Hello everyone. My name is Johnathan. I'm Jewish born but not raised as a religious Jew. I'm currently in the process to become an Orthodox Jew (Baal teshuva - return to embrace Judaism). The reason I joined the forum is to ask Christians there views on different topics relating to Judaism. Topics like Zionism, Israel, and so on. Since this is an introduction thread I will not ask any question here. You're welcome to ask me anything about myself and what I like to do for fun. Hope everyone is doing great. May HaShem bless all of you.
Greetings from California
- Thread starter Johnny916
- Start date
ShilohRose
Well-Known Member
Hello, Johnny913! I am glad to have you taking a look at the RaptureForums. There are a lot of good articles about your topics of interest on this site.
anath
I Love the Lord
Johnny, welcome to our family
micah719
an adopted son of The Most High God John 6:37-40
Hi Johnny! 
:
My position with regard to Jews, Zionism etc is Gen 12:3, and Num 6:24-26
Question(s) for you......have you studied HaShem?
Hint....look at Gen 1:1 for The Name, compare with Zech 12:10, and Rev 1:8, 1:11, 21:6.....also look at the meaning of Yahshua (not sure of spelling)....the parallel between Who Moses met at the burning bush vs. what The Lord Jesus Christ said to the Sanhedrin, particularly the high priest when he called on Him to state Who He is, and the reaction...
Aleph Tov/ Alpha Omega....the First and the Last...I AM....
Lots of interesing study there....seek Him with all your heart and He will reveal Himself to you, and you'll be floored!
You might find Arnold Fruchtenbaum's books highly interesting...
Anyway, very glad you are here, look forward to learning more from and about you. Num 6:24-26
:My position with regard to Jews, Zionism etc is Gen 12:3, and Num 6:24-26
Question(s) for you......have you studied HaShem?
Hint....look at Gen 1:1 for The Name, compare with Zech 12:10, and Rev 1:8, 1:11, 21:6.....also look at the meaning of Yahshua (not sure of spelling)....the parallel between Who Moses met at the burning bush vs. what The Lord Jesus Christ said to the Sanhedrin, particularly the high priest when he called on Him to state Who He is, and the reaction...
Aleph Tov/ Alpha Omega....the First and the Last...I AM....
Lots of interesing study there....seek Him with all your heart and He will reveal Himself to you, and you'll be floored!
You might find Arnold Fruchtenbaum's books highly interesting...
Anyway, very glad you are here, look forward to learning more from and about you. Num 6:24-26
:
Welcome to the board.
:We have some other fellows Jews on the board that you might like to meet like "ronen". We are a very pro-Israel and pro-Jewish website and forum. We do however differ on theological points as you know between Christianity and Judaism but we are not really interested in arguing back and forth on these differences. We don't have problems with asking of questions, but we don't allow pagans, cults, atheists, etc. to "witness" on the forum to our members. We are mainly here for fellowship and community.
God bless you and welcome again to the forums.
No problem. Glad you are here.
I agree. Welcome to RF, Johnathan. קבלת פנים לכנסייה שלנוNo problem. Glad you are here.
Both.
Worship and Bible study for me is pretty much a 24/7 thing. God is the center of my life, around which everything else revolves. Based on the teachings contained in the Tenach alone, I believe this attitude before God is correct. Then, through the teachings of the New Testament and the sacrifice of the final Lamb, this attitude becomes a personal relationship, which is what He had with the first man and woman in Eden. It is open to all who call upon His name in truth. We don't earn it; we cannot earn it. But it is His gift which is appropriated by faith, just as Abel, Enoch, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, Gideon, Moses, Samuel, David, and the prophets were accepted through faith in Him.
I highly recommend either listening to Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum's testimony Testimony of Arnold Fruchtenbaum or, if you have time, reading his book: In The Steps of Messiah.
But as to your initial statement in your introductory OP, I respectfully think you may have a misunderstanding of the teaching of the Torah, indeed the entire Tenach, when it comes to the nature of God. for that reason I am including below a brief artcile by Dr. Fruchtenbaum reprinted from his Ariel Ministries site. I hope that you will read it, if you were honest with your initial statement that "the reason I joined the forum is to ask Christians there views on different topics relating to Judaism."
JEWISHNESS AND THE TRINITY
By Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum, Founder/Director of Ariel Ministries
שְׁמַ֖ע יִשְׂרָאֵ֑ל יְהוָ֥ה אֱלֹהֵ֖ינוּ יְהוָ֥ה ׀ אֶחָֽד ׃
Shema Yisroel Adonai Elochenu Adonai Echad
Hear O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord
Rabbi Stanley Greenberg of Temple Sinai in Philadelphia wrote:
"Christians are, of course, entitled to believe in a Trinitarian conception of God.
but their effort to base this conception on the Hebrew Bible must fly in the face
of the overwhelming testimony of that Bible. Hebrew Scriptures are clear and
unequivocal on the oneness of God The Hebrew Bible affirms the one God with
unmistakable clarity. Monotheism, an uncompromising belief in one God, is the
hallmark of the Hebrew Bible, the unwavering affirmation of Judaism and
the unshakable faith of the Jew."
Whether Christians are accused of being polytheists or tritheists and whether or not it is admitted that the Christian concept of the Tri-unity is a form of monotheism, one element always appears: one cannot believe in the Trinity and be Jewish. Even if what Christians believe is monotheistic, it still does not seem to be monotheistic enough to qualify as true Jewishness. Rabbi Greenberg's article tends to reflect that thinking.
He went on to say, "... under no circumstances can a concept of a plurality of the Godhead or a trinity of the Godhead ever be based upon the Hebrew Bible." It is perhaps best to begin with the very source of Jewish theology and the only means of testing it: Hebrew Scriptures. Since so much relies on Hebrew Scripture usage, then to the Hebrew we should turn.
The Name Elohim
It is generally agreed that Elohim is a plural noun having the masculine plural ending "im." The very word Elohim used of the true God in Genesis 1:1, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth," is also used in Exodus 20:3, "You shall have no other gods (Elohim) before Me," and in Deuteronomy 13:2, "Let us go after other gods (Elohim)... ." While the use of the plural Elohim does not prove a Tri-unity, it certainly opens the door to a doctrine of plurality in the Godhead since it is the word that is used for the one true God as well as for the many false gods.
Plural Verbs Used With Elohim
Virtually all Hebrew scholars do recognize that the word Elohim, as it stands by itself, is a plural noun. Nevertheless, they wish to deny that it allows for any plurality in the Godhead whatsoever. Their line of reasoning usually goes like this: When "Elohim" is used of the true God, it is followed by a singular verb; when it is used of false gods, it is followed by the plural verb. Rabbi Greenberg states it as follows:
"But, in fact, the verb used in the opening verse of Genesis is "bara," which means "he created" - singular. One need not be too profound a student of Hebrew to understand that the opening verse of Genesis clearly speaks of a singular God."
The point made, of course, is generally true because the Bible does teach that God is only one God and, therefore, the general pattern is to have the plural noun followed by the singular verb when it speaks of the one true God. However, there are places where the word is used of the true God and yet it is followed by a plural verb:
Genesis 20:13: And it came to pass, when God (Elohim) caused me to wander (Literally: THEY caused me to wander) from my father's house ...
Genesis 35:7: ... because there God (Elohim) appeared to him ... (Literally: THEY appeared to him.)
2 Samuel 7:23: ... God (Elohim) went ... (Literally: THEY went.)
Psalm 58:1-11: Surely He is God who judges ... (Literally: THEY judge.)
The Name Eloah
If the plural form Elohim was the only form available for a reference to God, then conceivably the argument might be made that the writers of the Hebrew Scriptures had no other alternative but to use the word Elohim for both the one true God and the many false gods. However, the singular form for Elohim (Eloah) exists and is used in such passages as Deuteronomy 32:15-17 and Habakkuk 3:3. This singular form could easily have been used consistently. Yet it is only used 250 times, while the plural form is used 2,500 times. The far greater use of the plural form again turns the argument in favor of plurality in the Godhead rather than against it.
Plural Pronouns
Another case in point regarding Hebrew grammar is that often when God speaks of himself, he clearly uses the plural pronoun:
Genesis 1:26: Then God (Elohim) said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness"
He could hardly have made reference to angels since man was created in the image of God and not of angels. The Midrash Rabbah on Genesis recognizes the strength of this passage and comments as follows:
Rabbi Samuel Bar Hanman in the name of Rabbi Jonathan said, that at the time when Moses wrote the Torah, writing a portion of it daily, when he came to the verse which says, "And Elohim said, let us make man in our image after our likeness," Moses said, "Master of the universe, why do you give here with an excuse to the sectarians (who believe in the Tri-unity of God)" God answered Moses, "You write and whoever wants to err, let him err." (Midrash Rabbah on Genesis 1:26 [New York NOP Press, N.D.])
It is obvious that the Midrash Rabbah is simply trying to get around the problem and fails to answer adequately why God refers to himself in the plural.
The use of the plural pronoun can also be seen In the following:
Genesis 3:22: Then the LORD God (YHVH Elohim) said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us''
Genesis 11:7: "Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language.''
Isaiah 6:8: Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying: "Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us?"
This last passage would appear contradictory with the singular "I" and the plural "us'' except as viewed as a plurality (us) in a unity (I).
Plural Descriptions of God
Another point that also comes out of Hebrew is the fact that often nouns and adjectives used in speaking of God are plural. Some examples are as follows:
Ecclesiastes 12:1: Remember now your Creator ... (Literally: CREATORS.)
Psalm 149:2: Let Israel rejoice in their Maker. (Literally: MAKERS.)
Joshua 24:19: ... holy God ... (Literally: HOLY GODS.)
Isaiah 54:5: For your Maker is your husband. (Literally: MAKERS, HUSBANDS.)
Everything we have said so far rests firmly on the Hebrew language of the Scriptures. If we are to base our theology on the Scriptures alone, we have to say that on the one hand they affirm God's unity, while at the same time they tend towards the concept of a compound unity allowing for a plurality in the Godhead.
The Shema
A verse in Deuteronomy, known as the SHEMA, has always been Israel's great confession.
Deuteronomy 6:4: Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one!
It is this verse more than any other that is used to affirm the fact that God is one and is often used to contradict the concept of plurality in the Godhead. But is it a valid use of this verse?
On the one hand it should be noted that the very words "our God" are in the plural in the Hebrew text and literally mean "our Gods." However, the main argument lies in the word "one," which is the Hebrew word, ECHAD. A glance through the Hebrew text where the word is used elsewhere can quickly show that the word echad does not mean an absolute "one" but a compound "one."
For instance, in Genesis 1:5 the combination of evening and morning comprise one (echad) day. In Genesis 2:24 a man and a woman come together in marriage and the two "shall become one (echad) flesh." In Ezra 2:64 we are told that the whole assembly was as one (echad), though, of course, it was composed of numerous people. Ezekiel 37:17 provides a rather striking example where two sticks are combined to become one (echad). Thus, use of the word echad in Scripture shows it to be a compound and not an absolute unity.
There is a Hebrew word that does mean an absolute unity and that is YACHID, which is found in many Scripture passages, (Genesis 22:2,12; Judges 11:34; Psalm 22:21: 25:16; Proverbs 4:3; Jeremiah 6:26; Amos 8:10; Zechariah 12:10) the emphasis being on the meaning of "only." If Moses intended to teach God's absolute oneness as over against a compound unity, this would have been a far more appropriate word. In fact, Maimonides noted the strength of "yachid' and chose to use that word in his "Thirteen Articles of Faith'' in place of echad. However, Deuteronomy 6:4 (the Shema) does not use "yachid" in reference to God.
Elohim and YHVH Applied to Two Personalities
To make the case for plurality even stronger, there are situations in the Hebrew Scriptures where the term Elohim is applied to two personalities in the same verse. One example is Psalm 45:6-7:
"Your throne, O God, is forever and ever: A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. You love righteousness and hate wickedness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness more than Your companions."
It should be noted that the first Elohim is being addressed and the second Elohim is the God of the first Elohim. And so God's God has anointed him with the oil of gladness.
A second example is Hosea 1:7:
"Yet I will have mercy on the house of Judah, will save them by the LORD their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword or battle, by horses or horsemen."
The speaker is Elohim who says he will have mercy on the house of Judah and will save them by the instrumentality of YHVH, their Elohim. So Elohim number one will save Israel by means of Elohim number two.
Not only is Elohim applied to two personalities in the same verse, but so is the very name of God. One example is Genesis 19:24:
"Then he LORD rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah from the LORD out of the heavens."
Clearly we have YHVH number one raining fire and brimstone from a second YHVH who is in heaven, the first one being on earth.
A second example is Zechariah 2:8-9:
"For thus says the LORD of hosts: "He sent Me after glory, to the nations which plunder you; for he who touches you touches the apple of His eye. For surely I will shake My hand against them, and they shall become spoil for their servants. Then you will know that the LORD of hosts has sent Me."
Again, we have one YHVH sending another YHVH to perform a specific task.
The author of the Zohar sensed plurality in the Tetragrammaton (1) and wrote:
"Come and see the mystery of the word YHVH: there are three steps, each existing by itself: nevertheless they are One, and so united that one cannot be separated from the other. The Ancient Holy One is revealed with three heads, which are united into one, and that head is three exalted. The Ancient One is described as being three: because the other lights emanating from him are included in the three. But how can three names be one? Are they really one because we call them one? How three can be one can only be known through the revelation of the Holy Spirit ." (Zohar, Vol III, 288; Vol II, 43, Hebrew editions. (See also Sonclno Press edition, Vol III, 134.)
How Many Persons are There?
If the Hebrew Scriptures truly do point to plurality, the question arises, how many personalities exist in the Godhead? We have already seen the names of God applied to at least two different personalities. Going through the Hebrew Scriptures we find that three, and only three, distinct personalities are ever considered divine.
1. First, there are the numerous times when there is a reference to the Lord YHVH. This usage is so frequent that there is no need to devote space to it.
2. A second personality is referred to as the Angel of YHVH. This individual is always considered distinct from all other angels and is unique. In almost every passage where he is found he is referred to as both the Angel of YHVH and YHVH himself. For instance in Genesis 16:7 he is referred to as the Angel of YHVH, but then in 16:13 as YHVH himself. In Genesis 22:11 he is the Angel of YHVH, but God himself in 22:12. Other examples could be given. (2)
A very interesting passage is Exodus 23:20-23 where this angel has the power to pardon sin because God's own name YHVH is in him, and, therefore, he is to be obeyed without question. This can hardly be said of any ordinary angel. But the very fact that God's own name is in this angel shows his divine status.
3. A third major personality that comes through is the Spirit of God, often referred to simply as the Ruach Ha-kodesh. There are a good number of references to the Spirit of God among which are Genesis 1:2; 6:3; Job 33:4; Psalm 51:11; 139:7; Isaiah 11:2; 63:10,14. The Holy Spirit cannot be a mere emanation because he has all the characteristics of personality (intellect, emotion and will) and is considered divine.
So then, from various sections of the Hebrew Scriptures there is a clear showing that three personalities are referred to as divine and as being God: the Lord YHVH, the Angel of YHVH and the Spirit of God.
The Three Personalities in the Same Passage
In the Hebrew Scriptures you will also find all three personalities of the Godhead referred to in single passages. Two examples are Isaiah 48:12-16 and 63:7-14.
Because of the significance of the first passage, it will be quoted:
"Listen to Me, O Jacob, and Israel, My called: I am He, I am the First, I am also the Last. Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth, and My right hand has stretched out the heavens; when I call to them, they stand up together. All of you, assemble yourselves, and hear! Who among them has declared these things? The LORD loves him; he shall do His pleasure on Babylon, and His arm shall be against the Chaldeans. I, even I, have spoken; yes, I have called him, I have brought him, and his way will prosper. Come near to Me, hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, I was there. And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit have sent Me."
It should be noted that the speaker refers to himself as the one who is responsible for the creation of the heavens and the earth. It is clear that he cannot be speaking of anyone other than God. But then in verse 16, the speaker refers to himself using the pronouns of "I" and "me" and then distinguishes himself from two other personalities. He distinguishes himself from the Lord YHVH and then from the Spirit of God. Here is the Tri-unity as clearly defined as the Hebrew Scriptures make it.
In the second passage, there is a reflection back to the time of the Exodus where all three personalities were present and active. The Lord YHVH is referred to in verse seven, the Angel of YHVH in verse nine and the Spirit of God in verses 10, 11 and 14. While often throughout the Hebrew Scriptures God refers to himself as being the one solely responsible for Israel's redemption from Egypt, in this passage three personalities are given credit for it. Yet no contradiction is seen since all three comprise the unity of the one Godhead.
Conclusion
The teaching of the Hebrew Scriptures, then is that there is a plurality of the Godhead. The first person is consistently called YHVH, while the second person is given the names of YHVH, the Angel of YHVH and the Servant of YHVH. Consistently and without fail, the second person is sent by the first person. The third person is referred to as the Spirit of YHVH or the Spirit of God or the Holy Spirit. He, too, is sent by the first person but is continually related to the ministry of the second person.
If the concept of the Tri-unity of God is not Jewish according to modern rabbis, then neither are the Hebrew Scriptures. Jewish Christians cannot be accused of having slipped into paganism when they hold to the fact that Jesus is the divine Son of God. He is the same one of whom Moses wrote when the Lord said:
"Behold, I send an Angel before you to keep you in the way and to bring you into the place which I have prepared. Beware of Him and obey His voice; do not provoke Him, for He will not pardon your transgressions; for My name is in Him. But if you indeed obey His voice and do all that I speak, then I will be an enemy to your enemies and an adversary to your adversaries For My Angel will go before you and bring you in to the Amorites and the Hittites and the Perizzites and the Canaanites and the Hivites and the Jebusites; and I will cut them off'' (Exodus 23:20-23).
New Testament Light
In keeping with the teachings of the Hebrew Scriptures, the New Testament clearly recognizes that there are three persons in the Godhead, although it becomes quite a bit more specific. The first person is called the Father while the second person is called the Son. The New Testament answers the question of Proverbs 30:4: "What is His name, and what is His Son's name If you know?'' His Son's name is Yeshua (Jesus). In accordance with the Hebrew Scriptures, he is sent by God to be the Messiah, but this time as a man instead of as an angel.
Furthermore, he is sent for a specific purpose: to die for our sins. In essence, what happened is that God became a man (not that man became God) in order to accomplish the work of atonement.
The New Testament calls the third person of the Godhead the Holy Spirit. Throughout the New Testament He is related to the work of the second person, in keeping with the teaching of the Hebrew Scriptures. We see, then, that there is a continuous body of teaching in both the Hebrew Scriptures and the New Testament relating to the Tri-unity of God.
Worship and Bible study for me is pretty much a 24/7 thing. God is the center of my life, around which everything else revolves. Based on the teachings contained in the Tenach alone, I believe this attitude before God is correct. Then, through the teachings of the New Testament and the sacrifice of the final Lamb, this attitude becomes a personal relationship, which is what He had with the first man and woman in Eden. It is open to all who call upon His name in truth. We don't earn it; we cannot earn it. But it is His gift which is appropriated by faith, just as Abel, Enoch, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, Gideon, Moses, Samuel, David, and the prophets were accepted through faith in Him.
I highly recommend either listening to Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum's testimony Testimony of Arnold Fruchtenbaum or, if you have time, reading his book: In The Steps of Messiah.
But as to your initial statement in your introductory OP, I respectfully think you may have a misunderstanding of the teaching of the Torah, indeed the entire Tenach, when it comes to the nature of God. for that reason I am including below a brief artcile by Dr. Fruchtenbaum reprinted from his Ariel Ministries site. I hope that you will read it, if you were honest with your initial statement that "the reason I joined the forum is to ask Christians there views on different topics relating to Judaism."
JEWISHNESS AND THE TRINITY
By Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum, Founder/Director of Ariel Ministries
שְׁמַ֖ע יִשְׂרָאֵ֑ל יְהוָ֥ה אֱלֹהֵ֖ינוּ יְהוָ֥ה ׀ אֶחָֽד ׃
Shema Yisroel Adonai Elochenu Adonai Echad
Hear O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord
Rabbi Stanley Greenberg of Temple Sinai in Philadelphia wrote:
"Christians are, of course, entitled to believe in a Trinitarian conception of God.
but their effort to base this conception on the Hebrew Bible must fly in the face
of the overwhelming testimony of that Bible. Hebrew Scriptures are clear and
unequivocal on the oneness of God The Hebrew Bible affirms the one God with
unmistakable clarity. Monotheism, an uncompromising belief in one God, is the
hallmark of the Hebrew Bible, the unwavering affirmation of Judaism and
the unshakable faith of the Jew."
Whether Christians are accused of being polytheists or tritheists and whether or not it is admitted that the Christian concept of the Tri-unity is a form of monotheism, one element always appears: one cannot believe in the Trinity and be Jewish. Even if what Christians believe is monotheistic, it still does not seem to be monotheistic enough to qualify as true Jewishness. Rabbi Greenberg's article tends to reflect that thinking.
He went on to say, "... under no circumstances can a concept of a plurality of the Godhead or a trinity of the Godhead ever be based upon the Hebrew Bible." It is perhaps best to begin with the very source of Jewish theology and the only means of testing it: Hebrew Scriptures. Since so much relies on Hebrew Scripture usage, then to the Hebrew we should turn.
The Name Elohim
It is generally agreed that Elohim is a plural noun having the masculine plural ending "im." The very word Elohim used of the true God in Genesis 1:1, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth," is also used in Exodus 20:3, "You shall have no other gods (Elohim) before Me," and in Deuteronomy 13:2, "Let us go after other gods (Elohim)... ." While the use of the plural Elohim does not prove a Tri-unity, it certainly opens the door to a doctrine of plurality in the Godhead since it is the word that is used for the one true God as well as for the many false gods.
Plural Verbs Used With Elohim
Virtually all Hebrew scholars do recognize that the word Elohim, as it stands by itself, is a plural noun. Nevertheless, they wish to deny that it allows for any plurality in the Godhead whatsoever. Their line of reasoning usually goes like this: When "Elohim" is used of the true God, it is followed by a singular verb; when it is used of false gods, it is followed by the plural verb. Rabbi Greenberg states it as follows:
"But, in fact, the verb used in the opening verse of Genesis is "bara," which means "he created" - singular. One need not be too profound a student of Hebrew to understand that the opening verse of Genesis clearly speaks of a singular God."
The point made, of course, is generally true because the Bible does teach that God is only one God and, therefore, the general pattern is to have the plural noun followed by the singular verb when it speaks of the one true God. However, there are places where the word is used of the true God and yet it is followed by a plural verb:
Genesis 20:13: And it came to pass, when God (Elohim) caused me to wander (Literally: THEY caused me to wander) from my father's house ...
Genesis 35:7: ... because there God (Elohim) appeared to him ... (Literally: THEY appeared to him.)
2 Samuel 7:23: ... God (Elohim) went ... (Literally: THEY went.)
Psalm 58:1-11: Surely He is God who judges ... (Literally: THEY judge.)
The Name Eloah
If the plural form Elohim was the only form available for a reference to God, then conceivably the argument might be made that the writers of the Hebrew Scriptures had no other alternative but to use the word Elohim for both the one true God and the many false gods. However, the singular form for Elohim (Eloah) exists and is used in such passages as Deuteronomy 32:15-17 and Habakkuk 3:3. This singular form could easily have been used consistently. Yet it is only used 250 times, while the plural form is used 2,500 times. The far greater use of the plural form again turns the argument in favor of plurality in the Godhead rather than against it.
Plural Pronouns
Another case in point regarding Hebrew grammar is that often when God speaks of himself, he clearly uses the plural pronoun:
Genesis 1:26: Then God (Elohim) said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness"
He could hardly have made reference to angels since man was created in the image of God and not of angels. The Midrash Rabbah on Genesis recognizes the strength of this passage and comments as follows:
Rabbi Samuel Bar Hanman in the name of Rabbi Jonathan said, that at the time when Moses wrote the Torah, writing a portion of it daily, when he came to the verse which says, "And Elohim said, let us make man in our image after our likeness," Moses said, "Master of the universe, why do you give here with an excuse to the sectarians (who believe in the Tri-unity of God)" God answered Moses, "You write and whoever wants to err, let him err." (Midrash Rabbah on Genesis 1:26 [New York NOP Press, N.D.])
It is obvious that the Midrash Rabbah is simply trying to get around the problem and fails to answer adequately why God refers to himself in the plural.
The use of the plural pronoun can also be seen In the following:
Genesis 3:22: Then the LORD God (YHVH Elohim) said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us''
Genesis 11:7: "Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language.''
Isaiah 6:8: Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying: "Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us?"
This last passage would appear contradictory with the singular "I" and the plural "us'' except as viewed as a plurality (us) in a unity (I).
Plural Descriptions of God
Another point that also comes out of Hebrew is the fact that often nouns and adjectives used in speaking of God are plural. Some examples are as follows:
Ecclesiastes 12:1: Remember now your Creator ... (Literally: CREATORS.)
Psalm 149:2: Let Israel rejoice in their Maker. (Literally: MAKERS.)
Joshua 24:19: ... holy God ... (Literally: HOLY GODS.)
Isaiah 54:5: For your Maker is your husband. (Literally: MAKERS, HUSBANDS.)
Everything we have said so far rests firmly on the Hebrew language of the Scriptures. If we are to base our theology on the Scriptures alone, we have to say that on the one hand they affirm God's unity, while at the same time they tend towards the concept of a compound unity allowing for a plurality in the Godhead.
The Shema
A verse in Deuteronomy, known as the SHEMA, has always been Israel's great confession.
Deuteronomy 6:4: Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one!
It is this verse more than any other that is used to affirm the fact that God is one and is often used to contradict the concept of plurality in the Godhead. But is it a valid use of this verse?
On the one hand it should be noted that the very words "our God" are in the plural in the Hebrew text and literally mean "our Gods." However, the main argument lies in the word "one," which is the Hebrew word, ECHAD. A glance through the Hebrew text where the word is used elsewhere can quickly show that the word echad does not mean an absolute "one" but a compound "one."
For instance, in Genesis 1:5 the combination of evening and morning comprise one (echad) day. In Genesis 2:24 a man and a woman come together in marriage and the two "shall become one (echad) flesh." In Ezra 2:64 we are told that the whole assembly was as one (echad), though, of course, it was composed of numerous people. Ezekiel 37:17 provides a rather striking example where two sticks are combined to become one (echad). Thus, use of the word echad in Scripture shows it to be a compound and not an absolute unity.
There is a Hebrew word that does mean an absolute unity and that is YACHID, which is found in many Scripture passages, (Genesis 22:2,12; Judges 11:34; Psalm 22:21: 25:16; Proverbs 4:3; Jeremiah 6:26; Amos 8:10; Zechariah 12:10) the emphasis being on the meaning of "only." If Moses intended to teach God's absolute oneness as over against a compound unity, this would have been a far more appropriate word. In fact, Maimonides noted the strength of "yachid' and chose to use that word in his "Thirteen Articles of Faith'' in place of echad. However, Deuteronomy 6:4 (the Shema) does not use "yachid" in reference to God.
Elohim and YHVH Applied to Two Personalities
To make the case for plurality even stronger, there are situations in the Hebrew Scriptures where the term Elohim is applied to two personalities in the same verse. One example is Psalm 45:6-7:
"Your throne, O God, is forever and ever: A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. You love righteousness and hate wickedness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness more than Your companions."
It should be noted that the first Elohim is being addressed and the second Elohim is the God of the first Elohim. And so God's God has anointed him with the oil of gladness.
A second example is Hosea 1:7:
"Yet I will have mercy on the house of Judah, will save them by the LORD their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword or battle, by horses or horsemen."
The speaker is Elohim who says he will have mercy on the house of Judah and will save them by the instrumentality of YHVH, their Elohim. So Elohim number one will save Israel by means of Elohim number two.
Not only is Elohim applied to two personalities in the same verse, but so is the very name of God. One example is Genesis 19:24:
"Then he LORD rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah from the LORD out of the heavens."
Clearly we have YHVH number one raining fire and brimstone from a second YHVH who is in heaven, the first one being on earth.
A second example is Zechariah 2:8-9:
"For thus says the LORD of hosts: "He sent Me after glory, to the nations which plunder you; for he who touches you touches the apple of His eye. For surely I will shake My hand against them, and they shall become spoil for their servants. Then you will know that the LORD of hosts has sent Me."
Again, we have one YHVH sending another YHVH to perform a specific task.
The author of the Zohar sensed plurality in the Tetragrammaton (1) and wrote:
"Come and see the mystery of the word YHVH: there are three steps, each existing by itself: nevertheless they are One, and so united that one cannot be separated from the other. The Ancient Holy One is revealed with three heads, which are united into one, and that head is three exalted. The Ancient One is described as being three: because the other lights emanating from him are included in the three. But how can three names be one? Are they really one because we call them one? How three can be one can only be known through the revelation of the Holy Spirit ." (Zohar, Vol III, 288; Vol II, 43, Hebrew editions. (See also Sonclno Press edition, Vol III, 134.)
How Many Persons are There?
If the Hebrew Scriptures truly do point to plurality, the question arises, how many personalities exist in the Godhead? We have already seen the names of God applied to at least two different personalities. Going through the Hebrew Scriptures we find that three, and only three, distinct personalities are ever considered divine.
1. First, there are the numerous times when there is a reference to the Lord YHVH. This usage is so frequent that there is no need to devote space to it.
2. A second personality is referred to as the Angel of YHVH. This individual is always considered distinct from all other angels and is unique. In almost every passage where he is found he is referred to as both the Angel of YHVH and YHVH himself. For instance in Genesis 16:7 he is referred to as the Angel of YHVH, but then in 16:13 as YHVH himself. In Genesis 22:11 he is the Angel of YHVH, but God himself in 22:12. Other examples could be given. (2)
A very interesting passage is Exodus 23:20-23 where this angel has the power to pardon sin because God's own name YHVH is in him, and, therefore, he is to be obeyed without question. This can hardly be said of any ordinary angel. But the very fact that God's own name is in this angel shows his divine status.
3. A third major personality that comes through is the Spirit of God, often referred to simply as the Ruach Ha-kodesh. There are a good number of references to the Spirit of God among which are Genesis 1:2; 6:3; Job 33:4; Psalm 51:11; 139:7; Isaiah 11:2; 63:10,14. The Holy Spirit cannot be a mere emanation because he has all the characteristics of personality (intellect, emotion and will) and is considered divine.
So then, from various sections of the Hebrew Scriptures there is a clear showing that three personalities are referred to as divine and as being God: the Lord YHVH, the Angel of YHVH and the Spirit of God.
The Three Personalities in the Same Passage
In the Hebrew Scriptures you will also find all three personalities of the Godhead referred to in single passages. Two examples are Isaiah 48:12-16 and 63:7-14.
Because of the significance of the first passage, it will be quoted:
"Listen to Me, O Jacob, and Israel, My called: I am He, I am the First, I am also the Last. Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth, and My right hand has stretched out the heavens; when I call to them, they stand up together. All of you, assemble yourselves, and hear! Who among them has declared these things? The LORD loves him; he shall do His pleasure on Babylon, and His arm shall be against the Chaldeans. I, even I, have spoken; yes, I have called him, I have brought him, and his way will prosper. Come near to Me, hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, I was there. And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit have sent Me."
It should be noted that the speaker refers to himself as the one who is responsible for the creation of the heavens and the earth. It is clear that he cannot be speaking of anyone other than God. But then in verse 16, the speaker refers to himself using the pronouns of "I" and "me" and then distinguishes himself from two other personalities. He distinguishes himself from the Lord YHVH and then from the Spirit of God. Here is the Tri-unity as clearly defined as the Hebrew Scriptures make it.
In the second passage, there is a reflection back to the time of the Exodus where all three personalities were present and active. The Lord YHVH is referred to in verse seven, the Angel of YHVH in verse nine and the Spirit of God in verses 10, 11 and 14. While often throughout the Hebrew Scriptures God refers to himself as being the one solely responsible for Israel's redemption from Egypt, in this passage three personalities are given credit for it. Yet no contradiction is seen since all three comprise the unity of the one Godhead.
Conclusion
The teaching of the Hebrew Scriptures, then is that there is a plurality of the Godhead. The first person is consistently called YHVH, while the second person is given the names of YHVH, the Angel of YHVH and the Servant of YHVH. Consistently and without fail, the second person is sent by the first person. The third person is referred to as the Spirit of YHVH or the Spirit of God or the Holy Spirit. He, too, is sent by the first person but is continually related to the ministry of the second person.
If the concept of the Tri-unity of God is not Jewish according to modern rabbis, then neither are the Hebrew Scriptures. Jewish Christians cannot be accused of having slipped into paganism when they hold to the fact that Jesus is the divine Son of God. He is the same one of whom Moses wrote when the Lord said:
"Behold, I send an Angel before you to keep you in the way and to bring you into the place which I have prepared. Beware of Him and obey His voice; do not provoke Him, for He will not pardon your transgressions; for My name is in Him. But if you indeed obey His voice and do all that I speak, then I will be an enemy to your enemies and an adversary to your adversaries For My Angel will go before you and bring you in to the Amorites and the Hittites and the Perizzites and the Canaanites and the Hivites and the Jebusites; and I will cut them off'' (Exodus 23:20-23).
New Testament Light
In keeping with the teachings of the Hebrew Scriptures, the New Testament clearly recognizes that there are three persons in the Godhead, although it becomes quite a bit more specific. The first person is called the Father while the second person is called the Son. The New Testament answers the question of Proverbs 30:4: "What is His name, and what is His Son's name If you know?'' His Son's name is Yeshua (Jesus). In accordance with the Hebrew Scriptures, he is sent by God to be the Messiah, but this time as a man instead of as an angel.
Furthermore, he is sent for a specific purpose: to die for our sins. In essence, what happened is that God became a man (not that man became God) in order to accomplish the work of atonement.
The New Testament calls the third person of the Godhead the Holy Spirit. Throughout the New Testament He is related to the work of the second person, in keeping with the teaching of the Hebrew Scriptures. We see, then, that there is a continuous body of teaching in both the Hebrew Scriptures and the New Testament relating to the Tri-unity of God.
BuzzardHut
Bird Mod
Welcome
:Muslims also believe God cannot become flesh and dwell among us but scripture tells us in John 1 that He did. Jesus is the only way to salvation, religion cannot accomplish what Jesus did for us on the cross and Jesus was even resurrected to give us new life. Religion cannot give us eternal life with God, it leads to a ditch of much pain and sorrow.
I've often wondered what the big deal was about the trinity with Jewish people as even King David himself acknowledged the "second part" of the trinity when he beg God not to take away the Holy Spirit from him. Jesus, the third part of the trinity, was the Messiah that Daniel predicted would be "cut off" or killed. That indicates that the Messiah had to be a man. It just turned out that he was God in the flesh as sinful men can't atone for other sinful men, there was only one who could atone for sin and that was the sinless one. Which he did as Jesus Christ, God in the flesh. Seems simple to me.
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micah719
an adopted son of The Most High God John 6:37-40
Romans 11
Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
Rom 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear
unto this day.
Rom 11:9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
Rom 11:10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
Rom 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
Rom 11:12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
Rom 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
Rom 11:14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
Rom 11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
Rom 11:16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Rom 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
Rom 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
Rom 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
Rom 11:34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
Rom 11:35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
Rom 11:36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.
Arguing over this will bring nothing. I'm praying that The Lord opens Johnny's heart and understanding to receive Him. An honest study of the Scriptures on the topic of His Name promises riches beyond description.
:
Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
Rom 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear
unto this day. Rom 11:9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
Rom 11:10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
Rom 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
Rom 11:12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
Rom 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
Rom 11:14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
Rom 11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
Rom 11:16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Rom 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
Rom 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
Rom 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
Rom 11:34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
Rom 11:35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
Rom 11:36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.
Arguing over this will bring nothing. I'm praying that The Lord opens Johnny's heart and understanding to receive Him. An honest study of the Scriptures on the topic of His Name promises riches beyond description.
:Thanks Johnny; the Lord's blessing is always greatly appreciated. We look forward to your questions, and we'll do our best to answer them as best we can.