Psalm 130:2-4
2Lord, hear my voice: let thine ears be attentive to the voice of my supplications.
3If thou, LORD, shouldest mark iniquities, O Lord, who shall stand?
4But there is forgiveness with thee, that thou mayest be feared.

I believe the difference is the last word. Either we have it or we don't, the heart will either believe you've been paid for at the price of God's son or it won't. The sin of un-belief. Jude warned about it also.
 
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Andy C

Well-Known Member
A wise older man, once wrote the below on this forum that is now a sticky under the section of “Bible Study Q&A”

“Sadly, many do not ever even come close to fulfilling God’s will for their life. They may struggle with sin. They may struggle with worldly goals and priorities. They may struggle with truly trusting God with all of the issues of their life. The operative words are “they struggle with.” They desire to please God—some of them a lot, some of them perhaps very little—but they struggle with obeying God. Unfortunately, their lives are more wrapped up in themselves than in God: thus their faith is weak and they do not take advantage of what God has provided for them by way of prayer, worship, the Word and fellowship, and thus they continually fail and they never bring forth the fruit which God desires for them to produce and, indeed, designed them to produce. For all that, though, by heart-felt faith in Christ they are His.

I draw this from Christ’s explanation of the parable of the sower, as given in Matthew 13:19-23. There are four types of ground (human hearts) in which the seed is sown. One is hard and unprepared to receive the soil and the seed (the gospel) is snatched away by Satan (the birds). One is poor soil with no depth. There the gospel seed is sown but there is no depth for the roots to sink into and therefore when the heat of persecution comes, there is nothing to sustain it and the plant dies. One is good soil and the seed takes root and grows. Unfortunately, the things of life —“the worry of the world and the deceitfulness of wealth”—choke the word, and “it becomes unfruitful.” Finally, the last one is good soil and is kept free from the cares of this world and the plant grows and produces varying degrees of fruit. The fruitless ones I spoke of earlier are the third type of soil in the parable. They grow but are unfruitful. The fruitful ones are the ones truly pleasing to God and are the ones who will receive the rewards laid up for them in Heaven.

But all of that is speaking of sanctification and its rewards, not salvation. A saved person persists in faith in God. They may struggle and fail and fall. But they never give up faith. And consequently, God never gives up on them. They are saved because they maintain their faith in Jesus Christ and His sacrifice on their behalf. That is the sole basis of your salvation and my salvation, the sole basis on which you and I are guaranteed Heaven for eternity.

Thus, my answer to the question "what are the essentials of the Christian faith" is that the only essential is faith in Christ’s finished work. All else either forms the foundation for that faith or flows from it.”

————————————

Thanks Adrian, I have learned much from you over the years.

https://www.raptureforums.com/forums/threads/the-essentials-of-the-christian-faith.124579/
 

mattfivefour

Well-Known Member
You are a Pastor, and no doubt have helped many come to Jesus, confessing Him as their Savior. From that moment on, were they ALL a completely different person on the outside, never again to display bad behaviors?
Yes, I am. And no they were not. And that is why I have pressed on with responses in this thread. As a pastor I struggle with the underlying issue. I do not ever want to give people false hope. I do not want to stand before God and have many of those I preached to not be there because I did not give them the whole counsel of God! That is a terrifying thought!

I KNOW that salvation is by faith in Christ's finished work and in that alone. I of course made that point emphatically in the article you reference in your last post. So I must—and I do—accept that without reservation. But as a pastor I continually see that there are many who name the name of Christ but live like hell itself and engage in ungodly behaviors. Just look at the many ultra-liberal "churches" that promote abortion and same-sex "marriage" and deny many of the fundamental tenets of the Christian faith. If we are to accept them as fully saved, then why do we post articles against them? Why do we engage in spiritual discernment at all? Why do we post articles warning people of them? Might we be better served just giving up on these points and accepting that all who believe they are saved by faith are indeed saved? But if we were to do that, would we not be guilty of living a Christian version of the world's "all paths lead to God" philosophy?

Clearly the answers to those above questions cannot be equivocal. Nor can we ever say sin is acceptable ... in our eyes or God's. God saved us out of sin, not in sin. There has to be a fundamental change in a saved person. Initially it is internal; but at some point it must result in some external evidence ... of some sort ... and in some way.

So I suppose the issue at the center of this discussion (and of all such discussions) is not whether a person is saved by faith alone, but whether a person is truly saved in the first place. In other words, when a person claims salvation the average onlooker may be able to accept that on faith (pun intended), but the pastor cannot—not if he truly cares for each person's soul. As pastors we can—we must—like everyone else accept God's Word and not engage in subjective assessment of persons under our care. But at some point we must ultimately line a person up against the Word ... for their own soul's sake. Romans 2:3-8 is a very frightening passage and causes me to fear for those who claim Christ but whose behavior does not appear to reflect interest in Him. Lay members may not be constrained by these concerns (although the great commandment of Jesus Christ toward our fellow man I would hope would cause them to pray for them). But I do not have that luxury. No true shepherd does. We must walk the road of concern for the eternal souls of those whom God has entrusted to us. And it is a hard road to walk— not engaging in judgment of a person's salvation while at the very same time trying to ensure the person is truly saved. I struggle with it. That is why I would love to have some straightforward verse or verses that say that true faith in Christ must be evidenced by certain behaviors. Unfortunately, while the Word does say that the followers of Christ are to live by certain beliefs and demonstrate certain conduct from the heart, it does not give a simple answer to the question "How do we know if a person is truly saved?" And that is by design, I have no doubt, since God alone is that judge. Certainly we are not capable according to Matthew 13:28-29. Judgment of another's motives and salvation is the very judgment Christ told us we must not engage in.

Anyway, brother (and all else who read this), that is why I—as I said at the beginning of this reply—have pressed on with responses to this thread. I am hoping that in the debate, someone will say something on this subject that the Holy Spirit will use to help me in my ministry.

God bless you, Andy. You and your family are always in my prayers. As are the other precious souls here on this site.
 

Andy C

Well-Known Member
Yes, I am. And no they were not. And that is why I have pressed on with responses in this thread. As a pastor I struggle with the underlying issue. I do not ever want to give people false hope. I do not want to stand before God and have many of those I preached to not be there because I did not give them the whole counsel of God! That is a terrifying thought!

I KNOW that salvation is by faith in Christ's finished work and in that alone. I of course made that point emphatically in the article you reference in your last post. So I must—and I do—accept that without reservation. But as a pastor I continually see that there are many who name the name of Christ but live like hell itself and engage in ungodly behaviors. Just look at the many ultra-liberal "churches" that promote abortion and same-sex "marriage" and deny many of the fundamental tenets of the Christian faith. If we are to accept them as fully saved, then why do we post articles against them? Why do we engage in spiritual discernment at all? Why do we post articles warning people of them? Might we be better served just giving up on these points and accepting that all who believe they are saved by faith are indeed saved? But if we were to do that, would we not be guilty of living a Christian version of the world's "all paths lead to God" philosophy?

Clearly the answers to those above questions cannot be equivocal. Nor can we ever say sin is acceptable ... in our eyes or God's. God saved us out of sin, not in sin. There has to be a fundamental change in a saved person. Initially it is internal; but at some point it must result in some external evidence ... of some sort ... and in some way.

So I suppose the issue at the center of this discussion (and of all such discussions) is not whether a person is saved by faith alone, but whether a person is truly saved in the first place. In other words, when a person claims salvation the average onlooker may be able to accept that on faith (pun intended), but the pastor cannot—not if he truly cares for each person's soul. As pastors we can—we must—like everyone else accept God's Word and not engage in subjective assessment of persons under our care. But at some point we must ultimately line a person up against the Word ... for their own soul's sake. Romans 2:3-8 is a very frightening passage and causes me to fear for those who claim Christ but whose behavior does not appear to reflect interest in Him. Lay members may not be constrained by these concerns (although the great commandment of Jesus Christ toward our fellow man I would hope would cause them to pray for them). But I do not have that luxury. No true shepherd does. We must walk the road of concern for the eternal souls of those whom God has entrusted to us. And it is a hard road to walk— not engaging in judgment of a person's salvation while at the very same time trying to ensure the person is truly saved. I struggle with it. That is why I would love to have some straightforward verse or verses that say that true faith in Christ must be evidenced by certain behaviors. Unfortunately, while the Word does say that the followers of Christ are to live by certain beliefs and demonstrate certain conduct from the heart, it does not give a simple answer to the question "How do we know if a person is truly saved?" And that is by design, I have no doubt, since God alone is that judge. Certainly we are not capable according to Matthew 13:28-29. Judgment of another's motives and salvation is the very judgment Christ told us we must not engage in.

Anyway, brother (and all else who read this), that is why I—as I said at the beginning of this reply—have pressed on with responses to this thread. I am hoping that in the debate, someone will say something on this subject that the Holy Spirit will use to help me in my ministry.

God bless you, Andy. You and your family are always in my prayers. As are the other precious souls here on this site.
Thanks for this well thought out response.
 

Jeff K

Well-Known Member
While serving this past week at the local county fair in our church evangelism tent, I had a long conversation with a man who tried to convince me that salvation comes through faith in Jesus but also that good works, keeping the commandments, being baptized... were also conditions of one's salvation. I went verse after verse after verse showing him it is by grace through faith only that we are saved - he had no response other than that I was wrong. He even came back two days later to continue his argument. I finally told him that one cannot be saved unless it is through faith in Christ alone and that I had no desire to continue the conversation. His stance was the same as mine - because I did not believe his stance that works were required, I was not saved and was leading those I spoke with down the wrong path.

I talked to many people who told me they were going to heaven, or that they were a believer, yet when I asked them why they thought that or what do they believe, the answer was seldom Jesus Christ.

Because I cannot see the heart, I try not to assume one is saved or unsaved, but press on with questions and presenting the whole gospel. Facial expressions are exciting to watch when people hear the truth.
 

Andy C

Well-Known Member
While serving this past week at the local county fair in our church evangelism tent, I had a long conversation with a man who tried to convince me that salvation comes through faith in Jesus but also that good works, keeping the commandments, being baptized... were also conditions of one's salvation. I went verse after verse after verse showing him it is by grace through faith only that we are saved - he had no response other than that I was wrong. He even came back two days later to continue his argument. I finally told him that one cannot be saved unless it is through faith in Christ alone and that I had no desire to continue the conversation. His stance was the same as mine - because I did not believe his stance that works were required, I was not saved and was leading those I spoke with down the wrong path.

I talked to many people who told me they were going to heaven, or that they were a believer, yet when I asked them why they thought that or what do they believe, the answer was seldom Jesus Christ.

Because I cannot see the heart, I try not to assume one is saved or unsaved, but press on with questions and presenting the whole gospel. Facial expressions are exciting to watch when people hear the truth.
Yes. I once asked a bible study group I was in about salvation. I asked because over time, certain comments were made that I had issues with, as I believed they were in conflict with the bible. Very interesting what many believe leads to salvation. My question about salvation is seldom asked to those who attend church, as many assume they already know the answer. Its hard for folks to understand salvation if their bible is simply on display on their mantle, with dust on the outside.
 

DanLMP

Well-Known Member
Wow, third page. I guess I could comment.

The minute you decide that a single work is needed to add to your salvation then from a logical perspective human beings should be able to perform sufficient work for our salvation.

That obviously makes it unnecessary for Jesus to die on a cross, if we can ourselves perform sufficient work.

So what is a work and what is not? Let's look at the question from a different perspective.

The essential sin that created the first break and all subsequent breaks between ourselves and God was not relying on God for guiding our lives. We told and tell God "we got this, don't need help". Obviously God knows that we don't got this and that he did not make us to be independent units non reliant on Him. He made us to be part of His family and he built us with limitations which allow us to grow. God did not create us to be God's (capital "G") equivalent to Him. He created us to be god's (small "g") that rely on Him and work with Him in His creation, following His guidance and plan for creation, to co-rule creation. Our deviation from this plan was the first sin.

The fact that God made us to rely on Him means that when we look on defining sin or works or anything, we need to look at it from the perspective of God, not us.

So what is a work and what is not? A work could then be defined as doing or trying to do something from our own perspective and not God's. God defines work and as far as I can make out He has defined it as relying on ourselves.

We have been given a pretty clear mandate in Scripture on how we come by our salvation. Faith in Jesus' finished work. HIS work. That's it, that's all, done , end of sentence, nothing else added.

There are plenty of Scripture verses that tell us to be Baptized. There are plenty of OP's that describe different types of Baptism: Spiritual and water. But there are plenty of Scripture verses that tell us that salvation is by faith in Jesus' finished work. And since the Bible can't contradict itself and applying the principle of Occam's Razor we should conclude that the simplest explanation is the correct explanation. Salvation by faith in Jesus' finished work.

As to who is and is not saved based on their beliefs and opinions; when we finally get to be with our Father I think we should all expect to find out that we did not, any of us, have it all correct. And this is part of the reason I believe that God made the bar for Salvation so easy and simple. He knew that none of us was going to be 100% correct in our beliefs so He only gave us one thing to believe in.

So who else besides you is saved and not saved? God knows, and that is sufficient.
 

ItIsFinished!

Blood bought child of the King of kings.
Yes, I am. And no they were not. And that is why I have pressed on with responses in this thread. As a pastor I struggle with the underlying issue. I do not ever want to give people false hope. I do not want to stand before God and have many of those I preached to not be there because I did not give them the whole counsel of God! That is a terrifying thought!

I KNOW that salvation is by faith in Christ's finished work and in that alone. I of course made that point emphatically in the article you reference in your last post. So I must—and I do—accept that without reservation. But as a pastor I continually see that there are many who name the name of Christ but live like hell itself and engage in ungodly behaviors. Just look at the many ultra-liberal "churches" that promote abortion and same-sex "marriage" and deny many of the fundamental tenets of the Christian faith. If we are to accept them as fully saved, then why do we post articles against them? Why do we engage in spiritual discernment at all? Why do we post articles warning people of them? Might we be better served just giving up on these points and accepting that all who believe they are saved by faith are indeed saved? But if we were to do that, would we not be guilty of living a Christian version of the world's "all paths lead to God" philosophy?

Clearly the answers to those above questions cannot be equivocal. Nor can we ever say sin is acceptable ... in our eyes or God's. God saved us out of sin, not in sin. There has to be a fundamental change in a saved person. Initially it is internal; but at some point it must result in some external evidence ... of some sort ... and in some way.

So I suppose the issue at the center of this discussion (and of all such discussions) is not whether a person is saved by faith alone, but whether a person is truly saved in the first place. In other words, when a person claims salvation the average onlooker may be able to accept that on faith (pun intended), but the pastor cannot—not if he truly cares for each person's soul. As pastors we can—we must—like everyone else accept God's Word and not engage in subjective assessment of persons under our care. But at some point we must ultimately line a person up against the Word ... for their own soul's sake. Romans 2:3-8 is a very frightening passage and causes me to fear for those who claim Christ but whose behavior does not appear to reflect interest in Him. Lay members may not be constrained by these concerns (although the great commandment of Jesus Christ toward our fellow man I would hope would cause them to pray for them). But I do not have that luxury. No true shepherd does. We must walk the road of concern for the eternal souls of those whom God has entrusted to us. And it is a hard road to walk— not engaging in judgment of a person's salvation while at the very same time trying to ensure the person is truly saved. I struggle with it. That is why I would love to have some straightforward verse or verses that say that true faith in Christ must be evidenced by certain behaviors. Unfortunately, while the Word does say that the followers of Christ are to live by certain beliefs and demonstrate certain conduct from the heart, it does not give a simple answer to the question "How do we know if a person is truly saved?" And that is by design, I have no doubt, since God alone is that judge. Certainly we are not capable according to Matthew 13:28-29. Judgment of another's motives and salvation is the very judgment Christ told us we must not engage in.

Anyway, brother (and all else who read this), that is why I—as I said at the beginning of this reply—have pressed on with responses to this thread. I am hoping that in the debate, someone will say something on this subject that the Holy Spirit will use to help me in my ministry.

God bless you, Andy. You and your family are always in my prayers. As are the other precious souls here on this site.
Pastor/brother/friend , that was and is a great response.
Very pastoral like ;) .
I agree 100% with what you said , and yes with out a shadow of doubt it is a concern and struggle.
Adrian you have a very tender heart and love for Christ that is seen through so many of your posts.
And yes there should absolutely be some evidence of ones salvation to some degree which James writes a lot about, which many misinterpret and teach false doctrines.
And yes in the end only God knows.
But, out of love for the souls in the balance we keep an eye out, we observed , we ask questions ect...
Does not a shepherd keep check on his flock?
I look forward to meeting you and all on this forum in glory.
One day I might post my testimony.
It is quite amazing as all the testimonies of God's absolutely, amazing grace are.
The Lord did give me a title for it the other day, and it is as follows...
On the road with The Grateful Dead.......and God...
;)
Much love in our Saviours name.
 

Tall Timbers

Imperfect but forgiven
I wish I could say yes, but I suspect in some cases, the answer is no.

Someone could attend church every Sunday, tithe faithfully, know all the key buzz words for Chrisianty, but inside, their heart is a cold stone, no true love for Jesus, do not really believe all the bible.

Someone could seldom if ever attend church, have a drinking problem or some other vice, seldom employed, but inside, they could be loving Jesus, begging Him for help in their struggles, but too hard headed to truly allow it. Someday though, we know there will be some typ of change, the Light will eventually penetrate their darkness. Our problem is how do we know where this person is in their journey based on what we see?

You are a Pastor, and no doubt have helped many come to Jesus, confessing Him as their Savior. From that moment on, were they ALL a completely different person on the outside, never again to display bad behaviors?

Salvation simply cant be based on behaviors, and can only be the result of belief in Him as your Savior.

Well said, Andy.
 
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