Gog dispensationalist vs other views

Uturn9319

Well-Known Member
So far, it appears that the Gog/Magog war of Ezekiel 38 according to dispensationlism is the correct view.
I wonder why these Gog/Magog war book authors haven't published anything recent as of 2020? They must be too busy paying attention to Coronavirus.

I must have read 30 or 40 different views and quite frankly, the only thing I found that matched the present timeline is a comment from someone on a video. Not to pat ourselves on the back, but I think we on this forum are much closer to our interpretation on this than anything else I've read.

While things could change in the middle east in a second, with all the pacts between Turkey/Iran/Russia this seems like the logical next big war.
There may be little ones in between leading up to it, but I believe this will go down sooner than later.

Thoughts?
 

MapleLeaf

Well-Known Member
I thought this war is one that ends before it really starts? I wouldn't call it the big war. Right now it seems to be one of many.

And what is the specific timeline you're referring to? I have never really heard many variations from the idea of the war happening around the beginning of the Tribulation with the only real debate being before or after the Rapture.
 

Uturn9319

Well-Known Member
I thought this war is one that ends before it really starts? I wouldn't call it the big war. Right now it seems to be one of many.

And what is the specific timeline you're referring to? I have never really heard many variations from the idea of the war happening around the beginning of the Tribulation with the only real debate being before or after the Rapture.
I should clarify. So by big I meant the amount of soliders, tanks, and such. You're right, its going to be over before it begins.

The timeline I'm referring to is:
1) some believe this war occurs pre-rapture and then rapture immediately
2) some believe this war occurs pre-rapture and then a time gap (to burn weapons) then rapture
3) some believe this war occurs after the rapture exactly before the tribulation
4) some believe this war occurs after the rapture but a time gap before the tribulation
5) some believe this war occurs after the tribulation after millennial kingdom (battle of armageddon)
6) some believe this war occurs in the middle of the tribulation
 

athenasius

Well-Known Member
So far, it appears that the Gog/Magog war of Ezekiel 38 according to dispensationlism is the correct view.
I wonder why these Gog/Magog war book authors haven't published anything recent as of 2020? They must be too busy paying attention to Coronavirus.

I must have read 30 or 40 different views and quite frankly, the only thing I found that matched the present timeline is a comment from someone on a video. Not to pat ourselves on the back, but I think we on this forum are much closer to our interpretation on this than anything else I've read.

While things could change in the middle east in a second, with all the pacts between Turkey/Iran/Russia this seems like the logical next big war.
There may be little ones in between leading up to it, but I believe this will go down sooner than later.

Thoughts?
Pretty much agree.

I still think that Damascus might act as a trigger, because of the progression from God using the IDF in Isaiah 17 to bring Israel thru (with casualties) and God's stated purpose that they would begin to turn back to Him --- on to the differences with the Gog Magog event of Ezek 38/39. In that one, God and God alone delivers Israel, not apparently using the IDF at all or at least anything they do isn't mentioned. Yet the purpose is the same. Stated more strongly than in the Isaiah 17 event. And there is the possibility that Israel is back from some war in Ezek 38/39 when GM invades. Although that could simply mean out of the ashes of WW2.

Because of God's purpose being again turned and focused back on Israel, in the wording of both Isaiah 17 and Ezek 38/39 I am personally of the mind that these occur AFTER the Rapture.

I think there is quite probably a gap of up to 3-1/2 years, from the Ezekiel 38 event to the beginning of the Tribulation just because of the burning of the weapons for 7 years (and the fleeing of most Jews who trust Christ into hiding in Petra). Dr Thomas Ice holds that position, and he and others who do (including Dr Fruchtenbaum) make very good arguments for it.

Because the Rapture is a signless event and (I always spell this wrong, sorry) Immanent event, it can happen at any time.

Because the Tribulation begins with the signing of the covenant that Daniel mentions, it doesn't HAVE to mean that the Rapture happens and in the next second the Tribulation begins. Because the Trib begins with that signature on that covenant. (that is implied thru the words Daniel uses as pre existing, and it's improved or made better in some way)

Although I am not stuck in cement on any of those thoughts-- I can entertain other possibilities and the concept that I might be wrong on one or all of my suppositions.

What cannot be moved is what the Bible says about it though. So we can't know the day or hour of the Rapture, it is both signless meaning nothing has to be fulfilled, and immanent (could happen at any time). The Trib starts with that covenant (not our Rapture, although that doesn't mean the Rapture can't happen 1 second before).
 

athenasius

Well-Known Member
Watching the players of Ezek 38/39 and the nations involved in the Damascus situation taking their places on the world stage right now is fascinating.

I was caught by some news last month out of Syria-- something Turkey was doing, and it was the very place mentioned in Isaiah. Just below Turkey. It's one of the places that the people of Damascus turn to look towards. And then terror from the sea. The sea where the pipeline is, where Turkey is probably throwing a hissy fit about right now.

That pipeline that was signed on Sunday, had an effect on the Egyptian parliament on Monday, and we all stepped a little closer to the Damascus destruction.

The various groups are ALL THERE in the news, weighing in on Turkey's encroachment like Jordan, or worrying about Iran's terrorism like Egypt-- these are mentioned in the 3 passages dealing with Damascus's destruction. Isaiah 17, Jeremiah 49 and Amos 1 (if Amos is actually dealing with this and not a previous partial destruction from earlier in the past)

Ezekiel 32:17-32 and Jeremiah 49:17-32 both deal with Iran. And Ezekiel calls it like it is, this war is about terrorism.

I think there might be something with Damascus first, but it will set the stage further for the final Ezekiel 38&39 war.

So in one sense, it's a continuation. Part one or the Prologue being Damascus, while the main event is Ezek 38.

Kind of how WW1 led to WW2, only it won't take as long, not long at all. Long enough for Israel to catch her breath maybe, recuperate, but while still in a weakened condition, they face a further larger invasion, one that they cannot fight under any circumstances, and God uses it to make HIS name known among the Gentiles

And there, that is ANOTHER clue that it's AFTER THE RAPTURE because if we were still here, us Christians who are also Gentiles KNOW HIM. And our mandate is to spread the Gospel.

Here we have GOD sending the message to unbelieving Gentiles, that HE EXISTS, that ISRAEL IS HIS, and that HE WILL DEFEND HER!

And of course His stated purpose is to draw them back into covenant relationship with Him. That Olive Branch that was cut off so that we could be grafted in, is now being put back on the olive tree.

Which begs the question, Where are the wild olive branches gone to if God is taking them OFF the cultivated Olive Root so that the branches that belong to that root are being grafted in????

Well that right there is another clue this is after the Rapture. Because I figure the wild branches, that is us, the Gentiles are with the Lord, our Saviour, for a wedding feast that we are the BRIDE at.
 

Uturn9319

Well-Known Member
Watching the players of Ezek 38/39 and the nations involved in the Damascus situation taking their places on the world stage right now is fascinating.

I was caught by some news last month out of Syria-- something Turkey was doing, and it was the very place mentioned in Isaiah. Just below Turkey. It's one of the places that the people of Damascus turn to look towards. And then terror from the sea. The sea where the pipeline is, where Turkey is probably throwing a hissy fit about right now.

That pipeline that was signed on Sunday, had an effect on the Egyptian parliament on Monday, and we all stepped a little closer to the Damascus destruction.

The various groups are ALL THERE in the news, weighing in on Turkey's encroachment like Jordan, or worrying about Iran's terrorism like Egypt-- these are mentioned in the 3 passages dealing with Damascus's destruction. Isaiah 17, Jeremiah 49 and Amos 1 (if Amos is actually dealing with this and not a previous partial destruction from earlier in the past)

Ezekiel 32:17-32 and Jeremiah 49:17-32 both deal with Iran. And Ezekiel calls it like it is, this war is about terrorism.

I think there might be something with Damascus first, but it will set the stage further for the final Ezekiel 38&39 war.

So in one sense, it's a continuation. Part one or the Prologue being Damascus, while the main event is Ezek 38.

Kind of how WW1 led to WW2, only it won't take as long, not long at all. Long enough for Israel to catch her breath maybe, recuperate, but while still in a weakened condition, they face a further larger invasion, one that they cannot fight under any circumstances, and God uses it to make HIS name known among the Gentiles

And there, that is ANOTHER clue that it's AFTER THE RAPTURE because if we were still here, us Christians who are also Gentiles KNOW HIM. And our mandate is to spread the Gospel.

Here we have GOD sending the message to unbelieving Gentiles, that HE EXISTS, that ISRAEL IS HIS, and that HE WILL DEFEND HER!

And of course His stated purpose is to draw them back into covenant relationship with Him. That Olive Branch that was cut off so that we could be grafted in, is now being put back on the olive tree.

Which begs the question, Where are the wild olive branches gone to if God is taking them OFF the cultivated Olive Root so that the branches that belong to that root are being grafted in????

Well that right there is another clue this is after the Rapture. Because I figure the wild branches, that is us, the Gentiles are with the Lord, our Saviour, for a wedding feast that we are the BRIDE at.
Great comments. Great point of view!
The Damascus situation strikes me two ways. One which you mentioned. The other is, if the invasion is from Syria from the north, the first stop is more than likely Golan Heights. The driving distance is 45 minutes. You can see Damascus from the top of the Golan Heights. If Damascus is turned to a ruinous heap and uninhabitable, if this event happens prior Ezekiel 38, how do the forces invade from the north side? (posing a question, not criticizing)

If this event happens after the rapture, then we can't be far away from it. I would suspect God would wait for the last possible second (similar to Lot)
and then rapture us out. I'm going to do some more digging. We know the IDF is current expecting an attack from Hezzbollah from Lebanon.

These mini wars is going to set up the big one. The IDF will repel them and push them back and continue bombing Iran in Syria until these nations are so frustrated they form the coalition. This year isn't over yet and neither are the surprises.
 

ragamuffin

Well-Known Member
I've been Blessed to visit Israel twice in the past couple of years. Below are a couple of photos taken from the top of Mt. Bental located in the Golan Heights. I've also included a Google Map satellite view of the area which has a 2 mile legend at the bottom right hand corner. During our visit you could hear an occasional bomb blast in the distance which sounded like fireworks not very far away at all. The short distance between the Israel border and Damascus was quite eye opening.

Overhead map showing distance between Mt. Bental and Damascus:


Photo from Mt. Bental towards Mt. Hermon towards Damascus. The valley below towards the left is the "Valley of Tears" where one of the greatest tank battle ever fought was won by Israel during the Yom Kippur war in October 1973.


Panoramic photo from Mt. Bental towards Damascus... the Syrian border is in the near distance. Mt. Hermon is just appearing on the far left of this panoramic.


Dr. Andy Woods has a book titled "Middle East Meltdown" which outlines 7 possible positions of when the Ezekiel 38-39 war may take place. His college professor espoused the view Dr. Woods believes is most likely... a view which I have adopted as well. This is a great read for those who are interested in a deeper dive on this topic:

Dr. Andy Woods - Middle East Meltdown
 
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pixelpusher

Well-Known Member
Ezekiel 38 must be post-rapture in my mind, as God says His "hot anger", fiery wrath, and people of the earth tremble at His presence, He will show His greatness and holiness and make Himself known in the sight of many nations. I reckon after the coalition takes their licking on the mountains, people will be eager to sign a covenant for peace and safety.

What did Russia just do?
 

Uturn9319

Well-Known Member
Ezekiel 38 must be post-rapture in my mind, as God says His "hot anger", fiery wrath, and people of the earth tremble at His presence, He will show His greatness and holiness and make Himself known in the sight of many nations. I reckon after the coalition takes their licking on the mountains, people will be eager to sign a covenant for peace and safety.

What did Russia just do?
Its in another topic here but "Report: Russia taking over Golan Heights in Syria to Israel's north"
 

ItIsFinished!

Blood bought child of the King of kings.
Ezekiel 38 must be post-rapture in my mind, as God says His "hot anger", fiery wrath, and people of the earth tremble at His presence, He will show His greatness and holiness and make Himself known in the sight of many nations. I reckon after the coalition takes their licking on the mountains, people will be eager to sign a covenant for peace and safety.

What did Russia just do?
Yup.
It definitely won't be during The Tribulation at any point.
Why?
That non-plausible scenario would contradict the Scriptures.
 

ItIsFinished!

Blood bought child of the King of kings.
Post rapture pre-trib for you?
As far as Ezekiel 38-39 goes, I believe it will be after the Rapture, but before The Tribulation.
Ezekiel 38-39 cannot possibly be during anytime of The Tribulation realistically nor Scripturally.
I know many believe mid-Trib. but that doesn't give enough time to burn the weaponry (Ezekiel 39:9).
Ezk.38-39 I believe ushers in the Tribulation.
It creates the platform for the AC to build off of.
 

Batman

Well-Known Member
In light of the timing prior to the rapture, just after but before the Trib, or during the Trib I wonder what Ezekiel 38:23 means to who the many nations are that will know God for his actions against the attackers............perhaps it's those that after they know they receive as the 144,000 go out, perhaps it's something else entirely. Always thought about it and never really heard anything that is a perfect tie in, but I do believe it all happens and it will make perfect sense at least after it is fulfilled.

Ezekiel 39:7 also is tricky timing wise to me b/c Israel is prophesied to now know God and no longer "pollute his name"..........but other OT scripture for sure seems to show this happening toward the end of the Trib just before the King of Kings and Lord of Lords comes down.
 

ItIsFinished!

Blood bought child of the King of kings.
In light of the timing prior to the rapture, just after but before the Trib, or during the Trib I wonder what Ezekiel 38:23 means to who the many nations are that will know God for his actions against the attackers............perhaps it's those that after they know they receive as the 144,000 go out, perhaps it's something else entirely. Always thought about it and never really heard anything that is a perfect tie in, but I do believe it all happens and it will make perfect sense at least after it is fulfilled.

Ezekiel 39:7 also is tricky timing wise to me b/c Israel is prophesied to now know God and no longer "pollute his name"..........but other OT scripture for sure seems to show this happening toward the end of the Trib just before the King of Kings and Lord of Lords comes down.
It cannot happen at any point in the Tribulation. It has to be either before or after the Rapture.
But, not during the Tribulation. What happens at the end of the Tribulation is not Ezekiel 38-39.
It would contradict Scripture.
 

Batman

Well-Known Member
It cannot happen at any point in the Tribulation. It has to be either before or after the Rapture.
But, not during the Tribulation. What happens at the end of the Tribulation is not Ezekiel 38-39.
It would contradict Scripture.

I'm not following your answer because it didn't address either of my verses with any proof of timing right before or just after the rapture, but before the Trib in light of the conditions of many nations and national Israel in response to those actions by God. Are you expecting a large multi-national revival around the globe and also that national Israel would no longer pollute His name but will still offer OT animal sacrifices and not believe the messiah and still gravitate to the AC until things collapse at the mid-Trib because of the abomination that causes desolation..........with that even not getting them to cry out for Christ nationally until the very end? I'm confused.
 

athenasius

Well-Known Member
I'm not following your answer because it didn't address either of my verses with any proof of timing right before or just after the rapture, but before the Trib in light of the conditions of many nations and national Israel in response to those actions by God. Are you expecting a large multi-national revival around the globe and also that national Israel would no longer pollute His name but will still offer OT animal sacrifices and not believe the messiah and still gravitate to the AC until things collapse at the mid-Trib because of the abomination that causes desolation..........with that even not getting them to cry out for Christ nationally until the very end? I'm confused.
This may help.

Looking at Ezek 38:16 here in the NIV it says this, bolded part my emphasis, discussed below using Strongs for the key words. The words used in the text imply that the nations have no knowledge of God (this implies the removal of the church prior to this event or at the very least that these nations and their armies have lost any knowledge of God). The action of God in doing this in their sight, is to prove HIS holiness, HIS character, in their eyes.

16 You will advance against my people Israel like a cloud that covers the land. In days to come, Gog, I will bring you against my land, so that the nations may know me when I am proved holy through you before their eyes.

Using eSword, the Strongs, in the KJV keyed version

First the So THAT part is from this in Strongs--
ma‛an

mah'-an

From H6030; properly heed, that is, purpose; used only adverbially, on account of (as a motive or an aim), teleologically in order that: - because of, to the end (intent) that, for (to, . . . ‘s sake), + lest, that, to.

Then the word nations is from GOY, meaning gentiles. can be translated HEATHEN meaning without knowledge of God.

So first off that verse establishes that these nations are made up of Unbelievers.

MAY KNOW is so that these heathen change their minds about God-- the word is Yada and it means to ascertain by seeing, to understand by being instructed, and again it implies the NOT knowing before hand.

When I shall be sanctified is from the word Qadash and it means just that. here is the Strongs on it:
qâdash

kaw-dash'

A primitive root; to be (causatively make, pronounce or observeas) clean (ceremonially or morally): - appoint, bid, consecrate, dedicate, defile, hallow, (be, keep) holy (-er, place), keep, prepare, proclaim, purify, sanctify (-ied one, self), X wholly.

The you is Gog

Before their eyes is 'ayin. Strongs has this:
‛ayin

ah'-yin

Probably a primitive word; an eye (literally or figuratively); by analogy a fountain (as the eye of the landscape): - affliction, outward appearance, + before, + think best, colour, conceit, + be content, countenance, + displease, eye ([-brow], [-d], -sight), face, + favour, fountain, furrow [from the margin], X him, + humble, knowledge, look, (+ well), X me, open (-ly), + (not) please, presence, + regard, resemblance, sight, X thee, X them, + think, X us, well, X you (-rselves).

When this verse (and others like it) are taken with the original meanings of the language they were written in by the prophet Ezekiel they don't imply any revival, but they imply a total lack of knowledge of God and the fact that God is doing this in their sight to get them to understand WHO GOD IS. This is a key to understanding the time frame that this war occurs in.

After the Rapture would fit most easily, having God remove the Church (which would be the Gentiles plus some Jews) leaving the Gentile nations without knowledge of or understanding of God and His purposes.

Before the Tribulation fits most easily because of the wording used in God's intent towards Israel-- turning to Him again.

Due to the Weapon burning problem for 7 years, it fits with a gap after the Rapture but prior to the Tribulation if such a gap will occur. Since the Jews flee to Petra half way thru (but don't pick up unburnt weapons)-- which is 3.5 years into the Trib it is logical to assume that the burning starts some 3.5 years prior to the beginning of the Trib.

Ezekiel 38:23 is the post script, the wind up, the conclusion of the whole thing. Which says:
23 And so I will show my greatness and my holiness, and I will make myself known in the sight of many nations. Then they will know that I am the Lord.’

Looking at the Strong's it's the same wording only looking at it after the fact, they will know that I am the Lord (Jehovah) The nations are still Goy but the word for many is before it, "rab" and it means abundant.

Ezekiel 39 is a recaptitulation of the same stuff in 38 only with more detail. This is common in Hebrew writing, both Old Testament and you see it used in the New Testament in Revelation.
 
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athenasius

Well-Known Member
Ezekiel 39:7 7 “‘I will make known my holy name among my people Israel. I will no longer let my holy name be profaned, and the nations will know that I the Lord am the Holy One in Israel.

This word among is usually In The Midst and it's an unusual word with a deeper meaning. it's this:
tâvek

taw'-vek

From an unused root meaning to sever; a bisection, that is, (by implication) the centre: - among (-st), X between, half, X (there-, where-) in (-to), middle, mid [-night], midst (among), X out (of), X through, X with (-in).

which means to separate-- to bisect, to sever. God is separating even among the JEWS of Israel. Dividing out HIS OWN people from the midst of the nation. Those who will follow Him.

the business about No longer let my holy name be profaned needs to be understood in the context of the Old Testament prophecies which said that they did profane His Name in their unbelief.-- it's why they were cast out for 2000 years.

"any more" is from this word:
‛ôd ‛ôd

ode, ode

From H5749; properly iteration or continuance; used only adverbially (with or without preposition), again, repeatedly, still, more: - again, X all life long, at all, besides, but, else, further (-more), henceforth, (any) longer, (any) more (-over), X once, since, (be) still, when, (good, the) while (having being), (as, because, whether, while) yet (within).

So it means repeatedly, yet again, further, henceforth, anymore.

This is a process of stopping them. It is a part of the purpose of the Tribulation period. It begins here, but continues to the end of the Trib in context with other passages referring to the 7 year long process of dealing with and refining Israel as a nation to come to the end point, which is when they acknowledge Him and mourn as for a son. The Trib time period is a 7 year long process, that is reflected in the choice of the word od.

And the nations (this repeats the same thing from back in chapter 38 for emphasis) and the word is Goy again, meaning gentiles.
Shall know Yada
That kiy (meaning cause)
 
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