Gog-Magog invasion timing

Spartan Sprinter 1

Formerly known as Shaun
Bless you, but I just found an author - Jack W. Langford-who has covered both my rabbit trails perfectly. A dear friend mentioned him to me the other day, and when I went on Amazon to order a kindle copy I found out he had written another book covering the 3 harvests & their significance.

I had been leery of his book on the Pentecostal Rapture when I first heard about it because the title suggests that he places the Rapture at some future Pentecost. HE DOESN’T limit it to Pentecost Sunday!!!! He is discussing the FULNESS aspect of the Gentiles being gathered in, relating that in fulfillment of Pentecost, while still allowing for immanence. (I am sure I am spelling this wrong).

The books if anyone is interested are the Pentecostal Rapture of the church of Jesus Christ and the other book is The Threefold order of the resurrection of the righteous.



Yes this feels exactly like that!!! You are very right.


I can’t remember where I read it or listen to it but I know have heard the same idea! You are on the right track keep going! I think it might’ve been Ken Johnson in one of his Dead Sea Scrolls lectures that he’s doing on Thursday nights. I think he said something about the view of the earliest of the early church fathers saying something like that. He touches on the early church fathers writings as well as the Dead Sea Scrolls and the viewpoints of the Essenes.

@sawas I found the passages in Dr.Arnold Fruchtenbaum’s book the Footsteps of the Messiah about the timing of the Gog Magog war. Starting on page 106 he goes into it but his views on the timing are on page 117. He places the timing before the Tribulation. He also deals with the mid tribulation time and view and demolishes it then he deals with the other POVs. This is also where he discusses the Hebrew term “batach” meaning a state of peace and security but not due to confidence in God or in any peace treaty. He explains why he thinks it is pre-tribulation but not pre-rapture.

i’ve just had word this morning that I have a surgery date on June 3 which is coming up in two weeks. This is a major answer to prayer. Still struggling with fatigue so I’ll be in and out as I’m able.
AHAHAH i was just about to mention you do know he is an advocate for a pentecostal rapture and appears sometmies as a guest on prophecy watchers.

I also pray that your surgery goes well.

One more thing that has been bugging me all night, some people are also listing ascension day as a similar rapture watch like pentecost.

I know that it's the day the Lord ascended to heaven, but i haven't really heard about it being celebrated as an actual day of celebration amongst christians, for the little digging i have done i see that mainly catholics and anglicans celebrate this day .

Do you think we should we be treating this day with importance as well as easter ?
 

Andiamo

"Let's go!"
I relate.... A LOT is over my head in this thread, but I appreciate this amazing discussion. Going to re-read this whole thread with the bible in front of me and try to understand this more.
Ugh....never mind, you guys lost me after page 2! At least I made more differentiation between Armageddon and Ez 38. But the rest of it.......wow.......Your brains.......
Are not like my brain. o_O
 

sawas

Well-Known Member
Ugh....never mind, you guys lost me after page 2! At least I made more differentiation between Armageddon and Ez 38. But the rest of it.......wow.......Your brains.......
Are not like my brain. o_O
LOL, I too have occasionally gotten lost, gotten behind, nearly caught-up, gotten behind again, sidetracked, etc. at various times. But, I've learned a lot too, even when having to defend a position. I am trying to put together a summary of the whole thing for those without the, uhhh, stamina (?) desire (?) to go through it all.
 

sawas

Well-Known Member
AHAHAH i was just about to mention you do know he is an advocate for a pentecostal rapture and appears sometmies as a guest on prophecy watchers.

I also pray that your surgery goes well.

One more thing that has been bugging me all night, some people are also listing ascension day as a similar rapture watch like pentecost.

I know that it's the day the Lord ascended to heaven, but i haven't really heard about it being celebrated as an actual day of celebration amongst christians, for the little digging i have done i see that mainly catholics and anglicans celebrate this day .

Do you think we should we be treating this day with importance as well as easter ?
I've been watching (again), sharing with my wife, the very good (and recent) Andy Woods lectures on the Rapture. So, the last episode we watched was focused on the doctrine of Imminence, which in his opinion would prelude the idea that we'd be able to pin it down like that. Symbolically, all of the dates mentioned make sense, this one as well (even if only Catholics observe the date). But, at present, I remain inclined to believe that we'll not be able to expect it on any particular date.
 

Andiamo

"Let's go!"
LOL, I too have occasionally gotten lost, gotten behind, nearly caught-up, gotten behind again, sidetracked, etc. at various times. But, I've learned a lot too, even when having to defend a position. I am trying to put together a summary of the whole thing for those without the, uhhh, stamina (?) desire (?) to go through it all.
Uhhhh yes......that would be me. :oops: My attention span at maximum concentration is more than a gnat's, but not much more
EDIT: But don't dumb it down for folks like myself. You are all obviously about a light year ahead of me here. (Tiptoes out of graduate-level classroom.....)
 
Last edited:

athenasius

Well-Known Member
Ugh....never mind, you guys lost me after page 2! At least I made more differentiation between Armageddon and Ez 38. But the rest of it.......wow.......Your brains.......
Are not like my brain. o_O
You don't know how fuzzy MINE is lately. I have to go re read the whole thread just to keep it all straight and I'm kicking myself for opening up far too many confusing rabbit trails. But I don't have the energy, and my attention span is that of a mosquito at that moment.
LOL, I too have occasionally gotten lost, gotten behind, nearly caught-up, gotten behind again, sidetracked, etc. at various times. But, I've learned a lot too, even when having to defend a position. I am trying to put together a summary of the whole thing for those without the, uhhh, stamina (?) desire (?) to go through it all.
PLEASE do it!
I've been watching (again), sharing with my wife, the very good (and recent) Andy Woods lectures on the Rapture. So, the last episode we watched was focused on the doctrine of Imminence, which in his opinion would prelude the idea that we'd be able to pin it down like that. Symbolically, all of the dates mentioned make sense, this one as well (even if only Catholics observe the date). But, at present, I remain inclined to believe that we'll not be able to expect it on any particular date.
AHA! THAT is how it's spelled! Thank you! I knew I was spelling it wrong but that doctrine is SUPER important. I'll have to try watching Andy in short segments so I can keep focused. I think that doctrine is foundational to a good understanding of the Rapture which was why I'd avoided Langfords book (and everyone else who pins their Rapture hopes on a particular day out of the year like one of the Feast days etc). I was delighted to find that he goes to some length to explain that he doesn't pin it to Pentecost, but he views Pentecost as being fulfilled by the Rapture.
One more thing that has been bugging me all night, some people are also listing ascension day as a similar rapture watch like pentecost.
I know that it's the day the Lord ascended to heaven, but i haven't really heard about it being celebrated as an actual day of celebration amongst christians, for the little digging i have done i see that mainly catholics and anglicans celebrate this day .
Do you think we should we be treating this day with importance as well as easter ?
Nope, I think any day like Easter, Pentecost, Good Friday are simply days to remember what God has done for us, to celebrate and praise Him, but
I think people make a serious mistake by assigning significance to them as a "high watch time" as some call it.

While we can know the season-- and we should be waiting and watching for the Rapture with expectancy and hope (because that purifies us, and it gives us a reward-- a special crown given those who wait expectantly for the Lord's return) but we shouldn't be assigning "high watch times" because that destroys Imminence for the rest of the year. Jesus might well return on a Feast day, or on any other day of the year and our hope is pinned on His return, focused on Him.

It prevents the very real disappointment that Christians feel when their "high watch time" has come and gone for another year.

I look at the believers thru history-- for them to get that crown of Righteousness (2 Tim 4:8) they have to have that hope. That hope that the Rapture is Imminent, it could occur at any time, it doesn't require anything to be fulfilled, no preconditions.

And for them as well as us, this expectant hope, is a purifier. (1 John 3:2-3) So for John to write that to believers that would span 2000 years of church history, that hope had to be as real to them as it is to us.

2 Timothy 4:8 King James Version (KJV)
8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

1 John 3:2-3 King James Version (KJV)
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
 

Spartan Sprinter 1

Formerly known as Shaun
LOL, I too have occasionally gotten lost, gotten behind, nearly caught-up, gotten behind again, sidetracked, etc. at various times. But, I've learned a lot too, even when having to defend a position. I am trying to put together a summary of the whole thing for those without the, uhhh, stamina (?) desire (?) to go through it all.
Please do , i'm enjoying your insights and research into this stuff and the spanner in the works that Athenasius throws in to do further digging
 

mikhen7

Freed By Christ to Serve Christ
You don't know how fuzzy MINE is lately. I have to go re read the whole thread just to keep it all straight and I'm kicking myself for opening up far too many confusing rabbit trails. But I don't have the energy, and my attention span is that of a mosquito at that moment.

PLEASE do it!

AHA! THAT is how it's spelled! Thank you! I knew I was spelling it wrong but that doctrine is SUPER important. I'll have to try watching Andy in short segments so I can keep focused. I think that doctrine is foundational to a good understanding of the Rapture which was why I'd avoided Langfords book (and everyone else who pins their Rapture hopes on a particular day out of the year like one of the Feast days etc). I was delighted to find that he goes to some length to explain that he doesn't pin it to Pentecost, but he views Pentecost as being fulfilled by the Rapture.

Nope, I think any day like Easter, Pentecost, Good Friday are simply days to remember what God has done for us, to celebrate and praise Him, but
I think people make a serious mistake by assigning significance to them as a "high watch time" as some call it.

While we can know the season-- and we should be waiting and watching for the Rapture with expectancy and hope (because that purifies us, and it gives us a reward-- a special crown given those who wait expectantly for the Lord's return) but we shouldn't be assigning "high watch times" because that destroys Imminence for the rest of the year. Jesus might well return on a Feast day, or on any other day of the year and our hope is pinned on His return, focused on Him.

It prevents the very real disappointment that Christians feel when their "high watch time" has come and gone for another year.

I look at the believers thru history-- for them to get that crown of Righteousness (2 Tim 4:8) they have to have that hope. That hope that the Rapture is Imminent, it could occur at any time, it doesn't require anything to be fulfilled, no preconditions.

And for them as well as us, this expectant hope, is a purifier. (1 John 3:2-3) So for John to write that to believers that would span 2000 years of church history, that hope had to be as real to them as it is to us.

2 Timothy 4:8 King James Version (KJV)
8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

1 John 3:2-3 King James Version (KJV)
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
Great post!! I always say there is 1/365 chance for the rapture happening on Pentecost or Trumpets. Yes the feasts are shadows of things to come, but we cannot pin down something that is imminent like the rapture. BTW, imminence means something that is hanging over the head or anytime, soon, etc. I brought a sermon a couple years ago on the topic. I also defined immanence, and eminent. People get confused when we say the word imminent because of confusing definitions.
 

sawas

Well-Known Member
You don't know how fuzzy MINE is lately. I have to go re read the whole thread just to keep it all straight and I'm kicking myself for opening up far too many confusing rabbit trails. But I don't have the energy, and my attention span is that of a mosquito at that moment.

PLEASE do it!

AHA! THAT is how it's spelled! Thank you! I knew I was spelling it wrong but that doctrine is SUPER important. I'll have to try watching Andy in short segments so I can keep focused. I think that doctrine is foundational to a good understanding of the Rapture which was why I'd avoided Langfords book (and everyone else who pins their Rapture hopes on a particular day out of the year like one of the Feast days etc). I was delighted to find that he goes to some length to explain that he doesn't pin it to Pentecost, but he views Pentecost as being fulfilled by the Rapture.

Nope, I think any day like Easter, Pentecost, Good Friday are simply days to remember what God has done for us, to celebrate and praise Him, but
I think people make a serious mistake by assigning significance to them as a "high watch time" as some call it.

While we can know the season-- and we should be waiting and watching for the Rapture with expectancy and hope (because that purifies us, and it gives us a reward-- a special crown given those who wait expectantly for the Lord's return) but we shouldn't be assigning "high watch times" because that destroys Imminence for the rest of the year. Jesus might well return on a Feast day, or on any other day of the year and our hope is pinned on His return, focused on Him.

It prevents the very real disappointment that Christians feel when their "high watch time" has come and gone for another year.

I look at the believers thru history-- for them to get that crown of Righteousness (2 Tim 4:8) they have to have that hope. That hope that the Rapture is Imminent, it could occur at any time, it doesn't require anything to be fulfilled, no preconditions.

And for them as well as us, this expectant hope, is a purifier. (1 John 3:2-3) So for John to write that to believers that would span 2000 years of church history, that hope had to be as real to them as it is to us.

2 Timothy 4:8 King James Version (KJV)
8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

1 John 3:2-3 King James Version (KJV)
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
Amen 5X to all of the above (and I will do it :)). But, I'd like to highlight portion of the above for extra emphasis:

I look at the believers thru history-- for them to get that crown of Righteousness (2 Tim 4:8) they have to have that hope. That hope that the Rapture is Imminent, it could occur at any time, it doesn't require anything to be fulfilled, no preconditions.​
And for them as well as us, this expectant hope, is a purifier. (1 John 3:2-3) So for John to write that to believers that would span 2000 years of church history, that hope had to be as real to them as it is to us.​
The first point Woods makes in that series is that "the Doctrine of the Rapture is Important", not as a matter of soteriology, of course, but as a matter of how we conduct ourselves. As I've been thinking about it, the more inclined I am to understand that this principle extends beyond personal holiness, which is important. It actually colors our judgement on all eschatology and closes the door to making other serious doctrinal errors. It merely begins with a temptation to join into the chorus of voices saying "where is the promise of His coming". Every time I examine a post-Trib (non-Imminence) believer, I tend to see many other problems like: Replacement Theology, Kingdom Now Theology, Amillennialism, Calvinism, etc., etc., etc. That makes the Pre-Trib Rapture doctrine very important firewall.
 
Last edited:

Spartan Sprinter 1

Formerly known as Shaun
Oh, yes, she's a terrible distraction. And, most annoying of all, it seems, invariably, to be rather fruitful. :pest:jazzercise
I don't know whether she is a heavy coffee drinker but she brings more energy than the caffeine energy levels i get from my energy drinks but i love the level of detail she brings and the Scripture verses she quotes from to support her view points ahahahah
 

mikhen7

Freed By Christ to Serve Christ
Great post!! I always say there is 1/365 chance for the rapture happening on Pentecost or Trumpets. Yes the feasts are shadows of things to come, but we cannot pin down something that is imminent like the rapture.
I wanted to reply to my own post. A couple of days ago I saw a book was being marketed on how we could know for sure the time of Christs return. I went to amazon and saw it was sitting at #1 in three areas they target. So I wanted to investigate. It was an 84 page book that states everything that has been discussed over the years on this forum concerning the six-day and six-thousand years of creation and the Feast of Trumpets as the Day. He stated "Noone knows the day or the hour" as an idiomatic Hebrew phrase which meant the exact hour because the Trumpets falls on different days each year. So another date setter. Wow, when will people learn. Trumpets is a good choice if we were to guess, but choosing a date eliminates imminency. So I refuse to set a date.
 

Spartan Sprinter 1

Formerly known as Shaun
I wanted to reply to my own post. A couple of days ago I saw a book was being marketed on how we could know for sure the time of Christs return. I went to amazon and saw it was sitting at #1 in three areas they target. So I wanted to investigate. It was an 84 page book that states everything that has been discussed over the years on this forum concerning the six-day and six-thousand years of creation and the Feast of Trumpets as the Day. He stated "Noone knows the day or the hour" as an idiomatic Hebrew phrase which meant the exact hour because the Trumpets falls on different days each year. So another date setter. Wow, when will people learn. Trumpets is a good choice if we were to guess, but choosing a date eliminates imminency. So I refuse to set a date.
I confess that i fell into the category of looking for fall feasts and pentecost etc as rapture dates only to get angry and disappointed each time.

The last time i was waiting on a feast and i got disappointed , this thought came into my head asking why i was disappointed and angry and asking don't other people deserve to get saved ?

I must admit i was shocked at the time and felt that i was put in my place very quickly.
 

Spartan Sprinter 1

Formerly known as Shaun
I was just pondering a thought about whether the christian staff who advise president Trump on matters regarding Israel such as MIke Pompeo or Mike Pence take into account what the bible says about the Ezekiel 38 war and the consequences that befall anyone that tries to divide the land of Israel ?
 

mikhen7

Freed By Christ to Serve Christ
I was just pondering a thought about whether the christian staff who advise president Trump on matters regarding Israel such as MIke Pompeo or Mike Pence take into account what the bible says about the Ezekiel 38 war and the consequences that befall anyone that tries to divide the land of Israel ?
I have thought of this too. Mike Pompeo? Maybe since he believes in the Rapture. Pence, I doubt it. But unless we know someone in the know, we will probably never know.
 

athenasius

Well-Known Member
Athenasius, I have seen a teaching on Jeremiah 8:13,20

(This is what you had said in a previous post

Jeremiah 8:20 New International Version (NIV)
20 “The harvest is past,
the summer has ended,
and we are not saved.”

"I know that sounds obscure, but Jeremiah is talking to the Jews. And it's a lament. There was a time to repent, an interval but Jeremiah's weeping (it's in that context) is for his fellow Jews about to go into Babylonian captivity. The harvest is PAST, Summer has ENDED, and WE (the Jews) are not saved.

I have been considering that as a prophecy that was fulfilled then, and has yet to be finally fulfilled. If they are looking around at the incoming threats when summer is ended, they are not saved (implying that they hoped they would be-- I think they were hoping Egypt might help out in the first go round, and in this next go round that the AC is the boy wonder who can help them out.) The summer seems like the Church age. Time for grace. Grace extended to the last days of summer, then harvest is past (we are gone?) and they are not saved-- going into the furnace of affliction.
")

When Abram was born Hosea 9:10 says

When I saw your Fathers, it was like seeing the early fruit on the fig tree

2000BC began the summer because there was the type of fruit Jesus was looking for

!000 BC Saul, David and Solomon the late fruit on the fig tree

then Israel rebels against god and goes into captivity it is during this time that Israel goes into the winter of unbelief

Israel is still disobedient Malachi 1 and 2

Summer began to come again when Jesus was born around 0 AD

30AD and from that time Jesus began to preach, Repent for the kingdom of heaven is near MATT 4:17

and at 33AD the fig tree had been cursed by Jesus because of no fruit(Mark 11:13,

14), but it was not the time for figs, but there will be in the future

it is also at this time when Jesus enters Jerusalem and makes the proclamation

41 And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it,

42 Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.

43 For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side,

44 And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.

It is at this time Jeremiah 8:13 and Jeremiah8:20 come to pass, because he found no fruit that Israel again enters the winter of unbelief, which lasts for 2000 years until May 14, 1948 when the fig tree again comes to life as given by Jesus in Matthew 24:32,33,34

32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Summer is coming into view again and the Song of Songs 2:11,13

See! The winter is past; the rains are over and gone. The fig tree forms it early fruit.


Once the Lord takes Israel to a place of safety to protect her from the serpent


13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.


it is at this time that Israel will begin to believe and the fig tree will bear that summer fruit of figs.
I have been meaning to get back to you on this because that is a wonderful wonderful explanation of that passage!

i’ve been focusing on a teaching of the three trees of Israel. The fig tree is national Israel and then the vine and the olive are also Israel.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/study/larkin/dt/29.cfm
 
Top