Gog-Magog invasion timing

Flyfisher

New Member
I was thinking about this some more, and what really struck me is that contrast I mentioned above.


In both these passages, God speaks thru His prophets Ezekiel and Isaiah about a time of turning again to God, being made known among His own people, (and also the nations).

But it is really striking my eye how in Isaiah 17 (Destruction of Damascus passage --not the only one in the Bible btw) God uses an attempted invasion by Syria/Damascus in which they try to take spoil or steal from Israel. Vs 14 says this
14 In the evening, sudden terror!
Before the morning, they are gone!
This is the portion of those who loot us,
the lot of those who plunder us
.

Verse 9 explains how this happens-- it is the Israelites (the IDF) or the children of Israel as some translations give it that do the destruction
9 In that day their strong cities, which they left because of the Israelites, will be like places abandoned to thickets and undergrowth. And all will be desolation.

And somehow in this Israel begins to turn to God
V 7 In that day people will look to their Maker
and turn their eyes to the Holy One of Israel.

Whom they had abandoned as Vs 10-11 explains and notice this is addressed to Israel God YOUR Saviour, YOUR fortress. As the last half of v 10 and all of 11 explain, there were imported vines- fine plants they set out to make them grow. But the harvest is nothing in the day of disease and incurable pain. The context of this passage includes serious damage to Israel, while Damascus is completely obliterated. As I've thought about this, I've wondered about these vines, these imported plants that were set out to grow, that should provide a harvest for Israel. I keep thinking of peace plans and agreements that are foreign based, like the UN, the EU, the Accords, the Oslo agreement, all these things that promise protection to Israel but provide nothing.

V10 You have forgotten God your Savior;
you have not remembered the Rock, your fortress.

Therefore, though you set out the finest plants
and plant imported vines,
11 though on the day you set them out, you make them grow,
and on the morning when you plant them, you bring them to bud,
yet the harvest will be as nothing
in the day of disease and incurable pain.

So the contrasts in Isaiah 17 teach us a lot about what is happening.

The biggest one that I'm focused on today is the way God is allowing Israel to try making agreements or plans (vines and plants that they hope will bear a good harvest). Because the context is war, I don't think these vines etc are trade agreements. I used to wonder about other religions establishing footholds in Israel like the Catholic church and the Orthodox church and Islam's many sites on top of Israel's holiest sites. Now I think these refer to peace agreements that fail.

But Israel wins out even though at a serious cost.

And God is turning them back to HIM. (one of the reasons I wonder if we the church will still be here to see it)

Even so, Israel is just beginning to turn to God and the temptation perhaps at this point, like in the past would be to look to their army as the ones that carried them thru and saved them.

Next lets look at that thru Ezekiel 38 &39

This time God doesn't let them even TRY to do any self defence. Their IDF is NOT involved in protecting them AT ALL. This time it is 100% GOD's doing, no other explanation is allowable. A mighty invasion force sweeps in and in a day God has destroyed them. They fall on the mountains of Israel which range from Northern Israel by the Golan down thru the spine of Israel as the mountain range runs along the Eastern edge of the Jordan River Valley.

This time in the Ezekiel invasion, they are living in careless security, without fear, relying on their own ability and strength. And this invasion sweeps in. So fast, like a storm. I did a word study on that to help with the understanding of horses here but I got into the words used to describe how the enemy comes in, the speed, the overwhelming force etc. https://www.raptureforums.com/forum...er-division-august-2013-article.168728/page-2 and I started with post #35 if anyone is interested in following that up to see just how this invasion is described.

God is allowing them this time to have absolutely NO confidence in their own ability.

He removes all possibility this time for anyone in Israel to even consider that it was their own strength.

God is using contrasts again to teach Israel just WHO is in charge here, and it certainly isn't the IDF, or their peace agreements or other nations who are friendly.

This time even though there are some friendly nations (sort of) all they seem willing or able to do is mouth a weak question to Russia, Have You Come for Spoil????? Israel is already forming those agreements now with the Abraham Accords and perhaps in the aftermath of the destruction of Damascus that gets firmed up further. Israel isn't yet finished with relying on other nations rather than turning to God. But here in Ezekiel, these fail them completely.

Just look at how this chapter begins. Israel dwelling in careless confidence. God putting a hook in the jaw of Russia and the allies to sweep down into Israel. Suddenly.


But it ain't over yet even when they begin burying their enemies and burning the weapons.

Because the next opportunity they get (if my time line is correct) will be to make their covenant with Death and Hades as the Bible calls it. The overwhelming scourge. The covenant with the Antichrist.

And this is their third and final lesson.

Because that ends mid way thru the Tribulation when the AC shows his true colours and the Abomination of Desolation occurs which opens most Israeli Jews eyes to the truth of who this is. They flee to Petra and by the end of the Tribulation their leaders cry out to Christ Jesus their Messiah to come and SAVE THEM.


I see it as a 3 part system of wakening the Jews out of their partial hardness towards God's own Son their Messiah and deliverer. As Paul says in Romans 11 but I will quote vs 25-27
25 For I do not want you, brothers and sisters, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; 26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written:

“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
He will remove ungodliness from Jacob.”
27 “This is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

I see it as a process, that begins with Isaiah and ends with the Millennial Kingdom of King Jesus who will save all of Israel in the Day of His Appearing at the end of the Tribulation. They will have breath in them finally as a nation, and they will forever serve HIM. As will we who love Him and form the church soon to be Raptured out of here.
So at some point Israel has to have their Samson option removed. I don’t see this happening anytime soon unless they drop one on Iran and the world demands they destroy the remaining nukes.
 

katt

Well-Known Member
So at some point Israel has to have their Samson option removed. I don’t see this happening anytime soon unless they drop one on Iran and the world demands they destroy the remaining nukes.
I don't think it'll ever be removed, I believe, my own humble opinion...

There are many who don't believe Israel has a Samson option...and I believe Israel likes it that way...

Jesus said if those days were not cut short no human would survive on the planet..

My theory, and it is only a theory..

I believe, when the time comes, the only people left on the planet alive will be those who are alive in The Middle East...Israel has always said, never again...

They find themselves about to be anialated, God said, not for your sake will I save you..but for mine, the Israelis that escaped the AC at the time of The Abomination Of Desolation have been praying for 3 1/2 years for God's ydeliverance..

But the ones still in Jerusalem are still fighting and being slaughtered..

I believe someone, somewhere is about to hit The Samson Option button, thus taking out Israel and the entire Middle East..

Thus fulfilling Jesus's prophecy, however, God will never let Israel be anilated, either by doing it to themselves, or by anyone else...or maybe, just before they hit the button, what's left alive in Jerusalem, make one last ditch effort, and heartfully plead with God to please save them and Jesus says, finally, what took them so long, and he mounts his white horse and opens up the skies!!!...

Either way, the days are cut short, and Jesus saves mankind from annihilation...

And that's my theory...
 

athenasius

Well-Known Member
So at some point Israel has to have their Samson option removed. I don’t see this happening anytime soon unless they drop one on Iran and the world demands they destroy the remaining nukes.
You are right. At some point, between the Damascus destruction (which leaves northern Israel damaged according to the prophecies about that event) and Gog Magog, Israel settles back into peaceful complacent foolish contentment.

At the time of Ezek 38 they are at peace (as above, a careless peace that depends on their own ability and not on God). But in Ezek 38 UNLIKE Damascus, God does it all, it isn't something the children of Israel are able to deal with.

My suspicion is that those 2 events are separated by a time in which the world decides it's time to lay down the nukes, and Israel has had so much damage in the Damascus event, that they don't want to risk using anything like that.

I think Damascus comes before Ezek 38 and sets the stage for it.

For the record, the way it sounds in Isaiah 17 (as I've gone into above), Israel wasn't intending to set off a nuke on top of Damascus but something happened, and it escalated rapidly. The IDF responds to something that Damascus tries to do to Jerusalem, and they end up destroyed instead of Jerusalem.

When that takes place it looks like Israel goes into a complacent careless attitude until suddenly the invasion force of Ezek 38 is overhead, and God HIMSELF takes them out. The IDF simply has no time to respond. THAT MIGHT HAPPEN if some of the more foolish wannabe Prime Minister's of Israel make it into power after ousting Netanyahu. Not that they would lay down their nukes, but I'm thinking they might not react in time to use them in the Ezek 38 conflict.

Both Damascus and Ezek 38 appear to happen in the span of a single day.

Both are God showing Himself to Israel first of all, but also to the nations. Since this sounds a little like God's focus is again on Israel, it sounds like the church is out of the picture, especially when you see wording like Ezekiel 38:23

23 And so I will show my greatness and my holiness, and I will make myself known in the sight of many nations. Then they will know that I am the Lord.’

That suggests that the "many nations" do NOT know the Lord, which is not the case as long as the Church is here. Which is why I think that Ezek 38 is after the Rapture (and many theologians agree, while many have different ideas, so it's not a be all and end all situation).

This detail in Ezekiel 39:6-7 explains in further detail what happens
6 “And I will send fire on Magog and on those who live in security in the coastlands. Then they shall know that I am the Lord. 7 So I will make My holy name known in the midst of My people Israel, and I will not let them profane My holy name anymore. Then the nations shall know that I am the Lord, the Holy One in Israel.

It's a small point but since this is part of God's anger unleashed on the enemies of Israel, it could also mean that all the Christians in Iran for example, Russia, Turkey are suddenly lifted out at the Rapture as God destroys the invasion and goes back to their homelands and far coastlands to punish those involved.

But most importantly, this war is to end all doubt in Israel's mind as to God's existence and His care for Israel. It's part of the ongoing process to turn their hearts to HIM again, along with the events of the Tribulation. It is also a last chance for the surviving Gentiles to know who is God.
 

sawas

Well-Known Member
I was thinking about this some more, and what really struck me is that contrast I mentioned above.


In both these passages, God speaks thru His prophets Ezekiel and Isaiah about a time of turning again to God, being made known among His own people, (and also the nations).

But it is really striking my eye how in Isaiah 17 (Destruction of Damascus passage --not the only one in the Bible btw) God uses an attempted invasion by Syria/Damascus in which they try to take spoil or steal from Israel. Vs 14 says this
14 In the evening, sudden terror!
Before the morning, they are gone!
This is the portion of those who loot us,
the lot of those who plunder us
.

Verse 9 explains how this happens-- it is the Israelites (the IDF) or the children of Israel as some translations give it that do the destruction
9 In that day their strong cities, which they left because of the Israelites, will be like places abandoned to thickets and undergrowth. And all will be desolation.

And somehow in this Israel begins to turn to God
V 7 In that day people will look to their Maker
and turn their eyes to the Holy One of Israel.

Whom they had abandoned as Vs 10-11 explains and notice this is addressed to Israel God YOUR Saviour, YOUR fortress. As the last half of v 10 and all of 11 explain, there were imported vines- fine plants they set out to make them grow. But the harvest is nothing in the day of disease and incurable pain. The context of this passage includes serious damage to Israel, while Damascus is completely obliterated. As I've thought about this, I've wondered about these vines, these imported plants that were set out to grow, that should provide a harvest for Israel. I keep thinking of peace plans and agreements that are foreign based, like the UN, the EU, the Accords, the Oslo agreement, all these things that promise protection to Israel but provide nothing.

V10 You have forgotten God your Savior;
you have not remembered the Rock, your fortress.

Therefore, though you set out the finest plants
and plant imported vines,
11 though on the day you set them out, you make them grow,
and on the morning when you plant them, you bring them to bud,
yet the harvest will be as nothing
in the day of disease and incurable pain.

So the contrasts in Isaiah 17 teach us a lot about what is happening.

The biggest one that I'm focused on today is the way God is allowing Israel to try making agreements or plans (vines and plants that they hope will bear a good harvest). Because the context is war, I don't think these vines etc are trade agreements. I used to wonder about other religions establishing footholds in Israel like the Catholic church and the Orthodox church and Islam's many sites on top of Israel's holiest sites. Now I think these refer to peace agreements that fail.

But Israel wins out even though at a serious cost.

And God is turning them back to HIM. (one of the reasons I wonder if we the church will still be here to see it)

Even so, Israel is just beginning to turn to God and the temptation perhaps at this point, like in the past would be to look to their army as the ones that carried them thru and saved them.

Next lets look at that thru Ezekiel 38 &39

This time God doesn't let them even TRY to do any self defence. Their IDF is NOT involved in protecting them AT ALL. This time it is 100% GOD's doing, no other explanation is allowable. A mighty invasion force sweeps in and in a day God has destroyed them. They fall on the mountains of Israel which range from Northern Israel by the Golan down thru the spine of Israel as the mountain range runs along the Eastern edge of the Jordan River Valley.

This time in the Ezekiel invasion, they are living in careless security, without fear, relying on their own ability and strength. And this invasion sweeps in. So fast, like a storm. I did a word study on that to help with the understanding of horses here but I got into the words used to describe how the enemy comes in, the speed, the overwhelming force etc. https://www.raptureforums.com/forum...er-division-august-2013-article.168728/page-2 and I started with post #35 if anyone is interested in following that up to see just how this invasion is described.

God is allowing them this time to have absolutely NO confidence in their own ability.

He removes all possibility this time for anyone in Israel to even consider that it was their own strength.

God is using contrasts again to teach Israel just WHO is in charge here, and it certainly isn't the IDF, or their peace agreements or other nations who are friendly.

This time even though there are some friendly nations (sort of) all they seem willing or able to do is mouth a weak question to Russia, Have You Come for Spoil????? Israel is already forming those agreements now with the Abraham Accords and perhaps in the aftermath of the destruction of Damascus that gets firmed up further. Israel isn't yet finished with relying on other nations rather than turning to God. But here in Ezekiel, these fail them completely.

Just look at how this chapter begins. Israel dwelling in careless confidence. God putting a hook in the jaw of Russia and the allies to sweep down into Israel. Suddenly.


But it ain't over yet even when they begin burying their enemies and burning the weapons.

Because the next opportunity they get (if my time line is correct) will be to make their covenant with Death and Hades as the Bible calls it. The overwhelming scourge. The covenant with the Antichrist.

And this is their third and final lesson.

Because that ends mid way thru the Tribulation when the AC shows his true colours and the Abomination of Desolation occurs which opens most Israeli Jews eyes to the truth of who this is. They flee to Petra and by the end of the Tribulation their leaders cry out to Christ Jesus their Messiah to come and SAVE THEM.


I see it as a 3 part system of wakening the Jews out of their partial hardness towards God's own Son their Messiah and deliverer. As Paul says in Romans 11 but I will quote vs 25-27
25 For I do not want you, brothers and sisters, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; 26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written:

“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
He will remove ungodliness from Jacob.”
27 “This is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

I see it as a process, that begins with Isaiah and ends with the Millennial Kingdom of King Jesus who will save all of Israel in the Day of His Appearing at the end of the Tribulation. They will have breath in them finally as a nation, and they will forever serve HIM. As will we who love Him and form the church soon to be Raptured out of here.
Sorry @athenasius....it seems whenever I want to delve into more complicated subjects (which you seem to inspire for me) my life gets complicated again. So, I consider the Isaiah 17 question as a continuing placeholder for consideration. My particular hobby horse focus has been on resolution of tension between Russia and Turkey, which I see is lately inflamed again. I can't help but suspect that this plays a key role in the Damascus puzzle. It's more-or-less easy to imagine that Israel would feel compelled to respond to aggression that they might trace to Syria, but I can't quite imagine Syria acting out without the backing of Russia and some measure of stability in their various side-conflicts. Your thoughts are always appreciated.
 

kathymendel

Well-Known Member
In my mind's eye, I see the three nations uprooted by the antichrist as being the U.S.A., China and Russia.
These are the three largest and most leading edge governments/nations at present time. I think no other countries, even combined,
have the manpower, and military might to intimidate the ac. So, these three will be the ones he wants to uproot and destroy.
 

kathymendel

Well-Known Member
He is not just a human leader...........he is led and enabled by satan himself. Believe me, he will be able to uproot and destroy China.
However, after more thinking, I believe the ac will confiscate all the weaponry of the U.S., Russia, and China, to use for his own purposes.
The bible states the world will say, "Who is he that we can fight against him?" With all that power - nuclear and otherwise - indeed, who
would dare go against him?????

He eliminates three horns, and another small horn emerges from that place.........one with power and a loud voice. With all the weapons of
the three eliminated powers, you can bet he will be loud, powerful and very dangerous.
 

katt

Well-Known Member
No, the AC will not uproot China..Revelation says The Kings Of The East will rise and cross the Euphrates to invade the middle east...with a 2,000,000 man Army which China has had since the 70's, The AC will hear disturbing news out of the east and the north...

Daniel 11:44:
tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many.

Revelation 16:12, KJV: "And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared."


I have always been of the impression that this happens during the second half of the tribulation..but will he actually take out The Kings Of The East?

I don't think so..I believe this is the beginning of Armageddon..and life as the people of that time know it will be just about over..
 

athenasius

Well-Known Member
Sorry @athenasius....it seems whenever I want to delve into more complicated subjects (which you seem to inspire for me) my life gets complicated again. So, I consider the Isaiah 17 question as a continuing placeholder for consideration. My particular hobby horse focus has been on resolution of tension between Russia and Turkey, which I see is lately inflamed again. I can't help but suspect that this plays a key role in the Damascus puzzle. It's more-or-less easy to imagine that Israel would feel compelled to respond to aggression that they might trace to Syria, but I can't quite imagine Syria acting out without the backing of Russia and some measure of stability in their various side-conflicts. Your thoughts are always appreciated.
I was just noticing an update from an Israeli that I watch who mentioned a number of reasons why Turkey would be cozying up together now. Some of which we've already covered, the tension between Turkey and the US over the sale of the fighter jets, but a number of things including Biden pointing out that Turkey committed genocide against the Armenians. And the imploding Turkish economy alongside their currency crisis.

Syria I'm puzzling about.

I think part of that key in the Syria-Turkey-Russia axis is Iran. They love a good proxy war when others fight and die instead of them and they are getting mightily ticked off at Israel right now. Biden has told Israel to shut up about the nuclear threat and let him and Kerry etc handle that via the reopening of the JCPOA but Israel is dealing with multiple threats right now from Gaza as well as Iran. Israel is in a delicate position with their leadership in question till the election is sorted out (or as I suspect they go for another one)
 

athenasius

Well-Known Member
I wonder how he would uproot and destroy China.
Russia and the USA seem to be going in that direction but China???
China interests me. Firstly because they aren't mentioned except thru the broader "kings of the east" which imply a coalition, NOT a strictly Chinese led invasion and I agree that is later in Revelation.

Where they sit in relation to Ezek 38 is unknown in prophecy.

Here's a couple of things that rattle around in my head when I look at China though.

They are rivals of Russia for world domination. (if you ever saw the cartoon Pinky and the Brain, the theme of world domination will give a chuckle)

SOOOOO

That means to me that somehow, in someway they don't interfere with the Russian Turkish Iranian invasion listed in Ezek 38.

But contrary to the doom and gloom prophecy buffs who are ALWAYS predicting America's destruction I think America IS present as one of the cubs/daughters of Tarshish.

There are 2 main contenders for Tarshish-- one being Spain (if that is true then America, Spain and South America will launch that all important question to Russia --have you come for spoil?.

The other is Britain (and for reasons of that fact they fulfilled a prophecy of Isaiah with ships bringing survivors of the Holocaust to Israel I think it IS Britain).
and either way, America IS THERE just along with Britain, Australia, New Zealand and Canada which would be a likely grouping of Tarshish and her cubs/daughters if Britain is the winner of the Tarshish prize of Ezek 38.

SOOOOO
that means
America is around in a weakened state (just like right now under Biden if you ask me) or if the Lord tarries and this takes a while yet for Ezek 38 to play out then some future president that the Dems manage to put into place which seems likely.

BBBUUUUTTTTT and it's a big big BUTT
China isn't.

They are either too weak to try and challenge Russia for control of Israel (which they WANT -- plenty of news articles on their Belt and Road project and of their buy up of Israeli ports (similar to what they've done in the Panama)

OR

something happened to take them out of the equation for now. I think there are 2 things that could happen-- Mt Paektu which straddles the North Korean and Chinese border is a MASSIVE super volcano system that is sort of like Yellowstone in the Pacific North West area. Then there is the 5 Gorges dam which has some serious engineering defects that last years floods threatened to take out. That would gut China for quite a while. Either one.
 

cavalier973

Well-Known Member
China interests me. Firstly because they aren't mentioned except thru the broader "kings of the east" which imply a coalition, NOT a strictly Chinese led invasion and I agree that is later in Revelation.

Where they sit in relation to Ezek 38 is unknown in prophecy.

Here's a couple of things that rattle around in my head when I look at China though.

They are rivals of Russia for world domination. (if you ever saw the cartoon Pinky and the Brain, the theme of world domination will give a chuckle)

SOOOOO

That means to me that somehow, in someway they don't interfere with the Russian Turkish Iranian invasion listed in Ezek 38.

But contrary to the doom and gloom prophecy buffs who are ALWAYS predicting America's destruction I think America IS present as one of the cubs/daughters of Tarshish.

There are 2 main contenders for Tarshish-- one being Spain (if that is true then America, Spain and South America will launch that all important question to Russia --have you come for spoil?.

The other is Britain (and for reasons of that fact they fulfilled a prophecy of Isaiah with ships bringing survivors of the Holocaust to Israel I think it IS Britain).
and either way, America IS THERE just along with Britain, Australia, New Zealand and Canada which would be a likely grouping of Tarshish and her cubs/daughters if Britain is the winner of the Tarshish prize of Ezek 38.

SOOOOO
that means
America is around in a weakened state (just like right now under Biden if you ask me) or if the Lord tarries and this takes a while yet for Ezek 38 to play out then some future president that the Dems manage to put into place which seems likely.

BBBUUUUTTTTT and it's a big big BUTT
China isn't.

They are either too weak to try and challenge Russia for control of Israel (which they WANT -- plenty of news articles on their Belt and Road project and of their buy up of Israeli ports (similar to what they've done in the Panama)

OR

something happened to take them out of the equation for now. I think there are 2 things that could happen-- Mt Paektu which straddles the North Korean and Chinese border is a MASSIVE super volcano system that is sort of like Yellowstone in the Pacific North West area. Then there is the 5 Gorges dam which has some serious engineering defects that last years floods threatened to take out. That would gut China for quite a while. Either one.
Could be another Coronavirus.


The volcano idea appeals to me, though; Yellowstone Park in Wyoming sits atop a supervolcano. What if all the volcanos pop off at the same time?

China isn't, as I understand it, a monolithic culture. There are numerous peoples that we call "Chinese" who cant even understand each others' languages. The communist government that holds the nation together could lose power for some reason, and China could split into multiple, competing states.
 

cavalier973

Well-Known Member
Wow. This thread started a year ago. Very helpful input from everyone. And, to answer a question posted last year, I do not mind, at all, if people go off-topic, because getting the timeline of different events does,relate to the main topic.

Ironically, the guy whose views concerning the timing of the Gog/Magog invasion that prompted my original question has a series of lectures on Revelation that I am listening to (again).

He has a very grimdark view of the Tribulation. All the stuff in "Left Behind" about cell phones and jet planes still working? He scoffs at that. The idea that a group of believers start a resistance movement? He scorns it.

He believes that the sounding of the first and second trumpet represent the obliteration of North and South America, which represent about a third of the earth's land mass. He argues that the livable space on earth is slowly reduced to the Land of Israel, the area around Babylon, and the area in-between. His descriptions help one understand that there will be no way to survive the Tribulation apart from God's decree. All the stuff about building your Tribulation Bunker, and storing up freeze dried foods, and having jugs of potable water (seven years' worth!) so that one can live through the Tribulation is silly.

To the original question: as I recall*, He identifies the Gog-Magog invasion with the "Camp of the Saints" battle because, he reasons, they are using wooden weapons. After all, the Israelites burn the weapons for seven years, so they must be wooden, right? Therefore, since (he argues) there will be no technology during the Thousand-year Kingdom, amd since there will be no war during that time, the aggressors in the Rev20 battle have to do what they can with what they have, which is to make weapons out of wood. Or, something like that. Also, the Revelation 20 battle mentions Gog and Magog, so...yeah.

But, as sawas pointed out a year ago, the Ezekiel 38 invasion comes from specific regions, while the Rev20 battle involves people from the "four corners of the earth". One can only massage that last detail so much before it starts cramping up.


*I am not really interested in listening to his Ezekiel lectures again to verify, evem though I will relisten to his Revelation lectures, which I like. There were a few things about his Ezekiel lectures besides his incorrect timing of the Gog/Magog war that bothered me.

Some examples:
*He taught that our Lord Jesus sits in the Holy of Holies of the temple for a thousand years, never leaving, even to stretch His legs. That is weird.
*He is often vague about what group he is speaking of, but it *sounded* like he believes that we, as Church-Age believers who have been raptured (he does teach a pretrib rapture of the Church) still live on the earth, being farmers. Again, he may not mean the Church Age believers, and is only referencing those mortal survivers of the Tribulation and their descendants, but he uses "you" a lot ("You will spend the thousand years farming"), which is vague and confusing.
*He seems to think that Christians can lose their reward gained at the Bema seat, which contradicts what our Lord Jesus stated--that our treasure in heaven cannot be lost to thieves or decay.
*He is Calvinist--perhaps even of the "hyper" variety.

So, why do I listen to him?
Guilty pleasure? Maybe?

I listen to a lot of Bible teachers that I don't agree with. I consider Dr. Andy Woods one of the soundest Bible teachers/preachers in the ministry today, and yet I find some of what he says exasperating.

The late, great Chuck Missler really started my journey into in-depth Bible study, and I, (like Robert Downey, Jr. (!)) love that guy. I vehemently disagree with some of his teachings, which I think are actually dangerous. The good thing about Missler is that he will often tell you to not take what he says at face value, but to check it out in the Scriptures. I find him very humble, even when he is being dogmatic.

Anyway, thanks for all the repsonses, and keep them coming! Even after we hear the Trumpet, and a voice calling us to "Come up here!", maybe those who unfortunately didnt believe until after we've been raptured will find this thread, and it will help them noodle out what is going on.
 

sawas

Well-Known Member
I was just noticing an update from an Israeli that I watch who mentioned a number of reasons why Turkey would be cozying up together now. Some of which we've already covered, the tension between Turkey and the US over the sale of the fighter jets, but a number of things including Biden pointing out that Turkey committed genocide against the Armenians. And the imploding Turkish economy alongside their currency crisis.

Syria I'm puzzling about.

I think part of that key in the Syria-Turkey-Russia axis is Iran. They love a good proxy war when others fight and die instead of them and they are getting mightily ticked off at Israel right now. Biden has told Israel to shut up about the nuclear threat and let him and Kerry etc handle that via the reopening of the JCPOA but Israel is dealing with multiple threats right now from Gaza as well as Iran. Israel is in a delicate position with their leadership in question till the election is sorted out (or as I suspect they go for another one)
Me too. I agree with you that Syria (the geographic region, if not the government) is a real linchpin here that could trigger the rest. The heightened international focus in the region keeps my eyes on it, of course. It's hard not to imagine it as a something like sick calf with various predators picking at the soft bits before it's dead. I agree too with the notion that Iran is a definite wild card (or loose cannon) to watch. They could easily cross a line that would inspire more dramatic responses from Israel...but for that to occur against Damascus, specifically, I'd imagine that Assad would have to do something spectacularly stoooooopid. (I'm sure he's capable of that.) I thought that Israel's recent (February?) missile attacks on the outskirts of the city signified their willingness to engage directly. For the city itself, to be a target I'd have to imagine it would have to involve more serious staging of international troops...just a guess.
 

sawas

Well-Known Member
Wow. This thread started a year ago. Very helpful input from everyone. And, to answer a question posted last year, I do not mind, at all, if people go off-topic, because getting the timeline of different events does,relate to the main topic.

Ironically, the guy whose views concerning the timing of the Gog/Magog invasion that prompted my original question has a series of lectures on Revelation that I am listening to (again).

He has a very grimdark view of the Tribulation. All the stuff in "Left Behind" about cell phones and jet planes still working? He scoffs at that. The idea that a group of believers start a resistance movement? He scorns it.

He believes that the sounding of the first and second trumpet represent the obliteration of North and South America, which represent about a third of the earth's land mass. He argues that the livable space on earth is slowly reduced to the Land of Israel, the area around Babylon, and the area in-between. His descriptions help one understand that there will be no way to survive the Tribulation apart from God's decree. All the stuff about building your Tribulation Bunker, and storing up freeze dried foods, and having jugs of potable water (seven years' worth!) so that one can live through the Tribulation is silly.

To the original question: as I recall*, He identifies the Gog-Magog invasion with the "Camp of the Saints" battle because, he reasons, they are using wooden weapons. After all, the Israelites burn the weapons for seven years, so they must be wooden, right? Therefore, since (he argues) there will be no technology during the Thousand-year Kingdom, amd since there will be no war during that time, the aggressors in the Rev20 battle have to do what they can with what they have, which is to make weapons out of wood. Or, something like that. Also, the Revelation 20 battle mentions Gog and Magog, so...yeah.

But, as sawas pointed out a year ago, the Ezekiel 38 invasion comes from specific regions, while the Rev20 battle involves people from the "four corners of the earth". One can only massage that last detail so much before it starts cramping up.


*I am not really interested in listening to his Ezekiel lectures again to verify, evem though I will relisten to his Revelation lectures, which I like. There were a few things about his Ezekiel lectures besides his incorrect timing of the Gog/Magog war that bothered me.

Some examples:
*He taught that our Lord Jesus sits in the Holy of Holies of the temple for a thousand years, never leaving, even to stretch His legs. That is weird.
*He is often vague about what group he is speaking of, but it *sounded* like he believes that we, as Church-Age believers who have been raptured (he does teach a pretrib rapture of the Church) still live on the earth, being farmers. Again, he may not mean the Church Age believers, and is only referencing those mortal survivers of the Tribulation and their descendants, but he uses "you" a lot ("You will spend the thousand years farming"), which is vague and confusing.
*He seems to think that Christians can lose their reward gained at the Bema seat, which contradicts what our Lord Jesus stated--that our treasure in heaven cannot be lost to thieves or decay.
*He is Calvinist--perhaps even of the "hyper" variety.

So, why do I listen to him?
Guilty pleasure? Maybe?

I listen to a lot of Bible teachers that I don't agree with. I consider Dr. Andy Woods one of the soundest Bible teachers/preachers in the ministry today, and yet I find some of what he says exasperating.

The late, great Chuck Missler really started my journey into in-depth Bible study, and I, (like Robert Downey, Jr. (!)) love that guy. I vehemently disagree with some of his teachings, which I think are actually dangerous. The good thing about Missler is that he will often tell you to not take what he says at face value, but to check it out in the Scriptures. I find him very humble, even when he is being dogmatic.

Anyway, thanks for all the repsonses, and keep them coming! Even after we hear the Trumpet, and a voice calling us to "Come up here!", maybe those who unfortunately didnt believe until after we've been raptured will find this thread, and it will help them noodle out what is going on.
Interesting, the roads some take...glad you started the thread, it's been good for me as well.
 

katt

Well-Known Member
I try to check in with the Jerusalem Post regularly (once a week or so). There used to others I'd look at, but increasingly paywalls have limited their use to me.
Thank You..I watch Jerusalem Dateline on Daystar..but it's only on once a week, and only for I think 30 minutes, if they're on longer there are very long infomercials on in between segments..so I tape it on the DVR and fast forward..
 
Wow. This thread started a year ago. Very helpful input from everyone. And, to answer a question posted last year, I do not mind, at all, if people go off-topic, because getting the timeline of different events does,relate to the main topic.

Ironically, the guy whose views concerning the timing of the Gog/Magog invasion that prompted my original question has a series of lectures on Revelation that I am listening to (again).

He has a very grimdark view of the Tribulation. All the stuff in "Left Behind" about cell phones and jet planes still working? He scoffs at that. The idea that a group of believers start a resistance movement? He scorns it.

He believes that the sounding of the first and second trumpet represent the obliteration of North and South America, which represent about a third of the earth's land mass. He argues that the livable space on earth is slowly reduced to the Land of Israel, the area around Babylon, and the area in-between. His descriptions help one understand that there will be no way to survive the Tribulation apart from God's decree. All the stuff about building your Tribulation Bunker, and storing up freeze dried foods, and having jugs of potable water (seven years' worth!) so that one can live through the Tribulation is silly.

To the original question: as I recall*, He identifies the Gog-Magog invasion with the "Camp of the Saints" battle because, he reasons, they are using wooden weapons. After all, the Israelites burn the weapons for seven years, so they must be wooden, right? Therefore, since (he argues) there will be no technology during the Thousand-year Kingdom, amd since there will be no war during that time, the aggressors in the Rev20 battle have to do what they can with what they have, which is to make weapons out of wood. Or, something like that. Also, the Revelation 20 battle mentions Gog and Magog, so...yeah.

But, as sawas pointed out a year ago, the Ezekiel 38 invasion comes from specific regions, while the Rev20 battle involves people from the "four corners of the earth". One can only massage that last detail so much before it starts cramping up.


*I am not really interested in listening to his Ezekiel lectures again to verify, evem though I will relisten to his Revelation lectures, which I like. There were a few things about his Ezekiel lectures besides his incorrect timing of the Gog/Magog war that bothered me.

Some examples:
*He taught that our Lord Jesus sits in the Holy of Holies of the temple for a thousand years, never leaving, even to stretch His legs. That is weird.
*He is often vague about what group he is speaking of, but it *sounded* like he believes that we, as Church-Age believers who have been raptured (he does teach a pretrib rapture of the Church) still live on the earth, being farmers. Again, he may not mean the Church Age believers, and is only referencing those mortal survivers of the Tribulation and their descendants, but he uses "you" a lot ("You will spend the thousand years farming"), which is vague and confusing.
*He seems to think that Christians can lose their reward gained at the Bema seat, which contradicts what our Lord Jesus stated--that our treasure in heaven cannot be lost to thieves or decay.
*He is Calvinist--perhaps even of the "hyper" variety.

So, why do I listen to him?
Guilty pleasure? Maybe?

I listen to a lot of Bible teachers that I don't agree with. I consider Dr. Andy Woods one of the soundest Bible teachers/preachers in the ministry today, and yet I find some of what he says exasperating.

The late, great Chuck Missler really started my journey into in-depth Bible study, and I, (like Robert Downey, Jr. (!)) love that guy. I vehemently disagree with some of his teachings, which I think are actually dangerous. The good thing about Missler is that he will often tell you to not take what he says at face value, but to check it out in the Scriptures. I find him very humble, even when he is being dogmatic.

Anyway, thanks for all the repsonses, and keep them coming! Even after we hear the Trumpet, and a voice calling us to "Come up here!", maybe those who unfortunately didnt believe until after we've been raptured will find this thread, and it will help them noodle out what is going on.
Anything, in particular, that you find exasperating about Andy Woods? I am beginning to listen to him and I would love to know what you find 'concerning' about his teachings. I love listening to him although I do tend to find myself dozing off to his voice. He's a natural sleeping tablet which is fantastic.
 

daygo

Well-Known Member
Anything, in particular, that you find exasperating about Andy Woods? I am beginning to listen to him and I would love to know what you find 'concerning' about his teachings. I love listening to him although I do tend to find myself dozing off to his voice. He's a natural sleeping tablet which is fantastic.
Know what you mean, Nathan Morris worship leader used to do the worship before his sermon, myself and the wife used to doze off listening to the worship singing.
 
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