I completely agree. Dr Andy Woods was teaching on this recently, and he was pointing out that the phrase Come Up Here in the Greek is the same as when Paul talks of us being caught up. So again, more weight to the traditional interpretation that Rev 4:1 is the Rapture as seen thru John's eyes. Rev 1:19 JESUS HIMSELF divides the book of Revelation, into the things which "you have seen" referring to John seeing Christ, "the things which are" which are the 7 churches which are 7 literal churches, but also 7 church eras, and 4 out of those 7 have mentions of the Tribulation. and "the things that will take place AFTER THESE THINGS". The next verse after the last bits to the churches of the church age says Come UP HERE! From chapter 4 "Come up here" to the end of Chapter 5, we see heaven, and the Lamb and HE takes the scroll and in V1 of chap 6 HE begins to open the seals. To the point of the seals mentioned up thread by Spock. I have a problem with any teaching that attempts to fit the seals in the present time and here is why. The first 4 seals are the deadly quartet of riders. The first one comes conquering and to conquer--plus he has a bow, but no arrows. He is often thought of as the Antichrist because of this and that is my own view as well. He conquers thru deception and intrigue which are known characteristics of the AC in other passages, which fits with the bow without arrows, that he conquers with. By peaceful means, by deception. We have NOT yet seen the world ruler arise on the scene as such. We might see him already on the world stage in some capacity, but his fulfillment of prophecy is yet to be. And Paul in 2 Thess 2 points out in v 2-3 we WON'T be here for that. That whole passage is a reassurance that we don't have to be here for the Day of the Lord which is a term used in both the OT and NT for the Trib. PAUL DOES NOT SPLIT the tribulation into parts. We are not here for any of it. The Day of the Lord covers the beginning, which is set off by the AC signing a treaty with Israel and the many commonly thought of as the nations right to the end when Jesus appears and ends it all. That Treaty is the starter pistol. And it can't happen till we are out of the way. And the Restrainer stops restraining the AC from appearing. There is simply no way we have a global ruler yet, no matter how we twist the headlines. So we aren't in the First Seal, nor have we seen any part of that. The RESTRAINER (v 7) continues to restrain that one from appearing until the RESTRAINER is taken out of the way. That second seal is a world war that will make WW1+2 look like a church picnic. It literally says that this rider is granted to take peace from the earth. No exclusions, no restrictions. The EARTH. Mankind will now kill one another. ON A GLOBAL SCALE. This was only possible when the first seal or global governance came about under the AC. Whether the AC heads up a global government with 10 regions or the 10 nations rule the world, this is NOT WW 1 or 2 where part of the globe is at war, but other parts remain largely unaffected. In this one, no continent, no nation, no island will be a refuge. No Switzerland or South America, no depths of jungle or remote Antarctic zone. ALL will be involved in this one. Again, while we have seen what we called world wars, large areas were not overrun by bullets and bombs. In this second seal, the world will all be involved. So even though we have had what we call world wars we haven't seen anything even close to the scope of the war during the Second Seal. The Third Seal is a terrible famine that affects the whole planet. Again, we haven't seen anything like this. Usually when one part of the globe is in famine, another part is fine. This is a natural consequence perhaps of the kind of global warfare and murdering sprees from the second seal, and the global scope again depends on the first seal. Neither of which have happened yet. Have we seen famine? Of course. All thru history, but NOT GLOBAL IN ITS SCOPE. This is something of a horrendously increased order of magnitude. Which makes sense if many of the food producers around the globe lie dead in the fields they should be tending. So even though we see famines of great magnitude, they are not the Third Seal covering the globe. The Fourth Seal is Death, to kill a fourth of the world with Sword (the second seal) and famine (the third seal) and now 2 new additions to the causes of death under this fourth seal and the fourth rider. Pestilence and Wild Beasts. Pestilence often follows war and famine, and Wild Beasts may arise with a fury that God allows as a judgement on the earth or as a result of man's own tampering and interference with something in nature. However it happens, it happens. We are definitely not seeing a fourth of the world dying of war injuries, or famine or pestilence or wild animals. We do see SOME of that and have done all thru history. But the full force of this judgement is suspended, not allowed to happen yet. In each seal, it is impossible to look at them literally and say that we are already experiencing them. We are not. We are experiencing some of the normal problems that occur because of sin and rebellion thru all of history, and so to some degree we experience some of these things in a smaller way. But till the Restrainer is taken out of the midst, out of the way, 2 Thess 2:7 we do NOT feel the Judgement of God in these things. The Restrainer prevents the full expression of these things. The Seals are still shut. As for the Martyrs of the 5th Seal and the cataclysmic earth and universe changes seen in the 6th Seal, again, impossible to view as happening before the Rapture. The Martyrs of the 5th Seal start arriving soon after the Trib starts. They are the Martyrs of the Tribulation period, not the ones seen in Chapter 4-5 who are singing about being purchased by the blood and made into a kingdom of priests. Those in front of the throne in ch 4 and 5 are already dressed in white, while the Tribulation Saints are given white garments, and told to rest while the rest of their number who are to be killed even as they are, are fulfilled. Stephen and the rest of the martyrs of the church age are already raptured by then, and part of the number of the church. They wear white already. There is a distinction between the church and the Tribulation saints. The trib saints are under the altar, not in front of the throne singing. And they are crying out a different thing. and that 6th Seal, anyone who thinks we are in that already is insane. The sky splits like a scroll. The stars are falling to earth, the sun goes black all over the earth. The moon becomes as blood as Joel also said. But this is no fantasy of any blood moon preacher selling a book. This is so bad that whatever it is, it moves the mountains and islands out of their places all over the planet. And those who remain alive at this point want the mountains to fall on them, as they hide in caves and mountains because they say it's the WRATH OF THE LAMB. We are NOT here for that at all and this is all from the first to the last seals, trumpets and bowls, we are NOT here for that, and it is all part of the Wrath of the Lamb, which the world KNOWS and acknowledges from this seal on.