Gap after Rapture & before Tribulation - Your thoughts?

usoutpost31

Well-Known Member
I had always held that view of Romans 11:25 as does Jack Kelly but I had no idea there was another differing view ........ until I googled it and was quite surprised to read a couple of interesting articles on the subject, particularly one by the Jewish Awareness Ministries (whoever they are) that was different and interesting,
IMO, in his foreknowledge the Lord does know how many will come to faith in him; but he would not put an upper limit on that number. That would suggest that salvation and grace is available, but not for all and only up to a certain point.

Not technically limited atonement but it's too close for me to be comfortable with it.
 

Andy C

Well-Known Member
IMO, in his foreknowledge the Lord does know how many will come to faith in him; but he would not put an upper limit on that number. That would suggest that salvation and grace is available, but not for all and only up to a certain point.
What difference would it really make if there is an upper limit? Once the church is raptured, grace is gone, regardless if there is an upper limit or not.

So, I will stick with my belief that once the fullness of gentiles is in, we are gone.
 

Andy C

Well-Known Member
Because the birth of the Church happened on a Jewish holiday.
You could be right, but I dont believe the rapture will fall on any Jewish holiday, at least not intentionally. Whatever moment and day the fullness of the gentiles comes in, is the day the rapture will happen. So yes, it could fall on a Jewish holiday.

Tying the rapture in with a Jewish holiday is a belief held by many, but IMO, its another broad avenue for trying to narrow down the timing of the rapture.
 

Christopher64

Active Member
Good morning all! How will those people, either Jew or Gentile, who lived (both those early before and then after His death and resurrection) and never heard of or ever had any opportunity to accept Christ be able to? Are they sitting around waiting or being ministered to right now or sort of sleeping waiting for resurrection day? Is there scripture that goes into this ?
 

Andy C

Well-Known Member
Good morning all! How will those people, either Jew or Gentile, who lived (both those early before and then after His death and resurrection) and never heard of or ever had any opportunity to accept Christ be able to? Are they sitting around waiting or being ministered to right now or sort of sleeping waiting for resurrection day? Is there scripture that goes into this ?
Im not sure I understand your question?
 

Batfan7

Well-Known Member
Good morning all! How will those people, either Jew or Gentile, who lived (both those early before and then after His death and resurrection) and never heard of or ever had any opportunity to accept Christ be able to? Are they sitting around waiting or being ministered to right now or sort of sleeping waiting for resurrection day? Is there scripture that goes into this ?

People who never had the opportunity to hear the gospel are judged based on their reception to the revelation they DO have access to. Namely, the testimony of nature and conscious.

Our Righteous Judge takes each person and Judges them based on what they did with the light they had.
 

RonJohnSilver

Well-Known Member
Good morning all! How will those people, either Jew or Gentile, who lived (both those early before and then after His death and resurrection) and never heard of or ever had any opportunity to accept Christ be able to? Are they sitting around waiting or being ministered to right now or sort of sleeping waiting for resurrection day? Is there scripture that goes into this ?
Those O.T. folks, prior to the Church Age, had the prophets, priests and whatever Jewish law codes existed at that time. Jesus, of course, was not on the scene, so the Godly believers were believing in a future redeemer as was promised by God. Their 'proof' if you will, came from their obedience in following the Jewish laws and commandments. So, their belief was not in Jesus, per se, but in a future redeemer, who was Jesus. They were looking for, anticipating, living for, that promised Redeemer. After the time of Jesus, the Church Age, now, we have the entire Bible, the Holy Spirit directing us and, of course, other believers and church teachers. After the rapture, those left will still have the entire Bible and whatever information that we have left them with, either by conversations or materials left behind. And, at some point, God will provide 'supernatural' witnesses, 144,000 who will testify (preach) for 3.5 years. And, there is reference to an angel(s) proclaiming the gospel from the heavens. And, throughout all of human history, as Paul says in Romans 1, every person can see the hand of God in nature and the human body and all of creation. He has put the knowledge or awareness of Himself into every human mind and heart so, even the most illiterate, backward person will have at least a rudimentary understanding or concept of a creator. Perhaps not all of the details that the Bible contains, but enough of a thought process that they will know that there is a Creator and that the Creator is worthy of worship. And God will judge that person on the amount of light or knowledge that they have. No one will be overlooked. Some have a lot of information, some have very little, but everyone has enough.
 

Jan51

Well-Known Member
The thing that doesn't set right with me about God having a set arbitrary number is that it sounds like Calvinism's view of predestination and salvation. Just because God knows what will happen does not mean that therefore He must have "determined" that to happen, to be the only possible outcome.

"The fullness of the Gentiles" could also mean:
When the rapture happens, the church age will be complete, and however many are among the church at that point, that is the full number of the church, meaning, thise who are saved after that will not be part of the church.

It could also mean:
The context is the national salvation of Israel, which will not happen until the end of the tribulation. Even after the church age ends, Gentiles will continue to be saved, so it seems that the "fullness of the Gentiles" might not happen till the end of the tribulation. It may not be a phrase that is synonymous with the rapture. Does it mean "when God begins dealing with Israel again"? Or as the context implies, is it referring to the time when Israel is saved?
 

Andy C

Well-Known Member
The thing that doesn't set right with me about God having a set arbitrary number is that it sounds like Calvinism's view of predestination and salvation. Just because God knows what will happen does not mean that therefore He must have "determined" that to happen, to be the only possible outcome.

"The fullness of the Gentiles" could also mean:
When the rapture happens, the church age will be complete, and however many are among the church at that point, that is the full number of the church, meaning, thise who are saved after that will not be part of the church.

It could also mean:
The context is the national salvation of Israel, which will not happen until the end of the tribulation. Even after the church age ends, Gentiles will continue to be saved, so it seems that the "fullness of the Gentiles" might not happen till the end of the tribulation. It may not be a phrase that is synonymous with the rapture. Does it mean "when God begins dealing with Israel again"? Or as the context implies, is it referring to the time when Israel is saved?
It could mean that.

I dont see how the fullness of gentiles can be tied in with a calvinistic view. Calvinism claims God predetermined exactly would would, or would not believe. Fullness of gentiles refers to God has a number that must be meant before the rapture, but it does not mean He chose who would make up that number.
 
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usoutpost31

Well-Known Member
What difference would it really make if there is an upper limit? Once the church is raptured, grace is gone, regardless if there is an upper limit or not.

So, I will stick with my belief that once the fullness of gentiles is in, we are gone.
It's the idea that there are only so many people that can be saved before the Rapture that I disagree with.

Reading about how Heaven rejoices over every repentant sinner, I don't believe there is a point where the Father says, "OK, we've found enough lost sheep, let's close the door now." If every person on earth repented, there would be none that he would turn away.

So I don't think there's a point where Heaven's citizenship reaches a certain number and then they string across the velvet rope because they're at capacity. I believe for the same reasons that God brought the Flood and destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, that is the trigger for when and how the Tribulation is finally brought upon the earth.
 

Andy C

Well-Known Member
It's the idea that there are only so many people that can be saved before the Rapture that I disagree with.

Reading about how Heaven rejoices over every repentant sinner, I don't believe there is a point where the Father says, "OK, we've found enough lost sheep, let's close the door now." If every person on earth repented, there would be none that he would turn away.

So I don't think there's a point where Heaven's citizenship reaches a certain number and then they string across the velvet rope because they're at capacity. I believe for the same reasons that God brought the Flood and destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, that is the trigger for when and how the Tribulation is finally brought upon the earth.
Your comments make sense, so who knows? What we do know is there will be a point in time where the door closes.
 

Wings Like Eagles

Well-Known Member
Some include the Psalms 83 war as something that must occur before the Tribulation. I'm not totally convinced that there actually is a Psalms 83 war. That conflict was never considered before Bill Salus highlighted it in one of his books, Israelistine, I think. There may be an actual war, I'm just not convinced of it. Salus is, I think, a solid believer and not someone just trying to sell a book. And he may be right, someone has to be the first to discover something. I'm just not sure that his conclusions are correct. That said, the areas that are mentioned in the Psalm 83 passage are the strongholds of today's terrorist groups...ISIS, Hamas, Hezbollah, etc. And, it's possible that the destruction of Damascus mentioned in Isaiah is part of that, after all, Israel just days ago, bombed Syria, so that could explode quickly. I guess my point is that this Psalm conflict seems to me to be part of the ongoing battle that Israel and the Arabs are having and shouldn't have any bearing or relation to the other events in the Bible. Rather, it's part of the wars and rumors of wars. I think I've gotten off track here so I'll conclude with saying I think there's a gap, maybe significant and the Gog/Magog war is post rapture but pre Trib and the Psalms conflict has no bearing.
I'm with you in not being convinced that the Psalm 83 "war" is indeed a war. It could be an operation to clean the terrorists out of that area but whether it is exactly a full-scale war, I'm a bit dubious.

The two prime movers in the Middle East are Iran and Saudi Arabia. They hate each other religiously (Arabians=Sunni Muslim; Iranians=Shiite Muslim) and also hate each other because both want control of the M.E. And then there are Turkey and Russia as the wildcards. If Putin is still in power when/if radical Muslims or other parties, do a major attack on Damascus, Russia will move to protect the 250,000 Orthodox Christians there. Reportedly, Putin despises al-Hassad (privately, calls him a "pig") but props up al-Hassad's regime because the Syrian regime has promised to protect the Syrian Orthodox Christians. Interesting times.
 

Flyfisher

Well-Known Member
It's the idea that there are only so many people that can be saved before the Rapture that I disagree with.

Reading about how Heaven rejoices over every repentant sinner, I don't believe there is a point where the Father says, "OK, we've found enough lost sheep, let's close the door now." If every person on earth repented, there would be none that he would turn away.

So I don't think there's a point where Heaven's citizenship reaches a certain number and then they string across the velvet rope because they're at capacity. I believe for the same reasons that God brought the Flood and destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, that is the trigger for when and how the Tribulation is finally brought upon the earth.
This makes it sound like God doesn’t know how many will be saved. He already knows who will be saved and who will not be. What is hard for us to understand is that he knows the exact number and that exact number will trigger the rapture at exactly the right moment that fits his timeline for everything. The tribulation time has been set, which means the rapture time has been set which means a specific number of believers is set. We just don’t know what the dates are or the number is. God does because he already knows what choices everyone will make.
 

Jan51

Well-Known Member
I don't see any problem with the rapture at any moment and a very small gap. It's possible it won't happen till things get dicey for the church, but it's also possible it could come out of the blue, like today. In order for there to be a small gap of time, that means a number of things would have to happen rapidly, which is certainly possible.

If it happened today, the whole world would experience immediate chaos, including the crashing of the world economy. We already know that the globalists are prepared to take immediate advantage of any crisis--they have plans already in place that would be immediately implemented. We know that plans for the ten-nation system have been in place for years, and could also be implemented immediately. The AC rises from among the ten and knocks out three--that could all happen within a matter of days. Gog-Magog could also happen immediately and be over in a matter of days. There is no reason to think these things need take months or years.
 

Andy C

Well-Known Member
I don't see any problem with the rapture at any moment and a very small gap. It's possible it won't happen till things get dicey for the church, but it's also possible it could come out of the blue, like today. In order for there to be a small gap of time, that means a number of things would have to happen rapidly, which is certainly possible.

If it happened today, the whole world would experience immediate chaos, including the crashing of the world economy. We already know that the globalists are prepared to take immediate advantage of any crisis--they have plans already in place that would be immediately implemented. We know that plans for the ten-nation system have been in place for years, and could also be implemented immediately. The AC rises from among the ten and knocks out three--that could all happen within a matter of days. Gog-Magog could also happen immediately and be over in a matter of days. There is no reason to think these things need take months or years.
Yes, I agree it could be a shorter gap than I think. I dont think all the steps you laid out could happen that quickly, especially immediately after hundreds of millions of people disappear. I just hope and pray were long gone before it gets too close to the finalization of the Ten Kingdoms.

Good post Jan, I hate it when you make me think, especially past 7pm....
 

Jan51

Well-Known Member
Yes, I agree it could be a shorter gap than I think. I dont think all the steps you laid out could happen that quickly, especially immediately after hundreds of millions of people disappear. I just hope and pray were long gone before it gets too close to the finalization of the Ten Kingdoms.

Good post Jan, I hate it when you make me think, especially past 7pm....
Well, I suspect they are well-prepared for the mass disappearance. Demons have been channeling messages for decades about how the UFO's will be coming to do this very thing.
 
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