Gog-Magog invasion timing

I just took time out to re read this whole thread. We sure covered a lot of ground with a lot of great input from a number of members here.

(we covered that and all the other interesting possibilities re Psalm 83 in the previous replies in this thread)

That treaty! It has to be something that the AC takes on, and improves somehow. Heqbir or some such wording in Daniel. Meaning to reinforce, improve on, make stronger or better. I still look at Trump's Israel deal that came out Jan 28 of 2020 finally after so many false starts. God had held it back by some pretty impressive "coincidences" which always drew my attention. It needed to be put back on the shelf for some reason. And it has been. Since the Abraham accords (which do more to solidify an alliance between Sheba and Dedan with Israel as per Ezek 38 ) it's back on a shelf. In my opinion ready for the AC to grab and put his stamp onto it. Which I think happens after Ezek 38 finishes up. God will do it, but the AC will take advantage of the removal of the big world power of Russia (she is still building up to that).

We covered earlier how America had to become irrelevant on the world stage, and how she could NOT be a friend to Israel at the time of Ezek 38. And since that time we've seen that precondition work out as prophesied.

The 10 king system I think will arise after the Ezek 38 event and after the rapture in my thinking, in a portioning out of power across the globe-- kind of a response to the financial collapse (which I still think will happen in response to the Rapture) and in response to the power vacuum left by the fall of Russia and hardline Islam. While the 10 kings don't have to be there at the time of the beginning of the Trib and the treaty between Israel (the many) and the AC, they have to be in place for the AC to rise up and take out 3 of them. That could definitely happen later -- after the Trib starts.

"in my analysis of those late-Trib theories, that I'm convinced that the Ezekiel 38 war would be likely to trigger the final wave of Jews to Israel (along with the Treaty). A later placement would contribute to those events at all." I most definitely agree. I don't think all the Jews will be home in Israel until the Lord brings them all back for the Millennial Reign. Jesus talks about how people/nations treated His brethren (Jews and Tribulation believers) in the Sheep Goat judgment. For that to happen, the Jews and the Gentile believers are still all over the planet. The Jews will continue to return in waves till finally they are all regathered in Israel under King Jesus.

It's interesting that we covered some speculation of what would happen to remove Trump from his protection of Israel-- and it's happened. This makes Damascus more likely than ever.

You are so right about Biden and Syria and stirring the pot. He is almost driving Sheba and Dedan together with Israel in the Abe Acc. which I think will simply function as part of the Sheba Dedan Tarshish question to Russia et al "Have you come for Spoil?" I've been sure since the day after your elections, that Biden would put the Middle East in an uproar and force alliances between Sheba and Dedan with Israel against Iran and Turkey.

I've always seen Damascus as an accidental thing. Syria does something to start a war with Israel (those gleanings in the Valley of the Rephaim-- that northern train corridor area of Israel) and instead of winning territory (probably the Golan is the trigger-- Syria with Russia's backing views the Golan as theirs) they end up with Israel doing something in retaliation.

But it blows up bigger than Israel or Syria expected, and hits some kind of something that blows Damascus off the map. The oldest inhabited city on earth disappears in a night.

It's not Israel's style to take everything and everyone out all at once. They prefer to pinpoint strike. They are currently doing a number of pinpoint strikes.

But one of these days, they may hit one of the multiple stockpiles of nuclear, biologic or explosive stockpiles that Iran is constantly setting up, or maybe from the known WMD's that Syria took over in the latter days of Iraq's war when everyone made much of the Americans going in and not finding the WMDs. They had been moved already, to Syria and remain there under Assad's care and keeping which came out later. Not in time to stop the ridicule of Bush, unfortunately but it came out.

Somehow a chain reaction gets set off.

Russia turns their attention back around to Israel. That pipeline-- due in 2025 is a serious threat to their financial stability as Israel would be a HUGE rival for European markets for oil and natural gas. Damascus gets them mad enough to do something, possibly before the pipeline is finished (but they would prefer Israel did the heavy lifting to build it.)

That's how I see it. I think at the time of Damascus some other stuff is happening, from other scriptures that link up Damascus (Jeremiah or Ezek 32, cant' remember off the top) with some of Bill Salus's other Ps 83 gang.

I don't think Ps 83 happens quite like Bill sets out in his books. I think some of the players end up dead because of something that they do but I'm not sure if this happens with Damascus or some of it happens mid Trib. Ps 83 players do have parts to play in the Trib.
I always look forward to your perspective on things. You help me to understand prophecy so much better. Thank you!! :thumbup
 

athenasius

Well-Known Member
A couple of interesting things that Biden's State Dept and Biden's energy policy are doing that possibly push things along towards Ezek 38

I'll start with the Golan and end with what Russia is doing to get the money to fund her future invasion of Israel.
What are you seeing/hearing in regard to the Golan?
Oh my yes! --how about this little gem?

https://www.timesofisrael.com/in-re...e-dept-report-refers-to-occupied-territories/
which essentially means that under Biden's admin, the US State Dept is sending CLEAR signals to the Syrian regime that the Golan is not rightfully held by Israel and therefore ripe for the pickings. One of the things Trump did was to make it clear that Israel had a right to stay in the Golan, it was part of their original borders but of course during the 1948 war and the back and forth since then it changed hands always with Israel needing to retake that high ground to prevent shelling of their settlements around the Sea of Galilee.

This was how Russia, Iran, Syria and Europe viewed Trump and the Golan in 2019 https://www.dw.com/en/russia-iran-and-syria-slam-trumps-golan-heights-comments/a-48016842 They were very unhappy

And 2020
https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/inte...over-golan-heights-in-syria-to-israel-s-north This is from an Israeli news organization.

and last month
https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/menasource/the-many-paths-to-syrian-israeli-reconciliation/

So I see a gradual steady increase in Russian, Iranian and Syrian forces near the Golan. Turkey will join them eventually, just not yet. The fact that Turkey has ties to Russia and Iran and is established in northern Syria isn't enough to say Gog Magog is around the next corner, they have to be a lot closer diplomatically to Russia and Iran. I can see that happening as Biden fumbles his way thru Syria-- pushing the allies of Ezek 38 into closer bonds.

On to the second thing Biden is busy doing---

Pushing the price of oil UP! Supply and demand. During Covid the demand for oil crashed, this led a lot of American oil producers to stop pulling oil up out of the ground like they had been under Trump. Under Trump American oil was flowing freely, the price was dropping. That was hardest on RUSSIA because pulling oil out of their frozen ground is very expensive so the Saudi's and Russia were hurting. The Saudi's have funded their entire society on excess cash from charging high prices for oil in their cartel. Russia has been gaining wealth purely on oil. Russia and the Saudis depend on high oil prices. Trump didn't. American oil was bringing supply to the world cheaper than ever.

Then covid hit. And nobody was flying, driving, boating, or running trains, tanker trucks or even factories. All the oil was worthless without a market. And capping an oil well is expensive. It isn't easy to just turn the tap off, leave it in the ground for later.

Then Biden came to power. His environmental backers wanted nothing more than an end to oil (Greta Thunberg etc) and coal for that matter. He squashed the Keystone pipeline, ending jobs for Americans (and Canadians) taking our oil down south to Texas to be refined.

https://www.city-journal.org/bidens-keystone-xl-cancellation

Of course this meant that instead of a fairly safe method of transporting the oil, the riskier transport by rail (that was behind the CN railway deal that hit the news) https://financialpost.com/commoditi...ulf-coast-refineries-coming-from-cp-rail-deal or by tanker trucks, which routinely de rail or have accidents involving spills all the time. It would have been carbon neutral proving that carbon is not really why Biden and the environmental wing of the Democratic party are into global warming. It's about control.

So now you have oil prices going up, way up. The people that benefit are NOT the American oil workers or the Canucks for that matter. Nor the long suffering tax payers buying gas at the pump! The people who benefit from Biden's oil squashing policy are the Saudis (who don't trust Biden because he is friendly to their arch enemy Iran) and RUSSIA!

Good old mother Russia again. Back making money on oil. Because Biden is in office. If anyone thinks that Biden will interfere with Russian oil pipelines to Europe like Trump was doing, think again. https://www.cnbc.com/2021/03/09/nor...ispute-is-likely-to-go-from-bad-to-worse.html This article suggests that Biden will follow Trump's policy of opposition. I doubt Biden's State Dept is going to do much of anything to oppose this. I disagree with CNBC's conclusions, as I usually do, they are usually aimed in the wrong direction, I include the link just to show that nord stream 2 is nearly a done deal.

AND here's a third little thought that's been rolling around my brain lately.

Gomer and all her hordes. We see that in Ezek 38:6 as part of the invasion force. Some of Gomer is in Turkey more or less. But the ancient tribes that came from Gomer included the bands of nomads that settled Germany. Dr Arnold Fruchtenbaum mentions it, and I've seen it elsewhere.

Turkey, modern Turks are related to Germans in a far off way back connection. It's interesting that they are also connected to the tribes that migrated north into Russia.

So my thought is that we might see a further warming of ties between Germany and Russia and Germany and Turkey. I know, that is WAY OUT THERE. But it's crossed my mind.

If that is true then we have 3 nations that have historicallypersecuted and practised genocide on their Jewish populations (the Ottoman Turks, the Russians from the Czars down to the Communists and beyond, and the Germans) who would invade together with the other participants in the Ezek 38 invasion. And God would deal with them.

And if that is AFTER the Rapture (shortly after) there would be little to no Christians in any German, Turkish, Russian, Iranian army unit as God punishes these nations. It's another reason I think that it might be after the Rapture. Which would also explain why God says He does it to be KNOWN among the nations in verses 16 & 23. If we were still here, wouldn't we know Him already?
 
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Wings Like Eagles

Well-Known Member
AND here's a third little thought that's been rolling around my brain lately.

Gomer and all her hordes. We see that in Ezek 38:6 as part of the invasion force. Some of Gomer is in Turkey more or less. But the ancient tribes that came from Gomer included the bands of nomads that settled Germany. Dr Arnold Fruchtenbaum mentions i

So my thought is that we might see a further warming of ties between Germany and Russia and Germany and Turkey. I know, that is WAY OUT THERE. But it's crossed my mind.

If that is true then we have 3 nations that have historically persecuted and practised genocide on their Jewish populations (the Ottoman Turks, the Russians from the Czars down to the Communists and beyond, and the Germans) who would invade together with the other participants in the Ezek 38 invasion. And God would deal with them.

And if that is AFTER the Rapture (shortly after) there would be little to no Christians in any German, Turkish, Russian, Iranian army unit as God punishes these nations. It's another reason I think that it might be after the Rapture. Which would also explain why God says He does it to be KNOWN among the nations in verses 16 & 23. If we were still here, wouldn't we know Him already?
Interesting. All three nations have a history of engaging in severe persecution of Christians and/or Jews (Stalin deliberately starved-to-death perhaps as many as 20 million Ukrainian Christians). So God has a score to settle with them.
 
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sawas

Well-Known Member
A couple of interesting things that Biden's State Dept and Biden's energy policy are doing that possibly push things along towards Ezek 38

I'll start with the Golan and end with what Russia is doing to get the money to fund her future invasion of Israel.

Oh my yes! --how about this little gem?

https://www.timesofisrael.com/in-re...e-dept-report-refers-to-occupied-territories/
which essentially means that under Biden's admin, the US State Dept is sending CLEAR signals to the Syrian regime that the Golan is not rightfully held by Israel and therefore ripe for the pickings. One of the things Trump did was to make it clear that Israel had a right to stay in the Golan, it was part of their original borders but of course during the 1948 war and the back and forth since then it changed hands always with Israel needing to retake that high ground to prevent shelling of their settlements around the Sea of Galilee.

This was how Russia, Iran, Syria and Europe viewed Trump and the Golan in 2019 https://www.dw.com/en/russia-iran-and-syria-slam-trumps-golan-heights-comments/a-48016842 They were very unhappy

And 2020
https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/inte...over-golan-heights-in-syria-to-israel-s-north This is from an Israeli news organization.

and last month
https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/menasource/the-many-paths-to-syrian-israeli-reconciliation/

So I see a gradual steady increase in Russian, Iranian and Syrian forces near the Golan. Turkey will join them eventually, just not yet. The fact that Turkey has ties to Russia and Iran and is established in northern Syria isn't enough to say Gog Magog is around the next corner, they have to be a lot closer diplomatically to Russia and Iran. I can see that happening as Biden fumbles his way thru Syria-- pushing the allies of Ezek 38 into closer bonds.

On to the second thing Biden is busy doing---

Pushing the price of oil UP! Supply and demand. During Covid the demand for oil crashed, this led a lot of American oil producers to stop pulling oil up out of the ground like they had been under Trump. Under Trump American oil was flowing freely, the price was dropping. That was hardest on RUSSIA because pulling oil out of their frozen ground is very expensive so the Saudi's and Russia were hurting. The Saudi's have funded their entire society on excess cash from charging high prices for oil in their cartel. Russia has been gaining wealth purely on oil. Russia and the Saudis depend on high oil prices. Trump didn't. American oil was bringing supply to the world cheaper than ever.

Then covid hit. And nobody was flying, driving, boating, or running trains, tanker trucks or even factories. All the oil was worthless without a market. And capping an oil well is expensive. It isn't easy to just turn the tap off, leave it in the ground for later.

Then Biden came to power. His environmental backers wanted nothing more than an end to oil (Greta Thunberg etc) and coal for that matter. He squashed the Keystone pipeline, ending jobs for Americans (and Canadians) taking our oil down south to Texas to be refined.

https://www.city-journal.org/bidens-keystone-xl-cancellation

Of course this meant that instead of a fairly safe method of transporting the oil, the riskier transport by rail (that was behind the CN railway deal that hit the news) https://financialpost.com/commoditi...ulf-coast-refineries-coming-from-cp-rail-deal or by tanker trucks, which routinely de rail or have accidents involving spills all the time. It would have been carbon neutral proving that carbon is not really why Biden and the environmental wing of the Democratic party are into global warming. It's about control.

So now you have oil prices going up, way up. The people that benefit are NOT the American oil workers or the Canucks for that matter. Nor the long suffering tax payers buying gas at the pump! The people who benefit from Biden's oil squashing policy are the Saudis (who don't trust Biden because he is friendly to their arch enemy Iran) and RUSSIA!

Good old mother Russia again. Back making money on oil. Because Biden is in office. If anyone thinks that Biden will interfere with Russian oil pipelines to Europe like Trump was doing, think again. https://www.cnbc.com/2021/03/09/nor...ispute-is-likely-to-go-from-bad-to-worse.html This article suggests that Biden will follow Trump's policy of opposition. I doubt Biden's State Dept is going to do much of anything to oppose this. I disagree with CNBC's conclusions, as I usually do, they are usually aimed in the wrong direction, I include the link just to show that nord stream 2 is nearly a done deal.

AND here's a third little thought that's been rolling around my brain lately.

Gomer and all her hordes. We see that in Ezek 38:6 as part of the invasion force. Some of Gomer is in Turkey more or less. But the ancient tribes that came from Gomer included the bands of nomads that settled Germany. Dr Arnold Fruchtenbaum mentions it, and I've seen it elsewhere.

Turkey, modern Turks are related to Germans in a far off way back connection. It's interesting that they are also connected to the tribes that migrated north into Russia.

So my thought is that we might see a further warming of ties between Germany and Russia and Germany and Turkey. I know, that is WAY OUT THERE. But it's crossed my mind.

If that is true then we have 3 nations that have historically persecuted and practised genocide on their Jewish populations (the Ottoman Turks, the Russians from the Czars down to the Communists and beyond, and the Germans) who would invade together with the other participants in the Ezek 38 invasion. And God would deal with them.

And if that is AFTER the Rapture (shortly after) there would be little to no Christians in any German, Turkish, Russian, Iranian army unit as God punishes these nations. It's another reason I think that it might be after the Rapture. Which would also explain why God says He does it to be KNOWN among the nations in verses 16 & 23. If we were still here, wouldn't we know Him already?
More good points.

Yes, I've seen the reversal of the "cold front", as it were, in US policy regarding Israel. The delayed call (by Harris, no less) to Netanyahu speaks volumes, in any regard. No doubt about it. Just so, I have zero doubt that Israel will hold and defend all so-called "occupied territories" that directly affect their defensive posture. The last article regarding negotiations was interesting, certainly as it relates to Russian influence in the region. But, it seems obvious that Assad doesn't control his own country, let alone Hezbollah or Iran. Frankly, I doubt Russia could keep them under control without significantly increasing their presence *ha, ha*.

As for Russia interests, obviously achieving (and protecting) higher oil prices is in their direct interest. The EU has an energy problem (as we do, long-term, with or without Biden's "green agenda", but I digress). The NS2 pipeline will further cement Russia's range of influence, especially with the Germans. Done deal? OK, I'll buy off on that. Whether they will find themselves in a position of needing to also (proactively) limit global supply is, for me, an open question....certainly a plausible outcome, moreso if they imagine that it could be achieved without our (US) blowback.

By the way, I've seen similar analyses which connect Germany, both with Gomer and Turkey, in the way you describe.

Like your closing thought too. Lots to mull over. Thinking more about the Gap issue and will be reviewing that nation table you dug up for me.
 

Wings Like Eagles

Well-Known Member
I'm sorry for my ignorance but if the Magog war starts before the tribulation what is the war (second seal) during the first half of the tribulation? Could that be a world (nuclear) war?
"Gog/Magog" is a generic term used by Jewish folk to refer to any conflict where the chosen people and/or Israel are attacked. "Gog" would be the leader and Magog would be his horde of followers. Ezekiel depicts that conflict in Ezekiel chapter 38, but that does not preclude other conflicts of the same type.
 
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sawas

Well-Known Member
I'm sorry for my ignorance but if the Magog war starts before the tribulation what is the war (second seal) during the first half of the tribulation? Could that be a world (nuclear) war?
You'll discover that there are a great many opinions about the war described in Ezekiel 38-39, including some highly regarded experts who would place it in the latter half of the Tribulation. You'll see a variety of those expressed throughout this (very long) thread. As noted by @Wings Like Eagles above, the reference of Rev 6: 3 appears to describe more-or-less "generic" (and widespread) conflict generated by the second (red) horseman. It seems possibly, if not likely, that these would occur in conjunction with the activities of the first (white) horseman immediately preceding, who many (me included) construe to be the Anti-Christ himself.

As for nuclear weapons being employed in Rev 6, it is certainly possible. But, to my understanding it seems quite likely to be part of the Gog/Magog war.

More trivia: As I recall, the demonic personage of Gog has also been discussed at length in this thread, so I won't try to repeat all of the various ideas about him, other than to note that the bible refers to him again at the final battle at the end of the MIllennium (in other words, well after his defeat in Ezekiel). As a side note, the Greek translation of Amos 7:1 apparently names Gog as the "king of the locusts", a reference not found in our English translations.

As noted above, Magog is understood to be an actual people who are described as the followers of Gog. From the various references in Ezekiel 38, both of these (Gog and Magog) are believed by some to be the descendants of those described 1 Chronicles chapters 1 and 5 (i.e. the son of Joel and the son of Japheth, respectively). However, due to the nature of the references to Gog, he is widely believed to be a demonic figure who's earthly territory are those northern territories settled by those descendants.
 

athenasius

Well-Known Member
I'm sorry for my ignorance but if the Magog war starts before the tribulation what is the war (second seal) during the first half of the tribulation? Could that be a world (nuclear) war?
@sawas and @Wings Like Eagles have said what I was thinking when I saw your question.

The wars of the Antichrist seem to happen on multiple points during the Trib. We know according to Daniel he eliminates 3 of the 10 kings or rulers and becomes the 8th in the midst. That has often made me think this might be regional wars against the areas of those kings. I've often thought that shortly after he appears (Seal 1) he does something to cause the war described in Seal 2 I've thought he maybe does his number on the 3 kings out of the 10 at that point.

My logic there holds only if the 10 kings appear first before the AC does, so you are free to ignore my random thought -- it's not a crucial point.

Finally even if the AC gets it all done via assassination and intrigue, wars happen on his 7 year watch and by the end of the Trib the battle of Armageddon takes place which is another of his wars-- it's the culmination of his efforts since the mid point of the Trib to exterminate the Jews.

This battle described in Ezek 38 has never yet happened, so it's yet future to our point of view. It can't be the same as Armageddon for reasons that Jack Kelley describes and we've covered right at the first page of this thread, so it looks like multiple serious wars happen after Ezek 38 even if the Jews have a period of peace in the first little while after that. (which allows the burning of weapons)
 

Wings Like Eagles

Well-Known Member
@sawas and @Wings Like Eagles have said what I was thinking when I saw your question.

The wars of the Antichrist seem to happen on multiple points during the Trib. We know according to Daniel he eliminates 3 of the 10 kings or rulers and becomes the 8th in the midst. That has often made me think this might be regional wars against the areas of those kings. I've often thought that shortly after he appears (Seal 1) he does something to cause the war described in Seal 2 I've thought he maybe does his number on the 3 kings out of the 10 at that point.

My logic there holds only if the 10 kings appear first before the AC does, so you are free to ignore my random thought -- it's not a crucial point.

Finally even if the AC gets it all done via assassination and intrigue, wars happen on his 7 year watch and by the end of the Trib the battle of Armageddon takes place which is another of his wars-- it's the culmination of his efforts since the mid point of the Trib to exterminate the Jews.

This battle described in Ezek 38 has never yet happened, so it's yet future to our point of view. It can't be the same as Armageddon for reasons that Jack Kelley describes and we've covered right at the first page of this thread, so it looks like multiple serious wars happen after Ezek 38 even if the Jews have a period of peace in the first little while after that. (which allows the burning of weapons)
It makes sense that the Ten Kings would appear before the Antichrist is revealed because Rev. 17:13 tells us that they cede their power and authority to the Antichrist. Seems like they would have to have some in order to give it over to the Antichrist.
 

ChildofLight

Well-Known Member
I’m baffled by Gog/Magog invading when the cities of Israel has no walls or gates. What gives them that much peace and security prior to being invaded? I presume it is after rapture and prior to tribulation due to the burning of weapons for 7 yrs.
 

sawas

Well-Known Member
I’m baffled by Gog/Magog invading when the cities of Israel has no walls or gates. What gives them that much peace and security prior to being invaded? I presume it is after rapture and prior to tribulation due to the burning of weapons for 7 yrs.
Yes, that's an interesting puzzle, one that features prominently in Bill Salus's Psalm 83 thesis. Likewise, those who are inclined to place the Gog/Magog war during the Tribulation period suggest it could only be facilitated by Israel's (false) confidence in the AC and his treaty.
 

ChildofLight

Well-Known Member
Yes, that's an interesting puzzle, one that features prominently in Bill Salus's Psalm 83 thesis. Likewise, those who are inclined to place the Gog/Magog war during the Tribulation period suggest it could only be facilitated by Israel's (false) confidence in the AC and his treaty.
The only thing is they burn weapons for 7 years for fuel unless there is a deal of some sort before treaty. I don’t think they will burn it the last 3 1/2 years as they have to make a sudden run to escape.
 

sawas

Well-Known Member
The only thing is they burn weapons for 7 years for fuel unless there is a deal of some sort before treaty. I don’t think they will burn it the last 3 1/2 years as they have to make a sudden run to escape.
That's one of the (various) reasons that I'm personally inclined to expect it prior to the Tribulation. Note: I seem to recall providing a critique earlier in this thread (or another?) of J. Dwight Pentacost's (and Andy Wood's) later - second half - Tribulation timing. That view has other issues that cast doubt on it for me as well.

ETA: Here - post #123 and post #124 seem to cover Pentecost and later posts #129 and #132 cover Andy Woods view.
 
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Thank you all who have offered me their opinions. Very interesting.
I don't really think I can construct a timeline of events with any definitive placement.
I'm just gong to have to concentrate on the events unfolding before my eyes. All the lawlessness, deception, natural disasters etc.
I do feel that the positioning of certain countries in the middle east is very exciting; I know that it wouldn't take much for a number of prophesies to be fulfilled.
 

athenasius

Well-Known Member
Thank you all who have offered me their opinions. Very interesting.
I don't really think I can construct a timeline of events with any definitive placement.
I'm just gong to have to concentrate on the events unfolding before my eyes. All the lawlessness, deception, natural disasters etc.
I do feel that the positioning of certain countries in the middle east is very exciting; I know that it wouldn't take much for a number of prophesies to be fulfilled.
I look at it all like a giant jigsaw puzzle laid out on the table before us. The edge pieces are in place and we have a picture of what it should look like (the Bible) but we see a bunch of different verses (jigsaw pieces) that might fit on the lower left or uppper right or somewhere beside that big bit in the middle (say Ezek 38).

We look at it, try different spots, finding other pieces that fit and make a smaller chunk of the puzzle but still not sure where that chunk goes.

I love it but it's a lifelong effort and the more you learn, the more you want to learn and the better it gets.
 

BlessedAssurance

New Member
I look at it all like a giant jigsaw puzzle laid out on the table before us. The edge pieces are in place and we have a picture of what it should look like (the Bible) but we see a bunch of different verses (jigsaw pieces) that might fit on the lower left or uppper right or somewhere beside that big bit in the middle (say Ezek 38).

We look at it, try different spots, finding other pieces that fit and make a smaller chunk of the puzzle but still not sure where that chunk goes.

I love it but it's a lifelong effort and the more you learn, the more you want to learn and the better it gets.
This is such a good analogy! I love that!
 

athenasius

Well-Known Member
I’m baffled by Gog/Magog invading when the cities of Israel has no walls or gates. What gives them that much peace and security prior to being invaded? I presume it is after rapture and prior to tribulation due to the burning of weapons for 7 yrs.

That is pretty much where I place it. I'll include a word study on the sense of Israel's safety.

Peace and security are the words Paul uses to describe what is on the lips of people at the time of the Rapture.

Ezekiel 38 describes a sense of safety from Israel's own confidence in their ability. It's a reckless self sufficiency. God challenges their beliefs by removing their ability to defend themselves against this sudden massive invasion, while their "allies" do nothing. Only God can save them. And that is part of their journey back to Him.

(The same type of wording occurs in the Destruction of Damascus in Isaiah 17 but there, God helps Israel to act and they defend themselves. Yet that too is part of their return to belief in their God)

The only thing is they burn weapons for 7 years for fuel unless there is a deal of some sort before treaty. I don’t think they will burn it the last 3 1/2 years as they have to make a sudden run to escape.
and this is one of the reasons why I agree with Sawas. It's an important point that suggests this might happen after the rapture, before the Tribulation and quite possibly a couple of years in advance.

About the walls and gates business. The cities and villages don't have walls. That wall that everyone looks at is a border fence between the West Bank and Israel proper, and the other one walling Gaza in. That is to keep the Palestinian terrorists from swarming in and harming Israelis. It is to protect Israel proper. It is a border.

But the cities and villages and kibbutzes don't usually have any walls. They already live within Israel in unwalled villages that don't have gates. The fences and gates are on the borders just as any country has to control who gets in and out. Inside Israel you can drive from one place to another until you come to a border area where Israel may own the land (like the West Bank) but there are fences up to protect the Israel area from the terrorists. A free zone within Israel proper.

Ezek 38:8 talks of Israel dwelling in safety (betach) ..in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.

H983 beṭach beh'-takh From H982; properly a place of refuge; abstractly safety, both the fact (security) and the feeling (trust); often (adverbially with or without preposition) safely: - assurance, boldly, (without) care (-less), confidence, hope, safe (-ly, -ty), secure, surely. H982 is the root and it has this meaning:
bâṭach baw-takh' A primitive root; properly to hie for refuge (but not so precipitately as H2620); figuratively to trust, be confident or sure: - be bold (confident, secure, sure), careless (one, woman), put confidence, (make to) hope, (put, make to) trust.

and that is a careless confidence, sure of their own ability to handle invaders. Which describes Israel today. It doesn't mean that there are no threats, it means that Israel is feeling assurance in their own ability to defend themselves. Which is why God makes sure they cant, and nobody can help them either. ONLY GOD can deliver them out of this invasion.

and Ezek 38:11 where it talks of the unwalled villages And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates,

Unwalled Villages: H6519 perâzâh
per-aw-zaw' From the same as H6518; an open country: - (unwalled) town (without walls), unwalled village.

In other words, Israel within her borders.

At Rest: H8252 shâqaṭ shaw-kat' A primitive root; to repose (usually figuratively): - appease, idleness, (at, be at, be in, give) quiet (-ness), (be at, be in, give, have, take) rest, settle, be still.

This means Israel is resting, not striving to survive.

ALL: H3605 kôl kôl kole, kole From H3634; properly the whole; hence all, any or every (in the singular only, but often in a plural sense): - (in) all (manner, [ye]), altogether, any (manner), enough, every (one, place, thing), howsoever, as many as, [no-] thing, ought, whatsoever, (the) whole, whoso (-ever). and H3634 is kâlal kaw-lal' A primitive root; to complete: - (make) perfect.

So Israel as a whole. That is important because we aren't talking borders, but within Israel proper.

Safely: same as above H983 beṭach beh'-takh From H982; properly a place of refuge; abstractly safety, both the fact (security) and the feeling (trust); often (adverbially with or without preposition) safely: - assurance, boldly, (without) care (-less), confidence, hope, safe (-ly, -ty), secure, surely. H982 bâṭach baw-takh' A primitive root; properly to hie for refuge (but not so precipitately as H2620); figuratively to trust, be confident or sure: - be bold (confident, secure, sure), careless (one, woman), put confidence, (make to) hope, (put, make to) trust.

Again, this means safety as a sense of careless ease. Having a careless sense of confidence. Not a lack of enemies, simply a confident attitude in their own abilities.

Without: H369 'ayin ay'-yin As if from a primitive root meaning to be nothing or not exist; a non-entity; generally used as a negative particle: - else, except, fail [father-] less, be gone, in [-curable], neither, never, no (where), none, nor (any, thing), not, nothing, to nought, past, un [-searchable], well-nigh, without,

This is repeated in the original text before walls, and again before bars and gates and it means these are unwalled, without bars or gates

Walls: H2346 chômâh kho-maw' Feminine active participle of an unused root apparently meaning to join; a wall of protection: - wall, walled.

Bars: H1280 berı̂yach ber-ee'-akh From H1272; a bolt: - bar, fugitive. and 1272 is this: bârach baw-rakh' A primitive root; to bolt, that is, figuratively to flee suddenly: - chase (away); drive away, fain, flee (away), put to flight, make haste, reach, run away, shoot.

Gates: H1817 deleth deh'-leth From H1802; something swinging, that is, the valve of a door: - door (two-leaved), gate, leaf, lid. [In Psa 141:3, dal, irreg.] and H1802 is this: dâlâh daw-law' A primitive root (compare H1809); properly to dangle, that is, to let down a bucket (for drawing out water); figuratively to deliver: - draw (out), X enough, lift up. H1809 simply means to diminish or become feeble so the roots aren't as important as the H1817 deleth for gates.
 
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athenasius

Well-Known Member
I was thinking about this some more, and what really struck me is that contrast I mentioned above.
Ezekiel 38 describes a sense of safety from Israel's own confidence in their ability. It's a reckless self sufficiency. God challenges their beliefs by removing their ability to defend themselves against this sudden massive invasion, while their "allies" do nothing. Only God can save them. And that is part of their journey back to Him.

(The same type of wording occurs in the Destruction of Damascus in Isaiah 17 but there, God helps Israel to act and they defend themselves. Yet that too is part of their return to belief in their God)

In both these passages, God speaks thru His prophets Ezekiel and Isaiah about a time of turning again to God, being made known among His own people, (and also the nations).

But it is really striking my eye how in Isaiah 17 (Destruction of Damascus passage --not the only one in the Bible btw) God uses an attempted invasion by Syria/Damascus in which they try to take spoil or steal from Israel. Vs 14 says this
14 In the evening, sudden terror!
Before the morning, they are gone!
This is the portion of those who loot us,
the lot of those who plunder us
.

Verse 9 explains how this happens-- it is the Israelites (the IDF) or the children of Israel as some translations give it that do the destruction
9 In that day their strong cities, which they left because of the Israelites, will be like places abandoned to thickets and undergrowth. And all will be desolation.

And somehow in this Israel begins to turn to God
V 7 In that day people will look to their Maker
and turn their eyes to the Holy One of Israel.

Whom they had abandoned as Vs 10-11 explains and notice this is addressed to Israel God YOUR Saviour, YOUR fortress. As the last half of v 10 and all of 11 explain, there were imported vines- fine plants they set out to make them grow. But the harvest is nothing in the day of disease and incurable pain. The context of this passage includes serious damage to Israel, while Damascus is completely obliterated. As I've thought about this, I've wondered about these vines, these imported plants that were set out to grow, that should provide a harvest for Israel. I keep thinking of peace plans and agreements that are foreign based, like the UN, the EU, the Accords, the Oslo agreement, all these things that promise protection to Israel but provide nothing.

V10 You have forgotten God your Savior;
you have not remembered the Rock, your fortress.

Therefore, though you set out the finest plants
and plant imported vines,
11 though on the day you set them out, you make them grow,
and on the morning when you plant them, you bring them to bud,
yet the harvest will be as nothing
in the day of disease and incurable pain.

So the contrasts in Isaiah 17 teach us a lot about what is happening.

The biggest one that I'm focused on today is the way God is allowing Israel to try making agreements or plans (vines and plants that they hope will bear a good harvest). Because the context is war, I don't think these vines etc are trade agreements. I used to wonder about other religions establishing footholds in Israel like the Catholic church and the Orthodox church and Islam's many sites on top of Israel's holiest sites. Now I think these refer to peace agreements that fail.

But Israel wins out even though at a serious cost.

And God is turning them back to HIM. (one of the reasons I wonder if we the church will still be here to see it)

Even so, Israel is just beginning to turn to God and the temptation perhaps at this point, like in the past would be to look to their army as the ones that carried them thru and saved them.

Next lets look at that thru Ezekiel 38 &39

This time God doesn't let them even TRY to do any self defence. Their IDF is NOT involved in protecting them AT ALL. This time it is 100% GOD's doing, no other explanation is allowable. A mighty invasion force sweeps in and in a day God has destroyed them. They fall on the mountains of Israel which range from Northern Israel by the Golan down thru the spine of Israel as the mountain range runs along the Eastern edge of the Jordan River Valley.

This time in the Ezekiel invasion, they are living in careless security, without fear, relying on their own ability and strength. And this invasion sweeps in. So fast, like a storm. I did a word study on that to help with the understanding of horses here but I got into the words used to describe how the enemy comes in, the speed, the overwhelming force etc. https://www.raptureforums.com/forum...er-division-august-2013-article.168728/page-2 and I started with post #35 if anyone is interested in following that up to see just how this invasion is described.

God is allowing them this time to have absolutely NO confidence in their own ability.

He removes all possibility this time for anyone in Israel to even consider that it was their own strength.

God is using contrasts again to teach Israel just WHO is in charge here, and it certainly isn't the IDF, or their peace agreements or other nations who are friendly.

This time even though there are some friendly nations (sort of) all they seem willing or able to do is mouth a weak question to Russia, Have You Come for Spoil????? Israel is already forming those agreements now with the Abraham Accords and perhaps in the aftermath of the destruction of Damascus that gets firmed up further. Israel isn't yet finished with relying on other nations rather than turning to God. But here in Ezekiel, these fail them completely.

Just look at how this chapter begins. Israel dwelling in careless confidence. God putting a hook in the jaw of Russia and the allies to sweep down into Israel. Suddenly.


But it ain't over yet even when they begin burying their enemies and burning the weapons.

Because the next opportunity they get (if my time line is correct) will be to make their covenant with Death and Hades as the Bible calls it. The overwhelming scourge. The covenant with the Antichrist.

And this is their third and final lesson.

Because that ends mid way thru the Tribulation when the AC shows his true colours and the Abomination of Desolation occurs which opens most Israeli Jews eyes to the truth of who this is. They flee to Petra and by the end of the Tribulation their leaders cry out to Christ Jesus their Messiah to come and SAVE THEM.


I see it as a 3 part system of wakening the Jews out of their partial hardness towards God's own Son their Messiah and deliverer. As Paul says in Romans 11 but I will quote vs 25-27
25 For I do not want you, brothers and sisters, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; 26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written:

“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
He will remove ungodliness from Jacob.”
27 “This is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

I see it as a process, that begins with Isaiah and ends with the Millennial Kingdom of King Jesus who will save all of Israel in the Day of His Appearing at the end of the Tribulation. They will have breath in them finally as a nation, and they will forever serve HIM. As will we who love Him and form the church soon to be Raptured out of here.
 
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