How Committed Are We To Jesus?

Chris

Administrator
Staff member
How Committed Are We To Jesus?
By Grant Phillips

Elijah Ogunyi of Gashua, of Yobe state, Nigeria said of his life as a minister in that region, “Persecution is a part of Christian life. If truly we pastors are called by God, we should expect persecution.” [The Voice of the Martyrs, August 2022, Vol. 56 No.8]

Seventeen-year-old Moses Joseph of Kudana state, Nigeria lost his father to what he believes was militant Muslim Fulani herdsmen, but it has not stopped him from following Jesus. He said, “Persecution cannot stop me from going to church services and going about my regular church activities. It will not stop me from telling anyone about Christ.” [The Voice of the Martyrs, August 2022, Vol. 56 No.8]

Pastor Emmanuel Maigairi of Kudana state, Nigeria suffered much at the hands of kidnappers, but had this to say, “I know that persecution is a part of the Christian life. We who are Christians will suffer. If this doesn’t happen to us, the Bible is not fulfilled.” [The Voice of the Martyrs, August 2022, Vol. 56 No.8]

Despite its problems, and they are many, I feel so blessed that I live in a country that is the polar opposite of countries where other Christians face persecution and death on a daily basis. Even though Christians may not be facing persecution as a whole in America, there have been several instances of Christian persecution, usually coming from bogus court cases. It will get worse as we get closer and closer to the day of the Lord.

Jesus said, “If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you.” (John 15:18). He said in the Sermon on the Mount, “Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake.” (Matthew 5:11) He also tells us, “These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.” (John 16:33)

I sometimes wonder how we would react in America if we lived under the same conditions that Elijah Ogunyi, Moses Joseph, and Emmanuel Maigairi face daily.

Wikipedia suggests that 65-75% of our population (or 230-250 million) are Christians. Personally, I don’t buy it, because Jesus said, “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.” (Matthew 7:13-14) I’ll tell you what, let’s just leave the percentages and numbers to God. I’m sure He will know when the full number of the Gentiles has come in (Romans 11:25).

I guess what concerns me for the spiritual welfare of so many who call themselves a Christian is, “which road did they take, the wide way or the narrow way?”

Jesus said, “For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him the Son of Man also will be ashamed when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.” (Mark 8:38) Yet, few of us who say we are a Christian actually walk the talk outside the walls of the church building.

Within the walls, why is it that many, consistently, will rush to the altar at the close of each Sunday morning service to pray, but are also consistently absent for the Sunday evening service and the Wednesday evening Bible study?

Could all this have something to do with true repentance and a real commitment? God said to Israel, “…For your faithfulness is like a morning cloud, And like the early dew it goes away. For I desire mercy and not sacrifice, And the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.” (Hosea 6:4, 6) In other words, stop playing church and follow me.

Israel had gotten to the point that their actions toward God were merely routine religious genuflecting that meant nothing at all. Their heart was far away from God. God said in Deuteronomy, “You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength.” (Deuteronomy 6:5) Jesus repeated those same words in Matthew 22:37-38. Jesus also said, “…If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.” (Luke 9:23-24) Maybe it’s not what we are committed to but Who we are committed to.

If we are not committed to the Lord Jesus Christ when there is little to no persecution, how will we react when persecution comes upon us? Most of us who claim Christ in this country would turn tail and run if we had to face life and death persecution for our faith in Jesus. That would definitely cull the church rolls. Nobody, myself included, desires persecution of any kind, but Jesus did say that He has overcome the world (John 16:33). Do we trust Him?

Can we honestly say along with the apostle Paul, “I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.” (Galatians 2:20) and, “For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain.” (Philippians 1:21)

Job was persecuted mightily by Satan’s own hand, and what did he say about his trust in God? He said, “Though He slay me, yet will I trust Him. Even so, I will defend my own ways before Him.” (Job 13:15)

Is it possible that most who claim Christ today will hear Jesus say, “I never knew you, depart from Me?” “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!” (Matthew 7:23)

Through the apostle Paul, the Lord challenges all of us to, “Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you? — unless indeed you are disqualified.” (2 Corinthians 13:5)

https://www.raptureforums.com/spiritual-life/how-committed-are-we-to-jesus/
 

Salluz

Aspiring Man of God
I don't see a biblical case for doubtful self-examination based on behavior for whether one is a believer or not. The test is "do you believe Jesus is the Christ and the Son of God." If you do, you have life in His name. (See John 20:31)


, the Lord challenges all of us to, “Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you? — unless indeed you are disqualified.” (2 Corinthians 13:5)

This verse is taken out of context. The Corinthian believers were accusing Paul of not actually being an Apostle (IE being disqualified). Paul told them to examine themselves to see whether they were in the faith. Paul preached the gospel to them in the first place, so unless they were disqualified, he was not disqualified. Their salvation was the proof of his apostleship. The Corinthians the epistle was addressed to were affirmed to be saints in both letters. Why would Paul suddenly make them doubt it at the end?

Should we shame believers into doubting their salvation to get them to work to prove they are really saved? Isn't the example Paul gave to always point out the surpassing worth of the grace of God and use gratitude as a motivation? We are told to live up to who we are positionally over and over again.

If anyone wants to examine their own salvation, they should just make sure they are trusting in Christ and His finished work alone to be saved. That's how you test yourself if you want to. The people who Jesus will tell to depart from Him acknowledge him as Lord but never mention Him as a savior. They list their own works as their merit, but Jesus will say they are workers of lawlessness instead. We know our own works are as filthy rags before God as a righteous judge who knows our hearts. Hebrews says the basics of the faith includes repenting of these dead works and believing.

Some of the believers talked about in John didn't show their faith immediately out of fear:
"Nevertheless, many even of the authorities believed in him, but for fear of the Pharisees they did not confess it, so that they would not be put out of the synagogue;" (John 12:42). But they are still believers.
 

daygo

Well-Known Member
I don't see a biblical case for doubtful self-examination based on behavior for whether one is a believer or not. The test is "do you believe Jesus is the Christ and the Son of God." If you do, you have life in His name. (See John 20:31)




This verse is taken out of context. The Corinthian believers were accusing Paul of not actually being an Apostle (IE being disqualified). Paul told them to examine themselves to see whether they were in the faith. Paul preached the gospel to them in the first place, so unless they were disqualified, he was not disqualified. Their salvation was the proof of his apostleship. The Corinthians the epistle was addressed to were affirmed to be saints in both letters. Why would Paul suddenly make them doubt it at the end?

Should we shame believers into doubting their salvation to get them to work to prove they are really saved? Isn't the example Paul gave to always point out the surpassing worth of the grace of God and use gratitude as a motivation? We are told to live up to who we are positionally over and over again.

If anyone wants to examine their own salvation, they should just make sure they are trusting in Christ and His finished work alone to be saved. That's how you test yourself if you want to. The people who Jesus will tell to depart from Him acknowledge him as Lord but never mention Him as a savior. They list their own works as their merit, but Jesus will say they are workers of lawlessness instead. We know our own works are as filthy rags before God as a righteous judge who knows our hearts. Hebrews says the basics of the faith includes repenting of these dead works and believing.

Some of the believers talked about in John didn't show their faith immediately out of fear:
"Nevertheless, many even of the authorities believed in him, but for fear of the Pharisees they did not confess it, so that they would not be put out of the synagogue;" (John 12:42). But they are still believers.
Thanks Salluz.
 

PortWen

Member
I don't see a biblical case for doubtful self-examination based on behavior for whether one is a believer or not. The test is "do you believe Jesus is the Christ and the Son of God." If you do, you have life in His name. (See John 20:31)




This verse is taken out of context. The Corinthian believers were accusing Paul of not actually being an Apostle (IE being disqualified). Paul told them to examine themselves to see whether they were in the faith. Paul preached the gospel to them in the first place, so unless they were disqualified, he was not disqualified. Their salvation was the proof of his apostleship. The Corinthians the epistle was addressed to were affirmed to be saints in both letters. Why would Paul suddenly make them doubt it at the end?

Should we shame believers into doubting their salvation to get them to work to prove they are really saved? Isn't the example Paul gave to always point out the surpassing worth of the grace of God and use gratitude as a motivation? We are told to live up to who we are positionally over and over again.

If anyone wants to examine their own salvation, they should just make sure they are trusting in Christ and His finished work alone to be saved. That's how you test yourself if you want to. The people who Jesus will tell to depart from Him acknowledge him as Lord but never mention Him as a savior. They list their own works as their merit, but Jesus will say they are workers of lawlessness instead. We know our own works are as filthy rags before God as a righteous judge who knows our hearts. Hebrews says the basics of the faith includes repenting of these dead works and believing.

Some of the believers talked about in John didn't show their faith immediately out of fear:
"Nevertheless, many even of the authorities believed in him, but for fear of the Pharisees they did not confess it, so that they would not be put out of the synagogue;" (John 12:42). But they are still believers.
I agree with you.….there is a good exegesis of that verse here: https://versebyversecommentary.com/2021/04/19/2-corinthians-135f/
 

Jojo4124

Well-Known Member
When we witness to people, we need to explain what true repentance means, and explain the cost of following Jesus. He said that MANY will say "Lord, Lord" yet end up in hell.

I know many who call themselves Christ followers but they hate other ppl. The Bible says if you hate ppl, you dont have the love of God in you, you do not know God. If we dont forgive, God wont forgive us...

Salvation comes with the cost of dying to our sin nature, not passively ignoring what the Bible teaches about the fruit that a true follower of Jesus consistently ought to bear due to abiding in the Vine.

New converts need to be taught that true conversion will be evident of a heart change by abiding in the Vine. If we abide in Jesus, our lives will naturally show it little by little. It's all about Jesus and what He wants to do with our talents, posessions, etc. They all belong to Him, are from Him, and in a believer's life should glorify Him. It is good to ask God how to give Him our 100%.

We cant serve 2 masters. The world would hate us if we live for Jesus. If we love the world/society... the Bible says that the love of God is not in us, and we are false disciples.

Many people believe a false salvation. They arent taught about the costs of obeying Jesus, which shows whether we love Him or not.

I know people who repeated a sinners prayer but hate other people or say that they dont believe in the whole Bible. Cherry picking the Word wont bring true repentance or salvation.

Like a post made by welkin, if the whole gospel, the accurate seed, isnt sown, then there will be false salvations. God doesnt want us to speak a salvation prayer with our lips and keep our hearts far from Him. There are many false salvations like this and some new converts arent told to study the Word.

Grace, yes. Also with teaching the Whole Word of God, not just the parts that tickle our ears.

My RCC family can quote scriptures, some say they love Jesus. Is that enough? Many will say Lord, Lord but God says to them I never knew you. Seems like God's salvation includes knowing Him n vice versa...He wants more than a prayer to get us out of hell...He wants 100%...like Paul said to Christians to follow his example...to give Jesus 100% to the point where it is Jesus, not us, living. Have we been crucified with Christ, or are there things or people we love more than God? It's a check we do daily with Father God, asking Him to create in us a clean heart n to help us obey Him more.

These verses dont cause true Jesus disciples to fear. But they compel us to give the full gospel. Life will have trials, etc. But the good news includes showing people that in abiding in Christ in a living relationship with Him, that He helps us, shelters us, gives us authority over evil, etc.

God likened the Israelites to being His wife. Just as with human marriage, we can still say that we are a wife or husband...but the quality of closeness requires talking to eachother, etc. If we dont spend time humbly opening our hearts and lives before God in prayer n in The Word, our relationship with Him, like a neglected marriage, grows stale. IF we seek Him... Jer 33:3

It's been said that an effective gospel is how we live our lives. If we dont spend time with God, what really do we have to offer the unsaved?

We dont like to read passages that tell us that many who think they are saved will go to hell. God says MANY. Why is this? Maybe one part is that the Church doesnt preach the whole Word of God. Maybe salvation is more than just repeating a prayer. Is there true repentance n hate for sin taught?

God doesnt shame the Church, but I do think the Church can do better to help ensure that people who accept Jesus as Lord REALLY know what it means.
 

Salluz

Aspiring Man of God
Salvation comes with the cost of dying to our sin nature, not passively ignoring what the Bible teaches about the fruit that a true follower of Jesus consistently ought to bear due to abiding in the Vine.

The Spirit and the Bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who desires take the water of life without price. Rev. 22:17

Sanctification comes at the cost of us dying to our sin nature. Justification is completely and fully a free gift that was purchased by Jesus on the cross and appropriated by faith in Him. It is not of works, so that no one can boast. How can an unbeliever die to sin before being saved if you need to be born again to be able to do it in the first place?

Are we treating salvation as a sign-on bonus for agreeing to work for God the rest of our lives? Salvation is a gift.
 

Jojo4124

Well-Known Member
The Spirit and the Bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who desires take the water of life without price. Rev. 22:17

Sanctification comes at the cost of us dying to our sin nature. Justification is completely and fully a free gift that was purchased by Jesus on the cross and appropriated by faith in Him. It is not of works, so that no one can boast. How can an unbeliever die to sin before being saved if you need to be born again to be able to do it in the first place?

Are we treating salvation as a sign-on bonus for agreeing to work for God the rest of our lives? Salvation is a gift.
Just as saying a salvation prayer n repentance isnt considered a work, same with obedience to Jesus. Its not a work, but a lifestyle of showing that Jesus is Lord. He says "well done, my good n faithful servant"... obeying is better than sacrifice. Jesus says if you love me, show it by obeying me, am I your Lord?
 

Salluz

Aspiring Man of God
Just as saying a salvation prayer n repentance isnt considered a work, same with obedience to Jesus. Its not a work, but a lifestyle of showing that Jesus is Lord. He says "well done, my good n faithful servant"... obeying is better than sacrifice. Jesus says if you love me, show it by obeying me, am I your Lord?

I'd argue that praying for salvation and repenting (some definitions of the English word, which is not 1:1 with the original) are, in fact, works. Obeying Jesus most definitely is a work, otherwise what works would be judged at the bema? If obeying Jesus is not works, then works literally do not exist.

If you tell me that, say, your favorite sandwich is ham and Swiss on rye. I would believe you, or trust that it is true. I would not be agreeing to serve you for the rest of my life, I would not be making you my master, and I would not be asking you to save me. We all know what belief is when it comes down to it, don't we? There is nothing special about the type of belief we have in Jesus to be saved. We just need to trust Him and Him alone to save us based on His sinless life, substitutionary death, and resurrection.

Be very very careful.

Romans 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

Remember that it is by grace we have been saved and not of works. If obedience is a condition for salvation, we have reason to boast. The only way God receives ALL of the glory is if He provides EVERYTHING for FREE.

When we watch an infomercial and the advertiser says, "you can have yours now, absolutely free. Just pay shipping and handling!" We all roll our eyes because we know that it isn't actually free. The cost of shipping and handling is always just the price of the object itself. We cannot do the same to salvation by rebranding free to mean costly, or else it is no longer grace. Grace + Works = Works.

Otherwise, no one could possibly ever be assured of salvation. How could your obedience ever meet God's perfect standards? If you think your obedience is sufficient to save you, you are either prideful or are not aware of the all-consuming holiness of God. Only God could meet God's standard of perfect holiness, which is why we needed Jesus to save us in the first place. God did not just lower the standards when Jesus died for us. He met His own standard and offers to substitute His righteousness for our own as a gift.

Practically, how can you tell whether a person is obedient enough to be saved? There is most assuredly no Biblical standard for it. How can you ever tell when you are obedient enough to be saved? I don't know about you, but the more I grow in sanctification, the more painfully aware I am of my own sin and how disobedient I am in attitude and action to God. You can see it reflected in Paul's letters as well, as he goes from calling himself "least of the Apostles" to "chief of all sinners."

Moving on to obedience to Christ is the call to discipleship, one that someone receives after trusting in Christ alone for salvation. It is God's expectation that every believer should move on to obedience, but not everyone will. Some of the Corinthian believers were disciplined to the point of death for their disobedience in the way they took communion, getting drunk on the communion wine. But God only disciplines His children whom He loves.

Salvation is completely and utterly free, just by faith in Jesus. Did Jesus say, "Truly, truly, I tell you, he who obeys me and prays a certain thing and repents of specific sins has eternal life"? Or did he say "he who believes has everlasting life"? You can check John 6:47 for the answer.

Everyone who desires is told to recieve salvation for free. But the one who desires to become a disciple of Jesus after being saved is told to count the cost first, and to be willing to give up his life. There needs to be a distinction for the two statements to be true. How could grace be both free and expensive?
 

Andy C

Well-Known Member
When we witness to people, we need to explain what true repentance means, and explain the cost of following Jesus. He said that MANY will say "Lord, Lord" yet end up in hell.

I know many who call themselves Christ followers but they hate other ppl. The Bible says if you hate ppl, you dont have the love of God in you, you do not know God. If we dont forgive, God wont forgive us...

Salvation comes with the cost of dying to our sin nature, not passively ignoring what the Bible teaches about the fruit that a true follower of Jesus consistently ought to bear due to abiding in the Vine.

New converts need to be taught that true conversion will be evident of a heart change by abiding in the Vine. If we abide in Jesus, our lives will naturally show it little by little. It's all about Jesus and what He wants to do with our talents, posessions, etc. They all belong to Him, are from Him, and in a believer's life should glorify Him. It is good to ask God how to give Him our 100%.

We cant serve 2 masters. The world would hate us if we live for Jesus. If we love the world/society... the Bible says that the love of God is not in us, and we are false disciples.

Many people believe a false salvation. They arent taught about the costs of obeying Jesus, which shows whether we love Him or not.

I know people who repeated a sinners prayer but hate other people or say that they dont believe in the whole Bible. Cherry picking the Word wont bring true repentance or salvation.

Like a post made by welkin, if the whole gospel, the accurate seed, isnt sown, then there will be false salvations. God doesnt want us to speak a salvation prayer with our lips and keep our hearts far from Him. There are many false salvations like this and some new converts arent told to study the Word.

Grace, yes. Also with teaching the Whole Word of God, not just the parts that tickle our ears.

My RCC family can quote scriptures, some say they love Jesus. Is that enough? Many will say Lord, Lord but God says to them I never knew you. Seems like God's salvation includes knowing Him n vice versa...He wants more than a prayer to get us out of hell...He wants 100%...like Paul said to Christians to follow his example...to give Jesus 100% to the point where it is Jesus, not us, living. Have we been crucified with Christ, or are there things or people we love more than God? It's a check we do daily with Father God, asking Him to create in us a clean heart n to help us obey Him more.

These verses dont cause true Jesus disciples to fear. But they compel us to give the full gospel. Life will have trials, etc. But the good news includes showing people that in abiding in Christ in a living relationship with Him, that He helps us, shelters us, gives us authority over evil, etc.

God likened the Israelites to being His wife. Just as with human marriage, we can still say that we are a wife or husband...but the quality of closeness requires talking to eachother, etc. If we dont spend time humbly opening our hearts and lives before God in prayer n in The Word, our relationship with Him, like a neglected marriage, grows stale. IF we seek Him... Jer 33:3

It's been said that an effective gospel is how we live our lives. If we dont spend time with God, what really do we have to offer the unsaved?

We dont like to read passages that tell us that many who think they are saved will go to hell. God says MANY. Why is this? Maybe one part is that the Church doesnt preach the whole Word of God. Maybe salvation is more than just repeating a prayer. Is there true repentance n hate for sin taught?

God doesnt shame the Church, but I do think the Church can do better to help ensure that people who accept Jesus as Lord REALLY know what it means.
Your post reminds me of what I read John McArthur preaches.

Do you believe in Lordship Salvation as John M teaches and preaches?
 

Andy C

Well-Known Member
I'd argue that praying for salvation and repenting (some definitions of the English word, which is not 1:1 with the original) are, in fact, works. Obeying Jesus most definitely is a work, otherwise what works would be judged at the bema? If obeying Jesus is not works, then works literally do not exist.

If you tell me that, say, your favorite sandwich is ham and Swiss on rye. I would believe you, or trust that it is true. I would not be agreeing to serve you for the rest of my life, I would not be making you my master, and I would not be asking you to save me. We all know what belief is when it comes down to it, don't we? There is nothing special about the type of belief we have in Jesus to be saved. We just need to trust Him and Him alone to save us based on His sinless life, substitutionary death, and resurrection.

Be very very careful.

Romans 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

Remember that it is by grace we have been saved and not of works. If obedience is a condition for salvation, we have reason to boast. The only way God receives ALL of the glory is if He provides EVERYTHING for FREE.

When we watch an infomercial and the advertiser says, "you can have yours now, absolutely free. Just pay shipping and handling!" We all roll our eyes because we know that it isn't actually free. The cost of shipping and handling is always just the price of the object itself. We cannot do the same to salvation by rebranding free to mean costly, or else it is no longer grace. Grace + Works = Works.

Otherwise, no one could possibly ever be assured of salvation. How could your obedience ever meet God's perfect standards? If you think your obedience is sufficient to save you, you are either prideful or are not aware of the all-consuming holiness of God. Only God could meet God's standard of perfect holiness, which is why we needed Jesus to save us in the first place. God did not just lower the standards when Jesus died for us. He met His own standard and offers to substitute His righteousness for our own as a gift.

Practically, how can you tell whether a person is obedient enough to be saved? There is most assuredly no Biblical standard for it. How can you ever tell when you are obedient enough to be saved? I don't know about you, but the more I grow in sanctification, the more painfully aware I am of my own sin and how disobedient I am in attitude and action to God. You can see it reflected in Paul's letters as well, as he goes from calling himself "least of the Apostles" to "chief of all sinners."

Moving on to obedience to Christ is the call to discipleship, one that someone receives after trusting in Christ alone for salvation. It is God's expectation that every believer should move on to obedience, but not everyone will. Some of the Corinthian believers were disciplined to the point of death for their disobedience in the way they took communion, getting drunk on the communion wine. But God only disciplines His children whom He loves.

Salvation is completely and utterly free, just by faith in Jesus. Did Jesus say, "Truly, truly, I tell you, he who obeys me and prays a certain thing and repents of specific sins has eternal life"? Or did he say "he who believes has everlasting life"? You can check John 6:47 for the answer.

Everyone who desires is told to recieve salvation for free. But the one who desires to become a disciple of Jesus after being saved is told to count the cost first, and to be willing to give up his life. There needs to be a distinction for the two statements to be true. How could grace be both free and expensive?
I believe the below follows and reinforces your train of thought.

Galatians 3
1. You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified.
2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?
3 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh?
4 Have you experienced so much in vain—if it really was in vain?
5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard?
6 So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”
 

Jojo4124

Well-Known Member
I'd argue that praying for salvation and repenting (some definitions of the English word, which is not 1:1 with the original) are, in fact, works. Obeying Jesus most definitely is a work, otherwise what works would be judged at the bema? If obeying Jesus is not works, then works literally do not exist.

If you tell me that, say, your favorite sandwich is ham and Swiss on rye. I would believe you, or trust that it is true. I would not be agreeing to serve you for the rest of my life, I would not be making you my master, and I would not be asking you to save me. We all know what belief is when it comes down to it, don't we? There is nothing special about the type of belief we have in Jesus to be saved. We just need to trust Him and Him alone to save us based on His sinless life, substitutionary death, and resurrection.

Be very very careful.

Romans 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

Remember that it is by grace we have been saved and not of works. If obedience is a condition for salvation, we have reason to boast. The only way God receives ALL of the glory is if He provides EVERYTHING for FREE.

When we watch an infomercial and the advertiser says, "you can have yours now, absolutely free. Just pay shipping and handling!" We all roll our eyes because we know that it isn't actually free. The cost of shipping and handling is always just the price of the object itself. We cannot do the same to salvation by rebranding free to mean costly, or else it is no longer grace. Grace + Works = Works.

Otherwise, no one could possibly ever be assured of salvation. How could your obedience ever meet God's perfect standards? If you think your obedience is sufficient to save you, you are either prideful or are not aware of the all-consuming holiness of God. Only God could meet God's standard of perfect holiness, which is why we needed Jesus to save us in the first place. God did not just lower the standards when Jesus died for us. He met His own standard and offers to substitute His righteousness for our own as a gift.

Practically, how can you tell whether a person is obedient enough to be saved? There is most assuredly no Biblical standard for it. How can you ever tell when you are obedient enough to be saved? I don't know about you, but the more I grow in sanctification, the more painfully aware I am of my own sin and how disobedient I am in attitude and action to God. You can see it reflected in Paul's letters as well, as he goes from calling himself "least of the Apostles" to "chief of all sinners."

Moving on to obedience to Christ is the call to discipleship, one that someone receives after trusting in Christ alone for salvation. It is God's expectation that every believer should move on to obedience, but not everyone will. Some of the Corinthian believers were disciplined to the point of death for their disobedience in the way they took communion, getting drunk on the communion wine. But God only disciplines His children whom He loves.

Salvation is completely and utterly free, just by faith in Jesus. Did Jesus say, "Truly, truly, I tell you, he who obeys me and prays a certain thing and repents of specific sins has eternal life"? Or did he say "he who believes has everlasting life"? You can check John 6:47 for the answer.

Everyone who desires is told to recieve salvation for free. But the one who desires to become a disciple of Jesus after being saved is told to count the cost first, and to be willing to give up his life. There needs to be a distinction for the two statements to be true. How could grace be both free and expensive?
Excellent post, thank you!
 

Jojo4124

Well-Known Member
I believe the below follows and reinforces your train of thought.

Galatians 3
1. You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified.
2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?
3 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh?
4 Have you experienced so much in vain—if it really was in vain?
5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard?
6 So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”
Thank you...I dont know who that preacher is...is he a false teacher? I dont want to be. I just meant that works dont save us, yet there seems to be confusion, maybe in me about which I will pray. Some Christians teach that a Christian doesnt have to do anything once saved. But abiding in the Vine and obeying Jesus are things that Jesus says a follower of Him must do. Some would say those are works, but I see those as evidence of being a true follower of Jesus.

Please keep sharing about these things! I came out of a work to get to Purgatory religion. I get confused when Christians say that there is no work that Christians must do. Only Jesus paid for salvation, and not even prophesying or casting out demons in His Name are hallmarks of salvation...the goats at judgement. I believe a sincere heart that grieves over sin...and with the Holy Spirit helping us to stop sinning, and accepting Jesus' work are what saves us.

I get confused when Christians, not on this forum necessarily, say things like "we arent supposed to do works for salvation including turning from sin"... I am not sure I understand the seeming denial that in a relationship with God, we do have to show our comittment for Him. I get confused because I think that if I dont abide in the Vine, I wont bear fruit that glorifies God. I have heard Christians say that because nothing can seperate them from God, that they dont have to do anything. They might say, well I dont have to read the Bible or pray, I can live in continuous sin, etc because there is nothing that can remove my salvation.

But reading the Bible and obeying Jesus arent works that earn salvation after you are saved, but to grow in Christ. If Jesus is my Lord, then I am His servant...to do His bidding. Life isnt about me, but Christ in me.

Please share articles or anything that you know of that might clarify this for me...I am not even sure what I am asking for. A sacrificial life lived for Jesus isnt to earn salvation, but is proof that I am a Christ follower...right?

Thank you for your time! I'll take correction! I need more instruction on why Christians have issues with obedience...it isnt a salvation work, but shows if one is saved?
 

Andy C

Well-Known Member
Thank you...I dont know who that preacher is...is he a false teacher? I dont want to be. I just meant that works dont save us, yet there seems to be confusion, maybe in me about which I will pray. Some Christians teach that a Christian doesnt have to do anything once saved. But abiding in the Vine and obeying Jesus are things that Jesus says a follower of Him must do. Some would say those are works, but I see those as evidence of being a true follower of Jesus.
Perhaps the below from Jack Kelley will help.

Question: My question is about John 15:1-6. In v.2 there are some who are connected to Jesus but if no fruit is a result they are taken away. Who is taken away because I believe OSAS? I understand abiding should be our response to the gift of life given to us, but what is meant in v6. If anyone does not abide in me he is cast out as a branch and is withered, and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. Who are the ones cast out and burned since in v.2 states they are apparently in Jesus?

Answer: Because of other statements Jesus made about salvation (John 3:16, John 6:28-29) and security (John 6:38-40 John 10:27-30) we can tell John 15:1-6 is not about either. In John 15:3 Jesus said, “You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you.” That means they were already saved. Then He went on to speak about bearing fruit. It’s important to understand that salvation is not a fruit bearing event. It’s what you do after you’re saved that determines whether you’re fruitful.

Jesus explained that believers can only bear fruit if they remain in Him, that apart from Him we can do nothing (John 15:5). That means the things we do have to be at His request and in His strength to have value to Him. Things we do on our own have no value. They’re like a withered branch that is burned in the fire. So this passage is not about whether we can lose our salvation. It’s about whether the things we do as believers have value to Him or not. Otherwise, Jesus would have been contradicting His earlier statements.

Paul explained this in 1 Cor. 3:10-15 saying some of our work is like gold, silver, and precious gems. This is the work we do in the Lord’s strength and has much value. Other work is like wood, hay, and straw. This is the work we do in our own strength and has no value. In 1 Cor. 3:15 Paul said even if all our work is burned up, we’ll still be saved.

So, as you can see there’s no connection between OSAS and fruitfulness. That’s because it’s our belief that saves us, not our behavior. Unfruitful believers may not receive crowns or other heavenly rewards, but they cannot lose their salvation.
https://gracethrufaith.com/ask-a-bible-teacher/osas-and-john-151-6/
 

Andy C

Well-Known Member
I dont know what Lordship salvation is...I will look it up. Is it a false teaching? Thank you so much for this!
A brief definition from Jack - and yes, it is a false teaching

Question: Can you please explain lordship salvation and whether you feel it is a valid doctrine? If I understand it correctly and it is valid, it pretty much eliminates any “deathbed conversions.”

Answer: As I understand it, lordship salvation holds that just asking Jesus to be your Savior isn’t enough to save you. You also have to agree to make Him Lord of your life.

This is demonstrated by whether your actions in this world give evidence of your obedience to Biblical instructions on Christian living. Some go so far as to say that if there are no observable changes, then there has been no salvation.

This view contradicts the clear Biblical teachings that the sole requirement for salvation is the belief that Jesus died for our sins and rose again.
I don’t think anyone would disagree that having the Holy Spirit come to dwell in our heart will cause changes in our life. But what changes occur, and when, are between each believer and the Holy Spirit and don’t concern anyone else.

Jesus paid the ultimate price, His life, to make salvation free for the asking (Matt. 7:7-8). But ever since He did, mankind has been coming up with additional conditions, all to the effect of trying to make it more expensive.
Paul said, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved” (Romans 10:13).

https://gracethrufaith.com/ask-a-bible-teacher/lordship-salvation/
 

Belle of Grace

Longing for Home
Please share articles or anything that you know of that might clarify this for me...I am not even sure what I am asking for. A sacrificial life lived for Jesus isnt to earn salvation, but is proof that I am a Christ follower...right?

Thank you for your time! I'll take correction! I need more instruction on why Christians have issues with obedience...it isnt a salvation work, but shows if one is saved?
Please go to sermonaudio.com and in their search bar, type in Andy Woods. Then when you get to his page, search for John. Several years ago, he did a series on the gospel of John, and it turned me around after being confused by an online Calvinist pastor. I never had any assurance of my salvation and did not have a good understanding of God's grace. Now I do. So thankful that I began listening to this man's sermons. What a relief!!
 
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