Ezekiel 38:19

Discussion in 'Gog / Magog' started by Erin, Nov 28, 2018.

  1. athenasius

    athenasius Well-Known Member

    I completely agree. Dr Andy Woods was teaching on this recently, and he was pointing out that the phrase Come Up Here in the Greek is the same as when Paul talks of us being caught up. So again, more weight to the traditional interpretation that Rev 4:1 is the Rapture as seen thru John's eyes.

    Rev 1:19 JESUS HIMSELF divides the book of Revelation, into the things which "you have seen" referring to John seeing Christ, "the things which are" which are the 7 churches which are 7 literal churches, but also 7 church eras, and 4 out of those 7 have mentions of the Tribulation. and "the things that will take place AFTER THESE THINGS". The next verse after the last bits to the churches of the church age says Come UP HERE! From chapter 4 "Come up here" to the end of Chapter 5, we see heaven, and the Lamb and HE takes the scroll and in V1 of chap 6 HE begins to open the seals.

    To the point of the seals mentioned up thread by Spock. I have a problem with any teaching that attempts to fit the seals in the present time and here is why.

    The first 4 seals are the deadly quartet of riders.

    The first one comes conquering and to conquer--plus he has a bow, but no arrows. He is often thought of as the Antichrist because of this and that is my own view as well. He conquers thru deception and intrigue which are known characteristics of the AC in other passages, which fits with the bow without arrows, that he conquers with. By peaceful means, by deception.

    We have NOT yet seen the world ruler arise on the scene as such. We might see him already on the world stage in some capacity, but his fulfillment of prophecy is yet to be. And Paul in 2 Thess 2 points out in v 2-3 we WON'T be here for that. That whole passage is a reassurance that we don't have to be here for the Day of the Lord which is a term used in both the OT and NT for the Trib.

    PAUL DOES NOT SPLIT the tribulation into parts. We are not here for any of it. The Day of the Lord covers the beginning, which is set off by the AC signing a treaty with Israel and the many commonly thought of as the nations right to the end when Jesus appears and ends it all. That Treaty is the starter pistol. And it can't happen till we are out of the way. And the Restrainer stops restraining the AC from appearing.

    There is simply no way we have a global ruler yet, no matter how we twist the headlines.

    So we aren't in the First Seal, nor have we seen any part of that. The RESTRAINER (v 7) continues to restrain that one from appearing until the RESTRAINER is taken out of the way.

    That second seal is a world war that will make WW1+2 look like a church picnic. It literally says that this rider is granted to take peace from the earth. No exclusions, no restrictions. The EARTH. Mankind will now kill one another. ON A GLOBAL SCALE. This was only possible when the first seal or global governance came about under the AC. Whether the AC heads up a global government with 10 regions or the 10 nations rule the world, this is NOT WW 1 or 2 where part of the globe is at war, but other parts remain largely unaffected. In this one, no continent, no nation, no island will be a refuge. No Switzerland or South America, no depths of jungle or remote Antarctic zone. ALL will be involved in this one. Again, while we have seen what we called world wars, large areas were not overrun by bullets and bombs. In this second seal, the world will all be involved.

    So even though we have had what we call world wars we haven't seen anything even close to the scope of the war during the Second Seal.

    The Third Seal is a terrible famine that affects the whole planet. Again, we haven't seen anything like this. Usually when one part of the globe is in famine, another part is fine. This is a natural consequence perhaps of the kind of global warfare and murdering sprees from the second seal, and the global scope again depends on the first seal. Neither of which have happened yet. Have we seen famine? Of course. All thru history, but NOT GLOBAL IN ITS SCOPE. This is something of a horrendously increased order of magnitude. Which makes sense if many of the food producers around the globe lie dead in the fields they should be tending.

    So even though we see famines of great magnitude, they are not the Third Seal covering the globe.

    The Fourth Seal is Death, to kill a fourth of the world with Sword (the second seal) and famine (the third seal) and now 2 new additions to the causes of death under this fourth seal and the fourth rider. Pestilence and Wild Beasts. Pestilence often follows war and famine, and Wild Beasts may arise with a fury that God allows as a judgement on the earth or as a result of man's own tampering and interference with something in nature. However it happens, it happens.

    We are definitely not seeing a fourth of the world dying of war injuries, or famine or pestilence or wild animals. We do see SOME of that and have done all thru history. But the full force of this judgement is suspended, not allowed to happen yet.

    In each seal, it is impossible to look at them literally and say that we are already experiencing them. We are not. We are experiencing some of the normal problems that occur because of sin and rebellion thru all of history, and so to some degree we experience some of these things in a smaller way.

    But till the Restrainer is taken out of the midst, out of the way, 2 Thess 2:7 we do NOT feel the Judgement of God in these things. The Restrainer prevents the full expression of these things. The Seals are still shut.

    As for the Martyrs of the 5th Seal and the cataclysmic earth and universe changes seen in the 6th Seal, again, impossible to view as happening before the Rapture.

    The Martyrs of the 5th Seal start arriving soon after the Trib starts. They are the Martyrs of the Tribulation period, not the ones seen in Chapter 4-5 who are singing about being purchased by the blood and made into a kingdom of priests. Those in front of the throne in ch 4 and 5 are already dressed in white, while the Tribulation Saints are given white garments, and told to rest while the rest of their number who are to be killed even as they are, are fulfilled.

    Stephen and the rest of the martyrs of the church age are already raptured by then, and part of the number of the church. They wear white already. There is a distinction between the church and the Tribulation saints. The trib saints are under the altar, not in front of the throne singing. And they are crying out a different thing.

    and that 6th Seal, anyone who thinks we are in that already is insane. The sky splits like a scroll. The stars are falling to earth, the sun goes black all over the earth. The moon becomes as blood as Joel also said. But this is no fantasy of any blood moon preacher selling a book. This is so bad that whatever it is, it moves the mountains and islands out of their places all over the planet. And those who remain alive at this point want the mountains to fall on them, as they hide in caves and mountains because they say it's the WRATH OF THE LAMB. We are NOT here for that at all and this is all from the first to the last seals, trumpets and bowls, we are NOT here for that, and it is all part of the Wrath of the Lamb, which the world KNOWS and acknowledges from this seal on.
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2019
  2. athenasius

    athenasius Well-Known Member

    Sorry this part should have been in the bit above, but the 24 elders we see in Chapter 4 & 5 are usually considered representative of the church.

    They are casting crowns of the type mentioned as the crowns we in the church get as rewards. They cast them before the throne of Almighty God singing of and to God. They are already glorified, crowned, clothed in white and enthroned before the throne of God before the seals are opened. Contrasted to the martyrs who are under the altar in the next Chapter Rev 6; 9-11. These ones are given a white robe and told to rest a while longer while the number of their fellow servants and brethren who were to be killed, even as they were would be completed.

    These are 2 separate groups. One is a number that is complete before the Rapture takes place, the other is a number that will be completed some time after the 5th seal.

    So the martyrs are under the altar, and remain there as they continue to call for God to avenge their blood on those who dwell on the earth. And the elders, plus the uncountable myriads on myriads continue to sing and cast their crowns. Before the throne of God.

    I was trying to cook dinner and write in on this interesting thread, and I should have made it more clear. Sorry.
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2019
  3. Erin

    Erin Well-Known Member

    Athenasius, I find it amazing that you made a post like that while cooking dinner. :bow
    The Lord had called to my attention as well, the crowns thrown at his feet. The only people I know of to get them are those of us saved during the grace dispensation. SO how could we still be on earth if we are throwing our crowns at our Lord's feet. It's also made me realize the Bema takes place before the Seals even begin.
  4. athenasius

    athenasius Well-Known Member

    Thanks Erin, it's a great subject, and deserves time and attention. In the middle of making ribs for dinner, isn't the best.

    HOWEVER I did take time after dinner to look further into the book Spock mentions by David Lowe, and that book looks (from what I gather thru the reviews online) to be a "pre wrath" position, which is one of the variations on the mid trib rapture position.

    Theologically he is arguing against the pre trib Rapture position. He believes that the Tribulation started with the Church Age, in direct contradiction to the many distinctions in scripture between general tribulation (such as what Christ spoke of with the church of Smyrna) and the GREAT TRIBULATION which has a distinct purpose for Israel (to draw her back to God, and to her Messiah and Lord Jesus) and a distinct purpose for the earth dwellers (on whom the wrath of God, pent up for millennia is falling with the intent of saving some even in the Tribulation, though thru fire).

    His position contradicts the Bible where from that passage in Isaiah 26:19-21 where it says:
    19Your dead will live;
    Their corpses will rise.
    You who lie in the dust, awake and shout for joy,
    For your dew is as the dew of the dawn,
    And the earth will give birth to the departed spirits.

    20Come, my people, enter into your rooms
    And close your doors behind you;
    Hide for a little while
    Until indignation runs its course.

    21For behold, the LORD is about to come out from His place
    To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;
    And the earth will reveal her bloodshed
    And will no longer cover her slain.

    and contradicts Paul in 2 Thess 2: "that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come."

    The wording DAY OF THE LORD is always in reference to this time of severe tribulation, that the Lord removes HIS people from before He punishes the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity.

    Paul essentially makes the point the Day of Tribulation has not come, in fact it can't and won't till the apostasy happens (and some use that phrase to point to the Rapture) and we know this because the man of sin hasn't yet appeared, and he can't make that appearance till THE RESTRAINER is taken UP out of the midst.

    This David W Lowe is directly contradicting Paul the Apostle in 2 Thessalonians. The church age had begun and gone a fair ways too by the time Paul wrote this letter, and yet David Lowe apparently says the great Trib began at the beginning of the church. That was from one of the rave reviews of his book, that Lowe places the Tribulation, at the start of the church age.

    That would be news to Paul who wrote Thessalonians to counter such false teaching. And about 20 years AFTER the church age had begun!

    Mr. Lowe confuses the general tribulation of the church, WITH THE GREAT TRIBULATION, a time that God promised to keep the church from. Paul maintains that we are not there yet.

    Paul is very pithy in his next comments in that chapter. He calls people like David Lowe DECEIVERS and says we shouldn't let them deceive us in vs 3.

    That book by David Lowe is nothing more nor less than an attack on the pre trib Rapture, and it sets forth a mid trib position trying to claim that the Great Wrath only starts at the sixth seal. But the fact is it's the EARTH DWELLERS at that time, who hate God ---who are finally acknowledging the truth of the situation, even while they attempt to hide from God in their utter rebellion.

    The wrath of the Lamb has been falling since the start of the Tribulation, which Daniel clearly pegs at 7 years, and Daniel clearly starts it when the Antichrist signs a 7 year peace treaty. By the 6th seal the people of the earth have already figured out this is God's wrath. But from God's point of view, it starts at the beginning when that treaty is signed.

    And anyone who missed the news regarding the treaty will have a VERY clear mid point to look to, when the AC breaks the treaty and sits in the Temple in Jerusalem calling himself God and demanding worship. Daniel and the Bible call that the MIDPOINT of the trib, not the beginning, or the bit where God's wrath begins, but the midpoint of God's dealings with the earth in His Wrath.

    Anyone like David W Lowe who can confuse general tribulation with the Great Tribulation, ignoring Isaiah, Daniel and Paul isn't going to get much better with the Seals of Chapter 6. He confuses wars, world wars, dictators, famines, plagues, earthquakes and pestilences with the Seals.

    The differences I've listed above, I won't repeat it, but just because we see a famine, doesn't mean we are in the middle of the 3rd Seal.

    Anyways, I'd advise Spock and others to follow Paul's good advice, and avoid David W Lowe as a deceiver. We don't have to read the whole book to understand where he is coming from either because just the excerpts and reviews that are online point out with joy that this man goes against all that Walvoord, Pentecost, Chafer and other great Dispensational teachers have preached. The fans of his books are angry towards dispensational theology and it's distinctions. Dispensational teaching that makes a plain reading of prophecy possible for ordinary people. Furthermore Dave Lowe's book relies on a lot of convoluted arguments to make sense of the ideas that he has. In those arguments he is contradicting scripture.

    Be extremely careful of such people. They enter into churches and trouble the church with fables, false doctrines, introducing teachings that lead people astray and pit brothers and sisters in Christ against each other and against the Word of God.
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2019
  5. chaser

    chaser Well-Known Member

    Very well done and clearly laid out athenasius, thank you.
  6. ByGod'sGrace

    ByGod'sGrace Well-Known Member

    The 7 seals aren't opened until the Tribulation starts (Time of Jacob's Trouble that lasts 7 years). The rapture is before even the first seal is opened (the first seal introduces the Anti-Christ, so I am not in agreement with Mr. Lowe about the first 4 seals already being broken). There are trials and tribulations now, but the first seal opening is The Tribulation. We don't know the day or the hour of the rapture. If you believe in Dispensationalism, the rapture is before the 7 years, before any seals are broken, etc.
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2019
  7. lenraff

    lenraff Well-Known Member

    I would just like to add to my last comment, as I'm sure most here know this. There are no signs for the rapture. It is completely by surprise and that is the nugget of imminence. I don't want to be here during the Gog Magog war, but I'm not going to be tricked into believe it has to happen before we're gone. Imo, that also would be a sign or date setting. If it happens during my life or after matters not, only waking up in Glory. So come what may, tribulations and persecutions, I'm staying watchful and prayed up-Light For The Flight.
  8. athenasius

    athenasius Well-Known Member

    Thanks Spock, (like that name btw, I was a fan of the Classic Jurassic Trek and it's Vulcan hero)

    to answer first off, apologies if I left confusion, but here's the meat of my problem.

    In order to say that the Rapture occurs as a cause of the earthquake of the 6th Seal, Dave has to place the start of the Trib much earlier than the start of the 70th Week. AND that comes about because he is ALSO stating that he thinks we are in the first 4 of the Seal Judgements of Revelation which is another point of departure from the classical pre trib dispensational Rapture as outlined by Walvoord, Pentecost, Chafer, Rhodes, Ice, Woods, La Haye, and many more.

    That's where things get derailed. And it's also where I deeply and completely disagree with him. In looking at his blog, the reviews on Amazon (the more detailed ones that explain why the book is so distinct they point out these preconditions to his interesting idea that the Rapture will cause an earthquake.) It may or may not, that is not my concern.

    It IS concerning to me that Dave places (by one reviewer who appears to heartily agree with Dave) the actual start of the Tribulation around the time of the birth of the church. Pentecost after Calvary or shortly after.

    Paul wrote 2 Thess some 20 years later, and refutes such an idea. The worry of that church was that they WERE IN THE TRIBULATION and had MISSED THE RAPTURE. A logical (can't help the Spockian lingo) conclusion for them since they had been taught that the Rapture would PRECEDE the start of the Day of the Lord (a term which is used in OT and NT both and Paul uses) which covers the whole period of the 70th week, and the whole period of the Tribulation.

    The other really concerning problem is within the structure of Revelation as Jesus outlines it to John. Rev 1:19 NASB "19 Therefore write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after these things."

    This author is changing the structure of Revelation as Jesus outlines it. John has just seen the RISEN glorified LORD. That is what he has seen.

    The things which are, relate to the current church age, the letters to seven literal churches which do contain historical references to actual events that took place in church history. We are still in that period. That is the things which are.

    The things which will take place AFTER these things point to the change in perspective in Chapter 4:1 when John hears the call from heaven to "come up here". I will bold some of the text that I want to emphasize to make a point that the text itself contains a clue as to the division here.

    "After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven, and the first voice which I had heard, like the sound of a trumpet speaking with me, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after these things. 2 Immediately I was in the Spirit; and behold, a throne was standing in heaven, and One sitting on the throne. 3

    I firmly believe that is a reference to Jesus dividing Revelation into the 3 parts, and from chapter 4:1 we are now in the future part of Revelation.

    Please note that the AFTER THESE THINGS phrase is repeated TWICE in this same verse, both before and after that call up to heaven. That is a significant repetition when it echoes Jesus saying it the first time at the beginning of Revelation. It echoes Rev 1:19 not once but TWICE. On either side of what most pre trib dispensational teachers see as a Rapture reference.

    chapter 4 & 5 is an interval in heaven in which the 24 elders are before God praising Him and casting crowns, dressed in white, and then myriads on myriads are visible, also. This is the church age saints, raptured and in possession of their rewards which they cast before the throne of God.

    ONLY in Chapter 6 do we see the seals opening. I'm not going to repeat what I wrote above, as to why I think it's a gross error to place the seal opening at any point prior to the Rapture.

    Because I cannot and will not accept this author's view of the Seals and of the beginning of the Tribulation, I continue to call him a mid tribber simply because he is placing the Rapture at the 6th Seal (the earthquake and the realization of the earth dwellers, that finally dawns on them, that yup we are in the Wrath of the Lamb stuff now and we need to hide from the Lamb) It's that verse that many a mid tribber points to, and divides the Tribulation into 2 parts, with the latter bit being the baddest part, and the part we get rescued out of. The problem with that is of course, this verse is simply stating what unsaved humanity is saying in response to this seal. From God's viewpoint those seals are in the part of Revelation after the church age, beginning from the opening of the FIRST SEAL.

    I realize he does not call himself a mid tribber, in fact he says he is pre 70th week as for the Rapture, but in order to say that, and have us believe it, he has to change the usual definition of the tribulation to include the seals before the 70th week begins.

    So what you have is me on one corner saying NOPE, not going to agree with his presuppositions and him on the other corner saying NOPE, not going to agree with her.

    Reading his book is not happening even for purposes of a zingy negative review because I refuse to waste money on a book that has those presuppositions as the foundations of his thesis. I am not, nor ever will be in agreement with such convoluted reasoning when the plain sense of Scripture makes perfect sense. (to slightly misquote David Cooper I think who said when the plain sense of the Bible makes sense, seek no other sense, lest you be found in nonsense. Often quoted by Dr Ron Rhodes and others like Dr David Reagan and I think Tommy Ice too.)

    Anyway I hope that clears it up a bit better. No hard feelings, just not ever going to agree with that author on that subject, and I view such books as causing deception as Paul said of the one causing the trouble in the Thessalonian church. I don't mind if you or anyone else holds a different view, just I'm not going to change on this one.
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2019
  9. Everlasting Life

    Everlasting Life Through Faith in Jesus

    Great posts athenasius!!

    And that therein is the problem. One needs to be reading the bible first, asking the Holy Spirit to give wisdom and understanding. Then, where man diverges, the bible must be held up as the truth, even if it's not understandable at the time (God in His time can bring understanding). A little error leads to greater and greater arcs of error and one must carefully guard against it.
  10. Chris

    Chris Administrator Staff Member

    David Lowe was debunked long ago when he was a "hot item" with his book. I haven't heard that name mentioned in 10 years or so. We may still have some old threads on it. But we do not support Lowe's teachings, so we don't allow them here.

    Thank you for spelling out his errors for people who did not know. That was a public service message. :lol

    BTW, this Spock was being "illogical" and quite rude on the forums to Adrian and a couple of other posters, which resulted in several report a posts being made. So, he is on vacation for the time being. He won't be responding for a while. Just so you know.
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2019
  11. Erin

    Erin Well-Known Member

    I know and understand how sneaky satan can be! I don't know if you are still on here Spock but I will be praying for you. Praying that the Lord will open your eyes with wisdom so you may see the truth.
  12. athenasius

    athenasius Well-Known Member

    I'd never heard of the book before, and it was a bit startling to see what all that book was about. If I'd had time to think, there were far better arguments I should have used, but that night I kept thinking when you play football or hockey, you don't get to change the goalposts to include all the sidelines and beyond, and claim a touchdown goal win by stumbling off into left field. That author did that by changing the definition of the Tribulation and doing that in order to shove his pet idea into the 5th Seal.

    The odd thing is, if that author wanted to make a case for a massive earthquake at the Rapture, he could have left it at that.

    He didn't need to go bending Scripture to say things it doesn't mean in order to make it fit into one of the Seals and change the definition of the Tribulation. Anytime I see someone bending Scripture to make it fit their pet idea, it always gets worse.

    I remember a home fellowship leader in the late 80's in that bad church we used to attend back then. He would say something proper and normal, but then he'd bend scriptures by using references that didn't fit, EVEN WHEN BETTER SCRIPTURES ALREADY COVERED THE TEACHING IN A NORMAL FASHION. I'd routinely interrupt and say Oh you mean like in 2 Peter etc, pulling it back to a verse that actually taught that.

    I got tired of being the constant interrupter, (and so did the group, people rolled the eyes, and sighed a lot) and being younger and stupider, I quit interrupting, and watched.

    What happened next I've never ever forgot. It was horrific. After the first couple of weeks, that leader QUIT TEACHING NORMAL DOCTRINE and started in teaching the "Manifested Sons of God" heresy. We left the group, and informed the pastor and it was shut down but a lot of people loved that teaching and it resurfaced later as that pastor introduced the "toronto blessing" and NAR stuff as well as Kansas City "profits".

    What I took away from that was the lesson that this is how false prophets enter a church. They come in on an interesting idea that has some merit. Then when they have you intrigued, they start bending scripture. When you get used to that, they start bringing in heresy in small doses. The flock who fails to check it against Scripture like Bereans should, become used to scripture being twisted, and next thing you know their discernment is almost like it's switched off like a light switch and then the bad stuff really starts. But what is sad is the way these wolves use the FLOCK who take the bait, to spread the poison.

    Enough said, I hope and pray Spock sees that I didn't mean him any harm, just that book set all my alarm bells off so loudly I couldn't even cook supper properly or rest afterwards. I don't set my hair on fire for every little thing, but that wasn't little.
  13. mattfivefour

    mattfivefour Administrator Staff Member

  14. ByGod'sGrace

    ByGod'sGrace Well-Known Member

    Sis, you did a great job in your replies. You showed kindness and graciousness, but stood up for the truth and did what we are called to do....check with scripture like the Bereans! :) I respect how you handled yourself in a situation like this.
  15. Erin

    Erin Well-Known Member

    Athenasius, I thought you did a wonderful job. I had planned to post a response but ByGod'sGrace did it so much more elequently than I could!
  16. ByGod'sGrace

    ByGod'sGrace Well-Known Member

    Looking forward to meeting you all in heaven someday! So awesome to have fellowship and support this way. :)
  17. mattfivefour

    mattfivefour Administrator Staff Member


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