Free Choice Vs. God's Plan

[Chris]

http://www.gracethrufaith.com/ask-a-bible-teacher/free-choice-vs-gods-plan

Free Choice Vs. God's Plan
Ask a Bible Teacher

Q. I am a Christian with a question. I know there is free choice given to us by God. I know the hairs on our head are known to him and our days are known and he has a plan. With the shooting at Virginia Tech it is free choice for the person who did the killings, but is it in Gods plan for all 30 random people to be killed?

A. God, who knows the end from the beginning, knew this would happen. But the shooter is still accountable for making the choice to kill those people, and the people who died will go to Heaven or Hell based on choices they made.

Knowing something will happen is not the same as making it happen, and evil men use their freedom of choice to do evil things, so God didn't make this happen. Until the Lord comes back and takes over, this world is under the control of the Evil One, (1 John 5:19) and consequently we're all subject to things like this. He's the one to blame.

Why doesn't the Lord put a stop to it? He's patient, not wanting any to be lost, but for all to come to repentance. In the mean time our enemy keeps things stirred up in his effort to steal as many souls as possible while He can. Our best defense is to make the choice for Jesus as soon as possible in our lives, so if we're ever victimized by such an evil situation as this, we'll wind up in a better place.

 

[Ruth]

Thank you for posting this Chris. Sadly, there are many churches that teach 'predestination' as a blanket theology that everything - even the evil - is in God's plan.

I didn't know any difference for a long time until I heard Dave Hunt teach about free will and then the movie Bruce Almighty (strangely enough) helped me too - to realize that what I had been taught in the Presbytarian church for many years was not what others believed and was not right.

I never knew there were two sides to that discussion. I think that is what made me the most angry is that they never gave me a choice to look at scripture through all sides and let the Holy Spirit teach me what was truth. Instead, they decided for me and it caused me many years of anguish.

I had been taught that the horrible things that had happened to me in my life were planned by God. How was I supposed to love a God who planned that for me? Rick Warren's book, also ironically, brought this all to the forefront for me to see what was wrong.

When they had a Bible study at my church on the PDL, I immediately started questioning some of the thinking taught in his book. I had started reading the Bible for myself with prayerful requests asking the Lord to teach me. And what I was finally seeing in the scriptures did not equal what the PDL and then I found out - the Presybetarian church was teaching.

That is when I realized that there is only one true teacher of His word and that is the Holy Spirit. If we ask Him - He is faithful to each us as He prepares our heart for each lesson in our walk. Just as any Father teaches His children.

We will never have all the answers, but we will always have the answers we need at the time we need them.

Matthew 10:19
But when they arrest you, do not worry about what to say or how to say it. At that time you will be given what to say,

When it is important - the Lord will always give the knowledge and wisdom needed for His children.

But blanket predestination is a philosophy of men and we are warned about that:

Colossians 2:8
See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ.

 

[lightbeamrider]

Free choice vs God's plan

Isaiah 45:7 The One froming light and darkness, Causing well being and creating evil; I am the Lord who does all these. According to Rom.13:1...there is no authority except from God and those which exist are established by God. Paul here is writing spec. about the Roman govt. which, to say the least, was corrupt and evil. A govt which considered Paul a criminal and which eventually had him killed. Since God establishes all authority that means the authority of satan is delegated to satan by God. Was reminded of Luke 13:1-5 when reading above two posts. In these verses Jesus describes two events in which men were killed by Pilate and another in which 13 men were killed by a falling tower. Jesus say's in effect don't think these men died because they were more evil than you but unless u repent u shall all likewise perish. Now u can extrapulate this to the Virginia incident. Do not think they died because they were more evil than u but unless u repent u shall all likewise perish. Perhaps, Jesus, reading the crowd responded in this manner because of their false assumptions. Namely... "They must have been killed because they were evil." Note Jesus does not explain the why of these two events. Evil things happened to Joseph in Genesis. Evil things happened to Job. (considered by many to be the first book written in the Old testament, not Genesis) Either way the problem of evil is addressed right from the get go in scripture. We may not like or understand it all but it is nevertheless addressed. As for the whole pre destination free will of man debate which goes on and on and on. The only conclusion this writer comes to is if one starts from a position of the free will of man than it is man who decides ultimately, his fate. If one starts from a position of the Sovereignty of God over all things than one comes to the conclusion of predestination. The free will of man brings him to the soveignty of God. Unlike us, God is not restricted by our concepts of time and space. For God knows the beginning from the end. God is the beginning and the end. If we have done evil in our past we should not be surprised if evil is visited upon us. If we have not done evil in our past we should not be surprised if evil comes upon us as it did to Job and Joseph. This time of evil is temporary! Evil will be done away! Sincerely: lightbeamrider

 

[Ruth]

1 John 1:8
If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

1 Timothy 1:15
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst.

 

[Robbinson]

I have tremendous respect for Dave Hunt, cited in one of the earlier replies, (and have read, and learned from his writings). To be candid, I don't know the answer to the question of whether God creates or permits evil (and the whole concept of free will v. predestination (arminian thought v. calvinisim) is a subject that has been debated among Christians for hundreds of years (and I imagine will continue to be so debated until Christ returns) - and I agree that we should not only be taught "one way" and that we should read the scriptures and try to gleam the answers from God's Word with the help of the Holy Spirit. I'm somewhere in the "middle" on this one - I do believe in man's "free will" to act for good or bad - but I concede God's soverignty and abilitly to permit or cause bad things to happen on a micro and/or macro level - if that is His will. (That doesn't mean its His will on a micro level whenever someone misbehaves). I would point out that there are many verses in the Bible which suggest that God is Soverign and that there are circumstances where evil and/or bad things happened as part of His purpose (rather than by the free will of mankind).

Just a few for us all to think about (taken from John' Piper's Book - Desiring God - I highly recommend it - a great read for another perspective - I try to read both sides of the debate on many of these difficult doctrine issues to keep an open mind):

"Our God is in the heavens; he does all that he pleases" (Psalm 115:3)

"The LORD brings the counsel of the nations to nothing; he frustrates teh plans of the peoples. The counsel of the LORD stands forever, the plans of his heart to all generations." (Psalm 33:10-11)

"I am God, and there is no other, I am God and there is none like me, declaring the end from the begniing and from ancient times things not yet done, saying 'My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose" (Isiaiah 46:9-10)

"His dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom endures from generation to generation; all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, and he does according to his will among the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand or say to him, "What have you done?" (Daniel 4:34-35)

"Who has spoken and it came to pass unless the Loard has commanded it? Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that good and bad come?" (Lamentations 3:37-38)

"Shall we receive good from God, and shall we not receive evil?" (Job 2:10)

"This Jesus, delivered up accoarding to the definate plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men." (Acts 2:23)

"For God has put it into their hearts to carry out his purpose by being of one mind and handing over their royal power to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled" (Revelation 17:17)

 

[Homesick]

I never quite understood the problems people have with this issue. God is all powerfull, all knowing. He created all and knows how it all works. He also exists outside of our concept of time. He knew the choice Adam would make when he created him and He ALLOWED It. He didn't make adam choose sin, but he knew it would happen and he allowed it.

Also, look to the book of Job. Did God cause the misery that occured in Jobes life? Absolutely not! This book holds the key to the issue of evil on the earth. God created Satan, Satan CHOSE evil, God didn't force it on him. But in effect, by creating Satan God did create evil, and this is where all evil has its roots. God allowed Satan to test Job, not because Job deserved it, but for Gods own purpose for Jobs good and to show us where evil comes from. God NEVER causes evil, but He does allow it for His purposes, He doesn't make willy nilly decisions. When we have trial in our life, it doesn't come from God, but you can rest assured that there is a purpose behind it, that He will use the evil for good. So when you experience trial, take comfort knowing that it is in the hands of God, that He alone is in control and that your not being picked on. There is some reason for trial and you must look to Him to overcome it. Satan wants to try us to destroy us, but the Lord would never allow those who love Him to be destroyed, but He will allow allow us to be tried if there is some good to come from it.

 

[ann s.]

Quote from Homesick: "He also exists outside of our concept of time."......


That's a very good thing to know....

I listened to a cd on Gen. once by Chuck Missler....very interesting...of couse Missler lost me a couple of times... but understanding Homesick's statement clears up lots of questions.

sorry, hope that I didn't get off subject....

 

[Homesick]

Quote from Homesick: "He also exists outside of our concept of time."......


That's a very good thing to know....

I listened to a cd on Gen. once by Chuck Missler....very interesting...of couse Missler lost me a couple of times... but understanding Homesick's statement clears up lots of questions.

sorry, hope that I didn't get off subject....

Glad I could hlp Ann. Sometimes because our brains are so limited its hard to grasp the idea that God did indeed create everything, including time. We are given a clue where it says "and there was evening and morning, the first day. There was no progression of time as we know it. Again we are reminded in scripture that God ALWAYS existed and ALWAYS will. Science is only beginning to understand that time as we know it is limited with the theories on "wormholes" , Black holes" etc. Again I would like to add that true unbiased science is not in disagreement with scripture at all. God being the one who created time, has no problem knowing the end from the beginning because He isn't bound by time like we are. Its like goldfish in a goldfish bowl. The goldfish can't begin to understand what goes on outside the goldfish bowl, he has never been there, his knowledge is limited. (We being the Goldfish)

 

[lightbeamrider]

There is a biblical basis for a God who creates evil and predestination. Evil was not created by satan for satan can create nothing. Besides Isaiah 45:7 u have Isaiah 31:2 and 47:11. U also have Amos 3:6..."if evil occurs in the city has not the Lord done it?" It is God who declares to satan Job is good and righteous. It is God who offers up Job to satan. Have u (satan) considered my servant Job? Also where is the sin in Joseph in Genesis? All that has happened to me in my past does not even come close to the things Joseph had to endure in his life. All that has happened to me pales in comparsion to the suffering of others alive today in other countries who are maltreated and barely surviving. Its not about "me" anymore. Christianity is about removing "self" from center. Galatians 2:20.
Been reading the latest Einstein bio by Isaacson. It is the third Einstein bio read by this writer. Anyways Einstein had some interesting thing to say about space and time. Einstein, when asked for a simplified explanation of relativity responded, "It was formally believed that if all material things disappeared out of the universe, time and space would be left. According to the relativity theory, however, time and space disappear together with all things." Time and space is temporal and created constructs. Before Einstein time and space was believed to be eternal. Even sceintists have figured that out. Einstein as we all know was not a theologian. Time is measured according to circumstance. An example of this was viewed on the science channel in which an imaginary space ship left earth and traveled into space at nearly light speed. Under these circumstances 6 months travel time at near light speed would equal 700 yrs on earth. Go figure!

Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world
The blood dimmed tide is loosed and everywhere the ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst are full of passionate intensity
Surely some revelation is at hand
Surely the second comming is at hand.....WB Yeats.....Second Comming....
IN Christ Lightbeamrider

 

[Homesick]

True objective, unbiased science is never at odds with scripture. If man but studied scripture he would find the basis for scientific discoveries.

An argument has been made against when people were [persecuted by the church for not believing the world was flat etc. However, there is absolutely no basis for the idea of the world being flat or the sun revolving around the earth etc. in scripture. It was when the church joined itself to the wisdom of the world at that time that it got off track in the area of the physical workings of the world amoung other things. It became the enforcer of the flawed view of the status quo instead of the light of the world which it is supposed to be. We are witnessing the same thing today in regards to such things homosexuality etc. Scripture on the issue in this case is very clear, but instead of being a light in a sea of darkness we see the church joining itself to the common "wisdom" of the day. Not only joining it but advancing the agenda. Scripture is very clear that homosexuality is not only a choice, but a choice made by those who have fallen to an advanced state of immorality. Do we hear the church standing strongly for this? No, most of what we hear from the church is wishy washy, indecisive mumbo jumbo if not outright denial of the truth of scripture in its attempts to join itself with the world, not God. Truly the description of the church as the great harlot is a very accurate one.

There is nothing new under the sun, the church has played the harlot before, is doing so now and will continue to do so, but the word of God stands true.

 

[Adopted]

I find this discussion to be very interesting and would like to add my thoughts as my first post.

All science can do is explain how God set up our universe. With this in mind, I ask the following question about any Scientific theory that is put forth by man: Does this theory line up with the Word of God? If so, then the theory is correct. If not, then it is not.

Case and Point: It is now proposed that "Dinosaurs evolved into Birds". Does this theory line up with the Word of God? No, for we are told in Gen. 1:29 And God said, "Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the expanse of the sky." NIV Thus, by the Word of God, Birds were created before Dinosaurs. Therefore, man's theory is incorrect because God's Word is infallable.

It is only through the study of The Word of God and the leading of The Holy Spirit that we know what is true and what is not.

 

[Homesick]

I find this discussion to be very interesting and would like to add my thoughts as my first post.​

All science can do is explain how God set up our universe. With this in mind, I ask the following question about any Scientific theory that is put forth by man: Does this theory line up with the Word of God? If so, then the theory is correct. If not, then it is not.​

Case and Point: It is now proposed that "Dinosaurs evolved into Birds". Does this theory line up with the Word of God? No, for we are told in Gen. 1:29 And God said, "Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the expanse of the sky." NIV Thus, by the Word of God, Birds were created before Dinosaurs. Therefore, man's theory is incorrect because God's Word is infallable.​

It is only through the study of The Word of God and the leading of The Holy Spirit that we know what is true and what is not.​

Excellent first post adopted! This is how we should all look at the "worlds wisdom". As in the case of the world is flat theory vs. round world. The church SHOULD have used the same criteria, there is no direct reference made to the shape of the world so the church should have remained nuetral but instead it embraced the worlds wisdom with gusto and basicly gave it more weight than the word of God. When there is no mention of something in scripture we need to look for physical evidence before we form an opinion, this is supposed to be the noble goal of science, UNBIASED searching for how the world "ticks". THEORIES like evolution are just that, THEORIES, and evolution actually goes against the word of God AND physical evidence, it is biased in the extreme and should be rejected but again we see many, including the catholic churches official position embracing the worlds wisdom, whenever this has happened they have been proven wrong, foolish.

 

[Adopted]

this is supposed to be the noble goal of science, UNBIASED searching for how the world "ticks"

UNBIASED - not biased or prejudiced; fair; impartial.

I do not believe that Science should be impartial to The Word of God. That is precisely how it has produced theories that do not line up with The Word of God. By being impartial to the Word of God, Science does not look to see where the fallacy occurred that caused the theory to be contrary to The Word of God.

When man chooses to ignore The Word of God for the sake of IMPARTIALITY, the result is a fallacy.

 

[Homesick]

UNBIASED - not biased or prejudiced; fair; impartial.

I do not believe that Science should be impartial to The Word of God. That is precisely how it has produced theories that do not line up with The Word of God. By being impartial to the Word of God, Science does not look to see where the fallacy occurred that caused the theory to be contrary to The Word of God.

When man chooses to ignore The Word of God for the sake of IMPARTIALITY, the result is a fallacy.

I agre that a CHRISTIAN should always view science through the lense of scripture, but modern science is supposed to be UNBIASED, this is what they they say, and scripture can stand up to unbiased science anyday. If all scientific exploration were conducted from a christian viewpoint non believers could rightly disregard the results as potentialy biased. We live in a world of unbelievers and believers, unbiased science always points to the reality of a creator and could be valuable in pointing non believers to Christ, that is exactly why science has been hijacked and skewed. Notice that they fight to keep intelligent design from being taught in the classroom. If you put the two "theories" side by side the winner, to the unbiased mind would normally be intelligent design, evolution is simply shot full of holes, it doesn't hold up to scrutiny. So of course the powers that be don't want children to be given a choice.

I am in favor of UNBIASED science because scripture stands up to it and has nothing to fear from it. However as Christians we always need to evaluate science from a scriptural perspective especially because modern science is not unbiased, too often it has an evil agenda even though it touts itself as being unbiased.
So I will have to disagree that science being impartial is what has brought about theories such as evolution, once again if you examine it it is clearly bad science. Its a clear bias against scripture that has given theries like evolution, not impartiality.

 

[Adopted]

I agre that a CHRISTIAN should always view science through the lense of scripture, but modern science is supposed to be UNBIASED, this is what they they say, and scripture can stand up to unbiased science anyday. If all scientific exploration were conducted from a christian viewpoint non believers could rightly disregard the results as potentialy biased. We live in a world of unbelievers and believers, unbiased science always points to the reality of a creator and could be valuable in pointing non believers to Christ, that is exactly why science has been hijacked and skewed. Notice that they fight to keep intelligent design from being taught in the classroom. If you put the two "theories" side by side the winner, to the unbiased mind would normally be intelligent design, evolution is simply shot full of holes, it doesn't hold up to scrutiny. So of course the powers that be don't want children to be given a choice.

I am in favor of UNBIASED science because scripture stands up to it and has nothing to fear from it. However as Christians we always need to evaluate science from a scriptural perspective especially because modern science is not unbiased, too often it has an evil agenda even though it touts itself as being unbiased.
So I will have to disagree that science being impartial is what has brought about theories such as evolution, once again if you examine it it is clearly bad science. Its a clear bias against scripture that has given theries like evolution, not impartiality.

I believe we are in agreement. Modern Science seems to be out to prove that God does NOT exist. That was the whole point behind the Chaos Theory. That theory came apart when the Scientific community had to admit that Order would never result from Chaos unless there was an unseen "force" at work. Thus, Chaos could only come from Order when the unseen "force" was removed. Instead of seeing that the unseen "force" was God, Modern Science started looking for another theory. :

 

[Homesick]

I believe we are in agreement. Modern Science seems to be out to prove that God does NOT exist. That was the whole point behind the Chaos Theory. That theory came apart when the Scientific community had to admit that Order would never result from Chaos unless there was an unseen "force" at work. Thus, Chaos could only come from Order when the unseen "force" was removed. Instead of seeing that the unseen "force" was God, Modern Science started looking for another theory. :

yep, thats exactly what I was talking about. When man seeks understanding of the physical world inevitably the answers point to a creator. Scripture says that no man has an excuse, the entire universe points to Him and it does. I happen to love science because it is so amazing and because a good appreciation of honest science will lead you to God every time. Thinking themselves wise by rejecting the idea of a creator, scientists today have become fools practicing what basicly amounts to a false religion instead of good, hard, objective science. In the past even most intelligent non believers recognized the wisdom within the pages of scipture. Now they have reduced science to a joke. They constantly have to reverse themselves when old "facts" are proven wrong. Thats what I really resent. You know how they teach theories as facts. Not just things like evolution but lots of stuff. Science no longer bears any semblence of objectivity which is supposed to be the essence of science. But the good news is there are still some good honest objective folks out there its just that the scientific community will not let them be heard.

And yes I think we are in agreement, we were just looking at it from two different viewpoints.

 

[Me4Him]

Ge 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

Let me ask a couple of questions,

1. "WHY" would God, in his foreknowledge, go ahead and create a world he knew would repent/grieve him for creating???

2. "IF" God can recreate/restore everything he created, what is there to "Repent/Grieve over????

3. "WHAT" is the one thing in this world that God can not, or I should say will not, "Restore"???

The answer to the first question is "LOVE".

"LOVE" can't be "programmed" into a person, it is a "FREE WILL CHOICE" of the individual,

Just as God is "FREE" to chose whom he will love, so are we, that's the "nature of Love".

Question two,
If God is going to have a "heaven" (new earth) where LOVE exist, then a "CHOICE" had to be offer to man, in spite of God's foreknowledge that some would perish against his will, that's the part that God repented/grieved over.

Question three:
The only thing in this world that God can/will not "restore" is a "LOST SOUL" that has "chosen" not to "LOVE GOD".

Would God "predestine" some souls to hell than say it repented/grieved him, I don't think so.

 

[Homesick]

Well I'm not quite sure exactly what you are saying in most of your post but as far as this comment, I have to comment.

Would God "predestine" some souls to hell than say it repented/grieved him, I don't think so.

It is not God who predestines people to hell, they do that on their own but God is aware when He creates them that hell is where they will end up. I'am not sure for what purpose these people are created but as the scriptures state the clay has no right to try to tell the potter what to do. One thing Rick Warren gets right is that every human being is created for a purpose, there are no accidents and this applies to the unsaved as well as the saved. He has His reasons but as mere clay we cannot expect to understand them. Scripture tells us that He works ALL things to the good of those who love them who its safe to assume that even evil has a purpose in the world and once they have served their purpose it is entirely possible for God to grieved about making them. Have you never had to make hard decisions about something and wish you didn't have to? Take for example killing a sick or wounded animal. I have had to do it many times in my life because it was the right thing to do but that does not mean it doesn't grieve me to do it. I usually end up crying like a baby. To reduce God to some smiling senile old man who does not punish the guilty is to deny the true character of God and make a fool out of yourself thinking you are wise. Our ways are not His ways, we simply don't understand all of His purposes. God gives His creations every chance to avoid destruction. Knowing our weakness He makes it as easy as simple belief and repentance but even then most will refuse and God knows this even before He creates them. So why does He create them when they are doomed? I don't know but I do know that His ultimate purpose is the good of those who love him. So like when a parent must punish a child, the children have to accept that the parent has their ultimate good at heart even though they don't understand why this has to be done. God is patient, loving, kind etc. but he is also rightous, just, and willing to make the tough choices even when it grieves Him. He is not a smiling senile old man who will not punish those who refuse Him. And we have no right to second guess Him or complain, we are simply clay that the potter can use as He sees fit.

This is where faith as a little child comes in. It doesn't mean unquestioning, blind, thoughtless belief, it means TRUST! It means that when we don't understand we trust Him to do what is right. Just as a good child does to just and loving parent. Questioning, examination, etc. of ones faith is a good thing, this is how we mature, but we have to trust Him when there are things we don't understand, not complain when He doesn't conform to our way of thinking.

 

[Robert Cragg]

Free Choice

Through the Holy Spirit God places a calling on our lives, yes he knows our choice, but we have a free
will to choose God or reject him. Not making a choice is the same as rejecting him. As far as why these terrible things happening to good people, there is one simple answer. Because when sin entered the world all creation even the very soil was corrupted. I know this does not always comfort people like when my Grand Daughter died. God does not attack people, this is all the the work of satan. It is still hard to understand but we have to except it. For a true story example this professionaly husband and wife Christian Song writers and singers lost their 8 year old Daughter.
The wife just could not except it. She said she was mad at God for many years and asked why why why. Finally one day she was in the kitchen when she said a voice spoke to her very loud. What was said was if I told you why you would not understand and even if you did you would not except the anwser anyways.
Thank You,
Robert