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I too come from RCC family and so does my husband and we have come out from it. Jesus says , I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. John 14:6
I too come from RCC family and so does my husband and we have come out from it. Praise God! Jesus says , I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. John 14:6
I am not here to promote Catholicism, but rather to gain a better understanding of your beliefs and give you a better understanding of mine. Jesus prayed "that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me" in John 17:21, and I only want Christians to be more unified. The first step is understanding each other. By championing Christian unity, I am not trying to convert you all, since you seem to only let certain people on this forum (you're going to have a tough time making a Protestant out of me if you ban me for trying to understand you better and showing why I believe what I do). I would also appreciate if you hear me through, and give me warnings before you ban me. I will repeat that I am not here to convert you, just to build understanding. I'm sure you would appreciate me making an effort to understand you, and I would appreciate the same from you (I'll do my best to abide by the golden rule here ).
Give me reasons not to be Catholic and I'll convert to Protestantism. I have not seen any good reasons yet, but I'd be happy to hear them. I want to know the truth if I'm not following it, but you have to give me reasons not to be Catholic.
The "Cult of Rome" comprises over half of Christianity, with 1.1 billion members out of 2.1 billion total Christians. The word "cult" has connotations that don't match up with the Catholic Church. The Church is not secretive, nor does it try to control its members.
You say that being a Christian involves believing in Jesus' atonement on the cross solely for my salvation. That is indeed what I believe. You also say that that salvation has nothing to do with the Church or Mary saving me. That happens to be exactly what I believe. Here is a quote from the official Catholic Catechism, with the paragraph number so you can look it up if you don't trust me :
So we are not saved through the Church. Mary was only a human being, albeit a very holy and pure human being (she had to be, being the mother of God!), so there is no way we could be saved through her.
You must also understand that the Catholic teaching of salvation by works doesn't quite mean we earn our way to heaven. Salvation is a gift, made
possible through Christ's sacrifice on the cross. This sums up what we believe on the subject:
Hail Mary, Co-Redeemer?
Though denied by a Vatican spokesman, it has been widely reported in the media recently that Pope John Paul II may be about to make an infallible proclamation, recognizing Mary as the co-redeemer of the human race. Though a long-time Catholic doctrine, such a declaration would elevate the belief to the level of dogma. This would establish Mary's role as co-redeemer as part of the "deposit of faith," a divinely revealed truth, not simply a theological conclusion. The following excerpt from The Gospel According to Rome explains what the Church of Rome means by Mary's work of redemption and why this teaching is unbiblical. Bracketed numbers are cross-references to the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
According to the Roman Catholic Church, when Mary accepted God's invitation for her to bear His Son, she ". . . was already collaborating with the whole work her Son was to accomplish" (1):
The Father of mercies willed that the Incarnation should be preceded by assent on the part of the predestined mother, so that just as a woman had a share in bringing about death, so also a woman should contribute to life. . . . Rightly, therefore, the Fathers see Mary not merely as passively engaged by God, but as freely cooperating in the work of man's salvation through faith and obedience. For, as St. Irenaeus says, she "being obedient, became the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race." Hence not a few of the early Fathers gladly assert with him in their preaching: "the knot of Eve's disobedience was untied by Mary's obedience: what the virgin Eve bound through her disbelief, Mary loosened by her faith." Comparing Mary with Eve, they call her "Mother of the living," and frequently claim: "death through Eve, life through Mary." - - Second Vatican Council(2)
According to the Roman Catholic Church, Mary's participation in the incarnation was only the beginning of her role in salvation. The Church teaches that "it was God's design that the Blessed Virgin Mary, apparently absent from the public life of Jesus, should assist him when he was dying nailed to the Cross."(3) United with Christ, Mary offered Him as a sacrifice to God on the cross:
She it was who, immune from all sin, personal or inherited, and ever more closely united with her Son, offered him on Golgotha to the Eternal Father together with the holocaust of her maternal rights and motherly love. . . . - - Mystici Corporis(4)
Not only did Mary offer her Son to God, but she remained at the cross to suffer with Christ [964]:
Thus the Blessed Virgin advanced in her pilgrimage of faith, and faithfully persevered in her union with her Son unto the cross, where she stood, in keeping with the divine plan, enduring with her only begotten Son the intensity of his suffering, associated herself with his sacrifice in her mother's heart, and lovingly consenting to the immolation of this victim which was born of her. - - Second Vatican Council(5)
According to the Church, Mary's sufferings were so intense that they brought her to the very threshold of death. She, says the Church, "participated with Jesus Christ in the very painful act of redemption"(6):
Mary suffered and, as it were, nearly died with her suffering Son; for the salvation of mankind she renounced her mother's rights and, as far as it depended on her, offered her Son to placate divine justice; so we may well say that she with Christ redeemed mankind. - - Inter Sodalicia(7)
Thus Mary, in a subordinate role to Christ, had a "part with him in the redemption of the human race."(8) She is, therefore, called by the Church the "the co-operatrix in man's redemption,"(9) "our coredemptor."(10) For at the cross, Mary triumphed "utterly over the ancient serpent."(11)
Following the death and resurrection of Christ, says the Church, Mary was a major force in the spread of the gospel [965]:
It is no exaggeration to say that it is due chiefly to her leadership and help that the wisdom and teachings of the Gospel spread so rapidly to all the nations of the world in spite of the most obstinate difficulties and most cruel persecutions and brought everywhere in their train a new reign of justice and peace. - - Adiutricem Populi(12)
Finally, the Roman Catholic Church teaches that when Mary's life on earth was completed, God miraculously took her into heaven. There He crowned her Queen of Heaven and Earth [966]:
The Blessed Virgin Mary is to be called Queen not only on account of her divine motherhood but also because by the will of God she had a great part in the work of our salvation. . . . In this work of redemption the blessed Virgin Mary was closely associated with her Christ. . . . Just as Christ, because he redeemed us, is by a special title our King and Lord, so too is Blessed Mary, our Queen and our Mistress, because of the unique way in which she co-operated in our redemption. She provided her very substance for his body, she offered him willingly for us, and she took a unique part in our salvation by desiring it, praying for it, and so obtaining it. . . . - - Ad Coeli Reginam(13)
There is One Redeemer, Not Two
Photo to right: Notice the blasphemous nail scared prints in Mary's hands.
Scripture is clear that the Lord alone is our redeemer. To Israel God proclaimed, "I, the Lord, am your Savior, and your Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob" (Isaiah 49:26). The New Testament Scriptures reveal that it is in God's "beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins" (Colossians 1:13-14). God justifies sinners "through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus" (Romans 3:24).
The Church's claim that Mary offered Christ "on Golgotha to the Eternal Father"(14) contradicts Scripture. The Bible says that Christ "offered Himself without blemish to God" (Hebrews 9:14).
Similarly, there is no biblical support for the Roman Catholic claim that Mary "with Christ redeemed mankind."(15) The Church says, speaking of Mary:
In her, the many and intense sufferings were amassed in such an interconnected way that they were not only a proof of her unshakable faith but also a contribution to the Redemption of all.
. . . it was on Calvary that Mary's suffering, beside the suffering of Jesus, reached an intensity which can hardly be imagined from a human point of view but which was mysteriously and supernaturally fruitful for the Redemption of the world. - - Salvifici Doloris(16)
Here the Church, rather than picturing Mary as a grateful redeemed sinner at the feet of her Savior, portrays her as making "a contribution to the Redemption of all"(17) through her own sufferings. In the words of the Second Vatican Council [968]:
She conceived, brought forth, and nourished Christ, she presented him to the Father in the temple, shared her Son's sufferings as he died on the cross. Thus, in a wholly singular way she cooperated by her obedience, faith, hope and burning charity in the work of the Savior in restoring supernatural life to souls. - - Second Vatican Council(18)
Genesis 3:15
Some Catholic scholars point to Genesis 3:15 in support of the Church's teaching of Mary as the co-redeemer. In many Roman Catholic versions of the Bible, such as the Douay Rheims, the standard Roman Catholic English Bible until the middle of the twentieth century, God's curse upon Satan reads:
I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel. - - Genesis 3:15 (Douay Rheims)
Based on this verse, many statues and paintings of Mary show her crushing a serpent under her foot--a graphic representation of her role as co-redeemer. This imagery is also found in Catholic documents:
Hence, just as Christ, the Mediator between God and man, assumed human nature, blotted the handwriting of the decree that stood against us, and fastened it triumphantly to the cross, so the most holy Virgin, united with him by a most intimate and indissoluble bond, was, with him and through him, eternally at enmity with the evil serpent, and most completely triumphed over him, and thus crushed his head with her immaculate foot. - - Ineffabilis Deus(19)
This imagery, however, is based upon a faulty translation of Genesis 3:15 from the Latin texts of the Vulgate Bible, the official Bible of the Roman Catholic Church since the fourth century. Until recently, the Latin Vulgate served as the base text for all Roman Catholic translations, including the English Douay Rheims Bible.
In the Hebrew text, the original language of the Old Testament, the subject of Genesis 3:15 is masculine, not feminine. Therefore, rather than reading "she shall crush thy head" (Genesis 3:15, Douay Rheims), the verse should be translated "He shall bruise you on the head" (Genesis 3:15, NASB). The verse is prophetically speaking of Christ's victory over Satan, not Mary's.
Though recent Roman Catholic translations have corrected the error, Roman Catholic theology remains the same.
Luke 2:34-35
Another passage that the Church uses to support its teaching of the "union of the mother with the Son in the work of salvation"(20) is Luke 2:34-35. Joseph and Mary had taken the infant Jesus to Jerusalem to present Him in the temple. Simeon, a righteous man who was looking for the coming of the Messiah, took the child into his arms and said to Mary,
Behold, this Child is appointed for the fall and rise of many in Israel, and for a sign to be opposed--and a sword will pierce even your own soul--to the end that thoughts of many hearts may be revealed. - - Luke 2:34-35
According to the Church, the sword here speaks of Mary's participation with Christ in suffering for our redemption [618]. She, wrote Pope John Paul II, made "a contribution to the Redemption of all"(21):
. . . it was on Calvary that Mary's suffering, beside the suffering of Jesus, reached an intensity which can hardly be imagined from a human point of view but which was mysteriously and supernaturally fruitful for the Redemption of the world. - - Salvifici Doloris(22)
The Roman Catholic claim that Mary suffered for the redemption of the world is unjustified for three reasons:
1. Mary Did Not Suffer for Sin
As Mary watched her Son hanging on the cross, she undoubtedly suffered greatly. However, the same could be said of the others present who loved the Lord and witnessed His sufferings: John, Mary Magdalene, Salome, Mary the wife of Clopas (John 19:25-27, Mark 15:40). We might describe the nature of this kind of sorrow as the suffering of compassion.
It is also likely that Mary, even as Christ, endured the taunts and ridicule of evil men. She did so willingly, knowing that God had called her to serve as the mother of Jesus. Scripture describes this kind of persecution as suffering for the sake of righteousness (1 Peter 3:14).
These two kinds of suffering, however, must be distinguished from what Christ experienced on the cross. He suffered for sin. Christ, "having become a curse for us" (Galatians 3:13), became the object of God's wrath as the Father "caused the iniquity of us all to fall on Him" (Isaiah 53:6). This the Lord Jesus, "smitten of God, and afflicted" (Isaiah 53:4), suffered in solitary agony:
Reproach has broken my heart, and I am so sick.
And I looked for sympathy, but there was none,
And for comforters, but I found none.
- - Psalm 69:20
Apparently, neither Mary nor any of the others at the foot of the cross were even aware that before them the Son of God was suffering for the sins of the world.
2. Mary Did Not Suffer Death for Sin
Despite the intensity of Christ's physical sufferings, the Scriptures consistently link our redemption not to his pain, but to His death. Paul writes that "we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son" (Romans 5:10). The writer of Hebrews reminds us that "a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions" (Hebrews 9:15). John tells us that Jesus "released us from our sins by His blood" (Revelation 1:5).
The reason, of course, is that the penalty for our sin is death (Genesis 2:17, Romans 6:23). A life, therefore, had to be given to redeem us. That is why Christ came: "to give His life a ransom for many" (Mark 10:45). Christ "died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, in order that He might bring us to God. . . ." (1 Peter 3:18). Nowhere do the Scriptures teach that we were redeemed by Christ's righteous life, faithful obedience, or even His sufferings at the hands of cruel men.
Here again the sufferings of Mary fall short of being redemptive. The Church claims that "Mary suffered and, as it were, nearly died with her suffering Son,"(23) that she "in her heart died with him, stabbed by the sword of sorrow."(24) But the fact of the matter is that Mary did not die on Calvary. Christ alone gave His life for our redemption.
3. Mary Was Not Qualified to Redeem Mankind
Even if Mary had died on Calvary, her death would not have redeemed anyone. As we saw in the last chapter, Mary herself was a sinner. As such, she was guilty before God and unfit to redeem anyone. The same is true of every other man or woman. Scripture teaches:
No man can by any means redeem his brother,
Or give to God a ransom for him--
For the redemption of his soul is costly,
And he should cease trying forever
- - Psalm 49:7-8
That is why God sent His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, to redeem us. He alone was qualified. Since He was the Son of God, His life was of infinite value and able to redeem all mankind. Having been made "in the likeness of men" (Philippians 2:7), He was capable of both representing humanity before God and physically dying (Hebrews 2:14-17). Since He was without sin, His life was an acceptable sacrifice (1 Peter 1:19; 2:22). Christ alone, therefore, deserves the title of Redeemer. "Worthy is the Lamb that was slain" (Revelation 5:12).
Endnotes
1 Catechism of the Catholic Church, 973.
2 Second Vatican Council, "Dogmatic Constitution on the Church," no. 56.
3 Pope Benedict XV, Inter Sodalicia. This quote and some of the others which follow can be found in a collection of statements by recent popes compiled by Francis J. Ripley, Mary, Mother of the Church (Rockford, IL: Tan Books, 1969).
4 Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis.
5 Second Vatican Council, "Dogmatic Constitution on the Church," no. 58.
6 Pope Pius XI, Explorata Res.
7 Pope Benedict XV, Inter Sodalicia.
8 Pope Pius XII, Ad Coeli Reginam.
9 Pope Leo XIII, Ubi Primum.
10 Decree of the Sacred Congregation of the Holy Office, "Indulgences," June 26, 1913, published in Acta Apostolicae Sedis. Also refer to Henry Denzinger, Sources of Catholic Dogma (St. Louis, MO: Herder Book Co., 1957), p. 502, article 1978 a and footnote 2; A. Tanquerey, A Manual of Dogmatic Theology (New York, NY: Desclee Company, 1959), vol. 2, p. 108-109; and Ludwig Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma (Rockford, IL: Tan Books and Publishers, 1960), p. 212-213.
11 Pope Pius IX, Ineffabilis Deus.
12 Pope Leo XIII, Adiutricem Populi.
13 Pope Pius XII, Ad Coeli Reginam.
14 Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis.
15 Pope Benedict XV, Inter Sodalicia.
16 Pope John Paul II, Salvifici Doloris, no. 25.
17 Pope John Paul II, Salvifici Doloris, no. 25.
18 Second Vatican Council, "Dogmatic Constitution on the Church," no. 61.
19 Pope Pius IX, Ineffabilis Deus.
20 Second Vatican Council, "Dogmatic Constitution on the Church," no. 57.
21 Pope John Paul II, Salvifici Doloris, no. 25.
22 Pope John Paul II, Salvifici Doloris, no. 25.
23 Pope Benedict XV, Inter Sodalicia.
24 Pope Leo XII, Jucunda Semper.
So all it means is that we believe good works are necessary to enter heaven. Indeed, our works must be based on faith, otherwise they are in vain. We know from St. Paul's letters that those who do evil will not go to heaven. Basically, salvation by works means that we have to avoid doing evil, and instead do good as Christ taught us in order to go to heaven. We are still saved through Christ, but we must, through faith, become Christ-like if we are to go to heaven.
Thus, we must avoid evil to inherit the kingdom of God, and that is what the Catholic teaching of faith-based works to get to heaven is all about.
God bless, and please don't ban me.
OSAS, The Whole Story | GracethrufaithGracethrufaith
Let’s Begin At The Beginning
It’s time to set the record straight once and for all. What does it take to be saved? I think the best answer to that question is the one the Lord gave in John 6:28-29.
Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”
Here was a perfect opportunity to list all the things we have to do to meet God’s requirements. Jesus could have rattled off the 10 commandments. He could have repeated the Sermon on the Mount. He could have listed any number of admonitions and restrictions necessary to achieve and maintain God’s expectations of us. But what did He say? “Believe in the one He has sent.” Period. It was a repeat of John 3:16, confirming that belief in the Son is the one and only requirement for salvation.
For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
A few verses later in John 6:38-40 He said that this wasn’t just His idea, as if that wouldn’t be enough, but that His Father was in complete agreement. And not only would our belief suffice to provide us with eternal life, but that it was God’s will that Jesus lose none of those who believe. You and I have been known to disobey God’s will, but has Jesus ever done so? And isn’t He the one who’s been charged with the responsibility for keeping us? Let’s read it.
“For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.” (John 6:38-40)
Just in case we missed this promise, Jesus made it again even more clearly in John 10:28-30. “I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.” The Father and the Son have both accepted responsibility for our security. Once we’re in Their hands, no one can get us away.
I have purposely only used words straight from the Lord’s own mouth to make this case because I can already hear the choruses of “Yes Buts” mounting as those who refuse to take them at face value get ready to trot out their favorite verses denying Eternal Security, misinterpreted though they are.
The one characteristic of God’s that gives us the most comfort is knowing that He can’t lie or change His mind or contradict Himself. He can’t say something in one place and then say something entirely different in another. He’s consistent. If He says that we’re saved solely because of our belief in Him, and that He’s accepted responsibility for keeping us so, then we can count on that. As we’ll see, anything in the Bible that seems to contradict these simple, straightforward statements has to be talking about something else.
But first, since He puts so much emphasis on belief, let’s take a closer look at that word. What does He mean when He says “believe”? It must be more than just a casual thing because reliable statistics show, for example, that 85% of those who come forward to “receive the Lord” at a crusade or other evangelistic outreach never form any connection with a church or Bible Study or in any other way demonstrate a relationship with the Lord afterward.
And Jesus spoke of the seed that fell on rocky places. He said, “This is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away.” (Matt. 13:20-21) If these people were saved and then fell away, all His promises above have been broken. There must be more. So what does it mean to believe?
The Greek word for believe is “pistis.” According the Strong’s Concordance, it’s a “conviction or belief respecting man’s relationship to God and divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and holy fervor born of faith and joined with it.” In connection with the Lord Jesus, it means “a strong and welcome conviction or belief that Jesus is the Messiah, through whom we obtain eternal salvation in the kingdom of God.”
The Apostle Paul gave us valuable insight into the nature of this belief. He wrote, If you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. (Romans 10:9-10)
This isn’t just some intellectual thing that carries us away on the words of a captivating speaker, only to leave us flat a short time later. It’s a conviction that’s formed deep in our heart, the realization that Jesus is not just a man. He’s the Lord Himself, and He took upon Himself the penalty due us for our sins, which is death. And to prove that God counted His death as sufficient, He raised Jesus from the dead to be seated beside Him in the Heavenly realms. (Ephes. 1:20) Since God can’t dwell in the presence of sin, and since the wages of sin is death, every one of our sins has to have been paid for. If even one remained unpaid, Jesus would still be in the grave. We have to believe that Jesus rose from the grave in order to believe that we will.
It’s that kind of belief that gets you saved and keeps you that way, because it sets in motion a chain of events that’s irreversible. There are four links in this chain. You supply two and the Lord supplies two. You hear and believe, and the Lord marks and guarantees.
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory. (Ephesians 1:13-14)
The word translated “deposit” is a legal term. Today we would say Earnest Money. It’s a down payment that constitutes a legal obligation to follow through with the purchase. If you’ve ever bought any Real Estate, you’re familiar with the term. If not, here’s another example. It’s like we’ve been put on “lay away.” The price has been paid and we’ve been taken off the display shelf until the one who has purchased us returns to claim us. In the mean time we cannot be bought by anyone else, because we legally belong to the one who has paid the deposit. “You are not your own,” we’re told. “You were bought with a price.” (1 Cor. 6:19-20)
All of this happened at our first moment of belief, before we could do anything to either earn or lose our position. The man on the cross beside Jesus is the prototype for this transaction. Having done something bad enough to get himself executed, he was promised a place in Paradise solely because he believed in his heart that Jesus was the Lord of a coming Kingdom.
Paul made it even clearer when he repeated this incredible promise in 2 Cor. 1:21-22. Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
This time He removed all doubt as to just Who it is that keeps us saved. Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. What could be clearer?
Proudly Catholic said:Thus, we must avoid evil to inherit the kingdom of God, and that is what the Catholic teaching of faith-based works to get to heaven is all about.
God bless, and please don't ban me.
Catholic friend, we have many members here who were Catholics themselves and know that religion. They left the RCC when they heard the Good News of salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Jesus Christ alone. You have nothing to say to them - they know the Truth.
You also have nothing to offer the rest of us. We will never turn to the RCC. God has given us the freedom to be Spirit-led and -empowered to live our Christian lives, the assurance of our free salvation and all the other good and perfect gifts we have. All glory to God!! \ 0 /
The only reason you gave for being here is, in essence, to proselytize for the RCC and we will not have that under our roof. You know that by reading and having agreed to abide by our posting rules - notably #4, 5, 6 and 24 - in order to have posting privileges.
There have been other Catholics before you who tried this, you can see that and how it went. We were gracious to allow those, there's no reason for us to keep reinventing the wheel and keep allowing rule-breaking.
I'm afraid I cannot continue dialogue with people who do not show respect for what I believe, or the choices I have made. I had a post deleted that was simply quotes from the Bible that showed the basis for certain beliefs of mine. I didn't promote them, just quoted Scripture, which all of you believe is infallible as well. I believe things for a reason. I don't want to debate and convince you that I'm right, I just want to show you why I believe B, despite A, so you can tell me why you believe C, despite B. That's all. That's why I quoted Scripture, and told you what I can believe, so you're better able to answer my questions. Since you seem to have no desire to answer my questions, I must leave. Hopefully other Protestants will be more willing to tell me why they don't believe certain things, despite certain Scriptural passages.
God bless you all, brothers and sisters in Christ, and good luck on your spiritual journeys.
I'm afraid I cannot continue dialogue with people who do not show respect for what I believe, or the choices I have made.
I had a post deleted that was simply quotes from the Bible...
God bless you all, brothers and sisters in Christ, and good luck on your spiritual journeys.
I'm afraid I cannot continue dialogue with people who do not show respect for what I believe, or the choices I have made. I had a post deleted that was simply quotes from the Bible that showed the basis for certain beliefs of mine. I didn't promote them, just quoted Scripture, which all of you believe is infallible as well. I believe things for a reason. I don't want to debate and convince you that I'm right, I just want to show you why I believe B, despite A, so you can tell me why you believe C, despite B. That's all. That's why I quoted Scripture, and told you what I can believe, so you're better able to answer my questions. Since you seem to have no desire to answer my questions, I must leave. Hopefully other Protestants will be more willing to tell me why they don't believe certain things, despite certain Scriptural passages.
God bless you all, brothers and sisters in Christ, and good luck on your spiritual journeys.