Ezekiel 38:1-6 Follow-up to Other Thread

[Ghoti Ichthus]

As promised in my Post #59 in
https://www.raptureforums.com/forums/threads/a-sense-of-the-nearness.190751/page-3#post-843601820
@Andy C

Sorry this is not what I had hoped to post, but simply too exhausted and sick to think do much

I think we have been seeing the start of Ezekiel 38

38 And the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,
2 Son of man, set thy face against Gog, the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him,
3 And say, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:
4 And I will turn thee back,

Thus far, Russia has moved south, invading Ukraine. Russia has stolen most of the grain Ukraine has stored (Russia had below average harvest in 2021 and Ukraine had very large, and both rely econimically on grain exports). I think God is helping Ukraine fight back and push Russia back. Ukraine has taken the offensive in some places in Russia, but still defensive in eastern/southern Ukraine. If they lose Mariupol and Odessa, they're land-locked and essentially surrounded by Russia and allies and those extorted so they're not the next Ukraine.


4 (CONTINUED) and put hooks into thy jaws, and I will bring thee forth, and all thine army, horses and horsemen, all of them clothed with all sorts of armour, even a great company with bucklers and shields, all of them handling swords:
5 Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya with them; all of them with shield and helmet:
6 Gomer, and all his bands; the house of Togarmah of the north quarters, and all his bands: and many people with thee.

I think Russia will eventually turn around again and head back south, but this time with other countries.
Putin has threatened France and Germany with repercussions if they don’t buy Russian energy. Both are part of Gomer.
Putin has threatened some of the old Soviet-Bloc countries with Ukraine-like destruction if they don't stop helping/interfering
Putin has threatened repercussions if Finland and Sweden join NATO
Putin is unhappy because of expansion of NATO after break-up of USSR and WARSAWPACT, claiming the expansion threatens Russian sovereignty. Previous Russian leaders not a problem with it.
It only takes one NATO member to veto a new member. Turkey, as a muslim country allied with Russia and other muslim countries, might do this. France or Germany might do this under current threat and extortion from Russia, or another country not wanting to become the next Ukraine. France and Germany hold a lot of influence in NATO from size alone
Russia is and has been unhappy with the economic isolation that has happened since after WWII
Putin has become more unhappy with current economic sanctions
Putin has threatened use of nuclear weapons
Putin has threatened Israel over use of their airplanes and troops in Ukraine, including blowing up airplanes and attacking Israel with missiles
Russia has alliances with north African and Middle East countries
Modern warfare, every Soldier gets a weapon issued. This wasn't the case in Biblical times. Night time fighting, every 5th Soldier actually carried a lantern so others could see what they were doing. Etc.
A coalition (nations in company with one another) means a variety of uniforms, equipment, and weapons (all sorts of armour), instead of just one country's standard issue.

 

[Andy C]

As promised in my Post #59 in
https://www.raptureforums.com/forums/threads/a-sense-of-the-nearness.190751/page-3#post-843601820
@Andy C

Sorry this is not what I had hoped to post, but simply too exhausted and sick to think do much

I think we have been seeing the start of Ezekiel 38

38 And the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,
2 Son of man, set thy face against Gog, the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him,
3 And say, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:
4 And I will turn thee back,

Thus far, Russia has moved south, invading Ukraine. Russia has stolen most of the grain Ukraine has stored (Russia had below average harvest in 2021 and Ukraine had very large, and both rely econimically on grain exports). I think God is helping Ukraine fight back and push Russia back. Ukraine has taken the offensive in some places in Russia, but still defensive in eastern/southern Ukraine. If they lose Mariupol and Odessa, they're land-locked and essentially surrounded by Russia and allies and those extorted so they're not the next Ukraine.


4 (CONTINUED) and put hooks into thy jaws, and I will bring thee forth, and all thine army, horses and horsemen, all of them clothed with all sorts of armour, even a great company with bucklers and shields, all of them handling swords:
5 Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya with them; all of them with shield and helmet:
6 Gomer, and all his bands; the house of Togarmah of the north quarters, and all his bands: and many people with thee.

I think Russia will eventually turn around again and head back south, but this time with other countries.
Putin has threatened France and Germany with repercussions if they don’t buy Russian energy. Both are part of Gomer.
Putin has threatened some of the old Soviet-Bloc countries with Ukraine-like destruction if they don't stop helping/interfering
Putin has threatened repercussions if Finland and Sweden join NATO
Putin is unhappy because of expansion of NATO after break-up of USSR and WARSAWPACT, claiming the expansion threatens Russian sovereignty. Previous Russian leaders not a problem with it.
It only takes one NATO member to veto a new member. Turkey, as a muslim country allied with Russia and other muslim countries, might do this. France or Germany might do this under current threat and extortion from Russia, or another country not wanting to become the next Ukraine. France and Germany hold a lot of influence in NATO from size alone
Russia is and has been unhappy with the economic isolation that has happened since after WWII
Putin has become more unhappy with current economic sanctions
Putin has threatened use of nuclear weapons
Putin has threatened Israel over use of their airplanes and troops in Ukraine, including blowing up airplanes and attacking Israel with missiles
Russia has alliances with north African and Middle East countries
Modern warfare, every Soldier gets a weapon issued. This wasn't the case in Biblical times. Night time fighting, every 5th Soldier actually carried a lantern so others could see what they were doing. Etc.
A coalition (nations in company with one another) means a variety of uniforms, equipment, and weapons (all sorts of armour), instead of just one country's standard issue.

Maybe, Im not sure yet what we are seeing. Another month of heavy losses, and Russia may no longer be capable of advancing anywhere. They could need years to strengthen their military. They have already proved they lack combat skills and leadership to win a big fight. Logistically, I would think they would perform even worse in trying to move enough troops to the Israel border.

 

[daygo]

Maybe, Im not sure yet what we are seeing. Another month of heavy losses, and Russia may no longer be capable of advancing anywhere. They could need years to strengthen their military. They have already proved they lack combat skills and leadership to win a big fight. Logistically, I would think they would perform even worse in trying to move enough troops to the Israel border.

Agree Andy, lot to ponder on where all this is going.

 

[Armor of Light]

Maybe Putin gets replaced soon, his replacement has a better Military mind and decides to make a joint operation with a few other natural resource hungry countries, like maybe Turkey/Iran/maybe China and some north African countries(Cush) , just thinking out loud here while enduring a migraine, probably not a good time to be posting.

 

[daygo]

Maybe Putin gets replaced soon, his replacement has a better Military mind and decides to make a joint operation with a few other natural resource hungry countries, like maybe Turkey/Iran/maybe China and some north African countries(Cush) , just thinking out loud here while enduring a migraine, probably not a good time to be posting.

That's a possibility, after all there's talk of a coup.

 

[Ghoti Ichthus]

I still think Russia is suckering in the world so we think they are less capable than they really are, and so we use up a lot of resources that we might need later against them in our own/NATO's defense. I grew up in during the Cold War and served in the Army far too many years in the Cold War to trust what we're seeing as what Russia's actual capabilities are.

If what we're seeing is actually Russia's capabilities, a coalition would improve them and permit a more successful and sustained campaign. Starting in verse 4, there is indication of a coalition on Russia's next move south (assuming what is going on now is the first part of verse 4).

 

[crunchymama]

It makes sense to me, and it gets us closer to the EZ 38 war which gets us closer to the Trib which gets us closer to the Rapture so I like it lol

 

[katt]

I still think Russia is suckering in the world so we think they are less capable than they really are, and so we use up a lot of resources that we might need later against them in our own/NATO's defense. I grew up in during the Cold War and served in the Army far too many years in the Cold War to trust what we're seeing as what Russia's actual capabilities are.

If what we're seeing is actually Russia's capabilities, a coalition would improve them and permit a more successful and sustained campaign. Starting in verse 4, there is indication of a coalition on Russia's next move south (assuming what is going on now is the first part of verse 4).

I agree..according to EZ 38..Gog and it's coalition is far better equipped than Puten is letting on at the moment..I don't believe they have a sudden burst of improvement in thier weaponry...they are armed to the teeth in EZ 38..and unless that war dosen't happen for the next 25 to 50 years or much later..I'm sure the Islamics will be able to supply Gog with anything and everything it needs (they have weapons we don't know about..thinking Sadam Hussein and Iran here )..if he needs anything at all...and I don't think he will..there's a reason the Islamics force the issue with Gog..he not only owes them but is much stronger militarily than they are...

 

[Spartan Sprinter 1]

I heard a recent Andy Woods sermon where he holds a unique position that the Ezekiel 38 event could coincide with the 2nd seal judgement .

I found it interesting

 

[Tall Timbers]

Maybe Putin gets replaced soon, his replacement has a better Military mind and decides to make a joint operation with a few other natural resource hungry countries, like maybe Turkey/Iran/maybe China and some north African countries(Cush) , just thinking out loud here while enduring a migraine, probably not a good time to be posting.

It goes beyond a military mind. You need disciplined troops combined with real leaders. It is apparent that the Russian military is corrupt at every level and that significantly weighs against them on the battlefield.

 

[Tall Timbers]

I still think Russia is suckering in the world so we think they are less capable than they really are, and so we use up a lot of resources that we might need later against them in our own/NATO's defense.

I think Russia has shown us its best on the battlefield minus WMD. If Putin chose to, he could turn the entirety of Ukraine into a sea of glass in minutes. We already saw what the US did to the Wagner group when they approached a US position in Syria.

 

[Tall Timbers]

Russia's experience with Ukraine may be what leads them not to want to go up against a much more powerful adversary in Israel, but God has other plans and puts a hook in their jaw.

 

[daygo]

I heard a recent Andy Woods sermon where he holds a unique position that the Ezekiel 38 event could coincide with the 2nd seal judgement .

I found it interesting

Can't see it myself, just doesn't make any sense.

 

[katt]

It goes beyond a military mind. You need disciplined troops combined with real leaders. It is apparent that the Russian military is corrupt at every level and that significantly weighs against them on the battlefield.

It has always been corrupt..the communist government of The Soviet Union never did take care of it's military personnel..and neither does Russa now that it stands alone..so to speak..

 

[Spartan Sprinter 1]

Can't see it myself, just doesn't make any sense.

I think the argument that he was putting forth for his position was that the Antichrist creates a false peace which would make suit the conditions of why Israel is living with a mindset of being in peace and having unwalled villages before Gog and his coalition attacks.

It's a new viewpoint that i haven't heard before but am kind of looking into it a bit more just out of curiosity

 

[Rome36863]

Eze 39:17 And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.
Eze 39:18 Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan.
Eze 39:19 And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you.
Eze 39:20 Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord GOD.
Eze 39:21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them. Rev 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
Rev 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Two mentions of the birds being called together when all the remaining armies of the world are destroyed by Christ Jesus. I don't know why it caught my eye when it did. Just something to think about.

 

[ChildofLight]

I agree..according to EZ 38..Gog and it's coalition is far better equipped than Puten is letting on at the moment..I don't believe they have a sudden burst of improvement in thier weaponry...they are armed to the teeth in EZ 38..and unless that war dosen't happen for the next 25 to 50 years or much later..I'm sure the Islamics will be able to supply Gog with anything and everything it needs (they have weapons we don't know about..thinking Sadam Hussein and Iran here )..if he needs anything at all...and I don't think he will..there's a reason the Islamics force the issue with Gog..he not only owes them but is much stronger militarily than they are...

No matter how good or bad their military will be, it’s not going to end well for them regardless.

 

[daygo]

No matter how good or bad their military will be, it’s not going to end well for them regardless.

Agree.

 

[athenasius]

I heard a recent Andy Woods sermon where he holds a unique position that the Ezekiel 38 event could coincide with the 2nd seal judgement .

I found it interesting

I moved our discussion over into here, on Andy Wood's idea of when the GM takes place. Sorry for the repeat.

My problem with Andy's time frame, tying the Gog Magog invasion to the Second Seal, and why I don't agree (but it is plausible) is what do you do with the Antichrist?

Andy's timing has the AC arriving on the scene with the First Seal-- making that peace agreement with Israel that kicks off the Tribulation. That part nearly everyone agrees with, it's the normal view. AC arrives in the First Seal as the first horseman.

The problem with Gog Magog invading at the time of the Second Seal, is the fact that according to Ezek 38, NOBODY comes to defend Israel, and the ONLY nations that even speak up are Tarshish, her cubs and Sheba and Dedan. THOSE ARE NOT WHERE THE AC COMES FROM.

So now with Andy's theory we have the AC making a peace covenant with Israel (and that is the thing that kicks off the Tribulation) BEFORE the Second Seal war (the second horseman) BUT ANDY puts GOG MAGOG in AFTER this peace covenant is signed.

So with Andy's theory we have a sudden invasion of Israel, who is living in a false sense of security (which Andy theorizes is due to them signing on with the Antichrist who guarantees their peace) and when they are invaded NOBODY comes to help, and GOD ALONE delivers them. This is not something that anyone at the time will get confused about, God sets it up so that Israel HAS to see that it is GOD and GOD ALONE who is their deliverer. Same with the other gentile nations-- this is God's signature act showing who HE IS to all.

So if God sets it up so that He alone gets the credit, and the only nations that question are Tarshish, cubs, Sheba and Dedan then where is the ANTICHRIST in this? He is a no show. I say it is because the Gog Magog takes place BEFORE the peace covenant that sets off the Trib. But Andy says it's after this peace covenant.

So now we have a no show with the AC, and Israel is now supposed to trust the AC for the next 3.5 years or so till the midpoint of the Tribulation when their eyes are opened as a result of the Abomination of Desolation.

You can't have it both ways. Israel wouldn't trust the AC after that no show IF Andy's theory is correct.

What is more logical is this sequence of events:

Rapture followed by a brief time but not too long because in Ezek 38 the nations (gentiles) Don't KNOW GOD and God is making Himself known to them but also mainly to Israel now. So there are no Christians among the nations at that time

Gog Magog occurs shortly after the Rapture, making it impossible to ignore God whether Jew or Gentile. EVERYONE now knows God, the true God, who destroyed Gog Magog is the REAL God, and He is the God of ISRAEL. People start getting saved again

NEXT the Antichrist rises --this could also be a very brief time-- and Israel still isn't trusting God so they sign his covenant because they don't want to get caught like that again, Gog Magog being fresh in their memory.

Signing the covenant kicks off the Tribulation. 7 months of body burying and 7 years of burning weapons are not simultaneous with the Tribulation, but they begin with the day after Gog Magog, and continue thru much if not all of the Tribulation. They could easily go beyond into the Millennium because Andy's point about Babylon burning thru the Millennium is correct. There is no reason why weapons couldn't burn for a bit into the front end of the Millennium

But the thing that prevents me from agreeing with Andy's point about the Gog Magog event being the Second Seal war is that places the AC agreement for peace before a war that the AC doesn't show up for. Which breaks that covenant right after it's made, and makes the trust the Jews have in the AC for the first half of the Tribulation kind of weird.

 

[Andy C]

I moved our discussion over into here, on Andy Wood's idea of when the GM takes place. Sorry for the repeat.

My problem with Andy's time frame, tying the Gog Magog invasion to the Second Seal, and why I don't agree (but it is plausible) is what do you do with the Antichrist?

Andy's timing has the AC arriving on the scene with the First Seal-- making that peace agreement with Israel that kicks off the Tribulation. That part nearly everyone agrees with, it's the normal view. AC arrives in the First Seal as the first horseman.

The problem with Gog Magog invading at the time of the Second Seal, is the fact that according to Ezek 38, NOBODY comes to defend Israel, and the ONLY nations that even speak up are Tarshish, her cubs and Sheba and Dedan. THOSE ARE NOT WHERE THE AC COMES FROM.

So now with Andy's theory we have the AC making a peace covenant with Israel (and that is the thing that kicks off the Tribulation) BEFORE the Second Seal war (the second horseman) BUT ANDY puts GOG MAGOG in AFTER this peace covenant is signed.

So with Andy's theory we have a sudden invasion of Israel, who is living in a false sense of security (which Andy theorizes is due to them signing on with the Antichrist who guarantees their peace) and when they are invaded NOBODY comes to help, and GOD ALONE delivers them. This is not something that anyone at the time will get confused about, God sets it up so that Israel HAS to see that it is GOD and GOD ALONE who is their deliverer. Same with the other gentile nations-- this is God's signature act showing who HE IS to all.

So if God sets it up so that He alone gets the credit, and the only nations that question are Tarshish, cubs, Sheba and Dedan then where is the ANTICHRIST in this? He is a no show. I say it is because the Gog Magog takes place BEFORE the peace covenant that sets off the Trib. But Andy says it's after this peace covenant.

So now we have a no show with the AC, and Israel is now supposed to trust the AC for the next 3.5 years or so till the midpoint of the Tribulation when their eyes are opened as a result of the Abomination of Desolation.

You can't have it both ways. Israel wouldn't trust the AC after that no show IF Andy's theory is correct.

What is more logical is this sequence of events:

Rapture followed by a brief time but not too long because in Ezek 38 the nations (gentiles) Don't KNOW GOD and God is making Himself known to them but also mainly to Israel now. So there are no Christians among the nations at that time

Gog Magog occurs shortly after the Rapture, making it impossible to ignore God whether Jew or Gentile. EVERYONE now knows God, the true God, who destroyed Gog Magog is the REAL God, and He is the God of ISRAEL. People start getting saved again

NEXT the Antichrist rises --this could also be a very brief time-- and Israel still isn't trusting God so they sign his covenant because they don't want to get caught like that again, Gog Magog being fresh in their memory.

Signing the covenant kicks off the Tribulation. 7 months of body burying and 7 years of burning weapons are not simultaneous with the Tribulation, but they begin with the day after Gog Magog, and continue thru much if not all of the Tribulation. They could easily go beyond into the Millennium because Andy's point about Babylon burning thru the Millennium is correct. There is no reason why weapons couldn't burn for a bit into the front end of the Millennium

But the thing that prevents me from agreeing with Andy's point about the Gog Magog event being the Second Seal war is that places the AC agreement for peace before a war that the AC doesn't show up for. Which breaks that covenant right after it's made, and makes the trust the Jews have in the AC for the first half of the Tribulation kind of weird.

Good points raised in a counter to Andy Woods. I concur with your excellent post.