Almost Heaven
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yes Adrien is a PastorIs our Adrian a pastor? I still don't know many of you well, yet. Forgive the ignorance.
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yes Adrien is a PastorIs our Adrian a pastor? I still don't know many of you well, yet. Forgive the ignorance.
I like ol' Gary. Such a sweet, jolly man. The theology and love for the rapture helps, too. Ha!
yes Adrien is a Pastor
Immediately I thought of Led Zeppelin.Well, hot dog! I didn't know. Thank you.
Brace for confusion and murk. If you or anybody else wants to play with this jigsaw puzzle I’m all ears.
I don’t fully rule out the destruction of Damascus being a trigger to the Ezekiel 38 war.
The reason I say that still might be related is there is one spot in Isaiah 17: 7-8. It says in that day man will have regard for his maker and his eyes will look to the holy one of Israel. He will not have regard for the altars, the work of his hands, nor will he look to that which his fingers have made, even the Asherim and incense stands.
When you see that kind of wording it suggests that Israel is starting to turn towards God and that is the purpose of Ezekiel 38&39 as well as the Tribulation. So if we use the dispensational principle (that a lot of prophecy teachers use) that God’s program is either on the church or on Israel then we are looking at a period of time when the church is absent or that we are very close to the rapture.
As for the psalm 83 thesis of Bill Salus yes I think there is a STRONG connection.
3 passages that seem connected. Isaiah 17, Jeremiah 49 & the LAST HALF of Ezekiel 32. Plus Amos 1:3-5 and Zechariah 9:1-8. I’m using Damascus as my key. Isaiah 17 deals with the destruction of Damascus as well as Jeremiah. Jeremiah also deals with the destruction of Elam and Damascus. Ezekiel 32 has the destruction of Elam as well as a number of Psalm 83 combatants.
so Ezekiel 32:17-32 is my connection to the Psalm 83.
CAUTION: first off before running with this I should caution that I do NOT know if these were fulfilled in the past in someway that prevents them being connected just by being neighbours in Jeremiah 49, and repeating the destruction of Damascus & Elam. (South western Iran, shores of the Persian Gulf). So I may be using puzzle pieces that belong to some other prophetic picture by accident.
They do seem to connect the destruction of Damascus in Jeremiah 49 versus 23 through 27 with the destruction of the area of Iran called Elam. Verses 34-39.
and they might well BOTH be fulfilled in the tribulation. During the wars of the antichrist.
Read Ezekiel 32:17-32. That passage seems related to the passage in Jeremiah 49. You will see Elam mentioned in both. And in the Ezekiel passage it gives the reason for the destruction. It is terrorism. I got onto this passage through Bill Salus....
if Ezekiel is the key that holds the whole thing together then it’s a possibility that the destruction of the area of Iran called Elam and Damascus are related to terrorism that somehow manages to involve Egypt and Jordan in some war that begins over terrorism.
Yet the Damascus passages which also include Amos 1:3-5 and Zechariah 9:1-8 are about plunder— and that is similar to Ezekiel 38 again. Along with the way it’s worded about God using the events to turn Israel back to Him. And they also mention Gaza & Lebanon via the Tyre & Sidon mentions.
Once I took Ezekiel 32 as the key- the other nations mentioned next to Damascus & Elam look an awful lot like Bill Salus’s Psalm 83 players.
Ps 83 | Is 17 | Jer 49 | Zech 9:1-8 | Ez 32:17-32 | Ez 38-39 | |
To the North | ||||||
Syria | X | |||||
Damascus | X | X | ||||
Hamath (city in west central Syria) | X | X | ||||
Arpad (City in NW Syria) | X | |||||
Phoenician States | ||||||
Gebal (Lebanon) | X | |||||
Tyre (Lebanon) | X | X | ||||
Sidon (Lebanon) | X | X | ||||
Assyria (extending into W. Iraq) | X | X | ||||
Elam (Persia/Iran) | X | X | X | |||
Gog - Prince of Rosh, Meshech, Tubal | X | |||||
Meshech & Tubal (Turkey?) | X | X | ||||
Togarmah (Anatolia) | X | |||||
Inside (Modern) Israel / Canaan | ||||||
Ephraim | X | |||||
Kishon | X | |||||
En-dor (Galilee) | X | |||||
Hazor (Upper Galilee) | X | |||||
Jabin (King of Hazor) | X | |||||
Sisera (Commander of King Jabin of Hazor) | X | |||||
Ashkelon ? | X | |||||
Asdod ? | X | |||||
Philistia (inc. Gaza) | X | X | ||||
Ai (Canaan, West Bank) | X | |||||
Amalek (Sons of Esau) Southern Canaan | X | |||||
Ekron (SW Canaan) | X | |||||
To the East | ||||||
Ammon | X | X | ||||
Rabbah (Amonite city) | X | |||||
Heshbon (Ammonite/Jordan) | X | |||||
Moab (South of Ammon) | X | |||||
Aroer (or possible alternate area near to Damascus?) | X | |||||
To the South | ||||||
Edom (Transjordan) immediately south of Judah | X | X | X | |||
Teman (Edomite clan at Petra) | X | |||||
Dedan (wandering people of Arabia, with t/w Sheba) | X | Observer | ||||
Esau (projenitor of the Edomites) | X | |||||
Bozrah (Jordan city, north Edom) | X | |||||
Ishmaelites (North/NW Arabia) | X | |||||
Hagrites (Sons of Agar, associated with Ishmaelites | X | |||||
Kedar (wandering tribe of Arabia? | X | |||||
Midian (NW Arabia) | X | |||||
Oreb & Zeeb (Midianite Princes) | X | |||||
Zebah & Zalmunna (Midianite Kings) | X | |||||
Egypt | X | |||||
Etheopia | X | |||||
Put (Libya) | X |
I like this chart. Is it all right if I copy it for my own use?
That is ABSOLUTELY WONDERFUL AND THANK YOU! Very very helpful. I’m having some health problems so I might be late in answering but this is outstanding. Thank you.As noted in the prior post, these are the peoples and locations identified for judgement/destruction in the discussed passages. Also added those in Ezekiel 38 for contrast. To the best of my ability, they are organized geographically.
Obviously, these are open for discussion, suggested revisions, et al.
Ps 83 Is 17 Jer 49 Zech 9:1-8 Ez 32:17-32 Ez 38-39To the North Syria X Damascus X X Hamath (city in west central Syria) X X Arpad (City in NW Syria) XPhoenician States Gebal (Lebanon) X Tyre (Lebanon) X X Sidon (Lebanon) X XAssyria (extending into W. Iraq) X XElam (Persia/Iran) X X XGog - Prince of Rosh, Meshech, Tubal X Meshech & Tubal (Turkey?) X X Togarmah (Anatolia) XInside (Modern) Israel / Canaan Ephraim X Kishon X En-dor (Galilee) X Hazor (Upper Galilee) X Jabin (King of Hazor) X Sisera (Commander of King Jabin of Hazor) X Ashkelon ? X Asdod ? XPhilistia (inc. Gaza) X X Ai (Canaan, West Bank) X Amalek (Sons of Esau) Southern Canaan X Ekron (SW Canaan) XTo the East Ammon X X Rabbah (Amonite city) X Heshbon (Ammonite/Jordan) XMoab (South of Ammon) X Aroer XTo the South Edom (Transjordan) immediately south of Judah X X X Teman (Edomite clan at Petra) X Dedan (wandering people of Arabia, with t/w Sheba) X Observer Esau (projenitor of the Edomites) X Bozrah (Jordan city, north Edom) XIshmaelites (North/NW Arabia) X Hagrites (Sons of Agar, associated with Ishmaelites X Kedar (wandering tribe of Arabia? X Midian (NW Arabia) X Oreb & Zeeb (Midianite Princes) X Zebah & Zalmunna (Midianite Kings) XEgypt XEtheopia XPut (Libya) X
Thank you.Please, feel free. Also, do let me know if you find anything that needs correction.
That is ABSOLUTELY WONDERFUL AND THANK YOU! Very very helpful. I’m having some health problems so I might be late in answering but this is outstanding. Thank you.
Rev 20 7-9
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
So this battle is after the 1000 year reign of Christ
@athenasius - I'm still struggling for context related to two prior phrases "the glory of the children of Israel" and "the glory of Jacob" (Isaiah 17:3-4). This was, in part, the reason I'd earlier expressed curiosity about how some of this might be related to the Northern/Southern Kingdom divisions. Clearly, the Ephraim reference of Isaiah 17:3 would provide additional support. Either way, the following references to "gleaning grapes", et al, - which precedes your area of focus - makes me wonder about remnants of the Northern Kingdom being in the mix and who might be subject to the impulse to turn to "the holy one of Israel".
In regard to your other point (that such would logically occur only after the church would be removed), that makes some sense to me as well.
General Question - Who, in your opinion, is the "he" in the last verse? (Isaiah 17:14).
Edit Note - Also, in regard to issues relating to the Northern Kingdom, I spent a little time looking at how these passages (Psalm 83, Isaiah 17, Jeremiah 49, Zechariah 9) appear to pertain to geographies that (more-or-less) conform to Isreal's biblical boundaries. Of course, Salus has previously noted the obvious proximity of these combatants, but it seems curious and possible that these conflicts relate to a fulfillment of God's promise to Israel regarding the whole of their territory. Just throwing that out for consideration.
Your table is EXCELLENT and I find it VERY helpful to see at a glance.OK, this is the part that's been causing much of my delay. I'm not entirely certain that I've digested it all, but here are a few thoughts.
(Note: in a subsequent post, I'll attempt to provide a table showing the people and places noted in each of these passages.).
- Ezekiel 32:17-32 appears (to my reading) to be a "post-game wrap-up" of sorts...perhaps almost an epitaph for Egypt, representing a (more-or-less) complete listing of those with the common fate of Sheol (the grave, the pit). These include victims from what, from what I've been accustomed to think, would include Ez 38/39 and (presumably prior events of) Psalm 83.
- To your (anyone's) knowledge, is there a prophecy related to the final destruction of Egypt?
- The Assyrian presence in Psalm 83 and Ezekiel 32:17-32 along with Elam in Jeremiah 49 and Ezekiel 32:17-32 appear also to "blur" the distinction with Ezekiel 38. These northern places extend eastward, ostensibly, into Persia/Iran. Still evaluating that.
- Observation - Most of the places noted in Zech 9:1 lie within the (biblical) boundaries of Israel. These would include the northern areas of Phoenicia/Lebanon, Ephraim (inside modern Israel), and Philistia/Gaza/So. Canaan.
Yes, I (too) want to take care that we're only dealing with unfulfilled prophesy here, another reason for some of my delay. As noted above, I share the same (potential) confusion regarding Elam. Let's save this for future discussion.
Yes, final destruction of Egypt IS in the Bible, but it's a 40 year disaster, not final doom sort of thing. it's the Tower of Syene that Gary Stearman talks about here https://prophecywatchers.com/the-tower-of-syene-a-prophetic-wonder/ and that looks like it might be in the Tribulation period. Egypt survives and thrives in the Millennial Reign of Christ. Ken Johnson always uses the destruction of the Nile river as his snappy comeback to anyone suggesting we are in the Tribulation asking them if the Nile has run dry yet. Gary sheds light on just how that might happen.Yes, this would clear up some of the confusion I expressed above. How (and when) is Egypt involved exactly?
We'll see if my table can be presented in the following post...perhaps that will illuminate this.
@cavalier973 Apologies for sidetracking your wonderful thread.
As noted in the prior post, these are the peoples and locations identified for judgement/destruction in the discussed passages. Also added those in Ezekiel 38 for contrast. To the best of my ability, they are organized geographically.
Obviously, these are open for discussion, suggested revisions, et al.
Ps 83 Is 17 Jer 49 Zech 9:1-8 Ez 32:17-32 Ez 38-39To the North Syria X Damascus X X Hamath (city in west central Syria) X X Arpad (City in NW Syria) XPhoenician States Gebal (Lebanon) X Tyre (Lebanon) X X Sidon (Lebanon) X XAssyria (extending into W. Iraq) X XElam (Persia/Iran) X X XGog - Prince of Rosh, Meshech, Tubal X Meshech & Tubal (Turkey?) X X Togarmah (Anatolia) XInside (Modern) Israel / Canaan Ephraim X Kishon X En-dor (Galilee) X Hazor (Upper Galilee) X Jabin (King of Hazor) X Sisera (Commander of King Jabin of Hazor) X Ashkelon ? X Asdod ? XPhilistia (inc. Gaza) X X Ai (Canaan, West Bank) X Amalek (Sons of Esau) Southern Canaan X Ekron (SW Canaan) XTo the East Ammon X X Rabbah (Amonite city) X Heshbon (Ammonite/Jordan) XMoab (South of Ammon) X Aroer XTo the South Edom (Transjordan) immediately south of Judah X X X Teman (Edomite clan at Petra) X Dedan (wandering people of Arabia, with t/w Sheba) X Observer Esau (projenitor of the Edomites) X Bozrah (Jordan city, north Edom) XIshmaelites (North/NW Arabia) X Hagrites (Sons of Agar, associated with Ishmaelites X Kedar (wandering tribe of Arabia? X Midian (NW Arabia) X Oreb & Zeeb (Midianite Princes) X Zebah & Zalmunna (Midianite Kings) XEgypt XEtheopia XPut (Libya) X
Personally I see Damascus destruction and Gog and Magog as two separate events - The word ruin is translated from the Hebrew word "Mappalah" which according to Strong’s is only used 3 times in the bible all by Isaiah. The word just mean make a ruin and if one observes the word according to the context it appears to mean piles of rubble like when a building or city wall is destroyed. Contextually only the Assyrians can be responsible for making Damascus a ruinous heap in Isaiah 17. So we now need to know who were the Assyrians - Assyria was the region located in the ancient Near East which, under the Neo-Assyrian Empire, reached from Mesopotamia (modern-day Iraq) through Asia Minor (modern Turkey) and down through Egypt. Russia is not part of Assyria but is part of Magog, hence two completely separate events.
With Russia and Turkey attacking each other I look for Russia to pull out most of it's military soon since the conflict is very unpopular with the Russian citizenry and Putin popularity is going downhill because of Syria. Russia needs the Turkey Pipeline to go through so Russia can send it's natural gas across Turkey to Europe. So I believe Russia will back off leaving Turkey to deal with Syria. The two countries, rival empires since the 16th century and adversaries in multiple wars in the 19th century, have in recent years shown a capacity for brinkmanship followed by de-escalation. Russia has also sold S-400 Air Defense system to Turkey which upset NATO since Turkey is a part of NATO.