Gog-Magog invasion timing

[athenasius]

I'd think President Trump would have a lot of different voices in the room when he is taking advice.

I keep thinking of that passage about how God turns the matters of the king like streams of water in His hands.
Proverbs 21:1 King James Version (KJV)
21 The king's heart is in the hand of the Lord, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.

And I think we are at such a point in history, where so many different chess pieces are in play around the world both in the Middle East and looking at how the globalist empire is shaping up to take control that individuals like Trump are being given choices, but with God's foreknowledge, those choices are already known to God and accounted for.

Long way of saying if God wants Trump to do something he will, but if the time is so short, that MAGA isn't going to be a concern (as in not enough time, the heart of the majority is turned aside from God) then God will direct him in ways that will allow things to blossom, even things like the coming Gog Magog war.

I was noticing there is friction between Russia and the US over in the north and eastern side of Syria, in the Kurdish areas (oil rich) and I remember the prophecies about the Medes destroying Babylon in the Tribulation. Russia is moving in. America is helping the Kurds keep their edge with oil and their areas. But not forever.

I also noted that Trump wants to drop the US forces stationed in Germany which has implications for NATO as well as the ongoing Syrian conflict area.

 

[mikhen7]

On the counselors, yes, I sure do hope so. The Bible tells us wisdom is found by those who have counselors.

Pr 11:14 Where there is no counsel, the people fall; But in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
Pr 12:20 Deceit is in the heart of those who devise evil, But counselors of peace have joy.
Pr 15:22 Without counsel, plans go awry, But in the multitude of counselors they are established.
Pr 24:6 For by wise counsel you will wage your own war, And in a multitude of counselors there is safety.

And there is no doubt at all, that Prov 21:1 is at play, none whatsoever. Time could be an issue for Trump, but God's will is going to be done. Thanks for the update on G/M in Syria!! Blessings to all who believe!!

 

[athenasius]

I just caught another little bit of news here: https://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-General/Mediterranean-Oil-Tensions-Are-Boiling-Over.html

which gives a current look at what Turkey is up to with the neighbourhood, and oil.

Russia and Turkey may be on opposing sides in Libya -- but where Israel's pipeline is concerned, they both want to stop it or take it over. That pipeline passes by Cyprus which is mostly Greek with the north eastern tip in control of Turkey. It passes from there to Greece where it goes up into Europe as a direct competitor to Russia's oil and natural gas markets there. On the way it goes across the sea bed that Turkey is claiming due to an illegal agreement with Libya (illegal because it bypasses the rights of Egypt, Israel and Greece to the sea floor within their international limits)

So Turkey is NOW planning on drilling for oil right offshore of some major Greek islands. Cheeky!

If Russia comes out in support of Turkey as this article speculates, this could be one of the many ways that Russia and Turkey become strong allies again.

That fuse is lit and burning over in the Middle East. Spoil might be OIL as many a prophecy expert has thought for some time.

 

[mikhen7]

I just caught another little bit of news here: https://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-General/Mediterranean-Oil-Tensions-Are-Boiling-Over.html

which gives a current look at what Turkey is up to with the neighbourhood, and oil.

Russia and Turkey may be on opposing sides in Libya -- but where Israel's pipeline is concerned, they both want to stop it or take it over. That pipeline passes by Cyprus which is mostly Greek with the north eastern tip in control of Turkey. It passes from there to Greece where it goes up into Europe as a direct competitor to Russia's oil and natural gas markets there. On the way it goes across the sea bed that Turkey is claiming due to an illegal agreement with Libya (illegal because it bypasses the rights of Egypt, Israel and Greece to the sea floor within their international limits)

So Turkey is NOW planning on drilling for oil right offshore of some major Greek islands. Cheeky!

If Russia comes out in support of Turkey as this article speculates, this could be one of the many ways that Russia and Turkey become strong allies again.

That fuse is lit and burning over in the Middle East. Spoil might be OIL as many a prophecy expert has thought for some time.

I couldn't agree more! And where Israel is concerned, mutual interests and Islamic hatred will overide any other disagreements. I hope all is well with you Margery! God is Good

 

[Almost Heaven]

That fuse is lit and burning over in the Middle East. Spoil might be OIL as many a prophecy expert has thought for some time.

The spoil likely is oil. The "hook" is very likely the Israel/Greece pipeline. The competition date for the pipeline is estimated at 2025. That makes Trump out of office even if he is elected to a 2nd term. I am guessing we will not have a second POTUS who supports Israel as this one does. Israel will look unprotected to the rest of the world once the US is no longer a strong supporter. 2025 will have Israel sitting with a completed pipeline and no real allies in the world.
We all know Putin is not going anywhere and is playing 3 dimensional Chess, while the rest of the world is playing checkers. I don't see him moving on Israel before they complete the pipeline for him. But watch North Africa, Putin will be spending his time getting his hands on the Libyan oil fields and readying the North African players for their roles in Gog/Magog.

 

[mikhen7]

The only way at this I could see Putin taking it before 2025 is with the intention of not allowing Israel to complete any oil contracts in Europe that may have been previous Russian contracts. In other words, nipping things in the bud.

 

[athenasius]

OK I just noticed something significant (to me anyway) in the Ezek 38:8 where Israel is dwelling securely-- carelessly-- the Strongs key is the Hebrew Betach H983.

and over in Ezek 39:6 where God is sending fire on the distant isles or coastlands (depending on your Bible version) it is said that these people living there are ALSO in a state of BETACH, Strongs H983

leaving me in a mild state of shock and delight! God sends fire on Magog, yup, got that part. They get their just rewards.

But it's the isles or distant coastlands which is iy H339 which can mean a country, coast, island or dry habitable spot. here's the Strongs: From H183; properly a habitable spot (as desirable); dry land, a coast, an island: - country, isle, island. (occurs 36 times)


And God sends FIRE down on there too. Now I've always just taken that to mean that God rains fire onto all the invaders distant countries or Russia launching nukes indiscriminately but it could be anywhere in the world that this is happening.

And it's somewhere that enjoys a careless attitude of "can't happen to us"-- feeling secure and carefree in an entitled sense of their own safety and security.

And in regards to the term Betach being used as unwalled villages, it's NOT translated that way when it refers to these far coastlands isles or country. That place is ALSO in that state of careless oblivious sense of security. Yet the translation is never unwalled that I've seen.

So that says to me that the proper use of Betach is as Arnold Fruchtenbaum says, not about the walls, but about the sense of careless easy security in their own ability to protect themselves.

 

[mikhen7]

OK I just noticed something significant (to me anyway) in the Ezek 38:8 where Israel is dwelling securely-- carelessly-- the Strongs key is the Hebrew Betach H983.

and over in Ezek 39:6 where God is sending fire on the distant isles or coastlands (depending on your Bible version) it is said that these people living there are ALSO in a state of BETACH, Strongs H983

leaving me in a mild state of shock and delight! God sends fire on Magog, yup, got that part. They get their just rewards.

But it's the isles or distant coastlands which is iy H339 which can mean a country, coast, island or dry habitable spot. here's the Strongs: From H183; properly a habitable spot (as desirable); dry land, a coast, an island: - country, isle, island. (occurs 36 times)


And God sends FIRE down on there too. Now I've always just taken that to mean that God rains fire onto all the invaders distant countries or Russia launching nukes indiscriminately but it could be anywhere in the world that this is happening.

And it's somewhere that enjoys a careless attitude of "can't happen to us"-- feeling secure and carefree in an entitled sense of their own safety and security.

And in regards to the term Betach being used as unwalled villages, it's NOT translated that way when it refers to these far coastlands isles or country. That place is ALSO in that state of careless oblivious sense of security. Yet the translation is never unwalled that I've seen.

So that says to me that the proper use of Betach is as Arnold Fruchtenbaum says, not about the walls, but about the sense of careless easy security in their own ability to protect themselves.

Yes indeed!! I am glad you see this as well. Quite awhile back I wrote the following in this thread: https://www.raptureforums.com/forums/threads/imminent-gog-magog-war.108738/post-842305945 Note Andy's reply that follows it. Good stuff Margery!!!!

 

[Spartan Sprinter 1]

OK I just noticed something significant (to me anyway) in the Ezek 38:8 where Israel is dwelling securely-- carelessly-- the Strongs key is the Hebrew Betach H983.

and over in Ezek 39:6 where God is sending fire on the distant isles or coastlands (depending on your Bible version) it is said that these people living there are ALSO in a state of BETACH, Strongs H983

leaving me in a mild state of shock and delight! God sends fire on Magog, yup, got that part. They get their just rewards.

But it's the isles or distant coastlands which is iy H339 which can mean a country, coast, island or dry habitable spot. here's the Strongs: From H183; properly a habitable spot (as desirable); dry land, a coast, an island: - country, isle, island. (occurs 36 times)


And God sends FIRE down on there too. Now I've always just taken that to mean that God rains fire onto all the invaders distant countries or Russia launching nukes indiscriminately but it could be anywhere in the world that this is happening.

And it's somewhere that enjoys a careless attitude of "can't happen to us"-- feeling secure and carefree in an entitled sense of their own safety and security.

And in regards to the term Betach being used as unwalled villages, it's NOT translated that way when it refers to these far coastlands isles or country. That place is ALSO in that state of careless oblivious sense of security. Yet the translation is never unwalled that I've seen.

So that says to me that the proper use of Betach is as Arnold Fruchtenbaum says, not about the walls, but about the sense of careless easy security in their own ability to protect themselves.

I saw an interesting arcticle yesterday on the RR newsfeed where an IDF general warned against cutting the defense budget for the military due to a perceived sense of calm and security in the region as their enemies could strike at anytime.

The words Calm and security immediately jumped out to me when i read the article.

 

[mikhen7]

That is WISE Mike, but Praise GOD!

Still praising God with you Margery!!! But to the topic, they know and that is all I need to say. It is such good news to know they know. But if I were to post verbatim, I feel like it would be giving the devil a foothold to attack our present leaders. God is at work and that is all we need to know! Praise His Holy and Blessed Name!!

 

[athenasius]

Regarding your concern for the Medianites, it is probably better this way.

YUP!

 

[Spartan Sprinter 1]

YUP!

I've been looking up Bill Salus lately to see whether he has some updated info on the middle east wars or situations going on there and i'm really being troubled by the company he regularly appears with eg Perry Stone, occasionally Jonathan Cahn and a host of othersthat the Prophecy watchers people alarmingly invite to their conferences.

I'm feeling semi conflicted with his views at the moment , what do you think Athenasius ?

 

[athenasius]

I've been looking up Bill Salus lately to see whether he has some updated info on the middle east wars or situations going on there and i'm really being troubled by the company he regularly appears with eg Perry Stone, occasionally Jonathan Cahn and a host of othersthat the Prophecy watchers people alarmingly invite to their conferences.

I'm feeling semi conflicted with his views at the moment , what do you think Athenasius ?

I'm not the best person to answer that because I mostly read his books and only watch when he shows up on Stearman.

Who we choose to spend time with, show up on a lecture stage with, behind a pulpit with implies some background comfort with the other people's theology. Whether Bill knows it or not, that implies agreement with their fitness to preach behind a pulpit. I know conferences are more of a grey area. And as for the christian book selling circuit, that is a whole other kettle of fish. I'd never brush aside those first hints of change in a person if that is what you think you are seeing. But I wouldn't make a case against them based on that alone either.

Gary Stearman's show is a case in point. Gary's bread and butter is selling books. Stearman, a good solid dispensational teacher in his own right, has some very odd or bad guests on his show, pitching their books --mixed in with some enthusiastic, interesting types like Ken Johnson whose specialty is Dead Sea Scrolls, or free wheeling original thinkers like LAMarzulli investigating some fringe topics --along with conservative greats like Dr Ron Rhodes, or Dr Mark Hitchcock or Dr Andy Woods or Dr Thomas Ice. Stearman's guest list runs the whole gamut.

Bill is an out of the box kind of guy to begin with. He explores different ideas and talks with people with a genuine interest in what they have to say and he doesn't pre judge by what I've seen of him. So from the get go, he's someone who isn't afraid to look at things from a different angle. And he goes and checks up all these ideas against the Bible, like a good Berean before he writes on it. Case in point was his book on Elam.

I remain neither convinced nor unconvinced of his books and ideas.

They've sent me on some very good rabbit trails. He's done a nice job with all his books, making his case in each one, using the Scripture well, without bending or distorting it -- his answers to his critics have been equally good. But his conclusions are prophetic-- things that we won't know the truth of, till they come about OR NOT which he says himself. He is very open about that. He encourages a Berean attitude, and he doesn't imply that those who don't agree with him are missing out on God's best. Good character.

In contrast to his openness to hearing people disagree with him and his honesty in pointing out the weaknesses of his own arguments, I find Cahn's work deceptive.

Cahn launches his books as fictional narratives that teach some very sketchy theology. Because of the story line, he doesn't have to explain-- he just allows his current mouthpeice/prophet/teacher type in each book unload a few cherry picked Scriptures onto the undiscerning audience. Vague visionary threats of financial or social collapse, and other things that false prophets like because sooner or later something like that happens in the normal course of events.

Cahn's books are like a Cindy Jacobs false prophecy palooza in book form. Long on the things that are probably going to happen, that anybody and their poodle or pomeranian could expect, and short on actual verifiable details.

And Perry Stone is another very bad man.-- also one that a lot of people here have dealt with.

If Bill's agreeing with their ideas I'd be VERY alarmed. There have been good people in the past, who showed their first signs of going sideways by preferring to hang out with the rebels in the preacher crowd, the misfits and the downright deceptive types.

 

[Andiamo]

So that says to me that the proper use of Betach is as Arnold Fruchtenbaum says, not about the walls, but about the sense of careless easy security in their own ability to protect themselves.

Bumpity-bump....bump-a-bump-bump

 

[Lovin Jesus]

Ezekiel 38 war is to bring Israel back to God. Armageddon is God’s war against the nations..

THE BATTLE OF EZEKIEL 38-39 … PART 1

What Time Is It?
First of all, let’s get some kind of time frame settled. Ezekiel’s prophecies are chronological. Falling between the prophecies of Israel’s modern re-birth (Ezekiel 36-37) and the Millennium (Ezekiel 40-48), the battle of Ezekiel 38-39 has to take place during a time of peace after 1948 but before the 2nd coming, and all agree it hasn’t happened yet. This has led some to see the passage as a description of Armageddon, but as we’ll see there are many prominent nations missing from this battle whereas Zechariah 14:2 prophecies that every nation will join the battle of Armageddon. That being the case, the time frame narrows to sometime between 1948 and the beginning of the Great Tribulation, after which no place in the world will be at peace, especially Israel.

Ezekiel prophesied that the Lord would use this battle to turn Israel back to Him and to complete the return of Jews from all over the world to Israel, not leaving any behind (Ezekiel 39:28). This leads us to believe that the battle of Ezekiel 38-39 is the event that re-starts the clock on the 490-year period of time spoken of by Daniel, the famous 70 weeks of Daniel 9:24-27. 69 of those weeks (483 years) had come when the Messiah was crucified and the Temple destroyed, stopping the clock one week (seven years) short of fulfillment. I believe the dramatic victory the Lord wins over Israel’s enemies in Ezekiel’s battle will convince them to officially re-instate their Old Covenant relationship with Him to fulfill the remaining seven years of Daniel’s prophecy. This will require two things to happen. First they’ll need a Temple for worship. It’s this Temple that’s later desecrated by the anti-Christ, kicking off the Great Tribulation.

And second, the Church will have to disappear. Paul wrote that Israel had been hardened in part until the full number of Gentiles has come in (Romans 11:25). That means as long as the Church is around Israel won’t be able to recognize God’s involvement in their national life. But the Battle of Ezekiel 38 will be such a miraculous victory that it will re-awaken Israel to God’s presence. This means the Dispensation of Grace will have come to an end and the Church will be gone by the time this battle comes to an end.

Over 130 historical references demonstrate that Magog is the father of today’s Russian people. (For a more detailed treatment on the modern names of all the nations mentioned in this passage, click here.)

The phrase “hooks in the jaw” comes from the equestrian world where a special bridle is used to make a rebellious horse obedient to its rider’s commands. It symbolizes God forcing Russia to become involved in this battle to assure that His will is done. Persia is the ancient name for Iran, Cush and Put represent the North African nations, Gomer was Magog’s brother and settled along the Danube River in what would become Eastern Europe, and Togarmah, a son of Gomer, inhabited what’s now known as Turkey. The characteristic all these nations have in common today is their religion. They’re all Moslem.
(Ezek. 38:7-9)

From events currently unfolding in Syria, it’s also beginning to look like the Isaiah 17 prophecy of the destruction of Damascus could be fulfilled at the same time. Israel has officially declared that they’ll hold Syria responsible for any attack by Hezbollah, and will retaliate accordingly.

If the fulfillment of Psalm 83 and Isaiah 17 precede the Battle Ezekiel 38, it helps explain how Israel could be taken by surprise when the Moslem coalition attacks and why none of Israel’s next door neighbors are mentioned in Ezekiel’s line up.

https://gracethrufaith.com/end-times-prophecy/the-battle-of-ezekiel-38-39-part-1/

ARMAGEDDON AND EZEKIEL 38

Q
Some prophecy teachers are claiming that Ezekiel’s battle is part of the Armageddon scenario. Some of their arguments seem to make sense. Is there any compelling reason why they can’t be right?
A
There are several reasons why Ezekiel 38 can’t be part of the Armageddon scenario. First, only some nations are involved in Ezekiel 38. For example, Saudi Arabia and Western Europe are on the sidelines watching and others, like Egypt, are not mentioned at all. But Zechariah 12:3, says that in Armageddon all the nations of the Earth will come against Jerusalem.

Second, how is Israel going to burn the left over weapons for 7 years (Ezek. 39:9) unless there are 7 years left in which to burn them? And then you have Ezekiel 38:11 telling us that Israel will be a peaceful and unsuspecting people when the Moslem coalition strikes. Could that be possible near the end of the Great Tribulation when all the nations are gathering to attack?

But most importantly, Daniel’s 70th week can’t start until Israel is back in covenant with God and the battle of Ezekiel 38 is what causes the covenant to be re-instated. (Ezek. 39:22) Armageddon comes at the end of the 70th week, not the beginning.
https://gracethrufaith.com/ask-a-bible-teacher/armageddon-and-ezekiel-38/

 

[bigmoose]

Romans 11:25 referenced above appears to significantly help the timing estimate of the Ezk 38-39 war. I had not considered that passage in that context before.

 

[Wings Like Eagles]

Hmmm I'd need to read thru this rather long and windy road of a thread again to grab hold of the main points. I'm game. I'm in and out depending on my energy level and tolerance for tangential topics. It might be really refreshing to refocus on Ezekiel again.

I'll throw myself back into the fray by saying

I think the events of Ezekiel 38 and 39 are probably (but not 100% sure) after the Rapture and before the Tribulation. I say that based on the words used by God as Ezekiel outlines in those chapters. Also the use of 7 years burning of weapons. I think the gap between the Rapture and Tribulation could be up to 3.5 years or as little as 3.5 seconds and still comfortably fit that time frame.

I tend to look towards a little bit more of a gap between them because of Immanency (I ALWAYS spell that wrong but you know what I mean) because that keeps it at the any moment it could happen Rapture expectancy. We don't see the AC. So too close to the beginning of the Trib you run into the problem of having a leader ready to kick off an agreement with Israel-- sort of spotting the AC on the way up as it were. I think things could fall into place VERY rapidly, beyond comprehension rapidly but if it was now for example, there are still aspects of the Tribulation that haven't formed (the 10 kings/administrative zones). And that AC must rise in the midst of those 10 and knock off 3 of them becoming the 8th.

I think the Damascus event may kick the whole thing off, and even there, the wording suggests that God is using that to draw Israel back to Him. It would fit rather neatly as the starter pistol.

I'm less inclined to see a Psalm 83 war as the starter pistol, and I have some problems with the Psalm 83 scenario, BUT that said, there are some intriguing elements that suggest a coalition of nations who have terrorism as a common element that include related Damascus destruction events. So MAYBE some aspects of that but not as outlined by Bill Salus in his original 2 books on the subject.

The Golan is definitely in view. From the north references in Ezek to related scriptures that all point to something big happening from the Golan.

A lot of Bible commentary doesn't even acknowledge Psalm 83 as an actual war--but rather a "rumour (threat) of war".

 

[sawas]

A lot of Bible commentary doesn't even acknowledge Psalm 83 as an actual war--but rather a "rumour (threat) of war".

Agreed, a good chunk of this thread (or others here) have gone "round and round" on the "imprecatory prayer" vs. "prophecy" topic, without resolution. So, while I sit (more-or-less firmly) on the fence, I still recognize that the Psalm 83 "speculation" (as I'll call it) does, sort-of neatly, answers some puzzling questions about the apparent absence of certain countries or peoples in various prophetic events. I believe I'd put together a list comparing a handful of these earlier in this thread that you might check out (assuming it remains).

 

[Hiftobaf]

And to make things even more confusing, I've seen arguments that the Psalm 83 war was fulfilled at least in part by the Six Day War.

 

[athenasius]

As noted in the prior post, these are the peoples and locations identified for judgement/destruction in the discussed passages. Also added those in Ezekiel 38 for contrast. To the best of my ability, they are organized geographically.

Obviously, these are open for discussion, suggested revisions, et al.

	Ps 83​	Is 17​	Jer 49​	Zech 9:1-8​	Ez 32:17-32​	Ez 38-39​
To the North
Syria		X​
Damascus​		X​	X​
Hamath (city in west central Syria)​			X​	X​
Arpad (City in NW Syria)​			X​
Phoenician States
Gebal (Lebanon)​	X​
Tyre (Lebanon)​	X​			X​
Sidon (Lebanon)​				X​	X​
Assyria (extending into W. Iraq)	X​				X​
Elam (Persia/Iran)			X​		X​	X​
Gog - Prince of Rosh, Meshech, Tubal						X​
Meshech & Tubal (Turkey?)​					X​	X​
Togarmah (Anatolia)​						X​
Inside (Modern) Israel / Canaan
Ephraim		X​
Kishon​	X​
En-dor (Galilee)​	X​
Hazor (Upper Galilee)​			X​
Jabin (King of Hazor)​	X​
Sisera (Commander of King Jabin of Hazor)​	X​
Ashkelon ?​				X​
Asdod ?​				X​
Philistia (inc. Gaza)	X​			X​
Ai (Canaan, West Bank)​			X​
Amalek (Sons of Esau) Southern Canaan​	X​
Ekron (SW Canaan)​				X​
To the East
Ammon	X​		X​
Rabbah (Amonite city)​			X​
Heshbon (Ammonite/Jordan)​			X​
Moab (South of Ammon)	X​
Aroer (or possible alternate area near to Damascus?)​		X​
To the South
Edom (Transjordan) immediately south of Judah	X​		X​		X​
Teman (Edomite clan at Petra)​			X​
Dedan (wandering people of Arabia, with t/w Sheba)​			X​			Observer​
Esau (projenitor of the Edomites)​			X​
Bozrah (Jordan city, north Edom)​			X​
Ishmaelites (North/NW Arabia)	X​
Hagrites (Sons of Agar, associated with Ishmaelites​	X​
Kedar (wandering tribe of Arabia?​			X​
Midian (NW Arabia)​	X​
Oreb & Zeeb (Midianite Princes)​	X​
Zebah & Zalmunna (Midianite Kings)​	X​
Egypt					X​
Etheopia						X​
Put (Libya)						X​

I think this might be the chart.