Matt, I chose not to respond to fallon's post because it was not made in the Christian spirit - instead, it was made to inflame and cause anger among the brethren. I am not sure that your post is crystal clear insofar as the use of guns for self-defense purposes. Is it your belief that in this dispensation, we are not allowed to defend ourselves? If it is, I will respectively disagree with such interpretation of Luke's verses pointed out by Searchin. Those verses are very revealing, when taken in context. I know many pastors who agree. I checked 3 commentaries on it, and by the established rules of LITERAL Bible interpretation (not spiritualizing the word "sword"), one can see what Jesus was referring to. I will not get into a lengthy argument over this, it would serve no useful purpose. It's one of those issues where I interpret scripture one way, someone else, another. Could I change their mind? NO. Would they change mine? NO. I pray that we interpret scripture not by what we want it to be, but what we are led by the Holy Spirit to believe it to be. My interpretation is scripture supports the use of guns to defend myself, my family, and others. I am not trying to drive away others who are seeing if we are different. I believe this because I believe it is His word - I do not believe that you meant to imply that if anyone disagrees with your interpretation, that they are wrong in their interpretation. If that is so, please let me know - it will be time for me to withdraw. YBIC - Troy
Gun Talk
- Thread starter TexasThunder
- Start date
mattfivefour
Well-Known Member
There are no easy answers to this topic, Troy. This is a subject that requires much maturity in God and a mind and spirit much exercised by godly discernment to fully understand. Because of an unfamiliarity with the Bible or spiritual immaturity many people get very confused over this a profess doctrines that are either incorrect or only partially correct.
There is no doubt that Jesus gives us a new way … not to fight against those who are wicked and hateful and hurtful, but to treat them in love. Jesus knew that His followers would be persecuted and even executed but He told them not to resist, for their godly responses would be a witness to others. In His book “Refuting Jehovah's Witnesses”, Randall Watters wrote:: “God would reward them (those who are persecuted) for their tolerance of injustice in matters of their faith. It is vital that Christians have a peace-loving attitude, not desiring conflict or struggle. A disposition to glory in mortal combat is clearly of the devil (James 4:1-2). Yet in the face of sudden or imminent evil, wisdom is required to know the best course to take, as situations can be complicated.”
The Holy Spirit speaking through Paul after teaching us about not paying back evil for evil and the taking of vengeance, says, "If possible, so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men." —Romans 12:18 Do all you can to be at peace, do not be quick to take offense, do not seek revenge … after all, “we are not fighting against flesh and blood but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.” —Ephesians 6:12 You may be confronted by evil but the source of your problem is not the person in front of you, but the spirit behind him.
Therefore we are first and foremost to seek peace. Quoting from Psalm 34, Peter says, “The one who will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips from speaking deceit: let him reject evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and pursue it.” —1 Peter 3:10-11 BUT remember, the entire responsibility is not yours. “So far as it depends on you!” There are times when the other person gives us no choice, where we have to act to prevent a worse evil. For example we clearly are NOT to stand by and offer no response to the wicked as they harm others ... or, under some circumstances, even ourselves. If we allow evil people to use us for evil purposes then we are partakers in their evil. If we allow evil people to harm the innocent and helpless then we have shut up our compassion for the weak and hurting. If we know that someone is planning evil, we are not to stand back and let him. If a rapist were your next door neighbor you clearly would not let your daughter near him nor would you refuse to act if he grabbed her.
When the Nazis set out to enslave great parts of the world and eradicate Jews, right-thinking men and women did not stand by but acted with armed force to stop them. This clearly—from a careful consideration of scripture—was the correct thing to do. Owning a gun is not evil. Using the gun against someone is not necessarily evil, either. Each case must be dealt with out of a Christian spirit that comes from a submitted life. You must take the action you believe right in any given circumstance. But make no mistake. You WILL answer to God for your actions. So do not be hasty to act unless the situation demands haste. And always act in accordance with the leading of the Holy Spirit within you.
As I said in the beginning, there are no easy answers. It may appear to immature Christians that the NT is clearly against ALL use of violence. But a careful Spirit-led and prayerful study of God’s Word will eventually bring you to the truth, some of which I have attempted to sketch above.
Hope this helps.
The reason I wrote what I did in my earlier post was out of concern fro the tone of some posts in this thread and others. They have become quite militant and seem to presuppose that violence is necessary and acceptable to answer all situations where our "rights" or "possessions" are threatened. Please re-read my last few sentences in that post:
"In no way are we to stand by and watch the helpless victimized. But that said, our attitude and therefore all that we do must spring from a position of love, gentleness, goodness, and mercy ... not just to those who love us but to those who hate us and despitefully use us.
THAT is the clear teaching of the gospel. And the violent talk that pervades some posts on this website must most certainly grieve the Spirit of God ... and drive away those who are looking to see if Christians are REALLY different.
Talk of killing our enemies and fighting to protect what is "ours" (nothing is yours it is all God's and He is quite capable of preserving that which He wishes) simply demonstrates that we are hypocrites who follow our own ideas, not the teaching of Jesus through Whom we claim to have found salvation."
I trust tht again puts perspective on my comments. I am not suggesting that we bow to evil, but we are not necessarily to get in its face, either. We need to be mature in our thinking and in our walk and then we will be likely to do the right thing—whatever that may be—in any specific situation.
God bless.
mattfivefour
Well-Known Member
Searchin, we ALL feel as you do seeing those same things. And there is no need to be sorry for the pain in your spirit. We just need to be careful that in expressing our agony of heart we do not damage our witness. We have to constantly throw ourselves on God asking for His help to bear up.
And not ALL violence is necessarily against the Word of God. Read my response to open door above.
As to the prayer with which you ended your post-- I agree and pray the same things. Yes Lord, Amen!
May God bless you as well.
Matt
Adopted Son
Well-Known Member
Nicely said, MattFiveFour, well put.
Matt, I agree that gross error is made when people take scripture from the OT & try to apply it to the Church. In fact, post-tribbers make a fatal mistake here. How does this apply? Remember how our great pastors and pre-trib teachers tell us how to interpret scripture? We must consider the context, to whom it was written, when it was written, and why it was written. Same applies to the NT. Matthew is a prime example. We pre-tribbers do that often, out of necessity, in getting the true meaning of His Olivet Discourse, i.e., what applies to the Rapture, and what applies to His Second Coming. Elsewhere in Matthew, we note how Jesus switched his commands to the disciples to go ONLY to the sheep of the tribes of Israel - to the gentiles. During His ministry, but after the Jews had rejected Him, he switched and said (paraphrase) whoever does the will of my Father, that's who family is. Gentiles brought in. With that explanation, go back to Luke's verses and consider carefully. The expositors agree that Jesus told the disciples they were about to enter a NEW time - without Him for their protection and provisions (shoes, purses). NOW, He said to take precautions for their provisions, and protection, (i.e., a sword. )If one tries to "spiritualize" that word sword here, you have to do the same with shoes & purses. As one writer so ably pointed out, if you spiritualize scriputre, its meaning is left entirely to the mind of the interpreter. God help us not to go there. In interpreting scripture, we are to take a literal (consistent literal) approach, applying a true, common sense application except where, of course, there is a figure of speech or symbollism is used in scripture itself (where there is always a literal meaning behind it). The word sword has a common sense application - one of defense. (In this entire post, I am referring to SELF DEFENSE ONLY.) To look further, in John l0, Jesus describes Himself as the true shepherd who gave His life for the sheep. That applies to what He did for us, of course. Howver, using the law of double reference, we know that a shepherds owner would fight (with a sword) the lion or wolf who attacked his sheep, and would sacrifice his life if necessary for them. Someone hired to tend the sheep wouldn't do that. As the head of the family, we are to protect our families. The argument fails that it applies to govrnments only. Really? Politicians authorizing us to use force make it OK? Just think about that a little bit. I'm posting this only to submit that in my interpretation, there is a Biblical basis for self-dense. Anyone else is, of course, entitled to their interpretation. However, this argument from scripture will not be shut out. I shutter at standing before my Lord and explaining why I wouldn't protect my wife, kids and grand-kids when He gave me the means to do so. Human life is NOT to be "taken" lightly.
mattfivefour
Well-Known Member
I agree completely.
thallon
Well-Known Member
no it was not meant to inflame,
sorry.
and i did read the other posts and the stats,
but i would feel safer living in a society without guns than one
that allowed everyone to have them.
My intention was only that Christians should not take up
guns but chose to be defenseless,
we know what happened at waco texas when a cult defended itself,
not that we are a cult,
but a end of world survivalist mentality can take over your faith,
instead of living in the now
you become fixated on survival,
we cannot survive,
death is inevitable,
and judgement for our life on earth even moreso.
the only protection is Christ.
once again i;m sorry to cause any offense,
but i cannot agree on something that is so contrary
to the spirit of christianity.
i should point out that i do not mean my arguement to be completely
non defensive,
rather non gun ownership as a christian.
there are arguements one could use,
example, i'm on hand while someone is running around shooting people,
if i have a gun i can shoot them.
but such arguements need you to be in the right place at the right time
AND have the presence of mind to shoot the other person.
sandman31774
Member
What's interesting to me is the number of christians that do not agree with 2nd amendment and right to have arms for self defense. Yet, many of these same christians will say "yes, we need to take out Iran before they harm us or Israel". That line of thought seems contradictory to me.
I'm pro 2nd amendment for the record.
I'm pro 2nd amendment for the record.
searchin
Well-Known Member
reach
Adopted Son
Well-Known Member
I read the word "Waco". I knew history revisionist would twist the truth and make people believe things in error. The Branch Davidians broke no laws, were on their own property, and were not arrested when they went to town in small groups. Janet Reno wanted to make an example out of them and sent way too much fire power to their place.
The Davidians did NOT set up a defense perimeter and attempt to defend the property. Yes, one or two brave people did shoot back after the compound was fired upon. But most, gathered in interior rooms and tried to enact their escape plan. They were murdered by our government.
The Davidians did NOT set up a defense perimeter and attempt to defend the property. Yes, one or two brave people did shoot back after the compound was fired upon. But most, gathered in interior rooms and tried to enact their escape plan. They were murdered by our government.
JesusIsLord
Well-Known Member
Thallon,
Unfortunately, your posts come across as extremely condescending. You are wrongfully judging your brothers and sisters based on your own convictions. Also unfortunate is the fact that your government has demonized guns and has affected the country's mentality towards them, which is very evident in your posts. People always fear what they don't understand. Understand how to properly use these tools, and you will realize that they are just that: Tools.
The fact is that there is sin in the world. No matter what "tools" you take away, there will always be other tools that can't be outlawed that can be used for evil purposes. Take away guns, they'll use knives. Take away knives, they'll use sharp sticks and rocks. Your own fists and feet can be used as weapons. So what is my conclusion? That it does not matter what tool you use as a weapon......so long as there is sin in the world, people will use whatever tool they can to accomplish their intentions. So the root of the issue is that it is not the weapon being used, but the intention behind the use of the weapon
Conversely, tools used in a proper way can be beneficial. Knives that are used to kill are also used to cut food into smaller pieces so you can chew it properly. Should we ban all knives? Those same hands that can turn into fists for fighting also help you pick up the food that you eat. Should we cut those off and throw 'em away? Guns are the same. They serve many more purposes than murder: Hunting, sporting, and at times, defending when warranted.
The bigger picture here is that we have freedom in Christ. Those who are strong in their faith and convictions on "gray areas" and who live accordingly by them should also be careful to have discretion towards those who are weaker in their faith and limit themselves with rules and regulations. You, likewise, being a believer and member of the Body of Christ, should not be putting under condemnation those brothers and sisters who choose to exercise their freedoms in Christ, weakening their faith. The Lord alone is our judge....let Him rightly divide between right and wrong. And let the Holy Spirit work in believers, convicting them as He sees fit.
I also believe that we will all one day be held accountable not only for how we exercised our freedoms in Christ, but also how we dealt with others in correction, reproofing and training (2 Timothy 3:16). Therefore, I would try to be more careful in bringing judgment on others for issues that are not explicitly black and white.
God bless, Ryan
Unfortunately, your posts come across as extremely condescending. You are wrongfully judging your brothers and sisters based on your own convictions. Also unfortunate is the fact that your government has demonized guns and has affected the country's mentality towards them, which is very evident in your posts. People always fear what they don't understand. Understand how to properly use these tools, and you will realize that they are just that: Tools.
The fact is that there is sin in the world. No matter what "tools" you take away, there will always be other tools that can't be outlawed that can be used for evil purposes. Take away guns, they'll use knives. Take away knives, they'll use sharp sticks and rocks. Your own fists and feet can be used as weapons. So what is my conclusion? That it does not matter what tool you use as a weapon......so long as there is sin in the world, people will use whatever tool they can to accomplish their intentions. So the root of the issue is that it is not the weapon being used, but the intention behind the use of the weapon
Conversely, tools used in a proper way can be beneficial. Knives that are used to kill are also used to cut food into smaller pieces so you can chew it properly. Should we ban all knives? Those same hands that can turn into fists for fighting also help you pick up the food that you eat. Should we cut those off and throw 'em away? Guns are the same. They serve many more purposes than murder: Hunting, sporting, and at times, defending when warranted.
The bigger picture here is that we have freedom in Christ. Those who are strong in their faith and convictions on "gray areas" and who live accordingly by them should also be careful to have discretion towards those who are weaker in their faith and limit themselves with rules and regulations. You, likewise, being a believer and member of the Body of Christ, should not be putting under condemnation those brothers and sisters who choose to exercise their freedoms in Christ, weakening their faith. The Lord alone is our judge....let Him rightly divide between right and wrong. And let the Holy Spirit work in believers, convicting them as He sees fit.
I also believe that we will all one day be held accountable not only for how we exercised our freedoms in Christ, but also how we dealt with others in correction, reproofing and training (2 Timothy 3:16). Therefore, I would try to be more careful in bringing judgment on others for issues that are not explicitly black and white.
God bless, Ryan
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TexasThunder
Psalm 18:2
It's interesting to see where this thread I started has gone. The debate on firearms in some posts are in the very least skewed and biased toward ones own convictions which I can respect. I will say this and hope it's the end of the debate here. Cain did not use a gun to kill Able, and he is still known as the first murderer.
I for one have never pointed a gun at anyone in anger or jest. I do not keep loaded weapons in my home because I have children. I have guns and ammunition stored seperately and under multiple lock and key. I do not show off my guns in front of my children or family. I do like guns, I like the sport of shooting, I like practicing on targets. I spent eight years in the U.S. Army training for war and fortunately I never had to put that training to use, but I would have done my duty if called upon. As an American Free Citizen I will still defend my rights and my Constitution if it is forcibly restricted or taken away.
Before I am an American, a Texan, even a father or husband, first I am a Christian. However that does not mean we are weak knead, wimpy do gooders. As Christians we should stand up for our faith, for our family, for our fellow men and women. To be jailed, slapped or knocked to the ground for serving the Lord is an honor and priviledge, what better company could I be in with the likes of Daniel or others.
My guns are simply tools that I use and enjoy for sport. They can also be used for protection and if the need arises they will be. Is it a sin or wrong to stand up for yourself, to protect yourself? I dont think so. One day there will be people who refuse the mark, they will be beaten and abused by godless people. I would not blame them for protecting themselves. I think we are approaching a time when government will do its best to control every aspect of our lives. When people are pressed against the wall and have little recourse, fight or submit is the only options. It is up to each and every one of you to determine in your own heart and mind how much you are going to take. If your child is taken from you because you are a bad influence for teaching him scriptures, will you just let them go and get on with your life?
Long ago words meant a great deal, like freedom, patriotism, tyranny, or despot. Our forefathers enjoyed the blessing and freedom of growing up in a country where they had the right to be happy, prosper, fail or succeed upon their own merit and ability. That image of our country is becomming a dim memory and in danger of being snuffed out.
I hope this thread can get back on track to my original intent. To share and discuss the topic of guns, the sport, and interest of an American pasttime and heritage. Guns are only terrible tools if used in the wrong hands. As long as they are used properly and safely they are fine. If my rights of gun ownership are infringed upon, then I may take steps to protect that right depending on the danger and severety of infringment.
(stepping off the soapbox now)
I for one have never pointed a gun at anyone in anger or jest. I do not keep loaded weapons in my home because I have children. I have guns and ammunition stored seperately and under multiple lock and key. I do not show off my guns in front of my children or family. I do like guns, I like the sport of shooting, I like practicing on targets. I spent eight years in the U.S. Army training for war and fortunately I never had to put that training to use, but I would have done my duty if called upon. As an American Free Citizen I will still defend my rights and my Constitution if it is forcibly restricted or taken away.
Before I am an American, a Texan, even a father or husband, first I am a Christian. However that does not mean we are weak knead, wimpy do gooders. As Christians we should stand up for our faith, for our family, for our fellow men and women. To be jailed, slapped or knocked to the ground for serving the Lord is an honor and priviledge, what better company could I be in with the likes of Daniel or others.
My guns are simply tools that I use and enjoy for sport. They can also be used for protection and if the need arises they will be. Is it a sin or wrong to stand up for yourself, to protect yourself? I dont think so. One day there will be people who refuse the mark, they will be beaten and abused by godless people. I would not blame them for protecting themselves. I think we are approaching a time when government will do its best to control every aspect of our lives. When people are pressed against the wall and have little recourse, fight or submit is the only options. It is up to each and every one of you to determine in your own heart and mind how much you are going to take. If your child is taken from you because you are a bad influence for teaching him scriptures, will you just let them go and get on with your life?
Long ago words meant a great deal, like freedom, patriotism, tyranny, or despot. Our forefathers enjoyed the blessing and freedom of growing up in a country where they had the right to be happy, prosper, fail or succeed upon their own merit and ability. That image of our country is becomming a dim memory and in danger of being snuffed out.
I hope this thread can get back on track to my original intent. To share and discuss the topic of guns, the sport, and interest of an American pasttime and heritage. Guns are only terrible tools if used in the wrong hands. As long as they are used properly and safely they are fine. If my rights of gun ownership are infringed upon, then I may take steps to protect that right depending on the danger and severety of infringment.
(stepping off the soapbox now)
sandman31774
Member
www.thefiringline.com might be able to help.... I once owned a Desert Eagle .44 mag....i miss it....fun but expensive to shoot. have you emailed/called magnumresearch?
Thank you for the info, I went on line a while back and found that it would be easy to buy the guns but not the parts , I even went to the largest gun dealer in Newport Beach and he looked at me like I was mentally retarded and said -take it to a gun smith. I know that a gun smith can make the part at ten times the price , but it would nice to find a place that sold the parts.
Now I have a new place to look online, and this time I will also use the phone .Thanks again
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