How does a believer fall away, 2 Thess/apostasia question

[Momma D]

I heard a powerful teaching last week that covered this point.
A person who blithely says they accept Jesus, and continues in their sin, is using that confession as fire insurance, with no signs of leaving their sin behind, was not actually saved. They are the ones to whom God will say...I never knew you.
He went on to say our fairh is not static...it either grows, or regresses.

This sounded much better from the preacher...I am of course paraphasing.

 

[Momma D]

I absolutely believe if we are truly saved and repent, we are always saved, even if we sin at times.
We will always repent and turn back to Jesus as fully as we possibly can because our hearts will be repelled by that sin,
because we are running TO Jesus.

 

[Forgiven1]

This is a tough one. I have a 19 year old daughter who accepted Christ at age 9, and I did see a change in her at the time. Now she had fallen away, very worldly, no interest in things of God. Was she never saved? Is she saved but living in disobedience? I wish I knew.

 

[heisable2]

Grant Jeffrey and Thomas Ice also believe the falling away is the Rapture. I do also.

Falling away is the rapture? I thought that falling away has to happen before the rapture.

 

[lightofmylife]

Falling away is the rapture? I thought that falling away has to happen before the rapture.

Some people believe the falling away is departure others falling away from the truth. I will try to find Thomas Ice article on the departure point of view. https://www.pre-trib.org/pretribfiles/pdfs/Ice-TheDepartureIn2Thess2-3.pdf

 

[Matthew6:33]

This is a tough one. I have a 19 year old daughter who accepted Christ at age 9, and I did see a change in her at the time. Now she had fallen away, very worldly, no interest in things of God. Was she never saved? Is she saved but living in disobedience? I wish I knew.

This was how I was at probably 4-5 years old-- I believe I accepted Christ at that time. I had a peace that surpassed understanding and I can still remember it to this day...

However, my dad wasn't a Christian and my mom wasn't strong in her faith... That plus the public school system, university, and punk friends I hung around with, you would not have been able to distinguish me from an unbeliever, trust me.

But that all changed once I actually sought the reason to my existence and rediscovered God and the powerful truths I learned as a child. I believe this was due to the prayers of some family members.

I don't know why I am telling you this but maybe it will help. God bless.

 

[GotGrace]

I believe Andy Woods is correct.

A believer can never fall away/lose salvation, no matter how bad at times their behavior is. OSAS. We certainly can fall out of fellowship for a time, confessing our sins to regain fellowship. This can be a back and forth battle for all until we are called Home.

CORRECT. We lose fellowship with the Father until we repent and ask for forgiveness then our fellowship is restored because He is faithful and just to forgive us our sin.
We (saved) cannot be removed from his hand. Refusal to repent can lead to divine discipline and that can be most painful.

Those who fall away IMHO were never really saved. I can‘t help but wonder if some of what we see now are the screaming people (screaming for their rights to sin) that used to fill pews.

 

[Les St. Amand]

This is a tough one. I have a 19 year old daughter who accepted Christ at age 9, and I did see a change in her at the time. Now she had fallen away, very worldly, no interest in things of God. Was she never saved? Is she saved but living in disobedience? I wish I knew.

In the same boat with a few children. God knows for certain and I have to trust that he knows our hearts desires and the burden there that we have for our children.
My children know where I stand, but I show them much love and grace, even though I do not agree with some of their decisions. Show them why we think they are making not a good decision or the reason behind what we think. Our kids are all adults (5 of them) and they ultimately have to make their own decisions, good or not so good, and learn from it. I was there once myself. Have left behind letters and material for them, just incase.

 

[Kerbluey]

I haven’t abandoned this thread. I’m still reading it. I appreciate y’all giving me such good food for thought.

 

[Reason & Hope]

In the same boat with a few children. God knows for certain and I have to trust that he knows our hearts desires and the burden there that we have for our children.
My children know where I stand, but I show them much love and grace, even though I do not agree with some of their decisions. Show them why we think they are making not a good decision or the reason behind what we think. Our kids are all adults (5 of them) and they ultimately have to make their own decisions, good or not so good, and learn from it. I was there once myself. Have left behind letters and material for them, just incase.

My oldest (just turned 30!) was my most spiritual kid. He led worship for high school group at church into his college years and even led worship for the main church as a sub. Then some difficult things happened to him and he went to grad school for physics, and he went to church for a while, but has totally dropped away.

I wonder, Are these his prodigal years and he'll return to the Lord? Or was he never really saved and just acted like it because he's a people pleaser, and now he's around lefty atheists so he adopts their beliefs? All I can do is pray. God knows his heart and what he needs to get right with Jesus.

 

[Momma D]

I wonder, Are these his prodigal years and he'll return to the Lord? Or was he never really saved and just acted like it because he's a people pleaser, and now he's around lefty atheists so he adopts their beliefs? All I can do is pray. God knows his heart and what he needs to get right with Jesus.

God truly is the only one who knows.
If he was truly saved, the Lord will bring him back.
We will continue praying for him, and know the Lord said He will not lose one that the Father has given him.

 

[KenE@21B]

Like many Believing parents, I too have a child who is a cause for concern....

She attended a Christian school for 12 years, gave her heart to the Lord at a moderately young age, and for many years displayed all the fruit one would expect from a born-again Believer.

However, a disastrous marriage which ended in divorce (after just 14 months) has had an enormous impact on her life. She nows lives with a man (he is a good, caring man but is not a Spirit-filled Believer) and justifies this by saying that she got married 'the right way' which just led to heartbreak.

My wife and I have realised that we basically have two choices - to love her unconditionally (while praying earnestly and persistently for her) or to possibly push her away and lose her by trying to make her see that her lifestyle is not acceptable to the Lord according to His Word.

I am very concerned that she may be 'left behind' when the Lord comes to fetch His Bride, because I know that the only way she would then be able to get into the Kingdom would be as a 'Tribulation martyr' - I wouldn't wish this fate on anyone.

So, every day I pray (with thanksgiving) that the Lord will continue to draw her by His Holy Spirit, and that He would use every means at His disposal to bring her safely back into the fold before it is too late.

I pray this same prayer for my brothers and their children (all of whom are living in blatant rebellion) - a few months ago my one nephew lost his best friend in a vehicle accident and just last week his sister (my niece) miraculously escaped with just minor scratches and bruises when her vehicle was t-boned and written off at a traffic intersection!

These experiences have made them both take a long, hard (and overdue) look at their own mortality and eternal destiny.

I know in Whom I have trusted, and that He is absolutely able to deliver on every promise - so I shall continue to pray my family (and friends) into the Kingdom no matter how scary things get.
Ultimately I have no choice but to trust Him and accept that His will shall be done according to His infinite wisdom.

 

[wanderingfreeman]

Like many Believing parents, I too have a child who is a cause for concern....

She attended a Christian school for 12 years, gave her heart to the Lord at a moderately young age, and for many years displayed all the fruit one would expect from a born-again Believer.

However, a disastrous marriage which ended in divorce (after just 14 months) has had an enormous impact on her life. She nows lives with a man (he is a good, caring man but is not a Spirit-filled Believer) and justifies this by saying that she got married 'the right way' which just led to heartbreak.

My wife and I have realised that we basically have two choices - to love her unconditionally (while praying earnestly and persistently for her) or to possibly push her away and lose her by trying to make her see that her lifestyle is not acceptable to the Lord according to His Word.

I am very concerned that she may be 'left behind' when the Lord comes to fetch His Bride, because I know that the only way she would then be able to get into the Kingdom would be as a 'Tribulation martyr' - I wouldn't wish this fate on anyone.

So, every day I pray (with thanksgiving) that the Lord will continue to draw her by His Holy Spirit, and that He would use every means at His disposal to bring her safely back into the fold before it is too late.

I pray this same prayer for my brothers and their children (all of whom are living in blatant rebellion) - a few months ago my one nephew lost his best friend in a vehicle accident and just last week his sister (my niece) miraculously escaped with just minor scratches and bruises when her vehicle was t-boned and written off at a traffic intersection!

These experiences have made them both take a long, hard (and overdue) look at their own mortality and eternal destiny.

I know in Whom I have trusted, and that He is absolutely able to deliver on every promise - so I shall continue to pray my family (and friends) into the Kingdom no matter how scary things get.
Ultimately I have no choice but to trust Him and accept that His will shall be done according to His infinite wisdom.

Praying for her and your family

 

[Carl]

My daughter is basically in the same boat. She had bible studies in the playground at recess and noon. Loved the Lord. Then she became involved with nonChristian guys. Now I have two grand children and the dad is gone. Well she knows where I am in the whole thing. So not throw her out of my life. I really think that she is saved. I will have chances to talk about it sometime.
The point is your daughter is in kinda the same fix. Pray, wait and see! I don't think she will be left behind.

 

[JoyJoyJoy]

I have a daughter in that boat with the rest of yall's children.

However, I rode in that boat for most of my adult years. Saved as a child then wandered into wickedness. I was a carnal Christian.
Then Jesus called me back to Himself and has taught me so many lessons...some lessons that I didn't want to know!!

We need to remember that Faith alone in Christ alone is how we are saved. I think these grown children are saved, just wondering from God. He will call them back when the time is right and as @GotGrace said, it may be a painful process...sanctification hurts sometimes. But He will not lose a single one of His Own.
A Bible teacher that I listen to says that a carnal Christian can sin worse/more than an unsaved person. But a carnal Christian is still saved.
I also think we make Salvation harder than it is....but that is a rant for another day.

 

[daygo]

I have a daughter in that boat with the rest of yall's children.

However, I rode in that boat for most of my adult years. Saved as a child then wandered into wickedness. I was a carnal Christian.
Then Jesus called me back to Himself and has taught me so many lessons...some lessons that I didn't want to know!!

We need to remember that Faith alone in Christ alone is how we are saved. I think these grown children are saved, just wondering from God. He will call them back when the time is right and as @GotGrace said, it may be a painful process...sanctification hurts sometimes. But He will not lose a single one of His Own.
A Bible teacher that I listen to says that a carnal Christian can sin worse/more than an unsaved person. But a carnal Christian is still saved.
I also think we make Salvation harder than it is....but that is a rant for another day.

Well said.

 

[Wally]

Once chosen, often life with Christ is filled with struggles.

We may lose our grip, we may fall flat on our face, we may find ourselves in places we should not be,
yet we have that humbling spirit that recognizes our failures, our bad desires, our fleshy inclinations,
and we find ourselves driven right back to His feet.

Its because we have rooted in Him.


One may wonder about those who seemed to produce fruit for God, and do really well, then abandon Him.

We know God will not lose those who are His
We know there are those who masquerade as His but are strangers to Him
We know that by works, no flesh is saved, it is by faith

Is our problem our desire to know everything God knows - like the hearts of men?
Surely we do not want to be deceived, so we continue to faithe even when we don't understand.

There are churches full of people yet how many are truly Christ's?
We just don't know.

But start a persecution,
make it more and more difficult to profess and follow Christ,
make evangelism a severe crime,
and you will see people either shine, or run away.

Matthew 10:33
But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father in heaven.

I am convinced if we are Christ's, we are not able to deny Him, for He has sealed us and the Spirit will give us the power to stand.

Romans 14:4
Who are you to criticize another’s household slave? Before his own Lord he stands or falls. And he will stand. For the Lord is able to make him stand.

I am regularly reminded as I pass the harvested fields of grain, the seed has been gathered....
after storms, drought, deer, bugs, and a winnowing process that you would think would turn the seed into flour before it even got to the mill.

Much may be God's harvesting right up to the Rapture. It may be very intense down here, but such a winnowing separates seed form chaff.
Once the seed is gathered, that is when you burn the waste.

 

[Dave_97]

We need to remember that Faith alone in Christ alone is how we are saved. I think these grown children are saved, just wondering from God. He will call them back when the time is right and as @GotGrace said, it may be a painful process...sanctification hurts sometimes. But He will not lose a single one of His Own.
A Bible teacher that I listen to says that a carnal Christian can sin worse/more than an unsaved person. But a carnal Christian is still saved.
I also think we make Salvation harder than it is....but that is a rant for another day.

Just to add on to this conversation. It honestly comes down to whether or not they truly trusted in Christ for salvation.

Like many stories here, I got saved 5 years ago in a radical way. Stopped living a life a sin immediately and started reading the Bible, worshiping and praying consistently for 1 year. However, I started compromising in 1 particular area of sin, it became a struggling again, I could honestly see my relationship with the Lord going downhill. But by the grace of God I started fighting to get back to living in freedom, and I still am. This year itself hasn’t been the best, but thanks to God I’ve been resilient to continue down that path.

Which brings to my point, I realize a very harsh truth, as a believer you can shipwreck your faith (not losing salvation), but living as a carnal Christian that can have severe consequences and even discipline from the Lord. It’s very difficult cause our generation faces so much temptation as we get closer to the Lords return. So it very well could be many of these young girls and boys were truly saved but are just not living for the Lord currently. I would honestly just tell them the truth of the dangers of their current lifestyle for two reasons.

1. They could be saved, but as a believer living in sin can destroy your faith and calling for God. You start living in fear unsure of your own salvation. Since the enemy knows you’re saved, he will try and take you out for good, that even if you repent, you might have destroyed your reputation, or even cause you to die during your season of un-repentance. Lastly, God himself might discipline you, which is not always pleasant.

2. The harsh reality is you might not be saved. Personally this comes down to the the heart. I think a believer who lives in sin will never find rest. The Holy Sprit just doesn’t mix with sin. So if there is no conviction, no sign of repentance, or even urgency or slight fear of the Lord, I would be a little concerned and try share the gospel again to make sure they understood it and believe in it. However, even if they exhibit all these signs it doesn’t mean always they are not saved, only God knows the condition of the heart, and he can reveal to the person if they seek him for direction. So start with prayer and please have this tough discussion.

Lastly, I don’t mean to take the conversation, keep me in prayers as well. I’m very motivated to fight my flesh until the day I see Jesus. The battle is fierce out here.

 

[JoyJoyJoy]

Personally this comes down to the the heart. I think a believer who lives in sin will never find rest. The Holy Sprit just doesn’t mix with sin.

I think that carnal Christians may be what *grieves the Spirit* and I grieved Him plenty. I am ashamed of my actions now. I have felt the sting of discipline. But I know I am being refined, sanctified.

Through all my sin, I still believed in Jesus but at the time, my churches all preached salvation could be lost...so even in my sin I prayed for forgiveness but didn't change my ways. How can believer do this?? I dont know but I did...I guess I used my free will to over come the Spirit????
But when God has given you much grace and chances to return to Him, and you refuse, He will get your attention. And now, today, I am thankful for it. Living life carnally is an illusion of happiness...Joy is found in The Lord.

 

[Reason & Hope]

justifies this by saying that she got married 'the right way' which just led to heartbreak.

However, a disastrous marriage which ended in divorce (after just 14 months) has had an enormous impact on her life. She now lives with a man (he is a good, caring man but is not a Spirit-filled Believer) and justifies this by saying that she got married 'the right way' which just led to heartbreak.

That's my oldest son. He "did everything right" but his wife left him after 15 months of marriage. Now he's living with someone -- and from a secular perspective, it's understandable to feel burned.