Ezekiel 38 Gog / Magog timing / Rapture questions

Uturn9319

Well-Known Member
First, before I ask this question I'd like to state I have not gone through all the past posts so I don't know if this has been brought up already.
Two, I am still Pre-Trib and believe in the rapture but I still think its perfectly normal to ask this question.

With everything happening in the middle east right now with the alleged countries surrounding this prophecy I have to believe we're getting pretty close.
Who the mysterious Gog is doesn't have any bearing on this question.

If this war happens AFTER the rapture and after the Antichrist makes his peace treaty so Israel is dwelling in safety, and the tribulation is 7 years and it starts as soon as the treaty is made, how does Israel have enough time to bury the dead 7 months and burn the weapons for 7 years? They definitely wouldn't be burning the weapons for fuel running from the Antichrist to the mountains in the second half of the tribulation.

The only logical explanation I can give to this view is that somewhere a time gap has to occur, or that this war happens prior to the antichrist making a peace treaty with Israel and Israel is dwelling in safety and flourishing from some other agreement from perhaps from a different war?

The more I look at this the more I am questioning the timing. I've been dwelling on this the last week quite a bit.
Can anyone kindly clarify the question?

Thanks.
 

greg64

Well-Known Member
This one has actually been kicked around a lot. I don't think anyone can say with certainty that Ezekiel 38 happens post-Rapture, but I think many of us suspect it will (or very close after, as in Gog sees an opening, has an evil thought, and goes for it). Regardless, neither event starts the trib -- the peace treaty does. It makes sense that the treaty would come after Ezekiel 38, and it would also follow the classic pattern -- God delivers Israel and they later turn to something/someone else. There have been all kinds of theories about the weapons, so I won't go there -- a little too speculative for me.

Regarding a gap between the Rapture and the treaty, there almost certainly is one. It's just a question of how long (days, months, or years). Unless of course God times it so that we're taken when the treaty is signed, but that would appear to violate 2 Thessalonians 2:7-8, so I doubt very much it plays out that way.
 

Uturn9319

Well-Known Member
This one has actually been kicked around a lot. I don't think anyone can say with certainty that Ezekiel 38 happens post-Rapture, but I think many of us suspect it will (or very close after, as in Gog sees an opening, has an evil thought, and goes for it). Regardless, neither event starts the trib -- the peace treaty does. It makes sense that the treaty would come after Ezekiel 38, and it would also follow the classic pattern -- God delivers Israel and they later turn to something/someone else. There have been all kinds of theories about the weapons, so I won't go there -- a little too speculative for me.

Regarding a gap between the Rapture and the treaty, there almost certainly is one. It's just a question of how long (days, months, or years). Unless of course God times it so that we're taken when the treaty is signed, but that would appear to violate 2 Thessalonians 2:7-8, so I doubt very much it plays out that way.
I think I agree that the treaty (in my opinion) comes after Ezekiel 38 (when I don't know). But there are some interpretations that claim because Israel is "dwelling in safety" this means that they must have just signed the peace treaty with the antichrist and the antichrist is protecting them allowing them to focus on their economy (or rebuilding the city and flourishing as a nation) thus stating the war is after the rapture. I just find it hard to believe that without a time gap of sorts they can be using the weapons as fuel (which we know is 7 years).

Therefore... Ezekiel 38 >>> 7 year time gap to burn weapons << rapture happens sometime between the 7 years >>> antichrist peace treaty >>> <<start tribulation>>> ???? Trying to get this timeline right in my mind.

Could it be possible that the devistation is so bad no one dares mess with Israel for a while? Or is the devistation so bad that antichrist shows up and makes a peace treaty?

And one more question, suppose the treaty is signed and the antichrist is revealed and we're raptured right after. What is the violation of the scripture in 2 Thessalonians 2? Is it because it is presumed the "restrainer" is the Holy Spirit and the antichrist can't be revealed unless the Holy Spirit is gone from this planet?

I dug this up as well

"During the run up to the Six-Day War, the Americans repeatedly rebuffed Israeli requests for military aid and approval for an Israeli preemptive attack on Egypt. The United States, bogged down in Vietnam and facing domestic opposition to that war, was loathe to become embroiled in a second front ."

Kind of describes our situation again today. If this coalition forms, we may be too busy with North Korea, China, Coronavirus, economic fallout and Civil disputes to get involved in this war.
 
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Batman

Well-Known Member
I'll have to check Ezekiel again but isn't there some verses that kind of point to the AC trying to have some say or even take credit for the defeat of the invaders in the mountains north of Israel? I may be over thinking and over stretching my memory right now on that though.
 

greg64

Well-Known Member
And one more question, suppose the treaty is signed and the antichrist is revealed and we're raptured right after. What is the violation of the scripture in 2 Thessalonians 2? Is it because it is presumed the "restrainer" is the Holy Spirit and the antichrist can't be revealed unless the Holy Spirit is gone from this planet?
Yes. Although the Holy Spirit does more than one thing, so I don't think He'll be removed from the Earth entirely. But the restraining influence will be, and I believe all humans with Him living inside will go with Him (and that's something only the church has enjoyed). See John 14:16-31. Actually, the whole chapter. Probably one of the most amazing chapters in the whole Bible.

As far as timing, I was going to pull out a few verses, but all of Ezekiel 39 really speaks to my point. God takes care of the invading horde in such a way that there's no doubt He's responsible -- and He does it for His Glory. Then at the end of the chapter, it makes it clear this part of the process of restoring Israel. In fact, verse 29 says He pours out His Spirit on the house of Israel. I think that strongly hints the age of the church is over by this point. Doesn't conclusively prove it and I don't think we can say definitively, but it sure does seem like the most likely scenario to me.
 

kathymendel

Well-Known Member
If the rapture and it's timeline are shown to us in the Jewish wedding rites, then we will be in heaven at the marriage feast for seven years. The Jewish wedding feast was for seven days in the courtyard, while the bride and groom consummated their marriage in their private quarters. (Seven days could equal seven years in that scenario) At the end of the seven years we come back with Jesus to serve him on earth after he destroys the foe and replenishes the earth. I don't see any gap in that timeline............
 

Uturn9319

Well-Known Member
If the rapture and it's timeline are shown to us in the Jewish wedding rites, then we will be in heaven at the marriage feast for seven years. The Jewish wedding feast was for seven days in the courtyard, while the bride and groom consummated their marriage in their private quarters. (Seven days could equal seven years in that scenario) At the end of the seven years we come back with Jesus to serve him on earth after he destroys the foe and replenishes the earth. I don't see any gap in that timeline............
The gap I'm referring to is the burning of weapons for fuel for 7 years. If we're in the wedding after the rapture, and this war takes place after the rapture, Israel can't possibly be burning these weapons for 7 years if they are fleeing from the antichrist the second half of the tribulation while the world is in completely being flipped upside down. Logically it doesn't make much sense. Therefore, the war has to take place sometime before the rapture, or at least 3.5 years before the rapture begins and the tribulation starts (which is entirely possible).

Despite that, I still think we're heading to close proximity. If I were to guess, it will probably be Isaiah 17 first, then Ezekiel 38. Given the players involved, it is possible that one follows the other in a short time frame.
 

Lynn

Well-Known Member
or at least 3.5 years before the rapture begins and the tribulation starts (which is entirely possible).
Uturn, I wrestle with the timing of all this, too.
(This is only my opinion, nothing more)
I'm thinking Isaiah 17 is next, Rapture, Magog War, burning of weapons 3 1/2 years prior to start of Trib, then, continue burning the weapons for first half of Trib. Mid-trib, they escape to place of hiding & protection by God. The reason I put Isaiah 17 first is because it's not necessarily a direct intervention of God like Magog War will be. The Church could certainly be here for the fulfillment of this. However, Israel is back in God's central focus at Magog where He will give the victory to Israel and all the world will know. It's immediately after this victory that the weapons begin to be burned. There's nothing in Scripture that says rapture is 'immediately' followed by the Tribulation. There are only two other events that must happen: Isaiah 17 and Magog War. We know that these will not happen during the Trib, but sometime before. Since the Trib is Jacob's Trouble (not the Church's), I think we'll be well out of the way. If I'm missing something here, please speak up. I know that so many people try to 'match' the Jewish wedding tradition with our time in heaven while 7 year trib occurs here on earth. The body of Christ is largely Gentile. Why would He be using a Jewish tradition for wedding to Gentile bride? Who says the Wedding Supper occurs immediately after rapture?
Due to the need for weapon burning, I don't know that we can be dogmatic about that, since they don't burn weapons in the last 3 1/2 years. Anybody here a math major? :idunno
 

athenasius

Well-Known Member
As far as timing, I was going to pull out a few verses, but all of Ezekiel 39 really speaks to my point. God takes care of the invading horde in such a way that there's no doubt He's responsible -- and He does it for His Glory. Then at the end of the chapter, it makes it clear this part of the process of restoring Israel. In fact, verse 29 says He pours out His Spirit on the house of Israel. I think that strongly hints the age of the church is over by this point. Doesn't conclusively prove it and I don't think we can say definitively, but it sure does seem like the most likely scenario to me.
That is my best guess, that or a little bit before the Rapture. Either way, the possibility remains that a gap of seconds or days or possibly a few years might happen between the Rapture and the Signing of the Covenant with the AC that starts the whole 7 years.

First, before I ask this question I'd like to state I have not gone through all the past posts so I don't know if this has been brought up already.

If this war happens AFTER the rapture and after the Antichrist makes his peace treaty so Israel is dwelling in safety, and the tribulation is 7 years and it starts as soon as the treaty is made, how does Israel have enough time to bury the dead 7 months and burn the weapons for 7 years?

The only logical explanation I can give to this view is that somewhere a time gap has to occur, or that this war happens prior to the antichrist making a peace treaty with Israel and Israel is dwelling in safety and flourishing from some other agreement from perhaps from a different war?

The more I look at this the more I am questioning the timing. I've been dwelling on this the last week quite a bit.
Can anyone kindly clarify the question?

Thanks.
Good question and one that a LOT of good scholars have varying answers to. We've had some lovely discussions here on this very subject.

One of my favourite teachers, Dr Ron Rhodes in his very good book The 8 Great Debates of Bible Prophecy summarizes each of the main positions in chapter 7 which he devotes totally to the whole Ezekiel Invasion question.

You might really enjoy that book, but I'll summarize a little here:

1-Before the Trib, AND before the Rapture (The Left Behind Series for example takes this view and it is )
2-After the Rapture but before the Trib. (this would involve a gap between the R & the T and this is where you are figuring, you are in good company, Dr Thomas Ice holds this position)
3-First half of the Trib (Dr Andy Woods I think sits here but I don't have time to check, but Walvoord, Ryrie, Pentecost, and Mark Hitchcock hold this view)

views that are extremely unlikely but occasionally pop up:
4-End of the Trib
5-After the Trib, but before the start of the Mill
7/8-Beginning or End of the Mill

Most of the best positions involve the first 2-- FOR THE VERY REASON you noticed, that the weapons need 7 years to burn. However some very good scholars are into the 3rd position. The last 3 options grow less and less likely for various good reasons.

Dr Rhodes says there are 5 Foundational Considerations:
1: The invasion is in the "latter years" or Latter Days" which means the time leading up to the coming of Messiah to set up His Mill Kingdom on earth. J. Dwight Pentecost, affirms that understanding, saying that when you read that in the Old Testament (OT) these prophecies using these terms place themselves during God's dealing with Israel in the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy.

2: Yet to Come. Dr R points out never in history has this group of these attackers come together to attack Israel, so from our perspective, this is DEFINITELY in the future (but due to the major players gathering in Syria it looks ever more likely in the near ish future)

3: Israel HAS to be restored to her land. Check.

4: Israel must be living in Security and Rest at the time of the Invasion. That is a subject of much debate right now with good people on both sides. Some of the ones who land in option 3 position (first half of the Trib) rely on the argument that only the covenant with the AC signed at the beginning of the Trib could guarantee such a situation, while others point out that the word Betach simply implies a careless self reliance (on their IDF).

5: National Alliances-- MUST be in place amongst the invaders. Dr R wrote this in 2014! Since then these alliances have only grown stronger. A subject we often discuss here.

Next Dr R summarizes the pros and cons of each of the positions above.

Finally he gives his own position: AFTER the Rapture, but about 3 -1/2 years before the Tribulation, or perhaps at the very very beginning of the trib.

I just thought you might like to know that you are in good company. But also that there are very good scholars in all 3 of the top positions listed here and that of those 3 top positions there are some very good pros, and some cons.
 

Uturn9319

Well-Known Member
That is my best guess, that or a little bit before the Rapture. Either way, the possibility remains that a gap of seconds or days or possibly a few years might happen between the Rapture and the Signing of the Covenant with the AC that starts the whole 7 years.



Good question and one that a LOT of good scholars have varying answers to. We've had some lovely discussions here on this very subject.

One of my favourite teachers, Dr Ron Rhodes in his very good book The 8 Great Debates of Bible Prophecy summarizes each of the main positions in chapter 7 which he devotes totally to the whole Ezekiel Invasion question.

You might really enjoy that book, but I'll summarize a little here:

1-Before the Trib, AND before the Rapture (The Left Behind Series for example takes this view and it is )
2-After the Rapture but before the Trib. (this would involve a gap between the R & the T and this is where you are figuring, you are in good company, Dr Thomas Ice holds this position)
3-First half of the Trib (Dr Andy Woods I think sits here but I don't have time to check, but Walvoord, Ryrie, Pentecost, and Mark Hitchcock hold this view)

views that are extremely unlikely but occasionally pop up:
4-End of the Trib
5-After the Trib, but before the start of the Mill
7/8-Beginning or End of the Mill

Most of the best positions involve the first 2-- FOR THE VERY REASON you noticed, that the weapons need 7 years to burn. However some very good scholars are into the 3rd position. The last 3 options grow less and less likely for various good reasons.

Dr Rhodes says there are 5 Foundational Considerations:
1: The invasion is in the "latter years" or Latter Days" which means the time leading up to the coming of Messiah to set up His Mill Kingdom on earth. J. Dwight Pentecost, affirms that understanding, saying that when you read that in the Old Testament (OT) these prophecies using these terms place themselves during God's dealing with Israel in the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy.

2: Yet to Come. Dr R points out never in history has this group of these attackers come together to attack Israel, so from our perspective, this is DEFINITELY in the future (but due to the major players gathering in Syria it looks ever more likely in the near ish future)

3: Israel HAS to be restored to her land. Check.

4: Israel must be living in Security and Rest at the time of the Invasion. That is a subject of much debate right now with good people on both sides. Some of the ones who land in option 3 position (first half of the Trib) rely on the argument that only the covenant with the AC signed at the beginning of the Trib could guarantee such a situation, while others point out that the word Betach simply implies a careless self reliance (on their IDF).

5: National Alliances-- MUST be in place amongst the invaders. Dr R wrote this in 2014! Since then these alliances have only grown stronger. A subject we often discuss here.

Next Dr R summarizes the pros and cons of each of the positions above.

Finally he gives his own position: AFTER the Rapture, but about 3 -1/2 years before the Tribulation, or perhaps at the very very beginning of the trib.

I just thought you might like to know that you are in good company. But also that there are very good scholars in all 3 of the top positions listed here and that of those 3 top positions there are some very good pros, and some cons.
Thanks for a response on this! I am glad I am not the only one wrestling with this, but I am dwelling on it pretty heavy and doing a lot of intense research and thinking about how it goes down. I do so, so I can understand where we are as far as timing.

Isaiah 17 - Israel has been bombing Iran in Damascus pretty heavily the last two months. I think this prophecy is more than likely to come first.
Perhaps after Isaiah 17 has been fulfilled is what makes Israel rest on their laurels, as if it sends a message to everyone in the region and everyone backs off (temporarily).

The other scenario that gives Israel some security and rest is another 4 year term for Trump. Iran dare not try anything with Trump in power.

I don't believe Iran will reach full scale war with Israel before Ezekiel 38.
The pipeline for Israel timeline is 2025 (unless it gets finished sooner). This timeline means they will be completing it near the end of Trump's 2nd term (assuming he wins). Not saying that is a reason, but the Golan Heights definitely look like a target to me (some believe its the West Bank - which is fine - I am not reserved to either location).

I get a bit anxious typing this as I keep thinking LORD COME QUICKLY!!!
 

athenasius

Well-Known Member
I was just remembering Dr Arnold Fruchtenbaum's book The Footsteps of the Messiah (another book I HIGHLY recommend) on page 115 goes into the 7 years of burning and 7 months of burying.

He points out these 7 months and 7 YEARS are CRUCIAL to figuring out WHEN the invasion occurs.

On p 117 "the Timing of the Invasion" he writes that nowhere does it say Israel is living in peace. He looks at the kibbutzim as being the unwalled villages and he feels that everything from the feeling of security (based on their ability to respond via the IDF) and the ways that Israel already protects itself, that it is in the position outlined in Ez 38.

From p 118 on, he demolishes every view but his own which is that the invasion occurs BEFORE the Trib begins. 3-1/2 years BEFORE the Trib to be exact! He deals with objections to his view quite nicely.

As he points out this doesn't destroy the doctrine of Imminency because the Rapture may still come even before this.

Again, to restate his position-- this war must start 3-1/2 years before the Trib starts to allow for the burning of weapons to finish before the midpoint.

He says the Rapture is both PRE TRIBULATIONAL (before the Trib) and Imminent (can occur at any time). And he thinks this will occur BEFORE Gog Magog.
 

athenasius

Well-Known Member
Thanks for a response on this! I am glad I am not the only one wrestling with this, but I am dwelling on it pretty heavy and doing a lot of intense research and thinking about how it goes down. I do so, so I can understand where we are as far as timing.

Isaiah 17 - Israel has been bombing Iran in Damascus pretty heavily the last two months. I think this prophecy is more than likely to come first.
Perhaps after Isaiah 17 has been fulfilled is what makes Israel rest on their laurels, as if it sends a message to everyone in the region and everyone backs off (temporarily).

The other scenario that gives Israel some security and rest is another 4 year term for Trump. Iran dare not try anything with Trump in power.

I don't believe Iran will reach full scale war with Israel before Ezekiel 38.
The pipeline for Israel timeline is 2025 (unless it gets finished sooner). This timeline means they will be completing it near the end of Trump's 2nd term (assuming he wins). Not saying that is a reason, but the Golan Heights definitely look like a target to me (some believe its the West Bank - which is fine - I am not reserved to either location).

I get a bit anxious typing this as I keep thinking LORD COME QUICKLY!!!
OK we dealt with the position of Isaiah 17 in relation to Gog Magog in the big thread at length, but short form is that most of us agree, Isaiah 17 comes before.

I think I will try copying my response from there, over into here because the differences are interesting and show a bit of a progression. And there are aspects of Isaiah 17 that actually set up for Gog Magog, PLUS the way God moves is different, but with one UNIQUE SIMILARITY.

I think this is the bit here:
thank you for the compliment but I prefer Adrian or Mike Henderson's more balanced views to keep me balanced. They have actual Bible training, and great wisdom and discernment that I rely on. I go off on these rabbit trails, enthusiastically following what ever got me curious, often ignoring the obvious in search of the odd stuff.



That reminds me, I didn't fully finish that question from @Endangered that dealt with the role of Israel in the destruction of Damascus.

So I shared the Jeremiah bit with verse 25 that asks that odd little rhetorical question about the city of my joy being Jerusalem in a sharp contrast to the smoke and death over Damascus.

But IF Isaiah is speaking of the very same event and not just a separate fulfillment many years apart, then Isaiah 17:9 and Isaiah 17:14 are really good clues to add a little more to the--

Who Dunnit? mystery of the Destruction of Damascus. The puzzle of how it happens. So here are the other 2 clues to that puzzle.

Isaiah 17 King James Version (KJV)
17 The burden of Damascus. Behold, Damascus is taken away from being a city, and it shall be a ruinous heap.

2 The cities of Aroer are forsaken: they shall be for flocks, which shall lie down, and none shall make them afraid.

3 The fortress also shall cease from Ephraim, and the kingdom from Damascus, and the remnant of Syria: they shall be as the glory of the children of Israel, saith the Lord of hosts.

4 And in that day it shall come to pass, that the glory of Jacob shall be made thin, and the fatness of his flesh shall wax lean.

5 And it shall be as when the harvestman gathereth the corn, and reapeth the ears with his arm; and it shall be as he that gathereth ears in the valley of Rephaim.

6 Yet gleaning grapes shall be left in it, as the shaking of an olive tree, two or three berries in the top of the uppermost bough, four or five in the outmost fruitful branches thereof, saith the Lord God of Israel.

7 At that day shall a man look to his Maker, and his eyes shall have respect to the Holy One of Israel.

8 And he shall not look to the altars, the work of his hands, neither shall respect that which his fingers have made, either the groves, or the images.

9 In that day shall his strong cities be as a forsaken bough, and an uppermost branch, which they left because of the children of Israel: and there shall be desolation.

10 Because thou hast forgotten the God of thy salvation, and hast not been mindful of the rock of thy strength, therefore shalt thou plant pleasant plants, and shalt set it with strange slips:

11 In the day shalt thou make thy plant to grow, and in the morning shalt thou make thy seed to flourish: but the harvest shall be a heap in the day of grief and of desperate sorrow.

12 Woe to the multitude of many people, which make a noise like the noise of the seas; and to the rushing of nations, that make a rushing like the rushing of mighty waters!

13 The nations shall rush like the rushing of many waters: but God shall rebuke them, and they shall flee far off, and shall be chased as the chaff of the mountains before the wind, and like a rolling thing before the whirlwind.

14 And behold at eveningtide trouble; and before the morning he is not. This is the portion of them that spoil us, and the lot of them that rob us.

As you can see Isaiah is pointing a finger squarely at Damascus for starting things, by coming in for spoil, to rob Israel as v 14 says. And as Isaiah is describing things, he points out that his strong cities (referring to the nearby cities that Damascus RULES over in other words this also involves Syria) are forsaken, left behind because of the children of Israel.

So they go in to steal from Israel, and they end up being attacked BY Israel.

And THAT puts it OUT of the framework of Ez 38 & 39 in which Israel is saved by GOD's actions on the invaders. This situation involves the IDF- the children of Israel taking action. Ez 38 & 39 GOD is their only hope and defence.

So parking the destruction of Damascus inside along with the other Ez 38 happenings doesn't work UNLESS

Unless the trigger for Ez 38 is actually Damascus-- and it occurs rapidly just after Israel finishes off Damascus.

And that might fit with how things are worded. That valley of the Rephaim mentioned here is one of Israel's main train corridors from the coast to Jerusalem. The glory of Jacob, Ephraim (northern Israel along that train corridor) and the glory of the children of Israel are all mentioned as being diminished.

So in this conflict Israel takes losses, but Jerusalem is not abandoned (Jeremiah 49:25) , unlike Damascus and Syrian strong cities. They are destroyed and abandoned.

Contrast that with the picture Ezekiel gives of a nation dwelling in relative peace BACK FROM SOME CONFLICT which we DON'T know for sure what that conflict is in Ez. It just speaks of a land that is brought back from the sword, dwelling in safety in Ezek 38:8 here:

8 After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.

That might just refer to the situation of the Jews as they came to Israel, that land was brought back from the sword of multiple conquests from the Roman Empire, down to the Muslim hordes and finally the Ottoman Empire, which ended around the time of the Balfour declaration in the aftermath of WW 1. Then the Jews -- not the land but the people have been at the point of the sword since the Roman diaspora till 1948. So that passage could refer to that. The MOUNTAINS OF ISRAEL are a name for the West Bank aka Judea and Samaria. That itself is significant.

Back from the sword could also refer to one of the many times the IDF has to go out beyond their borders into Syria, Iraq or other places to do a raid to take out a threat. Or the many wars of survival since 1948.

It isn't necessarily a limited war with Syria, that expands into something that takes out Damascus.

And the cities of Aroer are puzzling. This reference makes the most sense https://biblehub.com/commentaries/isaiah/17-2.htm
and the Jewish Encyclopaedia agrees here: http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/1804-aroer

Again, lots of interesting details. Not sure how it all fits. But if Isaiah and Jeremiah are referring to the same Damascus destruction, then it's definitely something that Damascus starts, with theft in mind and Israel finishes. When the dust settles, Jerusalem is NOT abandoned, and Israel survives although at a cost.
and I finished that thought here:
I’m having trouble getting onto the main computer. So my answers are going to be a little less than I’d like. I’m using speech to text and I can’t easily put Bible quotes or any other quotes in.

And rather than provide any clear answers I will simply lay out the puzzle pieces I’m working on trying to fit things together. Brace for confusion and murk. If you or anybody else wants to play with this jigsaw puzzle I’m all ears.

I don’t fully rule out the destruction of Damascus being a trigger to the Ezekiel 38 war.

The reason I say that still might be related is there is one spot in Isaiah 17: 7-8. It says in that day man will have regard for his maker and his eyes will look to the holy one of Israel. He will not have regard for the altars, the work of his hands, nor will he look to that which his fingers have made, even the Asherim and incense stands.

When you see that kind of wording it suggests that Israel is starting to turn towards God and that is the purpose of Ezekiel 38&39 as well as the Tribulation. So if we use the dispensational principle (that a lot of prophecy teachers use) that God’s program is either on the church or on Israel then we are looking at a period of time when the church is absent or that we are very close to the rapture.

As for the psalm 83 thesis of Bill Salus yes I think there is a STRONG connection.

3 passages that seem connected. Isaiah 17, Jeremiah 49 & the LAST HALF of Ezekiel 32. Plus Amos 1:3-5 and Zechariah 9:1-8. I’m using Damascus as my key.

Isaiah 17 deals with the destruction of Damascus as well as Jeremiah. Jeremiah also deals with the destruction of Elam and Damascus. Ezekiel 32 has the destruction of Elam as well as a number of Psalm 83 combatants.

so Ezekiel 32:17-32 is my connection to the Psalm 83.

CAUTION: first off before running with this I should caution that I do NOT know if these were fulfilled in the past in someway that prevents them being connected just by being neighbours in Jeremiah 49, and repeating the destruction of Damascus & Elam. (South western Iran, shores of the Persian Gulf). So I may be using puzzle pieces that belong to some other prophetic picture by accident.

They do seem to connect the destruction of Damascus in Jeremiah 49 versus 23 through 27 with the destruction of the area of Iran called Elam. Verses 34-39.

and they might well BOTH be fulfilled in the tribulation. During the wars of the antichrist.

Read Ezekiel 32:17-32. That passage seems related to the passage in Jeremiah 49. You will see Elam mentioned in both. And in the Ezekiel passage it gives the reason for the destruction. It is terrorism. I got onto this passage through Bill Salus.

You will see a very clear break after verse 16 in Ezekiel 32 when Ezekiel mentions in verse 17 that this is a completely different vision. I know verses 1 through 16 this was fulfilled in the past.

if Ezekiel is the key that holds the whole thing together then it’s a possibility that the destruction of the area of Iran called Elam and Damascus are related to terrorism that somehow manages to involve Egypt and Jordan in some war that begins over terrorism.

Yet the Damascus passages which also include Amos 1:3-5 and Zechariah 9:1-8 are about plunder— and that is similar to Ezekiel 38 again. Along with the way it’s worded about God using the events to turn Israel b to Him. And they also mention Gaza & Lebanon via the Tyre & Sidon mentions.

Once I took Ezekiel 32 as the key- the other nations mentioned next to Damascus & Elam look an awful lot like Bill Salus’s Psalm 83 players.
after that the discussion included maps, geography and other stuff.

But you get the point.

Isaiah (and the related Damascus prophecy texts from the other prophets) suggest that the IDF does their thing, -- NO HELPERS from other nations BUT the purpose is to bring them back into belief in God.

Ezekiel's Gog Magog is ALL GOD's DELIVERANCE from Israel's HUGE invasion which they can't do anything about. NO MENTION of any IDF. NO allies come to their defence. AND the purpose is the same. GOD ALONE delivers them. They begin to turn to HIM. Oh AND they are back from some war.

Plus it's that "latter days" wording.

and a very odd turn of phrase in Ezekiel talks of God showing Himself strong in the eyes of the nations (the rest of the world). Well if the Christians are still HERE, they'd KNOW GOD.

It's an odd little clue that we might be outta here before the GM thingy starts.
 
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athenasius

Well-Known Member
Thanks for a response on this! I am glad I am not the only one wrestling with this, but I am dwelling on it pretty heavy and doing a lot of intense research and thinking about how it goes down. I do so, so I can understand where we are as far as timing.

Isaiah 17 - Israel has been bombing Iran in Damascus pretty heavily the last two months. I think this prophecy is more than likely to come first.
Perhaps after Isaiah 17 has been fulfilled is what makes Israel rest on their laurels, as if it sends a message to everyone in the region and everyone backs off (temporarily).

The other scenario that gives Israel some security and rest is another 4 year term for Trump. Iran dare not try anything with Trump in power.

I don't believe Iran will reach full scale war with Israel before Ezekiel 38.
The pipeline for Israel timeline is 2025 (unless it gets finished sooner). This timeline means they will be completing it near the end of Trump's 2nd term (assuming he wins). Not saying that is a reason, but the Golan Heights definitely look like a target to me (some believe its the West Bank - which is fine - I am not reserved to either location).

I get a bit anxious typing this as I keep thinking LORD COME QUICKLY!!!
In the big thread I go into the exact routes of invasion that are outlined in the various Damascus prophecies. @sawas brought in some incredibly good maps of the terrain. I know it's a big thread but I think you might enjoy it.

The Valley of the Rephaim is very important. (It's now a train route from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem) It's in the northern area above Jerusalem. The area of Gilead is mentioned and that is in the northern most tip of Jordan. Amos says Damascus threshes it with iron sledges, and God destroys them because of it, while Isaiah and the other passages we covered in that thread bring up the northern areas of Israel.

What is also interesting is the way that specific areas corresponding to modern locations in Syria are mentioned in the whole destruction of Damascus including the province of Hama (It's HAMATH)

here's the post getting into the invasion route across the northern areas of Israel, coming as far as the Valley of the Rephaim
Coming on briefly (testing out the new HEPA filter in the study, so trying to be brief) but you brought up some delightful and interesting observations that are irresistable

Look at the passage as a see saw, a back and forth comparison -- God is addressing Israel but first dealing with Damascus. Wiping them out, and their surrounding "strong cities". Then God is addressing Israel in correction and pruning. It is a passage of contrasts between Damascus and Israel. Much like Jeremiah's question in Jer 49:11 where he asks about the city of Jerusalem in contrast to the smoking ruins of Damascus. It ends with the comment that this is what happens to those who plunder Israel.

Ok I am struck by the repetition, 3X no less!!! in Isaiah 17: 3-4. The phrases "The fortified city will disappear from Ephraim", then "the remnant of Aram will be like the glory of the Israelites" and then "In that day the glory of Jacob will fade; the fat of his body will waste away" and if you consider the Valley of the Rephaim, a 4RTH time no less in verse 5. That remnant of Aram-- Aram is Syria as a whole, I think, so there are a few left in Syria-- but Damascus and the strong cities belonging to it are gone. So this remnant will be like the rather feeble and tarnished glory of Israel at this point. Damascus is gone, Jerusalem survives, but Syria is almost destroyed leaving a few. And in Israel, the northern parts are decimated, leaving a gleaning.

It seems to me that Isaiah is using a sing song repetition comparing and contrasting Israel (these all belong to Israel) with the territory and fate of Damascus and region of Syria. Even though Israel takes a serious hit, they survive, but as for Damascus and surrounding area "This is the portion of those who loot us, the lot of those who plunder us."

Important point about Ephraim and the Valley of the Rephaim:

Israel's NORTHERN DEFENCES in the area of Ephraim are described as disappearing, if fortified cities means defence positions. These are IMPORTANT as they are just above the territory of Judah and Benjamin, and just above JERUSALEM. BELOW the area around the Sea of Galilee from looking at the maps online. This is the area that is over run in the fight. THIS is the area of the Valley of the Rephaim which today is the site of a main railway connecting Tel Aviv to Jerusalem! Wikipedia says this:"The Tel Aviv – Jerusalem railway, originally known as the Jaffa–Jerusalem railway, uses the entire length of the Valley of the Rephaim from Jerusalem to its junction with Nahal Sorek."

This appears to be an invasion for plunder that Syria's leaders in Damascus plan, but the IDF retaliates and causes the destruction (not God but "the Israelites" in v 9-- contrast that with the situation in Ez 38&39) although God is behind the whole process in order to bring Israel back from their unbelief. Damascus gets as far as the Valley of the Rephaim-- that railway zone, before they are decimated. The whole thing takes place in a 24 hour period or less. V 14 in the evening sudden terror, before morning they are gone.

It doesn't seem to imply that Israel means to do away with Damascus quite so completely. That isn't the IDF style. They usually hit back just enough to make their enemy back off. They don't want to wipe their enemies off the map. Just make them behave. So something goes sideways and Damascus is destroyed. God is in ultimate control of these events, not the IDF and certainly not Syria.

Israel is pictured as gleanings remaining after the grain is harvested, or after the olives are harvested. A few remain. Contrasted to the utter desolation of Damascus and region. If the cities of Aroer are as Grotius here https://biblehub.com/commentaries/isaiah/17-2.htm sees them, they are suburbs of Damascus or nearby area. V 2 and V 9 chime in and repeat V 1-- the utter desolation, that these cities are in, a heap of ruins, where flocks will dwell without fear of man, a place abandoned to the wild growth of thickets and undergrowth.




There is another repetition 3X of "in that day" in v 4, 7 and 9. It is tied together as the day that Damascus is destroyed, but it immediately turns to the problem with Israel that the LORD sees and is referencing here in verse 10&11. In v 7&8 we see Israel's attention turn to God their maker. V 9 is an interspersed comment on the abandoned, people free zone of Damascus so the people in v 7&8 are Israel. And in 10& 11 God is explaining to Israel, what just happened to them. That v 9 is part of the back and forth, it belongs to the contrast of Damascus and her "strong cities" -- having become a place of total desolation. IN THAT DAY is often referring to the time of Jacobs trouble, when God's attention is once again devoted to Israel. I'm not saying it HAS to be after we are gone, but it might fit best in that after the Rapture period whether after the Rapture means right into the Tribulation right away or whether it may have a period of time between the Rapture and the Tribulation which kicks off with the signing of the covenant not the Rapture. Not sure, but leaving that open.

Verses 10 & 11 are really horrifying and instructive too.
10 You have forgotten God your Savior;
you have not remembered the Rock, your fortress.
Therefore, though you set out the finest plants
and plant imported vines,
11 though on the day you set them out, you make them grow,
and on the morning when you plant them, you bring them to bud,
yet the harvest will be as nothing
in the day of disease and incurable pain.

And again, the reference is to Israel doing things on her own strength and initiative, possibly "plant IMPORTED vines" is indicating planting imported religions-- I'm thinking of Pope Francis's new religion he is cooking up at the Vatican, the allowing of Muslim stuff, and other Imported vines.

For a long time, prophecy teachers have been thinking that possibly that final peace covenant will involve a deal where if the Jews get to build their Temple on the Temple Mount, while in exchange the other religions (trample underfoot) get their piece of Jerusalem, or the Mount or both. The gentiles have been trampling both underfoot for millennia now, and the process continues. The implication is that Israel imported these vines though, so unlike the last 2K years, this is something Israel invites in.

This "planting" process, will have quick growth (that Temple is already prefabricated, ready to GO IF that is the price of peace under the AC for example) BUT

The HARVEST will be as nothing (Israel thought to benefit, but doesn't get any benefit) and here's the kicker that references the Tribulation period again (IN THE DAY OF DISEASE AND INCURABLE PAIN). That to me speaks of the Tribulation period (not any current plague).

HOWEVER if it is NOT in the Tribulation period, it is certainly stage setting towards it. I don't know what the IMPORTED VINES are at all. I'm guessing here as a possible fit.

It might also mean any of the many peace processes that Israel has allowed that give away the Land that GOD owns, and gave to them (but forbade them from selling it or giving it away). Imported vines might be the "Palestinian" Arabs who came from their own lands surrounding Israel and have set down roots.

The CONTRAST to this state of forgetting about God, and planting stuff that doesn't belong in Israel was introduced above in v 7&8

In that day people will look to their Maker
and turn their eyes to the Holy One of Israel.
8 They will not look to the altars,
the work of their hands,
and they will have no regard for the Asherah poles
and the incense altars their fingers have made.

Which suggests that no matter which side of the Rapture or Tribulation that this destruction of Damascus lands on, it's part and parcel of Israel turning BACK to the Lord, the Holy One of Israel, their MAKER!



14 And behold at eveningtide trouble; and before the morning he is not. This is the portion of them that spoil us, and the lot of them that rob us.
In that back and forth this would indicate Damascus as the "he" that tried to spoil Israel and rob them. The passage begins with Damascus and ends with the affirmation, that even if Israel is troubled (to lead them back to their God) those that try to rob them will be no more. The HE is the one who invaded, the one who started the fight, in other words Damascus.

And if Damascus IS the trigger for the Gog Magog invasion of Ez 38 & 39, then this is a direct warning to Russia and allies that are about to descend on Israel AGAIN with intent to rob them. In that invasion, Israel seems unable to come to their own defense and nobody else steps up, so GOD is shown as their defender, provider and protector. And again IF Damascus is the trigger or comes just before the Gog Magog thing, it would be in keeping with God's character to have provided fair warning to all those who want to plunder HIS LAND. AND it would also serve to show Israel that they can't do it themselves-- they nearly wipe themselves out in the Damascus situation. They are completely unable to respond to the invasion force of Ezekiel 38 & 39



It's why I think they might actually be related, or the same event.



Your table is EXCELLENT and I find it VERY helpful to see at a glance.

I like the post game wrap up idea. Yes that is exactly what it is. The common thread is terrorism "causing terror in the land of the living". While Egypt isn't accused of that in this passage, it seems like they get sucked in. The Jordanian elements always interest me. One of the related passages has Edom involved in terrorism, but it was another passage, can't remember which for the time being.

Think of the Assyrian as more mid to northern Syria and Iraq in it's ancient boundaries. Blurs boundaries but not too much overlap with Persia.

I agree about the biblical boundaries of Israel. This war or wars might involve (as Bill suggests) Israel gaining land as God has arranged whenever anyone invades them and they must fight for their lives.




Ok Elam is interesting but I find it helpful to keep Elam somewhat separated from Persia (Iran). It's part of modern day Iran, but the fact that it has well known boundaries in the past and even today it is separated geographically by the mountain range rising from the shores of the Gulf, makes it a separate entity, but tied up with Persia (Iran). Stuff that happens in Elam like Vegas, might stay in Elam while Elam's refugees are scattered to the 4 winds.



Yes, final destruction of Egypt IS in the Bible, but it's a 40 year disaster, not final doom sort of thing. it's the Tower of Syene that Gary Stearman talks about here https://prophecywatchers.com/the-tower-of-syene-a-prophetic-wonder/ and that looks like it might be in the Tribulation period. Egypt survives and thrives in the Millennial Reign of Christ. Ken Johnson always uses the destruction of the Nile river as his snappy comeback to anyone suggesting we are in the Tribulation asking them if the Nile has run dry yet. Gary sheds light on just how that might happen.

I don't think that is the same event as the Tower of Syene thing that Ez 32 is referring to though.

That is another rabbit trail and maybe we should just open another thread for rabbit trails. We can drag stuff over thru quotes.

@cavalier973 Apologies for sidetracking your wonderful thread.
Super important maps to help "see" the areas involved from @sawas (he's been off for a few weeks, hoping all is well)
Another couple. This one highlights where any attacking land force from the north would be required to pass.



 
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Uturn9319

Well-Known Member
In the big thread I go into the exact routes of invasion that are outlined in the various Damascus prophecies. @sawas brought in some incredibly good maps of the terrain. I know it's a big thread but I think you might enjoy it.

The Valley of the Rephaim is very important. (It's now a train route from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem) It's in the northern area above Jerusalem. The area of Gilead is mentioned and that is in the northern most tip of Jordan. Amos says Damascus threshes it with iron sledges, and God destroys them because of it, while Isaiah and the other passages we covered in that thread bring up the northern areas of Israel.

What is also interesting is the way that specific areas corresponding to modern locations in Syria are mentioned in the whole destruction of Damascus including the province of Hama (It's HAMATH)

here's the post getting into the invasion route across the northern areas of Israel, coming as far as the Valley of the Rephaim
Can you link to the thread?
 

Chris

Administrator
Staff member
The gap I'm referring to is the burning of weapons for fuel for 7 years. If we're in the wedding after the rapture, and this war takes place after the rapture, Israel can't possibly be burning these weapons for 7 years if they are fleeing from the antichrist the second half of the tribulation while the world is in completely being flipped upside down. Logically it doesn't make much sense. Therefore, the war has to take place sometime before the rapture, or at least 3.5 years before the rapture begins and the tribulation starts (which is entirely possible).

Despite that, I still think we're heading to close proximity. If I were to guess, it will probably be Isaiah 17 first, then Ezekiel 38. Given the players involved, it is possible that one follows the other in a short time frame.
I'm not sure why people think this has to happen 3.5 years before the tribulation. The Bible tells the Jews to flee but probably not many of them are going to do it. Afterall, most don't come to salvation in Jesus until they see him return. The truth is no one knows how soon before the Tribulation occurs that Gog/Magog will happen. It could happen months before giving the AC time to rise and throw up his plan to make peace which leads to them saying peace and safety, then sudden destruction comes. It could be months, it could be weeks, it could be years. No one knows. We can only speculate.

I've always believed the 7 years of burying the dead and burning weapons was somewhat close in time with the Tribulation period, but again no one knows. We can only speculate. The good thing though is we can see from looking in Syria that the Gog/Magog alliance is in the beginning stages and we know where that will ultimately lead them to. :eek

Keep looking up!
 

athenasius

Well-Known Member
Russia, Turkey, Iran and Syria have been in the news quite a bit lately
They sure have been. And so have Libya (Put) and the Sudan (Cush) what with that dam project that is pitting Egypt against Ethiopia and the Sudan and the Libyan civil war which is alarming Egypt but putting both Russia and Turkey into Libya.

Sooner or later everybody gets together north of Israel and invades.
 
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