Gog-Magog invasion timing

cavalier973

Well-Known Member
Searching around, I learned of a book by one Ron Rhodes called, "Northern Storm Rising".

Has anyone read this, or does anyone know this author?

Edit: I see that Dr. Rhodes is one of the people that contributes article to pre-trib dot org
 

athenasius

Well-Known Member
Searching around, I learned of a book by one Ron Rhodes called, "Northern Storm Rising".

Has anyone read this, or does anyone know this author?

Edit: I see that Dr. Rhodes is one of the people that contributes article to pre-trib dot org
I know of and read Dr. Rhodes. I have a number of his books (9) and all of them are theologically sound. He is pre trib, pre mill and dispensationalist. Safe, good and very clear thinking.

I have that book, and recommend it along with anything else he writes.

Another one you might enjoy is The End Times in Chronological Order, Christianity According to the Bible (separating Cultural Religion from Biblical Truth), The 8 Great Debates of Bible Prophecy and Unmasking the Antichrist.

That last one doesn't mean he gets into trying to spot the AC, he is just doing a thorough Bible Study using all the different passages in the Bible that prophesy about the AC and how they fit together.

The 8 Great Debates is really good too, the first one being do we interpret Prophecy literally or allegorically? (Literally of course) and he explains why he is a Dispensationalist as well as what Covenant Theology (reform) teaches in comparison. 2 is Are Israel and the Church distinct in Bible Prophecy (why we need to stay away from the theology that replaces Israel with the church).
 
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athenasius

Well-Known Member
I have scanned through the stickied articles concerning the differences between the Ezekiel 38 war and Armageddon, but is there a dedicated article explaining the difference between the Ezekiel War and the final "battle" at the end of the Millenial Kingdom?
Yes, several people have charted that. Dr Rhodes in debate 3 (8 Debates book) covers it well, but I'll go over it briefly as outlined by Dr RR;

Armageddon involves ALL nations of Earth-- Joel 3:2, Zephaniah 3:8, Zechariah 12:3, 14:2 while the EZEKIEL invasion is only SPECIFIC nations (Ez 38:1-6)

The locations are different:
Armgdn is at the Mount of Megiddo about 60 miles NORTH of Jerusalem
EZKL takes place on the Mountains of Israel

The CASUALTIES
Amgdn is as a result of the personal appearance of Jesus
EZKL is due to a great quake, infighting among the invaders, disease (pestilence!) heavy rain, and fire and brimstone falling on the invaders. Ez 38:20-22

The JEWS
will NOT be living in security and at rest at the end of the Trib-- they will be enduring great persecution BUT
during the first half of the Trib-- the Jews WILL be in relative peace and security which is when most Bible scholars think this Ez invasion takes place-- anytime from just before the Trib, to the midpoint is where most place it.

who leads the invasions
AT ARMGDDN the BEAST, (the AC) is head of the invasion campaign. See Rev 19:19
At EZKL GOG of Magog is the head of the invading force (Ez 38:2)

Who do the armies array themselves against?
ARMGDN-- the armies are arrayed against Jesus Christ at His Second Coming.
EZKL- they are arrayed against Israel to plunder Israel.
 

cavalier973

Well-Known Member
Yes, several people have charted that. Dr Rhodes in debate 3 (8 Debates book) covers it well, but I'll go over it briefly as outlined by Dr RR;

Armageddon involves ALL nations of Earth-- Joel 3:2, Zephaniah 3:8, Zechariah 12:3, 14:2 while the EZEKIEL invasion is only SPECIFIC nations (Ez 38:1-6)

The locations are different:
Armgdn is at the Mount of Megiddo about 60 miles NORTH of Jerusalem
EZKL takes place on the Mountains of Israel

The CASUALTIES
Amgdn is as a result of the personal appearance of Jesus
EZKL is due to a great quake, infighting among the invaders, disease (pestilence!) heavy rain, and fire and brimstone falling on the invaders. Ez 38:20-22

The JEWS
will NOT be living in security and at rest at the end of the Trib-- they will be enduring great persecution BUT
during the first half of the Trib-- the Jews WILL be in relative peace and security which is when most Bible scholars think this Ez invasion takes place-- anytime from just before the Trib, to the midpoint is where most place it.

who leads the invasions
AT ARMGDDN the BEAST, (the AC) is head of the invasion campaign. See Rev 19:19
At EZKL GOG of Magog is the head of the invading force (Ez 38:2)

Who do the armies array themselves against?
ARMGDN-- the armies are arrayed against Jesus Christ at His Second Coming.
EZKL- they are arrayed against Israel to plunder Israel.
Thanks.

I am listening to a preacher who believes the Gog/Magog War happens at the end of the Millenium, and I was thinking that the time frame doesn't make sense, based on the battle's aftermath. The site that mentioned Dr. Rhodes pointed out that the Revelation 20 "battle" ends in the enemies of God being incinerated--there will be no seven-month period of burying bodies.
 

sawas

Well-Known Member
I scanned though them, but they focus on the distinctions between Ezekiel 38 and Armageddon, and I was looking for distinction between Ezekiel 38 and the "Camp of the Saints battle".
If you are referring to Revelation 20:8-9, it would seem that those events take place at the end of the Millennial Sabbath (as implied in your OP). Are you exploring/speculating whether or not this could be the same battle as outlined in Ezekiel 38?
 

cavalier973

Well-Known Member
If you are referring to Revelation 20:8-9, it would seem that those events take place at the end of the Millennial Sabbath (as implied in your OP). Are you exploring/speculating whether or not this could be the same battle as outlined in Ezekiel 38?
I am not. Some guy I was listening to was, though.

You know how sometimes you hear a claim, and know instinctively that there's something not right about it, even if the person making the claim is using compelling argumebts backed up with evidence?

That is what I am investigating.
 
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sawas

Well-Known Member
I am not. Some guy I was listening to was, though.

You know how sometimes you hear a claim, and know instinctively that there's something not right about it, even if the person making the claim is using compelling arguments backed up with evidence?

That is what I am investigating.
Yes: "things that make you go, hmmmm". We do need to check all this stuff, even helping one another attempt to untangle points of confusion.

So, I probably should have referenced a wider selection of passages to include Revelation 20:7-9, to begin with the "loosing" of Satan at the end of the millennium. The appearance of Gog in verse 8 would appear to indicate some manner of "revival", given his reported burial as cited in Ezekiel 39:11. I've previously heard Gog described as a demon or fallen angel who might, in the end, require the more permanent resolution of Rev 20 to be stopped. Interestingly, in the original Septuagint there is/was another reference in Amos 7:1, which I've included below for reference.

Amos 7:1 - Thus has the Lord God shewed me; and, behold, a swarm of locusts coming from the east; and, behold, one caterpillar, king Gog.
Of course, there's one other mention in 1 Chronicles 5:4, regarding a son of Joel, which I've never really looked into. Either way, I think that, in the context of Ezekiel and Revelation, at least, we might be comfortable thinking of Gog as a non-human actor who has/will cause mischief at multiple points in time.
 

sawas

Well-Known Member
So @cavalier973, I spent a little time this weekend reviewing some trusted sources on this subject and would add the following thoughts for consideration. (Oh, I'm still curious about the basis for the claim you mentioned above.)

Timing of Ezekiel 38 War - Seems most likely to occur prior to Daniel's 70th Week, rather than at Amageddon (Post-Trib, Revelation 16) or Post-Millennial (Revelation 20) point in time.
  1. Magog forces principally gathered from and attack from the north(per Ezekiel 38:15),
    1. rather than "the whole world" (Revelation 16:14)
    2. or "the four quarters of the earth" (Revelation 20:8).
  2. The purpose of the Ezekiel 38 attack is to come to "the land of unwalled villages" against the "people of Israel...to take a spoil" (per Ezekiel 38:11-16),
    1. rather than to fight "the battle of that great day of God Almighty" at the very specific location of Amageddon (per Revelation 16:14-16)
    2. or to attack (presumed) believers in yet another specified location referred to as "the camp of the saints" (per Revelation 20:9).
  3. The further purpose of the Ezekiel 38 war is that God would be "magnified", "sanctified", and "known in the eyes of many nations", per Ezekiel 38:23, and (perhaps most significantly) that He would make His "holy name known in the midst of my people Israel", per Ezekiel 39:7.
    1. In contrast, the Revelation 16 battle (at Amageddon) appears to be intended to punctuate the completion of the vial judgements at a point in time (very) near to the end of Daniels 70th week (per Revelation 16:17), immediately prior to the destruction of the City of Babylon (per Revelation 18 - all), holding the "marriage supper of the lamb" (per Revelation 19:9), Christ's physical return to earth (Revelation 19:17-18), and casting of the Beast and False Prophet into "a lake of fire" (per Revelation 19:20).
    2. The purpose of the battle in Revelation 20 is to deal with Satan, having been bound for the duration of the Sabbath Millennium, loosed at the end and, finally, cast into the "lake of fire", joining the Beast and False Prophet (per Revelation 20:10).
    3. In both, God's purpose would appear (to my reading) to be solely limited to rendering judgement, not to communicate anything about Himself for any redemptive or salvific purpose, as seems clear in Ezekiel 39:7 .
  4. The forces of Ezekiel 38 are defeated by "a great shaking in the land of Israel" and "an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone" (per Ezekiel 38:18-21 as well as "fire on Magog" (per Ezekiel 39:6),
    1. rather than "voices and thunders and lightenings" with what appears to be a global earthquake and "a great hail out of heaven" (per Revelation 16:18-21)
    2. or a fire that "came down from God out of heaven" per Revelation 20:9.
  5. In the aftermath of the Ezekiel 38 war, Magog's weapons are burned "with fire for seven years" (per Ezekiel 39:9-10) and the dead will be searched and buried for a period of 7 months in order to cleanse the land, per Ezekiel 39:12-16.
    1. In contrast, the events of Revelation 16 and Revelation 20 would seem to lack either the time and/or a clear purpose for either of these activities, which would seem to clearly presume the continuing occupation of Israel through to the end of Daniel's 70th week.
    2. As such, the duration of the weapons burning would (logically) suggest timing that precedes Daniel's 70th week.
So, it's been a little while since I've gone through this particular exercise. Any efforts to clarify my read on these distinctions would, of course, be welcomed.

Note to self - still need to check the sticky posts mentioned above. I'm sure there is much duplication of effort, but I definitely benefited from doing some of my own "legwork", as it were.

Just read the first "sticky", which is a very good synopsis, I think, with several additional points that I missed in the above analysis.
 
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Spartan Sprinter 1

Formerly known as Shaun
So @cavalier973, I spent a little time this weekend reviewing some trusted sources on this subject and would add the following thoughts for consideration. (Oh, I'm still curious about the basis for the claim you mentioned above.)

Timing of Ezekiel 38 War - Seems most likely to occur prior to Daniel's 70th Week, rather than at Amageddon (Post-Trib, Revelation 16) or Post-Millennial (Revelation 20) point in time.
  1. Magog forces principally gathered from and attack from the north(per Ezekiel 38:15),
    1. rather than "the whole world" (Revelation 16:14)
    2. or "the four quarters of the earth" (Revelation 20:8).
  2. The purpose of the Ezekiel 38 attack is to come to "the land of unwalled villages" against the "people of Israel...to take a spoil" (per Ezekiel 38:11-16),
    1. rather than to fight "the battle of that great day of God Almighty" at the very specific location of Amageddon (per Revelation 16:14-16)
    2. or to attack (presumed) believers in yet another specified location referred to as "the camp of the saints" (per Revelation 20:9).
  3. The further purpose of the Ezekiel 38 war is that God would be "magnified", "sanctified", and "known in the eyes of many nations", per Ezekiel 38:23, and (perhaps most significantly) that He would make His "holy name known in the midst of my people Israel", per Ezekiel 39:7.
    1. In contrast, the Revelation 16 battle (at Amageddon) appears to be intended to punctuate the completion of the vial judgements at a point in time (very) near to the end of Daniels 70th week (per Revelation 16:17), immediately prior to the destruction of the City of Babylon (per Revelation 18 - all), holding the "marriage supper of the lamb" (per Revelation 19:9), Christ's physical return to earth (Revelation 19:17-18), and casting of the Beast and False Prophet into "a lake of fire" (per Revelation 19:20).
    2. The purpose of the battle in Revelation 20 is to deal with Satan, having been bound for the duration of the Sabbath Millennium, loosed at the end and, finally, cast into the "lake of fire", joining the Beast and False Prophet (per Revelation 20:10).
    3. In both, God's purpose would appear (to my reading) to be solely limited to rendering judgement, not to communicate anything about Himself for any redemptive or salvific purpose, as seems clear in Ezekiel 39:7 .
  4. The forces of Ezekiel 38 are defeated by "a great shaking in the land of Israel" and "an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone" (per Ezekiel 38:18-21 as well as "fire on Magog" (per Ezekiel 39:6),
    1. rather than "voices and thunders and lightenings" with what appears to be a global earthquake and "a great hail out of heaven" (per Revelation 16:18-21)
    2. or a fire that "came down from God out of heaven" per Revelation 20:9.
  5. In the aftermath of the Ezekiel 38 war, Magog's weapons are burned "with fire for seven years" (per Ezekiel 39:9-10) and the dead will be searched and buried for a period of 7 months in order to cleanse the land, per Ezekiel 39:12-16.
    1. In contrast, the events of Revelation 16 and Revelation 20 would seem to lack either the time and/or a clear purpose for either of these activities, which would seem to clearly presume the continuing occupation of Israel through to the end of Daniel's 70th week.
    2. As such, the duration of the weapons burning would (logically) suggest timing that precedes Daniel's 70th week.
So, it's been a little while since I've gone through this particular exercise. Any efforts to clarify my read on these distinctions would, of course, be welcomed.

Note to self - still need to check the sticky posts mentioned above. I'm sure there is much duplication of effort, but I definitely benefited from doing some of my own "legwork", as it were.

Just read the first "sticky", which is a very good synopsis, I think, with several additional points that I missed in the above analysis.
Well laid out and thoroughly explained , good job
 

Endangered

Well-Known Member
One event described in the Bible has been a mystery to me: the total destruction of Damascus. It seems out of character for Israel to do this.
The Gog-Magog invasion comes from the north and must cross Syria. Maybe when the storm of huge hailstones hits it brings down Russkie planes with nasty bombs onto Damascus.
So maybe the Syrians do themselves in by ignoring the Bible.
 
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sawas

Well-Known Member
One event described in the Bible has been a mystery to me: the total destruction of Damascus. It seems out if character for Israel to do this.
The Gog-Magog invasion comes from the north and must cross Syria. Maybe when the storm of huge hailstones hits it brings down Russkie planes with nasty bombs onto Damascus.
So maybe the Syrians do themselves in by ignoring the Bible.
Thanks for raising this. I'm actually slowly working my way around toward this topic and am curious to know if it might possibly be related to conjectures over Psalm 83 (by those such as Bill Salus). For those who haven't heard it, Salus argues that a conflict between Israel and it's closest neighbors will occur prior to the Ezekiel 38 war, which is what might facilitate their living safely without walls.

Maybe someone can chime in this topic and help us out before I get around to it....

This post from October in another thread by @athenasius appears (on a quick search) to be relevant and detailed. Maybe he/she can steer a bit on this?
 
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Spartan Sprinter 1

Formerly known as Shaun
Thanks for raising this. I'm actually slowly working my way around toward this topic and am curious to know if it might possibly be related to conjectures over Psalm 83 (by those such as Bill Salus). For those who haven't heard it, Salus argues that a conflict between Israel and it's closest neighbors will occur prior to the Ezekiel 38 war, which is what might facilitate their living safely without walls.

Maybe someone can chime in this topic and help us out before I get around to it....

This post from October in another thread by @athenasius appears (on a quick search) to be relevant and detailed. Maybe he/she can steer a bit on this?
Pastor Adrian or Athenasius are definitely your go to people for detailed clarifications on these matters
 
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