For Our Roman Catholic Friends

Micki

MARANATHA!!
Hi, I am a former catholic now saved by grace. I have some verses for your consideration, the first being...

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

There are no other writings in existence, including the catechism of the church, which can make this same claim in Truth. On that basis alone The Word of God alone is true and trustworthy. Anything which contradicts or reinterprets The Word of God is in error.

Romans 3:4 4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

Yahweh is trustworthy and has never and shall never lie. I know of no man or woman who can make this same claim.

Paul warned us to reject the traditions of men.

Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

In the time of Yeshua, men gave much more honor and attention to the laws impossible to keep in the Babylonian Talmud rather than in the Torah. Yeshua had harsh words for those who put other words and commandments above the Torah:

Mark 7:6-9 6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.
Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

Finally, there was one very honorable group of people, the Bereans.

Acts 17:10-11 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.
These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

The Bereans did not accept the words of Paul and Silas without going to the Holy Scriptures in order to verify they were speaking The Truth. Not only did they study the scriptures, they did so on a daily basis. The Word was a precious thing to them and they treated it accordingly.

The Bible is a complete book. It contains all that is needed for salvation. You cannot add to something that is full and complete. You cannot speak for God unless He is authorizing you to do so and I have never seen or heard the rcc claim that their catechism is Divinely inspired. As it is not Divinely inspired by an inerrant God, it cannot be considered on the same basis and level as The Bible.

You brought up that it is a sin to worship Mary and this is true. I was taught in catechism that we are to adore Mary and not worship her. A few years ago I looked up the meaning of the word adore, Merriam Webster includes the following as one of the definitions: "to worship or honor as a deity or as divine". The rcc seems to be ignoring the meaning of the word "adore".

I was taught the doctrine of purgatory as well. I understand not all catholics embrace this doctrine anymore but nonetheless, it is a doctrine which the rcc created and holds to. The simple explanation is that people go to purgatory to do penance for unconfessed venial sins. This is a false doctrine on many levels, first, there is no place in The Bible which mentions purgatory. Second, there is this verse:

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Read all of Romans 8, it confirms the believers are righteous, considered children and heirs. This leaves no room for punishment in purgatory. Further, it is reaffirmed that we can do absolutely nothing to achieve our salvation in the following verses:

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Finally, Yeshua disdained something that very closely resembles catholic confession:

Luke 12:3 Therefore whatsoever ye have spoken in darkness shall be heard in the light; and that which ye have spoken in the ear in closets shall be proclaimed upon the housetops.

This verse convinces me we have no business confessing our sins for the purpose of forgiveness to anyone but Yahweh. Unconfessed sin cannot keep a believer out if heaven, but it can keep them far from Yahweh. David was called "a man after God's heart". This was because he was on fire for Yahweh and willing to confess his sins, faults and weaknesses.

Further proof that purgatory doesn't exist is given by Paul who said:

2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

If absent from the body is present with the Lord, there is no room for purgatory.

The next thing I bring up is only to give you some food for thought. You chose the name "Proudly Catholic". This is a boast that you are catholic, that you are glorying in the fact you are catholic. This does not acknowledge a Savior, but a religion. The Word says:

2 Corinthians 2:17 But he that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

I do not deny there are saved roman catholics, but I do deny the roman catholic church and it's numerous false doctrines which seek to replace the miracle of grace and the Divine sacrifice of Yeshua on the cross. I welcome any discussion, but I will consider only Those Words which we know are given under Divine Inspiration, those found only in that Holy Book known as The Bible.


Philippians 4:20 Now unto God and our Father be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
 

livin_in_the_Son

Well-Known Member
I was raised as a catholic...that religion teaches that Mary remained a virgin after Jesus was born....they deny the biblical truth that Jesus had brothers by claiming those brothers were actually cousins. That is false. The bible proclaims them as His brothers...who is anyone to say that the bible is wrong?

The catholic catechism also proclaims the assumption of Mary...her bodily resurrection into heaven, because she was so holy that she didn't deserve to die and decay...and while that sounds good, it portrays other awesome godly people as being worthless because they did die and decay. (I.e. Moses)

Plus the catholic church proclaims people as saints. They have a regimented set of qualifications to declare these sinful people as saints. Such as attributing "miracles" to said saints. Except that God is the one who heals, the one who saves...no man can do that...the catholic church doesn't attribute these miracles to God, but to a man, or woman.

Plus the catholic church says that baptism washes away sin. This heresy just kills me because just a month ago I attended a catholic baptism, and the priest said "when I ask if you reject satan, say yes, or no...it doesn't matter" How is that biblically correct? Oh, let me guess...that isn't the church's position...except that priest was trained by the same church.

I'm sorry that your pride is keeping you from the truth, but truth is truth...and the catholic church doesn't speak the truth.
 

anath

I Love the Lord
I too come from RCC family and so does my husband and we have come out from it. Praise God! Jesus says , I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. John 14:6
 

Micki

MARANATHA!!
I too come from RCC family and so does my husband and we have come out from it. Jesus says , I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. John 14:6

Amen Anath, it's not through any church or religion, but by our Savior, High Priest and Mediator, Yeshua HaMashiach Ben Yahweh, Jesus The Annointed One Son of God!
 

livin_in_the_Son

Well-Known Member
I too come from RCC family and so does my husband and we have come out from it. Praise God! Jesus says , I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. John 14:6

My husband and I have come out of the rcc. So has my older sister. I thank God for that. I could never be "good enough" to earn heaven according to the rcc doctrine. What was the point of Jesus' crucifixion, if it wasn't enough to absolve my sins?

The rcc still has Jesus on the cross...just look at the crucifix...they don't have the joy in His resurrection.
 

iSong6:3

Well-Known Member
Proudly - We are not trying to convert you to Protestantism. We have no interest in that at all. None of us ourselves were converted to Protestantism - we were converted to JESUS. We're simple people here, it's Jesus, what He did on the cross and the Bible for us. We'll be praying for you, know that.

To repeat, we have many members who are former Catholics. We do not need to be schooled on RCC practices.

Your second post was deleted as you continued on in spite of two warnings. Again, we won't have evangelizing for the RCC under the guise of "wanting to learn" or "ecumenism.". See posting rule #5, just change "atheist" to "Catholic."

Truly, there can be no unity of beliefs between us as long as you hold to Catholic doctrine. And this is not a debating site. If that's what you're interested in doing, you should go to one of those instead.

You will not be banned if you abide by the posting rules. If you persist in breaking them, yes, you will be banned. Your choice. :hat:
 

Chris

Administrator
Staff member
I am not here to promote Catholicism, but rather to gain a better understanding of your beliefs and give you a better understanding of mine. Jesus prayed "that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me" in John 17:21, and I only want Christians to be more unified. The first step is understanding each other. By championing Christian unity, I am not trying to convert you all, since you seem to only let certain people on this forum (you're going to have a tough time making a Protestant out of me if you ban me for trying to understand you better and showing why I believe what I do). I would also appreciate if you hear me through, and give me warnings before you ban me. I will repeat that I am not here to convert you, just to build understanding. I'm sure you would appreciate me making an effort to understand you, and I would appreciate the same from you (I'll do my best to abide by the golden rule here :)).

Give me reasons not to be Catholic and I'll convert to Protestantism. I have not seen any good reasons yet, but I'd be happy to hear them. I want to know the truth if I'm not following it, but you have to give me reasons not to be Catholic.

You can find tons of reasons to dump the RCC nonsense here:

The Roman Catholic Church - Roman Catholicism

The "Cult of Rome" comprises over half of Christianity, with 1.1 billion members out of 2.1 billion total Christians. The word "cult" has connotations that don't match up with the Catholic Church. The Church is not secretive, nor does it try to control its members.

Yes, it is a shame that it seems like "half" of christianity is involved in a cult. :doh: :tsk: But then the Bible tells us that few find the narrow gate, while many find the wide path of destruction.

You see anything in this graphic that is not true?

catholic-cult_zps3f40c711.png


You say that being a Christian involves believing in Jesus' atonement on the cross solely for my salvation. That is indeed what I believe. You also say that that salvation has nothing to do with the Church or Mary saving me. That happens to be exactly what I believe. Here is a quote from the official Catholic Catechism, with the paragraph number so you can look it up if you don't trust me ;):

So we are not saved through the Church. Mary was only a human being, albeit a very holy and pure human being (she had to be, being the mother of God!), so there is no way we could be saved through her.

You must also understand that the Catholic teaching of salvation by works doesn't quite mean we earn our way to heaven. Salvation is a gift, made
possible through Christ's sacrifice on the cross. This sums up what we believe on the subject:

Here's some more RCC catechism and quotes for you:

Hail Mary, Co-Redeemer?

Though denied by a Vatican spokesman, it has been widely reported in the media recently that Pope John Paul II may be about to make an infallible proclamation, recognizing Mary as the co-redeemer of the human race. Though a long-time Catholic doctrine, such a declaration would elevate the belief to the level of dogma. This would establish Mary's role as co-redeemer as part of the "deposit of faith," a divinely revealed truth, not simply a theological conclusion. The following excerpt from The Gospel According to Rome explains what the Church of Rome means by Mary's work of redemption and why this teaching is unbiblical. Bracketed numbers are cross-references to the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

According to the Roman Catholic Church, when Mary accepted God's invitation for her to bear His Son, she ". . . was already collaborating with the whole work her Son was to accomplish" (1):

The Father of mercies willed that the Incarnation should be preceded by assent on the part of the predestined mother, so that just as a woman had a share in bringing about death, so also a woman should contribute to life. . . . Rightly, therefore, the Fathers see Mary not merely as passively engaged by God, but as freely cooperating in the work of man's salvation through faith and obedience. For, as St. Irenaeus says, she "being obedient, became the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race." Hence not a few of the early Fathers gladly assert with him in their preaching: "the knot of Eve's disobedience was untied by Mary's obedience: what the virgin Eve bound through her disbelief, Mary loosened by her faith." Comparing Mary with Eve, they call her "Mother of the living," and frequently claim: "death through Eve, life through Mary." - - Second Vatican Council(2)

According to the Roman Catholic Church, Mary's participation in the incarnation was only the beginning of her role in salvation. The Church teaches that "it was God's design that the Blessed Virgin Mary, apparently absent from the public life of Jesus, should assist him when he was dying nailed to the Cross."(3) United with Christ, Mary offered Him as a sacrifice to God on the cross:

She it was who, immune from all sin, personal or inherited, and ever more closely united with her Son, offered him on Golgotha to the Eternal Father together with the holocaust of her maternal rights and motherly love. . . . - - Mystici Corporis(4)

Not only did Mary offer her Son to God, but she remained at the cross to suffer with Christ [964]:

Thus the Blessed Virgin advanced in her pilgrimage of faith, and faithfully persevered in her union with her Son unto the cross, where she stood, in keeping with the divine plan, enduring with her only begotten Son the intensity of his suffering, associated herself with his sacrifice in her mother's heart, and lovingly consenting to the immolation of this victim which was born of her. - - Second Vatican Council(5)

According to the Church, Mary's sufferings were so intense that they brought her to the very threshold of death. She, says the Church, "participated with Jesus Christ in the very painful act of redemption"(6):

Mary suffered and, as it were, nearly died with her suffering Son; for the salvation of mankind she renounced her mother's rights and, as far as it depended on her, offered her Son to placate divine justice; so we may well say that she with Christ redeemed mankind. - - Inter Sodalicia(7)

Thus Mary, in a subordinate role to Christ, had a "part with him in the redemption of the human race."(8) She is, therefore, called by the Church the "the co-operatrix in man's redemption,"(9) "our coredemptor."(10) For at the cross, Mary triumphed "utterly over the ancient serpent."(11)

Following the death and resurrection of Christ, says the Church, Mary was a major force in the spread of the gospel [965]:

It is no exaggeration to say that it is due chiefly to her leadership and help that the wisdom and teachings of the Gospel spread so rapidly to all the nations of the world in spite of the most obstinate difficulties and most cruel persecutions and brought everywhere in their train a new reign of justice and peace. - - Adiutricem Populi(12)

Finally, the Roman Catholic Church teaches that when Mary's life on earth was completed, God miraculously took her into heaven. There He crowned her Queen of Heaven and Earth [966]:

The Blessed Virgin Mary is to be called Queen not only on account of her divine motherhood but also because by the will of God she had a great part in the work of our salvation. . . . In this work of redemption the blessed Virgin Mary was closely associated with her Christ. . . . Just as Christ, because he redeemed us, is by a special title our King and Lord, so too is Blessed Mary, our Queen and our Mistress, because of the unique way in which she co-operated in our redemption. She provided her very substance for his body, she offered him willingly for us, and she took a unique part in our salvation by desiring it, praying for it, and so obtaining it. . . . - - Ad Coeli Reginam(13)


There is One Redeemer, Not Two

Photo to right: Notice the blasphemous nail scared prints in Mary's hands.

Scripture is clear that the Lord alone is our redeemer. To Israel God proclaimed, "I, the Lord, am your Savior, and your Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob" (Isaiah 49:26). The New Testament Scriptures reveal that it is in God's "beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins" (Colossians 1:13-14). God justifies sinners "through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus" (Romans 3:24).

The Church's claim that Mary offered Christ "on Golgotha to the Eternal Father"(14) contradicts Scripture. The Bible says that Christ "offered Himself without blemish to God" (Hebrews 9:14).

Similarly, there is no biblical support for the Roman Catholic claim that Mary "with Christ redeemed mankind."(15) The Church says, speaking of Mary:

In her, the many and intense sufferings were amassed in such an interconnected way that they were not only a proof of her unshakable faith but also a contribution to the Redemption of all.

. . . it was on Calvary that Mary's suffering, beside the suffering of Jesus, reached an intensity which can hardly be imagined from a human point of view but which was mysteriously and supernaturally fruitful for the Redemption of the world. - - Salvifici Doloris(16)

Here the Church, rather than picturing Mary as a grateful redeemed sinner at the feet of her Savior, portrays her as making "a contribution to the Redemption of all"(17) through her own sufferings. In the words of the Second Vatican Council [968]:

She conceived, brought forth, and nourished Christ, she presented him to the Father in the temple, shared her Son's sufferings as he died on the cross. Thus, in a wholly singular way she cooperated by her obedience, faith, hope and burning charity in the work of the Savior in restoring supernatural life to souls. - - Second Vatican Council(18)

Genesis 3:15

Some Catholic scholars point to Genesis 3:15 in support of the Church's teaching of Mary as the co-redeemer. In many Roman Catholic versions of the Bible, such as the Douay Rheims, the standard Roman Catholic English Bible until the middle of the twentieth century, God's curse upon Satan reads:

I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel. - - Genesis 3:15 (Douay Rheims)

Based on this verse, many statues and paintings of Mary show her crushing a serpent under her foot--a graphic representation of her role as co-redeemer. This imagery is also found in Catholic documents:

Hence, just as Christ, the Mediator between God and man, assumed human nature, blotted the handwriting of the decree that stood against us, and fastened it triumphantly to the cross, so the most holy Virgin, united with him by a most intimate and indissoluble bond, was, with him and through him, eternally at enmity with the evil serpent, and most completely triumphed over him, and thus crushed his head with her immaculate foot. - - Ineffabilis Deus(19)

This imagery, however, is based upon a faulty translation of Genesis 3:15 from the Latin texts of the Vulgate Bible, the official Bible of the Roman Catholic Church since the fourth century. Until recently, the Latin Vulgate served as the base text for all Roman Catholic translations, including the English Douay Rheims Bible.

In the Hebrew text, the original language of the Old Testament, the subject of Genesis 3:15 is masculine, not feminine. Therefore, rather than reading "she shall crush thy head" (Genesis 3:15, Douay Rheims), the verse should be translated "He shall bruise you on the head" (Genesis 3:15, NASB). The verse is prophetically speaking of Christ's victory over Satan, not Mary's.

Though recent Roman Catholic translations have corrected the error, Roman Catholic theology remains the same.
Luke 2:34-35

Another passage that the Church uses to support its teaching of the "union of the mother with the Son in the work of salvation"(20) is Luke 2:34-35. Joseph and Mary had taken the infant Jesus to Jerusalem to present Him in the temple. Simeon, a righteous man who was looking for the coming of the Messiah, took the child into his arms and said to Mary,

Behold, this Child is appointed for the fall and rise of many in Israel, and for a sign to be opposed--and a sword will pierce even your own soul--to the end that thoughts of many hearts may be revealed. - - Luke 2:34-35

According to the Church, the sword here speaks of Mary's participation with Christ in suffering for our redemption [618]. She, wrote Pope John Paul II, made "a contribution to the Redemption of all"(21):

. . . it was on Calvary that Mary's suffering, beside the suffering of Jesus, reached an intensity which can hardly be imagined from a human point of view but which was mysteriously and supernaturally fruitful for the Redemption of the world. - - Salvifici Doloris(22)

The Roman Catholic claim that Mary suffered for the redemption of the world is unjustified for three reasons:
1. Mary Did Not Suffer for Sin

As Mary watched her Son hanging on the cross, she undoubtedly suffered greatly. However, the same could be said of the others present who loved the Lord and witnessed His sufferings: John, Mary Magdalene, Salome, Mary the wife of Clopas (John 19:25-27, Mark 15:40). We might describe the nature of this kind of sorrow as the suffering of compassion.

It is also likely that Mary, even as Christ, endured the taunts and ridicule of evil men. She did so willingly, knowing that God had called her to serve as the mother of Jesus. Scripture describes this kind of persecution as suffering for the sake of righteousness (1 Peter 3:14).

These two kinds of suffering, however, must be distinguished from what Christ experienced on the cross. He suffered for sin. Christ, "having become a curse for us" (Galatians 3:13), became the object of God's wrath as the Father "caused the iniquity of us all to fall on Him" (Isaiah 53:6). This the Lord Jesus, "smitten of God, and afflicted" (Isaiah 53:4), suffered in solitary agony:

Reproach has broken my heart, and I am so sick.
And I looked for sympathy, but there was none,
And for comforters, but I found none.
- - Psalm 69:20

Apparently, neither Mary nor any of the others at the foot of the cross were even aware that before them the Son of God was suffering for the sins of the world.
2. Mary Did Not Suffer Death for Sin

Despite the intensity of Christ's physical sufferings, the Scriptures consistently link our redemption not to his pain, but to His death. Paul writes that "we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son" (Romans 5:10). The writer of Hebrews reminds us that "a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions" (Hebrews 9:15). John tells us that Jesus "released us from our sins by His blood" (Revelation 1:5).

The reason, of course, is that the penalty for our sin is death (Genesis 2:17, Romans 6:23). A life, therefore, had to be given to redeem us. That is why Christ came: "to give His life a ransom for many" (Mark 10:45). Christ "died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, in order that He might bring us to God. . . ." (1 Peter 3:18). Nowhere do the Scriptures teach that we were redeemed by Christ's righteous life, faithful obedience, or even His sufferings at the hands of cruel men.

Here again the sufferings of Mary fall short of being redemptive. The Church claims that "Mary suffered and, as it were, nearly died with her suffering Son,"(23) that she "in her heart died with him, stabbed by the sword of sorrow."(24) But the fact of the matter is that Mary did not die on Calvary. Christ alone gave His life for our redemption.
3. Mary Was Not Qualified to Redeem Mankind

Even if Mary had died on Calvary, her death would not have redeemed anyone. As we saw in the last chapter, Mary herself was a sinner. As such, she was guilty before God and unfit to redeem anyone. The same is true of every other man or woman. Scripture teaches:

No man can by any means redeem his brother,
Or give to God a ransom for him--
For the redemption of his soul is costly,
And he should cease trying forever
- - Psalm 49:7-8

That is why God sent His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, to redeem us. He alone was qualified. Since He was the Son of God, His life was of infinite value and able to redeem all mankind. Having been made "in the likeness of men" (Philippians 2:7), He was capable of both representing humanity before God and physically dying (Hebrews 2:14-17). Since He was without sin, His life was an acceptable sacrifice (1 Peter 1:19; 2:22). Christ alone, therefore, deserves the title of Redeemer. "Worthy is the Lamb that was slain" (Revelation 5:12).
Endnotes

1 Catechism of the Catholic Church, 973.
2 Second Vatican Council, "Dogmatic Constitution on the Church," no. 56.
3 Pope Benedict XV, Inter Sodalicia. This quote and some of the others which follow can be found in a collection of statements by recent popes compiled by Francis J. Ripley, Mary, Mother of the Church (Rockford, IL: Tan Books, 1969).
4 Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis.
5 Second Vatican Council, "Dogmatic Constitution on the Church," no. 58.
6 Pope Pius XI, Explorata Res.
7 Pope Benedict XV, Inter Sodalicia.
8 Pope Pius XII, Ad Coeli Reginam.
9 Pope Leo XIII, Ubi Primum.
10 Decree of the Sacred Congregation of the Holy Office, "Indulgences," June 26, 1913, published in Acta Apostolicae Sedis. Also refer to Henry Denzinger, Sources of Catholic Dogma (St. Louis, MO: Herder Book Co., 1957), p. 502, article 1978 a and footnote 2; A. Tanquerey, A Manual of Dogmatic Theology (New York, NY: Desclee Company, 1959), vol. 2, p. 108-109; and Ludwig Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma (Rockford, IL: Tan Books and Publishers, 1960), p. 212-213.
11 Pope Pius IX, Ineffabilis Deus.
12 Pope Leo XIII, Adiutricem Populi.
13 Pope Pius XII, Ad Coeli Reginam.
14 Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis.
15 Pope Benedict XV, Inter Sodalicia.
16 Pope John Paul II, Salvifici Doloris, no. 25.
17 Pope John Paul II, Salvifici Doloris, no. 25.
18 Second Vatican Council, "Dogmatic Constitution on the Church," no. 61.
19 Pope Pius IX, Ineffabilis Deus.
20 Second Vatican Council, "Dogmatic Constitution on the Church," no. 57.
21 Pope John Paul II, Salvifici Doloris, no. 25.
22 Pope John Paul II, Salvifici Doloris, no. 25.
23 Pope Benedict XV, Inter Sodalicia.
24 Pope Leo XII, Jucunda Semper.


So all it means is that we believe good works are necessary to enter heaven. Indeed, our works must be based on faith, otherwise they are in vain. We know from St. Paul's letters that those who do evil will not go to heaven. Basically, salvation by works means that we have to avoid doing evil, and instead do good as Christ taught us in order to go to heaven. We are still saved through Christ, but we must, through faith, become Christ-like if we are to go to heaven.

Thus, we must avoid evil to inherit the kingdom of God, and that is what the Catholic teaching of faith-based works to get to heaven is all about.

God bless, and please don't ban me. ;)

Everyone sins. Not one is good according to the Bible. Everyone is evil. The you can find out exactly from the Bible what it means to be saved:

OSAS, The Whole Story | GracethrufaithGracethrufaith

Let’s Begin At The Beginning

It’s time to set the record straight once and for all. What does it take to be saved? I think the best answer to that question is the one the Lord gave in John 6:28-29.

Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

Here was a perfect opportunity to list all the things we have to do to meet God’s requirements. Jesus could have rattled off the 10 commandments. He could have repeated the Sermon on the Mount. He could have listed any number of admonitions and restrictions necessary to achieve and maintain God’s expectations of us. But what did He say? “Believe in the one He has sent.” Period. It was a repeat of John 3:16, confirming that belief in the Son is the one and only requirement for salvation.

For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

A few verses later in John 6:38-40 He said that this wasn’t just His idea, as if that wouldn’t be enough, but that His Father was in complete agreement. And not only would our belief suffice to provide us with eternal life, but that it was God’s will that Jesus lose none of those who believe. You and I have been known to disobey God’s will, but has Jesus ever done so? And isn’t He the one who’s been charged with the responsibility for keeping us? Let’s read it.

“For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.” (John 6:38-40)

Just in case we missed this promise, Jesus made it again even more clearly in John 10:28-30. “I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.” The Father and the Son have both accepted responsibility for our security. Once we’re in Their hands, no one can get us away.

I have purposely only used words straight from the Lord’s own mouth to make this case because I can already hear the choruses of “Yes Buts” mounting as those who refuse to take them at face value get ready to trot out their favorite verses denying Eternal Security, misinterpreted though they are.

The one characteristic of God’s that gives us the most comfort is knowing that He can’t lie or change His mind or contradict Himself. He can’t say something in one place and then say something entirely different in another. He’s consistent. If He says that we’re saved solely because of our belief in Him, and that He’s accepted responsibility for keeping us so, then we can count on that. As we’ll see, anything in the Bible that seems to contradict these simple, straightforward statements has to be talking about something else.

But first, since He puts so much emphasis on belief, let’s take a closer look at that word. What does He mean when He says “believe”? It must be more than just a casual thing because reliable statistics show, for example, that 85% of those who come forward to “receive the Lord” at a crusade or other evangelistic outreach never form any connection with a church or Bible Study or in any other way demonstrate a relationship with the Lord afterward.

And Jesus spoke of the seed that fell on rocky places. He said, “This is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away.” (Matt. 13:20-21) If these people were saved and then fell away, all His promises above have been broken. There must be more. So what does it mean to believe?

The Greek word for believe is “pistis.” According the Strong’s Concordance, it’s a “conviction or belief respecting man’s relationship to God and divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and holy fervor born of faith and joined with it.” In connection with the Lord Jesus, it means “a strong and welcome conviction or belief that Jesus is the Messiah, through whom we obtain eternal salvation in the kingdom of God.”

The Apostle Paul gave us valuable insight into the nature of this belief. He wrote, If you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. (Romans 10:9-10)

This isn’t just some intellectual thing that carries us away on the words of a captivating speaker, only to leave us flat a short time later. It’s a conviction that’s formed deep in our heart, the realization that Jesus is not just a man. He’s the Lord Himself, and He took upon Himself the penalty due us for our sins, which is death. And to prove that God counted His death as sufficient, He raised Jesus from the dead to be seated beside Him in the Heavenly realms. (Ephes. 1:20) Since God can’t dwell in the presence of sin, and since the wages of sin is death, every one of our sins has to have been paid for. If even one remained unpaid, Jesus would still be in the grave. We have to believe that Jesus rose from the grave in order to believe that we will.

It’s that kind of belief that gets you saved and keeps you that way, because it sets in motion a chain of events that’s irreversible. There are four links in this chain. You supply two and the Lord supplies two. You hear and believe, and the Lord marks and guarantees.

And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory. (Ephesians 1:13-14)

The word translated “deposit” is a legal term. Today we would say Earnest Money. It’s a down payment that constitutes a legal obligation to follow through with the purchase. If you’ve ever bought any Real Estate, you’re familiar with the term. If not, here’s another example. It’s like we’ve been put on “lay away.” The price has been paid and we’ve been taken off the display shelf until the one who has purchased us returns to claim us. In the mean time we cannot be bought by anyone else, because we legally belong to the one who has paid the deposit. “You are not your own,” we’re told. “You were bought with a price.” (1 Cor. 6:19-20)

All of this happened at our first moment of belief, before we could do anything to either earn or lose our position. The man on the cross beside Jesus is the prototype for this transaction. Having done something bad enough to get himself executed, he was promised a place in Paradise solely because he believed in his heart that Jesus was the Lord of a coming Kingdom.

Paul made it even clearer when he repeated this incredible promise in 2 Cor. 1:21-22. Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

This time He removed all doubt as to just Who it is that keeps us saved. Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. What could be clearer?

So...as you can see faith is the only requirement for salvation and I will NOT listen to some mindless drivel saying otherwise. We don't need to understand your beliefs as we already know what they are. NO RCC promotions allowed on this forum. Thank you for your cooperation. :hat:
 

mbrown1219

Heaven's Stables
You receive the life of faith from your mother, the Church?

Excuse me, but the church is the body of Christ, and He is the head of it.

Colossians 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.

Our faith is a gift from God! Ephesians 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--

Your beliefs are refutable by babes in Christ.
 

livin_in_the_Son

Well-Known Member
Proudly Catholic said:
Thus, we must avoid evil to inherit the kingdom of God, and that is what the Catholic teaching of faith-based works to get to heaven is all about.

God bless, and please don't ban me. ;)

So, how do you keep from doing evil? Are you a thief? Do you hate someone? Are you a liar? Jesus said that all liars will go to hell. How can a sinful man absolve you of your sins? Do you recall Ted Bundy? Would you agree he was evil? There are people who claim that he was a Christian when he died. That he proclaimed he was a sinner, and asked for forgiveness, and proclaimed Jesus as his savior...is he in hell?

No religion, whether it be catholic, protestant, muslim, Jewish, etc., can save you. No one is trying to get you to convert to a religion. Only true belief in the complete work of Jesus' sacrifice on the cross for forgiveness of sins will save you.

Plenty of people have given you proof of this...you have chosen to disregard these truths in order to make yourself feel secure in your belief. But that is a false security.

Even the catholic church claims that pride is a sin.
 

iSong6:3

Well-Known Member
Another of Proudly Catholic's posts deleted for defying the warnings and rule-breaking.

You may ask questions about the Bible and our faith, that's all.
 
Catholic friend, we have many members here who were Catholics themselves and know that religion. They left the RCC when they heard the Good News of salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Jesus Christ alone. You have nothing to say to them - they know the Truth.

You also have nothing to offer the rest of us. We will never turn to the RCC. God has given us the freedom to be Spirit-led and -empowered to live our Christian lives, the assurance of our free salvation and all the other good and perfect gifts we have. All glory to God!! \ 0 /

The only reason you gave for being here is, in essence, to proselytize for the RCC and we will not have that under our roof. You know that by reading and having agreed to abide by our posting rules - notably #4, 5, 6 and 24 - in order to have posting privileges.

There have been other Catholics before you who tried this, you can see that and how it went. We were gracious to allow those, there's no reason for us to keep reinventing the wheel and keep allowing rule-breaking.

I'm sorry if I gave the impression I want to convert you all. I would be happy if you did, of course, but that's not why I'm here. I'm here to ask questions and also to show why I believe what I do. I am NOT here to convince you all that I'm right. Just about everything I believe is founded on Scripture, so I want to show the passages of Scripture that give me reason to believe what I do. This gives you an opportunity to give me a better interpretation, if you think you have one. How can you possibly lead me to believe what you believe if you don't show me why my beliefs are wrong? And if I don't have a chance to show you why I believe what I do, how can you show me that I'm wrong? Naturally, I don't believe I'm wrong, but I'm open-minded, and if you can show me good reasons to believe something else, and good reasons not to believe the interpretation of Scripture I believe, then I have no choice but to change my beliefs. The only way you can do that, however, is by letting me post and showing me the same respect you'd want if you went to a Catholic forum that was teaching funky things about Protestant beliefs, which weren't true. You'd want to be able to show why you believe certain things are true, and you'd also want to be able to clarify your beliefs and ask questions of the Catholics.

That's all I'm asking, really. I also won't clutter your forums with Catholic-propaganda or anything like that. I will stick to this thread, and I will do my best to be courteous and respectful at all times, without demeaning your beliefs or telling you that mine are better. I will simply say why I believe what I do, not why I believe my beliefs are right and yours are wrong, or anything like that.

God bless.
 

iSong6:3

Well-Known Member
You can ask questions without trying to show why you believe you're right. You can mentally compare our answers with your own beliefs. We don't need to show you where you're wrong, necessarily, but we can tell you the Truth and let the Holy Spirit convict your heart, if there is good soil and a truly open heart seeking God's Truth.

I see former Catholics, knowing what the RCC teaches, have anticipated some of these issues in their posts.
 
I'm afraid I cannot continue dialogue with people who do not show respect for what I believe, or the choices I have made. I had a post deleted that was simply quotes from the Bible that showed the basis for certain beliefs of mine. I didn't promote them, just quoted Scripture, which all of you believe is infallible as well. I believe things for a reason. I don't want to debate and convince you that I'm right, I just want to show you why I believe B, despite A, so you can tell me why you believe C, despite B. That's all. That's why I quoted Scripture, and told you what I can believe, so you're better able to answer my questions. Since you seem to have no desire to answer my questions, I must leave. Hopefully other Protestants will be more willing to tell me why they don't believe certain things, despite certain Scriptural passages.

God bless you all, brothers and sisters in Christ, and good luck on your spiritual journeys.
:)
 

Micki

MARANATHA!!
PC, where in The Bible is Mary given the function as "the mother of men". Where does it say the church us our mother? Which church? Do we have two mothers? Can you find one place in the Bible where Yeshua refers to Mary as His mother? I cannot. If He cannot call her mother, why should any of us? If we reject the false teachings of Rome how can it's church be our mother?

Luke 1:46-47 And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord, And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

Mary admits in this verse she needs a Savior, meaning she is not pure. Since she is a creation of God, how is she His mother? Did not Jesus say "before Abraham was I AM"? Mary was born long after Abraham. She is not His mother but His willing servant.

You said "...good works are necessary to enter heaven". If that is true then grace is no longer grace and the horrible suffering that Yeshua endured for our sins was and is insufficient to save us. If we must become Christ like to enter heaven then it is once more our works and not His sacrifice which saves us. In fact, there could be no such thing as a deathbed conversion, for the converted sinner would not have the time to become like Christ and do the good works, in faith, necessary to enter heaven.

There is indeed an evil we must avoid in order to enter into heaven. It is the evil of denying The True Yeshua of the Bible in favor of any other belief, including the false Christ of the roman catholic church. If you are worshipping a Christ whose sacrifice was insufficient, no matter what our sins, you are worshipping a false Christ. If you are worshipping a false Christ you are engaged in idolatry and have not yet received the salvation afforded us by The True and risen Yeshua HaMashiach. I'm sorry to say this but it is for the sake of your eternal soul, you are being lied to. Don't run to Protestantism, run to The True Yeshua and take Him as your Savior while you can! These lies are why I and others like me have left the false religion of roman catholicism to embrace The True Savior. It's true the rcc claims many members but the truth is, that means it's not the way to Yeshua and salvation. Yeshua said:

Matthew 7:13-14 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

If few are finding it and 1 billion people are believing the rcc catechism, that is a lot and not a few, proof given by Yeshua Himself that they are following the path to destruction.

-----------------------------------------------------------

After I posted this I saw PC had said her farewells and wished us luck. If you're still reading this PC I'd like you to know there is no such thing as luck for a follower of Yeshua, there is the will of God, His guidance, His provision and His innumerable blessings. May you receive the blessing of the conviction of The Holy Spirit on your heart to embrace The True, all-powerful Yeshua Who is the only path to Yahweh and eternal salvation.
 
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Chris

Administrator
Staff member
I'm afraid I cannot continue dialogue with people who do not show respect for what I believe, or the choices I have made. I had a post deleted that was simply quotes from the Bible that showed the basis for certain beliefs of mine. I didn't promote them, just quoted Scripture, which all of you believe is infallible as well. I believe things for a reason. I don't want to debate and convince you that I'm right, I just want to show you why I believe B, despite A, so you can tell me why you believe C, despite B. That's all. That's why I quoted Scripture, and told you what I can believe, so you're better able to answer my questions. Since you seem to have no desire to answer my questions, I must leave. Hopefully other Protestants will be more willing to tell me why they don't believe certain things, despite certain Scriptural passages.

God bless you all, brothers and sisters in Christ, and good luck on your spiritual journeys.
:)

We don't need scriptrue quoted out of context on the forums. It wasn't just scripture quoted, it was scripture bent like a pretzel and take out of context. It is probably best for you to head on somewhere else. We don't support the RCC or ANY of it's false teachings. We will stick with scripture alone and the scripture used in context.

Thank you.
 

mbrown1219

Heaven's Stables
We all have free will. You have chosen your beliefs by your free will. God allows that.

Unfortunately for you, this forum has rules about what beliefs are allowed, and your beliefs don't fit.

If you were here to learn of our beliefs, you would sit down and read until you understood them. Even just this one thread would suffice!

Do human beings truly have a free will?

Question: "Do human beings truly have a free will?"

Answer: If “free will” means that God gives humans the opportunity to make choices that genuinely affect their destiny, then yes, human beings do have a free will. The world’s current sinful state is directly linked to choices made by Adam and Eve. God created mankind in His own image, and that included the ability to choose.

However, free will does not mean that mankind can do anything he pleases. Our choices are limited to what is in keeping with our nature. For example, a man may choose to walk across a bridge or not to walk across it; what he may not choose is to fly over the bridge—his nature prevents him from flying. In a similar way, a man cannot choose to make himself righteous—his (sin) nature prevents him from canceling his guilt (Romans 3:23). So, free will is limited by nature.

This limitation does not mitigate our accountability. The Bible is clear that we not only have the ability to choose, we also have the responsibility to choose wisely. In the Old Testament, God chose a nation (Israel), but individuals within that nation still bore an obligation to choose obedience to God. And individuals outside of Israel were able to choose to believe and follow God as well (e.g., Ruth and Rahab).

In the New Testament, sinners are commanded over and over to “repent” and “believe” (Matthew 3:2; 4:17; Acts 3:19; 1 John 3:23). Every call to repent is a call to choose. The command to believe assumes that the hearer can choose to obey the command.

Jesus identified the problem of some unbelievers when He told them, “You refuse to come to me to have life” (John 5:40). Clearly, they could have come if they wanted to; their problem was they chose not to. “A man reaps what he sows” (Galatians 6:7), and those who are outside of salvation are “without excuse” (Romans 1:20-21).

But how can man, limited by a sin nature, ever choose what is good? It is only through the grace and power of God that free will truly becomes “free” in the sense of being able to choose salvation (John 15:16). It is the Holy Spirit who works in and through a person’s will to regenerate that person (John 1:12-13) and give him/her a new nature “created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness” (Ephesians 4:24). Salvation is God’s work. At the same time, our motives, desires, and actions are voluntary, and we are rightly held responsible for them.

Recommended Resources: Chosen But Free, revised edition: A Balanced View of God's Sovereignty and Free Will by Norm Geisler and The Potter's Freedom by James White and Logos Bible Software.

While he is not the author of every article on GotQuestions.org, for citation purposes, you may reference our CEO, S. Michael Houdmann.


Read more: Do human beings truly have a free will?
 

iSong6:3

Well-Known Member
I'm afraid I cannot continue dialogue with people who do not show respect for what I believe, or the choices I have made.

This might hurt your feelings and make you angry, but we must be truthful - we don't respect RCC beliefs. We respect the Bible.

We do respect you, though, as one made in the image of God and a precious person that God loves and Jesus went to the cross for. We speak the truth with that too. :hug

I had a post deleted that was simply quotes from the Bible...

You and I both know that's not the truth.

God bless you all, brothers and sisters in Christ, and good luck on your spiritual journeys.
:)

The Bible says I must not bless you if you are teaching heresy, but know we will be blessing you with our prayers for you. :pray:

And no need to wish us luck, we have the Lord! :yeah:
 

Chris

Administrator
Staff member
I'm afraid I cannot continue dialogue with people who do not show respect for what I believe, or the choices I have made. I had a post deleted that was simply quotes from the Bible that showed the basis for certain beliefs of mine. I didn't promote them, just quoted Scripture, which all of you believe is infallible as well. I believe things for a reason. I don't want to debate and convince you that I'm right, I just want to show you why I believe B, despite A, so you can tell me why you believe C, despite B. That's all. That's why I quoted Scripture, and told you what I can believe, so you're better able to answer my questions. Since you seem to have no desire to answer my questions, I must leave. Hopefully other Protestants will be more willing to tell me why they don't believe certain things, despite certain Scriptural passages.

God bless you all, brothers and sisters in Christ, and good luck on your spiritual journeys.
:)

We do not have any respect for a "works based salvation" plan that hold people in spiritual and physical bondage like the Cult of Rome does. We have folks here who have come out of this spiritual and physical bondage of Rome, they do not want to hear how you justify the Cult of Rome. There is no justification for it. Jesus said that he came so that we could be FREE, not help in spiritual bondage by works, rituals, etc. that is promoted by the RCC.

I'm sorry you have decided to stay in a Christian cult when you could experience the freedom of Jesus Christ. I'll pray that you change you mind in the future. :pray:
 
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