Gog-Magog invasion timing

athenasius

Well-Known Member
I'm sorry for my ignorance but if the Magog war starts before the tribulation what is the war (second seal) during the first half of the tribulation? Could that be a world (nuclear) war?
@sawas and @Wings Like Eagles have said what I was thinking when I saw your question.

The wars of the Antichrist seem to happen on multiple points during the Trib. We know according to Daniel he eliminates 3 of the 10 kings or rulers and becomes the 8th in the midst. That has often made me think this might be regional wars against the areas of those kings. I've often thought that shortly after he appears (Seal 1) he does something to cause the war described in Seal 2 I've thought he maybe does his number on the 3 kings out of the 10 at that point.

My logic there holds only if the 10 kings appear first before the AC does, so you are free to ignore my random thought -- it's not a crucial point.

Finally even if the AC gets it all done via assassination and intrigue, wars happen on his 7 year watch and by the end of the Trib the battle of Armageddon takes place which is another of his wars-- it's the culmination of his efforts since the mid point of the Trib to exterminate the Jews.

This battle described in Ezek 38 has never yet happened, so it's yet future to our point of view. It can't be the same as Armageddon for reasons that Jack Kelley describes and we've covered right at the first page of this thread, so it looks like multiple serious wars happen after Ezek 38 even if the Jews have a period of peace in the first little while after that. (which allows the burning of weapons)
 

Wings Like Eagles

Well-Known Member
@sawas and @Wings Like Eagles have said what I was thinking when I saw your question.

The wars of the Antichrist seem to happen on multiple points during the Trib. We know according to Daniel he eliminates 3 of the 10 kings or rulers and becomes the 8th in the midst. That has often made me think this might be regional wars against the areas of those kings. I've often thought that shortly after he appears (Seal 1) he does something to cause the war described in Seal 2 I've thought he maybe does his number on the 3 kings out of the 10 at that point.

My logic there holds only if the 10 kings appear first before the AC does, so you are free to ignore my random thought -- it's not a crucial point.

Finally even if the AC gets it all done via assassination and intrigue, wars happen on his 7 year watch and by the end of the Trib the battle of Armageddon takes place which is another of his wars-- it's the culmination of his efforts since the mid point of the Trib to exterminate the Jews.

This battle described in Ezek 38 has never yet happened, so it's yet future to our point of view. It can't be the same as Armageddon for reasons that Jack Kelley describes and we've covered right at the first page of this thread, so it looks like multiple serious wars happen after Ezek 38 even if the Jews have a period of peace in the first little while after that. (which allows the burning of weapons)
It makes sense that the Ten Kings would appear before the Antichrist is revealed because Rev. 17:13 tells us that they cede their power and authority to the Antichrist. Seems like they would have to have some in order to give it over to the Antichrist.
 

ChildofLight

Well-Known Member
I’m baffled by Gog/Magog invading when the cities of Israel has no walls or gates. What gives them that much peace and security prior to being invaded? I presume it is after rapture and prior to tribulation due to the burning of weapons for 7 yrs.
 

sawas

Well-Known Member
I’m baffled by Gog/Magog invading when the cities of Israel has no walls or gates. What gives them that much peace and security prior to being invaded? I presume it is after rapture and prior to tribulation due to the burning of weapons for 7 yrs.
Yes, that's an interesting puzzle, one that features prominently in Bill Salus's Psalm 83 thesis. Likewise, those who are inclined to place the Gog/Magog war during the Tribulation period suggest it could only be facilitated by Israel's (false) confidence in the AC and his treaty.
 

ChildofLight

Well-Known Member
Yes, that's an interesting puzzle, one that features prominently in Bill Salus's Psalm 83 thesis. Likewise, those who are inclined to place the Gog/Magog war during the Tribulation period suggest it could only be facilitated by Israel's (false) confidence in the AC and his treaty.
The only thing is they burn weapons for 7 years for fuel unless there is a deal of some sort before treaty. I don’t think they will burn it the last 3 1/2 years as they have to make a sudden run to escape.
 

sawas

Well-Known Member
The only thing is they burn weapons for 7 years for fuel unless there is a deal of some sort before treaty. I don’t think they will burn it the last 3 1/2 years as they have to make a sudden run to escape.
That's one of the (various) reasons that I'm personally inclined to expect it prior to the Tribulation. Note: I seem to recall providing a critique earlier in this thread (or another?) of J. Dwight Pentacost's (and Andy Wood's) later - second half - Tribulation timing. That view has other issues that cast doubt on it for me as well.

ETA: Here - post #123 and post #124 seem to cover Pentecost and later posts #129 and #132 cover Andy Woods view.
 
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newtofaith

Well-Known Member
Thank you all who have offered me their opinions. Very interesting.
I don't really think I can construct a timeline of events with any definitive placement.
I'm just gong to have to concentrate on the events unfolding before my eyes. All the lawlessness, deception, natural disasters etc.
I do feel that the positioning of certain countries in the middle east is very exciting; I know that it wouldn't take much for a number of prophesies to be fulfilled.
 

athenasius

Well-Known Member
Thank you all who have offered me their opinions. Very interesting.
I don't really think I can construct a timeline of events with any definitive placement.
I'm just gong to have to concentrate on the events unfolding before my eyes. All the lawlessness, deception, natural disasters etc.
I do feel that the positioning of certain countries in the middle east is very exciting; I know that it wouldn't take much for a number of prophesies to be fulfilled.
I look at it all like a giant jigsaw puzzle laid out on the table before us. The edge pieces are in place and we have a picture of what it should look like (the Bible) but we see a bunch of different verses (jigsaw pieces) that might fit on the lower left or uppper right or somewhere beside that big bit in the middle (say Ezek 38).

We look at it, try different spots, finding other pieces that fit and make a smaller chunk of the puzzle but still not sure where that chunk goes.

I love it but it's a lifelong effort and the more you learn, the more you want to learn and the better it gets.
 

BlessedAssurance

Well-Known Member
I look at it all like a giant jigsaw puzzle laid out on the table before us. The edge pieces are in place and we have a picture of what it should look like (the Bible) but we see a bunch of different verses (jigsaw pieces) that might fit on the lower left or uppper right or somewhere beside that big bit in the middle (say Ezek 38).

We look at it, try different spots, finding other pieces that fit and make a smaller chunk of the puzzle but still not sure where that chunk goes.

I love it but it's a lifelong effort and the more you learn, the more you want to learn and the better it gets.
This is such a good analogy! I love that!
 

athenasius

Well-Known Member
I’m baffled by Gog/Magog invading when the cities of Israel has no walls or gates. What gives them that much peace and security prior to being invaded? I presume it is after rapture and prior to tribulation due to the burning of weapons for 7 yrs.

That is pretty much where I place it. I'll include a word study on the sense of Israel's safety.

Peace and security are the words Paul uses to describe what is on the lips of people at the time of the Rapture.

Ezekiel 38 describes a sense of safety from Israel's own confidence in their ability. It's a reckless self sufficiency. God challenges their beliefs by removing their ability to defend themselves against this sudden massive invasion, while their "allies" do nothing. Only God can save them. And that is part of their journey back to Him.

(The same type of wording occurs in the Destruction of Damascus in Isaiah 17 but there, God helps Israel to act and they defend themselves. Yet that too is part of their return to belief in their God)

The only thing is they burn weapons for 7 years for fuel unless there is a deal of some sort before treaty. I don’t think they will burn it the last 3 1/2 years as they have to make a sudden run to escape.
and this is one of the reasons why I agree with Sawas. It's an important point that suggests this might happen after the rapture, before the Tribulation and quite possibly a couple of years in advance.

About the walls and gates business. The cities and villages don't have walls. That wall that everyone looks at is a border fence between the West Bank and Israel proper, and the other one walling Gaza in. That is to keep the Palestinian terrorists from swarming in and harming Israelis. It is to protect Israel proper. It is a border.

But the cities and villages and kibbutzes don't usually have any walls. They already live within Israel in unwalled villages that don't have gates. The fences and gates are on the borders just as any country has to control who gets in and out. Inside Israel you can drive from one place to another until you come to a border area where Israel may own the land (like the West Bank) but there are fences up to protect the Israel area from the terrorists. A free zone within Israel proper.

Ezek 38:8 talks of Israel dwelling in safety (betach) ..in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.

H983 beṭach beh'-takh From H982; properly a place of refuge; abstractly safety, both the fact (security) and the feeling (trust); often (adverbially with or without preposition) safely: - assurance, boldly, (without) care (-less), confidence, hope, safe (-ly, -ty), secure, surely. H982 is the root and it has this meaning:
bâṭach baw-takh' A primitive root; properly to hie for refuge (but not so precipitately as H2620); figuratively to trust, be confident or sure: - be bold (confident, secure, sure), careless (one, woman), put confidence, (make to) hope, (put, make to) trust.

and that is a careless confidence, sure of their own ability to handle invaders. Which describes Israel today. It doesn't mean that there are no threats, it means that Israel is feeling assurance in their own ability to defend themselves. Which is why God makes sure they cant, and nobody can help them either. ONLY GOD can deliver them out of this invasion.

and Ezek 38:11 where it talks of the unwalled villages And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates,

Unwalled Villages: H6519 perâzâh
per-aw-zaw' From the same as H6518; an open country: - (unwalled) town (without walls), unwalled village.

In other words, Israel within her borders.

At Rest: H8252 shâqaṭ shaw-kat' A primitive root; to repose (usually figuratively): - appease, idleness, (at, be at, be in, give) quiet (-ness), (be at, be in, give, have, take) rest, settle, be still.

This means Israel is resting, not striving to survive.

ALL: H3605 kôl kôl kole, kole From H3634; properly the whole; hence all, any or every (in the singular only, but often in a plural sense): - (in) all (manner, [ye]), altogether, any (manner), enough, every (one, place, thing), howsoever, as many as, [no-] thing, ought, whatsoever, (the) whole, whoso (-ever). and H3634 is kâlal kaw-lal' A primitive root; to complete: - (make) perfect.

So Israel as a whole. That is important because we aren't talking borders, but within Israel proper.

Safely: same as above H983 beṭach beh'-takh From H982; properly a place of refuge; abstractly safety, both the fact (security) and the feeling (trust); often (adverbially with or without preposition) safely: - assurance, boldly, (without) care (-less), confidence, hope, safe (-ly, -ty), secure, surely. H982 bâṭach baw-takh' A primitive root; properly to hie for refuge (but not so precipitately as H2620); figuratively to trust, be confident or sure: - be bold (confident, secure, sure), careless (one, woman), put confidence, (make to) hope, (put, make to) trust.

Again, this means safety as a sense of careless ease. Having a careless sense of confidence. Not a lack of enemies, simply a confident attitude in their own abilities.

Without: H369 'ayin ay'-yin As if from a primitive root meaning to be nothing or not exist; a non-entity; generally used as a negative particle: - else, except, fail [father-] less, be gone, in [-curable], neither, never, no (where), none, nor (any, thing), not, nothing, to nought, past, un [-searchable], well-nigh, without,

This is repeated in the original text before walls, and again before bars and gates and it means these are unwalled, without bars or gates

Walls: H2346 chômâh kho-maw' Feminine active participle of an unused root apparently meaning to join; a wall of protection: - wall, walled.

Bars: H1280 berı̂yach ber-ee'-akh From H1272; a bolt: - bar, fugitive. and 1272 is this: bârach baw-rakh' A primitive root; to bolt, that is, figuratively to flee suddenly: - chase (away); drive away, fain, flee (away), put to flight, make haste, reach, run away, shoot.

Gates: H1817 deleth deh'-leth From H1802; something swinging, that is, the valve of a door: - door (two-leaved), gate, leaf, lid. [In Psa 141:3, dal, irreg.] and H1802 is this: dâlâh daw-law' A primitive root (compare H1809); properly to dangle, that is, to let down a bucket (for drawing out water); figuratively to deliver: - draw (out), X enough, lift up. H1809 simply means to diminish or become feeble so the roots aren't as important as the H1817 deleth for gates.
 
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athenasius

Well-Known Member
I was thinking about this some more, and what really struck me is that contrast I mentioned above.
Ezekiel 38 describes a sense of safety from Israel's own confidence in their ability. It's a reckless self sufficiency. God challenges their beliefs by removing their ability to defend themselves against this sudden massive invasion, while their "allies" do nothing. Only God can save them. And that is part of their journey back to Him.

(The same type of wording occurs in the Destruction of Damascus in Isaiah 17 but there, God helps Israel to act and they defend themselves. Yet that too is part of their return to belief in their God)

In both these passages, God speaks thru His prophets Ezekiel and Isaiah about a time of turning again to God, being made known among His own people, (and also the nations).

But it is really striking my eye how in Isaiah 17 (Destruction of Damascus passage --not the only one in the Bible btw) God uses an attempted invasion by Syria/Damascus in which they try to take spoil or steal from Israel. Vs 14 says this
14 In the evening, sudden terror!
Before the morning, they are gone!
This is the portion of those who loot us,
the lot of those who plunder us
.

Verse 9 explains how this happens-- it is the Israelites (the IDF) or the children of Israel as some translations give it that do the destruction
9 In that day their strong cities, which they left because of the Israelites, will be like places abandoned to thickets and undergrowth. And all will be desolation.

And somehow in this Israel begins to turn to God
V 7 In that day people will look to their Maker
and turn their eyes to the Holy One of Israel.

Whom they had abandoned as Vs 10-11 explains and notice this is addressed to Israel God YOUR Saviour, YOUR fortress. As the last half of v 10 and all of 11 explain, there were imported vines- fine plants they set out to make them grow. But the harvest is nothing in the day of disease and incurable pain. The context of this passage includes serious damage to Israel, while Damascus is completely obliterated. As I've thought about this, I've wondered about these vines, these imported plants that were set out to grow, that should provide a harvest for Israel. I keep thinking of peace plans and agreements that are foreign based, like the UN, the EU, the Accords, the Oslo agreement, all these things that promise protection to Israel but provide nothing.

V10 You have forgotten God your Savior;
you have not remembered the Rock, your fortress.

Therefore, though you set out the finest plants
and plant imported vines,
11 though on the day you set them out, you make them grow,
and on the morning when you plant them, you bring them to bud,
yet the harvest will be as nothing
in the day of disease and incurable pain.

So the contrasts in Isaiah 17 teach us a lot about what is happening.

The biggest one that I'm focused on today is the way God is allowing Israel to try making agreements or plans (vines and plants that they hope will bear a good harvest). Because the context is war, I don't think these vines etc are trade agreements. I used to wonder about other religions establishing footholds in Israel like the Catholic church and the Orthodox church and Islam's many sites on top of Israel's holiest sites. Now I think these refer to peace agreements that fail.

But Israel wins out even though at a serious cost.

And God is turning them back to HIM. (one of the reasons I wonder if we the church will still be here to see it)

Even so, Israel is just beginning to turn to God and the temptation perhaps at this point, like in the past would be to look to their army as the ones that carried them thru and saved them.

Next lets look at that thru Ezekiel 38 &39

This time God doesn't let them even TRY to do any self defence. Their IDF is NOT involved in protecting them AT ALL. This time it is 100% GOD's doing, no other explanation is allowable. A mighty invasion force sweeps in and in a day God has destroyed them. They fall on the mountains of Israel which range from Northern Israel by the Golan down thru the spine of Israel as the mountain range runs along the Eastern edge of the Jordan River Valley.

This time in the Ezekiel invasion, they are living in careless security, without fear, relying on their own ability and strength. And this invasion sweeps in. So fast, like a storm. I did a word study on that to help with the understanding of horses here but I got into the words used to describe how the enemy comes in, the speed, the overwhelming force etc. https://www.raptureforums.com/forum...er-division-august-2013-article.168728/page-2 and I started with post #35 if anyone is interested in following that up to see just how this invasion is described.

God is allowing them this time to have absolutely NO confidence in their own ability.

He removes all possibility this time for anyone in Israel to even consider that it was their own strength.

God is using contrasts again to teach Israel just WHO is in charge here, and it certainly isn't the IDF, or their peace agreements or other nations who are friendly.

This time even though there are some friendly nations (sort of) all they seem willing or able to do is mouth a weak question to Russia, Have You Come for Spoil????? Israel is already forming those agreements now with the Abraham Accords and perhaps in the aftermath of the destruction of Damascus that gets firmed up further. Israel isn't yet finished with relying on other nations rather than turning to God. But here in Ezekiel, these fail them completely.

Just look at how this chapter begins. Israel dwelling in careless confidence. God putting a hook in the jaw of Russia and the allies to sweep down into Israel. Suddenly.


But it ain't over yet even when they begin burying their enemies and burning the weapons.

Because the next opportunity they get (if my time line is correct) will be to make their covenant with Death and Hades as the Bible calls it. The overwhelming scourge. The covenant with the Antichrist.

And this is their third and final lesson.

Because that ends mid way thru the Tribulation when the AC shows his true colours and the Abomination of Desolation occurs which opens most Israeli Jews eyes to the truth of who this is. They flee to Petra and by the end of the Tribulation their leaders cry out to Christ Jesus their Messiah to come and SAVE THEM.


I see it as a 3 part system of wakening the Jews out of their partial hardness towards God's own Son their Messiah and deliverer. As Paul says in Romans 11 but I will quote vs 25-27
25 For I do not want you, brothers and sisters, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; 26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written:

“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
He will remove ungodliness from Jacob.”
27 “This is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

I see it as a process, that begins with Isaiah and ends with the Millennial Kingdom of King Jesus who will save all of Israel in the Day of His Appearing at the end of the Tribulation. They will have breath in them finally as a nation, and they will forever serve HIM. As will we who love Him and form the church soon to be Raptured out of here.
 
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