How did you get saved before jesus?

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Work4Peanuts

I like being just a Well-Known Member
How did you get saved before jesus?
What happend to the people before jesus came?
Did they burn in hell or how can they get saved?
If jesus hadn't yet died at that time
Jesus tells about the rich man and Lazarus. There are a lot of people who think it's a parable, but since one of the characters in the story is named, I don't think so. There was a separate part in hell called Abraham's Bosom where those who put their trust in the coming Savior would await redemption. According to Abraham in the story there was a vast gulf between the unrepentant sinner's side and the faithful.
 

Work4Peanuts

I like being just a Well-Known Member
I just realized that I didn't answer your earlier questions. In order to get to Abraham's Bosom, people had to put their faith in God and the Messiah to come and offer sacrifices for the sins that they committed to show that faith
Galatians 3:6 Says that Even so Abraham believed God and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.
 

ragamuffin

Active Member
Here's my Scriptual based understanding:

God has changed how He has interacted with man over time. The three time frames I'll refer to are "Times Past", "but now", and "Ages to Come". Each of these eras are described in Ephesians 2. In "Times Past" there were clearly two classes of people, the Circumcision (Jews) and the Uncircumcision (Gentiles). God's covenants of promise were exclusively with Israel (Jews). In reference to Gentiles during that time, Paul writes (Gentiles had NO hope!):

That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: - Ephesians 2:12

The only way a Gentile could be put on a path towards salvation during "Times Past" was if they became a Jew and placed themselves under the law. However, in the "But Now" time frame, salvation is available to all men since there is no longer any distinction between Jew or Gentile.

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. - Galatians 3:28

It's interesting what Jesus Himself says in regard to dealing with a Gentile in the "Times Past" era:

But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. - Matthew 15:24

Paul echos this in Romans noting that during "Times Past", Jesus (in the flesh... i.e. during the Gospels) was soley focused on the Jews only.

Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers: - Romans 15:8

Jesus also directed his disciples to practice exactly this same thing:

These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. - Matthew 10:5-6


When Jesus was alive as a man in the flesh, He was fully God, and fully man. However, as noted in Mark there were some things He, as the Son of Man didn't know (i.e. "neither the Son")

But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. - Mark 13:32

I believe based on this verse above, that Jesus in the flesh knew nothing about the "but now" time frame we're currently living in (it was hid exclusively in God the Father). Jesus' future focus while alive was soley on the remaining 7 years of Tribulation due Israel before the kingdom could be established.

This is validated by several scriptures (Paul refers to as the mystery... i.e. this "but now" era) written after Jesus died and rose:

And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: - Ephesians 3:9

Note that this says "hid in God", God the Father... not Jesus Christ. So I don't think Jesus knew about the "but now" era while He was alive. Jesus was soley focused on Jews and the law during his life on earth in the flesh.

Now to answer your question... Jews never were assured of individual "immediate" Salvation as is available to everyone during this "but now" era. Their salvation was always future based, looking forward to a future physical kingdom on earth with the Messiah sitting on David's throne in the temple.

The LORD hath sworn in truth unto David;
He will not turn from it;
Of the fruit of thy body will I set upon thy throne.
If thy children will keep my covenant And my testimony that I shall teach them,
Their children shall also sit upon thy throne for evermore. - Psalm 132:11-12


(Isaiah 9:7 | Jeremiah 17:25 | Jeremiah 22:2,4 | Jeremiah 23:5-6 | Ezekiel 37:24-25 | Hosea 3:4-5 | Amos 9:11-15 | Acts 1:6-8)

Jews that die today want to be first in line for this kingdom when their "Messiah" returns to the Mount of Olives and pay large sums of money to be buried as close as possible to the Mount of Olives.

Jews that died during "Times Past" era resided in Abraham's bosom (Luke 16:20) which had a chasm separating the two areas of "comforts" and "torments" (Luke 16:25).

When Jesus ascended he led captivity captive which I understand as taking the "comforts" side of Abraham's bosom with Him temporarily to Heaven (remember, their ultimate destiny as Jews is the kingdom on earth).

Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) - Ephesians 4:8-10

So when do Jews "of faith" who looked forward to the future kingdom receive their salvation? They'll receive their salvation at the same time as the yet future "Ages to Come" Jews receive theirs!

After the rapture, this "but now" era will close... and then the "Ages to Come" era will begin. This is where the Jews become the exclusive focus of God once again. And God's workings with man will change yet again. Goodbye "but now"!

Salvation for the Jews will occur at the commencement of the Tribulation during the 2nd coming of Jesus Christ their Messiah (our Savior). Jesus will usher in the kingdom which is exclusively Jewish after the "Judgment of the Nations" takes place (i.e. the Sheep and Goat judgment - Matthew 25:32-33). The "sheep" are the faithful Jews who survived the Tribulation (Jesus is their Shepherd). The goats are the gentile "believers" alive at the end of the Tribulation that proved their righteousness in their care of Jews exactly as Jesus said they would in Matthew 25 (i.e. like Shindler did in WWII). However, Gentile destiny is not the Kingdom... that's why they are separated.

When you hear the terms "bunt", "balk", "strike", and "home-run" you immediately associate those terms with the sport of baseball or softball. If you read the Bible and associate "kingdom" with Jews... everything will begin to make much more sense. Otherwise you'll say "strikeout" at a football game and everyone will look at you sideways.

Therefore, when reading the following verses in 1st Corinthians... be ready for the jolt (this is ***NOT*** a rapture verse):

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God;
neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump:
for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

- 1 Corinthians 15:50-53

Every Jew of all time who is still alive, or who died in faith will be ressurrected... and at that moment of entering their kingdom, they will receive their long awaited salvation. Guess WHO will be seated on the throne?

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. - Revelation 20:6

Jews are always encouraged to "persevere to the end" to receive their salvation (those "churches" in Revelation 2 and 3 are Jewish assemblies in the "Ages to Come" era... all are required to persevere, there is no grace mentioned at all). We on the other hand already have our salvation... why do we get such a sweet deal and the Jews don't?

I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. - Romans 11:11

The destiny of the Body of Christ is in the Heavenlies... the earth has always been the destiny for Israel. God makes that perfectly clear from the first verse etched in the Bible:

IN the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. - Genesis 1:1
 

Rocky R.

Well-Known Member
It's all tied to Jesus Christ. Before the Incarnation, through faith in God's future work (sending of Messiah), you were saved. Regarding Abraham in Genesis 15:6, " And he believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness. " Without faith it is impossible to please God. Jesus also paid for the sins of those who lived prior to His incarnation. Revelation 13:8 speaks of the "lamb slain from the foundation of the world." Now, we know that the Crucifixion event of Christ took place a little over 2000 years ago, so what does "from the foundation of the world" mean? "From the foundation of the world" means prior to the beginning of the world, which means that the Crucifixion event at some point while Jesus was hanging from it actually transcended all of time. It was most likely when the skies were darkened and Jesus cried out, "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?" With the Crucifixion event taking place in time and outside of time, Jesus actually paid for the sins of all humankind, all who would put their faith in God. God Almighty moved Heaven and Earth, time and space and God the Son in order to grant us salvation. Gives more meaning to "Amazing Grace", doesn't it?
 

Work4Peanuts

I like being just a Well-Known Member
... The "sheep" are the faithful Jews who survived the Tribulation (Jesus is their Shepherd). The goats are the gentile "believers" alive at the end of the Tribulation that proved their righteousness in their care of Jews exactly as Jesus said they would in Matthew 25 (i.e. like Shindler did in WWII). However, Gentile destiny is not the Kingdom... that's why they are separated....
This is not accurate. The goats are not righteous gentiles. The response to the goats comes later in the same chapter of Matthew. Remember the sheep are to the right, and the goats to the left:

Matthew 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels"

The sheep are the faithful Christians, many of whom will be Jews after the softening of their hearts and turning toward their Messiah, and the goats will be all those who have utterly rejected God, and chosen their own sinful way.
 

ragamuffin

Active Member
This is not accurate. The goats are not righteous gentiles.

Here's my understanding of this portion Matthew 25 scripture... there are 3 "destinations" noted in the scripture here (highlighted in these three colors)...

v34 - kingdom
v41 & v46 - everlasting fire/punishment
v46 - life eternal

Here's the setup:
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.


Here's where Jesus (Shepherd to the Jews) addresses the sheep... (right hand):
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Here's where Jesus addresses the goats in regard to their GOOD treatment of Jews (left hand - these are obviously the "good guys"):
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall
the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.


Here's where Jesus address the goats in regard to their BAD treatment of Jews (left hand - these are obviously the "bad guys"):
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.


Here's where Jesus directs the two groups in his left hand:
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Note: v41 uses the word "also"... this "also" associates the group attributed in v41-45 together in the left hand with the group attributed in v35-40
 
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mattfivefour

Well-Known Member
Brother, I have known for years how much you love the Lord and have served him faithfully for such a long time. And I can see you have put a great deal of thought into the doctrine you are presenting in your posts in this thread. But being honest, I think that the doctrine you are sharing here is at odds with Scripture. Humbly, I think there are some conclusions that you have drawn from Scripture that I do not believe --based on the fullness of Scripture-- are warranted.

I firmly believe that when Paul said in the context of a lengthy argument showing that righteousness by faith accomplished what the Law could not, namely salvation for the one who believes, says “Everyone believing on Christ will not be put to shame. For there is no difference between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord of all is rich toward all those calling Him, for, Whoever shall call upon the name of the Lord will be saved.” (Romans 10:11-13) And when, in Romans 3:21-24, in the context again of a teaching showing the means of salvation for Jews and Gentiles, he says "apart from Law, the righteousness of God has been revealed, being borne witness to by the Law and the Prophets. And the righteousness of God is through faith from Jesus Christ toward all those believing. For there is no distinction, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" I think he is telling us exactly what the Holy Spirit desires us to know-- that the Jews and the Gentiles who believe in Christ become one new "man," being the body of Christ. I think your doctrine disputes the thrust of those verses.

In any case, brother, I want to give respect to your arguments by dealing with them verse by verse and topic by topic. However, it is far too late tonight to do that as I have to get some sleep: Wednesday is going to be a busy day. I will try to post my specific responses to your doctrinal points tomorrow evening after I finish the work I have to do.

In the meantime, I am going to temporarily "freeze" this thread so nobody else can jump in and possibly derail this discussion or muddy the waters with too much argument before I have had a chance to present my responses to your detailed theology. I'll re-open this thread as soon as I have posted.

God bless!

UPDATE 8/5/20 - 2330: I'm working on it.

UPDATE 8/7/20 - 0500: Major computer crash late yesterday, been trying to fix problem all night. Updating this on my phone. Will post what I was half way through finishing as soon as I can get back into my computer. But today is Andrea's 72nd birthday so it'll be MUCH later in the day before I can finish. So sorry.
 
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