For Our Roman Catholic Friends

yogi

New Member
Well I finally got here and am able to post. Thanks for the link Buzzardhut.

Buzzardhut, it is obvious that you are extremely knowledgeable and also have a lot more free time on your hands than I do. But I prefer to take a simpler approach. Rather than to list every nuance of Catholicism that is even slightly in error and show volumes of text to support that point I like to point out just a few FATAL FLAWS beyond which further argument is not logically possible.

I believe cults and false religions should be treated the same as prophets are treated in the bible. To be a true prophet or a true religion you must be 100% accurate in your prophecy and have no false doctrines in your religion. If these standards cannot be met you are not a prophet or a true religion.

So with that said, let me present my case against Catholicism.

One only has to look at two of the rituals of the Catholic church to completely discredit it as a salvation through the shed blood of Christ religion.

1 - CONFESSION - By this ritual you are absolved of your sins by telling them to a priest and then saying or doing the pennance he gives you. Not only is this totally against the biblical principle of salvation through Jesus alone but it leads Catholics away from the need to accept Jesus as their personal saviour because they can achieve salvation through the rituals of the church. By the rites of confession and pennance Catholics are being taught that they need to re-establish their salvation every time they commit a sin. But a person who follows the bible and truly accepts Jesus into their heart is washed in the blood for all time and has no need of confession and pennance to "maintain" their salvation.

2 - LAST RITES - The belief that a person who is dying or has just died needs to be given the "last rites" of the Catholic church in order to avoid purgatory or hell is another example of a deeply embedded article of faith of the catholic church that gives man the power to administer salvation instead of Jesus. But a Cathoilc who dies without having accepted the gift of grace of Jesus dying for our sins for all time is going to go to hell and suffer for eternity just like any other person who has not accepted Jesus' gift for any other reason.

I could go on but these two will suffice. Just as a prophet must be 100% accurate or he is not a true prophet; the Catholic church, or any other church, sect, or cult for that matter, must have zero denials of the principle of salvation taught by Jesus Himself in their salvation teachings and principles or they are leading their flock to a very bad end. Yet the Catholic church is all about rituals that deny the principle of salvation through the shed blood of Christ as the only way to gain access to heaven.

The Catholic church teaches that there are many ways to salvation with a variety of results from hell through an indeterminant time in purgatory to cleanse the soul of the deceased to entry straight into heaven and finally the ultimate goal, sainthood.

But Jesus taught that we are all unworthy of salvation on our own which is the reason he suffered on the cross and died for us to wash away all our sins for all time in one clean stroke and all we have to do is openly accept that gift, nothing more and nothing less is neccessary.

Once it has been established that a religion is false then to stay in that faith and worship alongside others who are still deluded is to lend credibility to it that will do little to lead people of that faith to the truth. It would be better to leave the faith entirely yet still try to teach the truth to your former church members through loving discourse.
 

Dizzy Mom

Dizzy Mom
I really apologize if I have misunderstood you all. Let me tell you first...I'm not here to defend any part of the Catholic church. Had you read any part of my original post it stated that your site rules state no putting people down for what they believe...

[22] Do Not Judge In An Unrighteous Manner - Determining that someone is less of, or not truly a Christian because of a perceived lack of spiritual gifts, worship style, observance or non-observance of holidays, divorced or remarried, political affiliation, not voting for a specific candidate, experiencing various trials, or because someone who confesses they are saved by grace through faith * in Christ, isn't, is not judging righteously. All members are encouraged to examine and judge doctrine held by other members in light of Biblical truth, but their salvation is a matter to be judged by Christ.[/I]

Interesting then that you should have many threads on different religions and worships and tear them to shreds by your words.

But I found this site to be hypocritical in a way...a few rules down you state:

[24]No Cultic material - Teachings that do not agree with Scripture are not to be promoted here. This includes, but is not limited to, Mormonism, Jehovah Witness, Scientology, Masons, Free Masons, Christian Identity, New Age, Shepherd's Chapel, Sacred Name Movements, works based faiths such as Roman Catholicism, and Seventh Day Adventist teachings. Those who adhere to these beliefs are welcome to discuss Christianity in the Apologetics forum.

If you wanted people to read your message on Christ's impending return and try to get their house in order...and I'm sure you want to reach everyone...then I don't understand how you can say don't judge someone for their perceived beliefs and their salvation is a matter to be judged by Christ. If someone has been worshipping God the way they perceive to be correct for them, for their whole life, how can they feel comfortable enough to share their questions with you if you will attack them like lions.

I'm not knowledgeable, I'm not perfect, I'm not trying to defend RCC, I just didn't know why you want to reach out to people only to put them down. You did say your hope was to show people end times are coming and hope they will take your message to heart.

Also, I might be misunderstanding you completely and I apologize for it, but are you saying that if you confess with your mouth and believe in your heart Jesus is your savior and his blood paid for our sins you are saved for evermore..... and thats it ..... nothing more you have to do ..... you are just saved ..... what if I stole something? What if I cheated on a test? Am I still saved? All those sins are paid for already right? He knew what I was going to do, he shed his blood to pay my way. If I believe I'm trully saved in Christ's blood could I then continue to do what could be considered a sin because I'm saved and the sins are paid for? Can we just put off salvation because we could just wait until we feel we are done with most of our sinning and then asked to be saved?

These are all hypothetical questions. I don't believe in doing any of that whatsoever. I'm just curious and would like your advice on this.
 

yogi

New Member
I really apologize if I have misunderstood you all. Let me tell you first...I'm not here to defend any part of the Catholic church. Had you read any part of my original post it stated that your site rules state no putting people down for what they believe...

[22] Do Not Judge In An Unrighteous Manner - Determining that someone is less of, or not truly a Christian because of a perceived lack of spiritual gifts, worship style, observance or non-observance of holidays, divorced or remarried, political affiliation, not voting for a specific candidate, experiencing various trials, or because someone who confesses they are saved by grace through faith * in Christ, isn't, is not judging righteously. All members are encouraged to examine and judge doctrine held by other members in light of Biblical truth, but their salvation is a matter to be judged by Christ.[/I]

Interesting then that you should have many threads on different religions and worships and tear them to shreds by your words.

That is a bit of a harsh way of looking at it. We do not "tear them to shreds", we point out the biblical errancy of their beliefs. If you want a vicious tearing to shreds just read what is going on in the world of Islam as regards all non Muslim faiths in general and Christianity in particular. Trying to bring people who believe differently than you do is a common practice of all religions and as such is no different than what we do here. We just have G_D's own handbook for the human soul, the bible, to work from.

But I found this site to be hypocritical in a way...a few rules down you state:

[24]No Cultic material - Teachings that do not agree with Scripture are not to be promoted here. This includes, but is not limited to, Mormonism, Jehovah Witness, Scientology, Masons, Free Masons, Christian Identity, New Age, Shepherd's Chapel, Sacred Name Movements, works based faiths such as Roman Catholicism, and Seventh Day Adventist teachings. Those who adhere to these beliefs are welcome to discuss Christianity in the Apologetics forum.

If you wanted people to read your message on Christ's impending return and try to get their house in order...and I'm sure you want to reach everyone...then I don't understand how you can say don't judge someone for their perceived beliefs and their salvation is a matter to be judged by Christ. If someone has been worshipping God the way they perceive to be correct for them, for their whole life, how can they feel comfortable enough to share their questions with you if you will attack them like lions.

That is a complete misreading of the rule. The rule is to prevent others with contradicting beliefs from prosylitizing on this site. They have plenty of web space of their own to do that. But the rule does not prevent discussion of other faiths in comparison to the bible in an attempt to try to bring someone to the Lord. And we do not tear into them like lions. If someone actually did that their post would be edited or deleted and they would earn an infraction of board rules notice.

I'm not knowledgeable, I'm not perfect, I'm not trying to defend RCC, I just didn't know why you want to reach out to people only to put them down. You did say your hope was to show people end times are coming and hope they will take your message to heart.

Also, I might be misunderstanding you completely and I apologize for it, but are you saying that if you confess with your mouth and believe in your heart Jesus is your savior and his blood paid for our sins you are saved for evermore..... and thats it ..... nothing more you have to do ..... you are just saved ..... what if I stole something? What if I cheated on a test? Am I still saved? All those sins are paid for already right? He knew what I was going to do, he shed his blood to pay my way. If I believe I'm trully saved in Christ's blood could I then continue to do what could be considered a sin because I'm saved and the sins are paid for? Can we just put off salvation because we could just wait until we feel we are done with most of our sinning and then asked to be saved?

These are all hypothetical questions. I don't believe in doing any of that whatsoever. I'm just curious and would like your advice on this.


Their are two main purposes for this board. The first is to provide a site where Christians can congregate and discuss issues that are of varrying degrees of importance to them without having to worry about being assailed with false teaching. Thus the rules on pushing other beliefs beyond simple comparative discussion.

The second is to provide a site where believers and non believers who have not fully accepted the word of G_D and the gift of salvation through grace paid for by Jesus shed blood on the cross can come and find the best teaching we are able to give on the true meaning of the many principles of the bible.

And yes, some of us are going to push the envelope a bit at times; but that is because we are imperfect beings and freely admit that. Now if you want to see real hate just google the letters FSTDT and look at what attacking like hungry lions and tearing to shreds really means. We don't, even at our worst, come close to that.
 

yogi

New Member
Yes salvation is complete and permanent once Jesus is accepted into your heart. We were sinners before salvation and we will be sinners after salvation. The difference is that after salvation we are forgiven and assured of a place in heaven. But you have to be fully aware of what you are doing and not just doing what someone else says you need to do as I did in Jr high school. My real understanding of Jesus sacrifice and my true acceptance of it and Jesus into my heart did not happen until I was 56 years old. At that point you are no longer capable of rejecting salvation even though you may display some of the sin nature we all have, saved or not.
 
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yogi

New Member
wow.....I apologize that I have wasted mine and your time...God bless

What kind of answer is that???? I don't feel that I wasted anybody's time. You asked me a question and I gave the most meaningful answer I could. If anyone who reads it gets something from it my time was not wasted and if you feel that your time was wasted that is your problem as I did answer the question you asked with as much biblical accuracy as I could.
 

chrisb01

Luke 12:40
O.K. Let me put in my two cents worth.

I have friends who are Catholics. And I believe they are saved. Here we go...

They don't believe that Mary can save them, only Jesus can. Sure, and I agree with them, that Mary was Blessed among all women. She must have been the holiest one in that time when God picked her for bearing Jesus into this world. They believe in the Bible as the only authoritative Word of God. Some Catholics, such as my brother-in-law, believe that whatever the pope says is the same as scripture. My friends read the Bible. Some Catholic priests tell their congregation that reading the Bible for themselves can cause them to lose their minds, my brother-in-law believes this too. He will not even let me read the Bible for him.

My Catholic friends don't believe in salvation after you die. They don't believe in purgatory, or that after you die in your sins some one can pray you out of hell and into Heaven. They go to the Catholic church because they like it there; but they go there to worship God and God alone.

I myself go to a Pentecostal church. I believe that the speaking in tongues is one of the Gifts of the Spirit. I believe that Jesus can still heal. He is the same yesterday, today and forever. Besides, He, Jesus Christ, said that anything you ask The Father in His Name with Faith, will be done.

I have not found in the Bible where it says that speaking in tongues and healing has stopped, that it was only for the Apostolic era. If we believe in some of the Gifts of the Spirit then we must believe in all of them. I believe, and have Faith that OUR GOD is powerful enough to heal the sick and work miracles. If anything, He saved me, that was a giant miracle. Furthermore, I don't believe that you will go to hell for a simple sin. God has left room for mistakes in our part. But I do believe that if you persist on a sinful life and don't care to make an effort to straighten up your life, at some point you WILL lose your salvation.

The true church is us the believers. We might not agree on everything. However we do agree that Jesus died on the Cross for us all and that He rose again on the third day and is sitting at the right hand of The Father; and YES He is coming back for us.

A disagreement is not cause for dispute but for dialogue.

In closing, let me say a little story concerning what church to go to. When I was just a boy my father invited to the barber shop. He was going for a haircut. The barber knew my father was a Christian. As usual the barber started a conversation; he said "The one thing I find wrong with Christians is that having a church across the street from them, they drive sometimes miles to another another church". My father, very careful not to turn his head answered, "You know I don't have a church across the street from me; but there is a barber shop around the corner from me and I pass a second barber shop on my way here". The barber took a deep breath and said, "You've got me on that one brother".

Hey Brothers and Sisters in Christ, lets keep it civil. :meet:
 

chrisb01

Luke 12:40
wow.....I apologize that I have wasted mine and your time...God bless

Dizzy Mom,

It's not a waste of time. I find this discussions very interesting and constructive. You get to learn about different views and about the Bible also.

Don't go anywhere, stay with us. We Love you and Welcome you with open arms. :thumbup:hat::pray:
 

Saved By Grace

New Member
Cults mix a little good in with a lot of bad. And that is why they are deceptive.

The RCC teaches a works based salvation during the age of grace thru faith. Either Jesus paid the price for your salvation and that is it period. And you accept that. Or you follow Rome and do good works to HELP earn your salvation.

Mormons worship another Jesus. He is not the one in the Bible. He does not have a brother named satan. :doh: :ohno

In this day and age it is important to stand up for biblical truth. There is very little biblical truth in cults. :ohno

yep,a little Levin,Levins the whole lump:nod:hat: Jesus alone saves,not by works, so nobody can boast.
 

BuzzardHut

Bird Mod
but are you saying that
if you confess with your mouth and believe in your heart Jesus is your savior and his blood paid for our sins you are saved for evermore.....
and thats it .....
nothing more you have to do .....
you are just saved .....
what if I stole something?
What if I cheated on a test?
Am I still saved?
All those sins are paid for already right?
He knew what I was going to do, he shed his blood to pay my way. If I believe I'm trully saved in Christ's blood could I then continue to do what could be considered a sin because I'm saved and the sins are paid for?
Can we just put off salvation because we could just wait until we feel we are done with most of our sinning and then asked to be saved?

These are all hypothetical questions. I don't believe in doing any of that whatsoever. I'm just curious and would like your advice on this.
"you are just saved'????
That treats the crucifixion, resurrection, and personal salvation so cheaply, :tsk:These are questions raised by those who want to follow the law for salvation instead of fully trusting in Jesus, not that I am saying you fit in that category but you parrot the same rhetoric
This is a salvation through grace alone forum, not through works, if people feel torn up about works and false religions then they need to come clean with Jesus and fully face what true salvation is all about, not works, not religion, not keeping the laws.
You are free to study about God's grace on this forum.

Galatians 4:16 Have I now become your enemy because I tell you the Truth?

What you feel is a tearing down of false religion may actually be a building up of someone's new faith in the real Jesus

God frowns upon idolatry and false worship

John 4:21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.

John 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

John 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

John 424 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Judges 2:2
And you shall make no covenant with the inhabitants of this land; you shall tear down their altars.’
Judges 6:25
Now it came to pass the same night that the LORD said to him, “Take your father’s young bull, the second bull of seven years old, and tear down the altar of Baal that your father has, and cut down the wooden image that is beside it;
Ecclesiastes 3:3
a time to kill and a time to heal, a time to tear down and a time to build,
Jeremiah 1:10
See, today I appoint you over nations and kingdoms to uproot and tear down, to destroy and overthrow, to build and to plant."
Jeremiah 31:28
Just as I watched over them to uproot and tear down, and to overthrow, destroy and bring disaster, so I will watch over them to build and to plant," declares the LORD.
 
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Saved By Grace

New Member
Yes salvation is complete and permanent once Jesus is accepted into your heart. We were sinners before salvation and we will be sinners after salvation. The difference is that after salvation we are forgiven and assured of a place in heaven. But you have to be fully aware of what you are doing and not just doing what someone else says you need to do as I did in Jr high school. My real understanding of Jesus sacrifice and my true acceptance of it and Jesus into my heart did not happen until I was 56 years old. At that point you are no longer capable of rejecting salvation even though you may display some of the sin nature we all have, saved or not.
:thumbup:nod
 
Re: For Our Roman Catholic Friends - i don't think so

greybeard, hello. i have read some of what you wrote, interesting. but you need to be more informed. i don't know who your Catholic friends are, or where you get your info from. i will comment on two points, as i got a headache reading the rest and could go no further.

1. the Catholic chuch does not commend, recommend, induce or instruct the worship of statues. The statues are of Saints, people who have, for the majority, lost their lives in the service of Christ. We do not worship them, we pray to them asking them to pray for us. For strength to live the lives they have lived. To be selfless as they were, and so on. We do not worship the Blessed Mother either, in case you were going there next or you wrote about this subject on your page. We honor The Blessed Mother. We worship God and only God.

2. about the mass you haven't a clue as to what the mass is all about. first we don't go to get rid of sin, that is what the sacrament of confession is for.

The 3rd Commandment says "remember to keep the Lord's day", well actually it says Sabbath but you get the meaning.

the Mass was instituted by guess who? Jesus at the Last Supper before His crucifixion. The last supper was the first mass

when we celebrate mass we re-present Jesus' great act of love for us on the cross

when we partake of the bread and wine after the transubstantiation the Body and Blood we do as Christ asked, that we "do this in memory of Him"

Jesus gave the church authority, as he said to Peter "on this rock i will build my church" etc.

we do offer thanksgiving for the forgiveness of our sins, by offering the Body and Blood of Christ to his Father in an unbloody manner. yes our sins are forgiven, they are immediately forgiven if we at the moment commited ask forgiveness and have true remorse. but we do not go to mass to ask to be forgiven we go for thankgiving. there is a difference in there if you can see it.

and lastly, although there are many more reasons, mass can if we let it change us for the better. can bring peace, spiritual strength and so forth. ok

thank you, God Bless you
 

Chris

Administrator
Staff member
Re: For Our Roman Catholic Friends - i don't think so

greybeard, hello. i have read some of what you wrote, interesting. but you need to be more informed. i don't know who your Catholic friends are, or where you get your info from. i will comment on two points, as i got a headache reading the rest and could go no further.

The truth is known to give some a headache.

1. the Catholic chuch does not commend, recommend, induce or instruct the worship of statues. The statues are of Saints, people who have, for the majority, lost their lives in the service of Christ. We do not worship them, we pray to them asking them to pray for us. For strength to live the lives they have lived. To be selfless as they were, and so on. We do not worship the Blessed Mother either, in case you were going there next or you wrote about this subject on your page. We honor The Blessed Mother. We worship God and only God.

You should not be praying to statues or to dead saints to give you strength, etc. you should pray to the Father for that as he is the one that gives you strength to rise and awake everyday. Praying to dead people is an exercise in futility.

The RCC catechism specially mentions Mary as "co-redeemer" in it's pages. If you are not following the catechism you are not being a faithful Catholic. Which is good for you as praying to Mary or worshiping her does absolutely nothing but make God mad.


2. about the mass you haven't a clue as to what the mass is all about. first we don't go to get rid of sin, that is what the sacrament of confession is for.

The 3rd Commandment says "remember to keep the Lord's day", well actually it says Sabbath but you get the meaning.

the Mass was instituted by guess who? Jesus at the Last Supper before His crucifixion. The last supper was the first mass

when we celebrate mass we re-present Jesus' great act of love for us on the cross

when we partake of the bread and wine after the transubstantiation the Body and Blood we do as Christ asked, that we "do this in memory of Him"

Jesus gave the church authority, as he said to Peter "on this rock i will build my church" etc.

we do offer thanksgiving for the forgiveness of our sins, by offering the Body and Blood of Christ to his Father in an unbloody manner. yes our sins are forgiven, they are immediately forgiven if we at the moment commited ask forgiveness and have true remorse. but we do not go to mass to ask to be forgiven we go for thankgiving. there is a difference in there if you can see it.

and lastly, although there are many more reasons, mass can if we let it change us for the better. can bring peace, spiritual strength and so forth. ok

thank you, God Bless you

Masses do nothing but hang Jesus on the Cross over and over again. Jesus died once for mankind, he does not need to be crucified over and over every day as done in masses. The RCC is not a true representation of Christianity, it is merely a religious cult that believes all kinds of silly stuff like apostolic succession, popes, purgatory, praying to dead saints, priests forgiving sins, etc. None of this is biblical and is not true Christianity. The RCC is nothing but a big money making scheme from Rome. We call people to come out of the cult of Rome and get back into true fundamental and conservative Christianity. :nod
 
There are many, many misconceptions about the Catholic Church and what we Catholics believe. I have been a devout Catholic all my life, and know my faith pretty well. What is being described in this thread is not my faith. It is contrary to Catholic beliefs (for instance, it is a very serious sin to worship Mary as a goddess), and contains much misinformation about the Catholic Faith. I am prepared to defend myself against any criticisms you might have of my beliefs, and prepared to answer any questions about them. If I had more time, I would go through everything that has been brought up on this thread already, and correct, clarify, or answer various posts. However, since I don't have time to do that right now, I would appreciate taking your questions, criticisms, et cetera, as they come. Feel free to ask me and I will do my best to support my claims with Scripture, the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Church council documents, etc.

Please note that Christianity includes everyone who follows Christ and believes he is God (it can even be given a broader definition, but that one will do for now). Thus, Catholics are most definitely Christians and I find it offensive that you claim otherwise here. Our beliefs aren't all that different from yours, as you seem to think, though there are some major distinctions, of course. We worship no one but God, we believe no one besides God has God-like powers, but that God works through people. There are many other things that are commonly misunderstood about us, and many lies told about our beliefs, so I would appreciate a chance to correct them and build a greater understanding between Catholics and our Protestant brethren.

I also have a question for you to get things started:
Where in the Bible does it say that the Bible is the only source of infallible truth (if you are able to give me the actual verses, as well as the verse locations, that would be helpful since I'll be able to communicate more often and more quickly).

God bless you all and I look forward to your replies.
 

Chris

Administrator
Staff member
There are many, many misconceptions about the Catholic Church and what we Catholics believe. I have been a devout Catholic all my life, and know my faith pretty well. What is being described in this thread is not my faith. It is contrary to Catholic beliefs (for instance, it is a very serious sin to worship Mary as a goddess), and contains much misinformation about the Catholic Faith. I am prepared to defend myself against any criticisms you might have of my beliefs, and prepared to answer any questions about them. If I had more time, I would go through everything that has been brought up on this thread already, and correct, clarify, or answer various posts. However, since I don't have time to do that right now, I would appreciate taking your questions, criticisms, et cetera, as they come. Feel free to ask me and I will do my best to support my claims with Scripture, the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Church council documents, etc.

Please note that Christianity includes everyone who follows Christ and believes he is God (it can even be given a broader definition, but that one will do for now). Thus, Catholics are most definitely Christians and I find it offensive that you claim otherwise here. Our beliefs aren't all that different from yours, as you seem to think, though there are some major distinctions, of course. We worship no one but God, we believe no one besides God has God-like powers, but that God works through people. There are many other things that are commonly misunderstood about us, and many lies told about our beliefs, so I would appreciate a chance to correct them and build a greater understanding between Catholics and our Protestant brethren.

I also have a question for you to get things started:
Where in the Bible does it say that the Bible is the only source of infallible truth (if you are able to give me the actual verses, as well as the verse locations, that would be helpful since I'll be able to communicate more often and more quickly).

God bless you all and I look forward to your replies.

If you signed up on here to "enlighten" us about your cult, you have come to the wrong place. I won't have the "Cult of Rome" defended here, there is no way to defend it. Being a Christian involves believing in Jesus' atonement on the Cross SOLEY for your salvation (believing in the One God sent, it doesn't have anything to do with Mary either). It does NOT include the church saving you, Mary saving you, or doing any works to save yourself. We will not have a works based salvation plan promoted here.

If you can't abide by the rules of the forum, then please log out and refrain from logging in again. Thank you.
 

iSong6:3

Well-Known Member
Catholic friend, we have many members here who were Catholics themselves and know that religion. They left the RCC when they heard the Good News of salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Jesus Christ alone. You have nothing to say to them - they know the Truth.

You also have nothing to offer the rest of us. We will never turn to the RCC. God has given us the freedom to be Spirit-led and -empowered to live our Christian lives, the assurance of our free salvation and all the other good and perfect gifts we have. All glory to God!! \ 0 /

The only reason you gave for being here is, in essence, to proselytize for the RCC and we will not have that under our roof. You know that by reading and having agreed to abide by our posting rules - notably #4, 5, 6 and 24 - in order to have posting privileges.

There have been other Catholics before you who tried this, you can see that and how it went. We were gracious to allow those, there's no reason for us to keep reinventing the wheel and keep allowing rule-breaking.
 
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