Salluz
Aspiring Man of God
I'm struggling through some of the verses at the end of Ecclesiastes 3, specifically these:
18 I said to myself, “This happens concerning people, so that God may test them and they may see for themselves that they are like animals.” 19 For the fate of people and the fate of animals is the same. As one dies, so dies the other; they all have the same breath. People have no advantage over animals since everything is futile. 20 All are going to the same place; all come from dust, and all return to dust. 21 Who knows if the spirit of people rises upward and the spirit of animals goes downward to the earth? 22 I have seen that there is nothing better than for a person to enjoy his activities because that is his reward. For who can enable him to see what will happen after he dies?
I'd like to post my thoughts on this, and then hopefully someone will correct me if I am wrong.
What I've been thinking about is the Old Testament view of what happens after death. I know I made a thread about this a few months back in the context of "no one praises you from the grave," but only @DanLMP responded to that one (Thanks, Dan! ). I'd like to list out some verses I think are relevant to the discussion and write out my thoughts here.
The first thing about the old testament conception of the afterlife is that they knew there would be a resurrection, and this seems to be what they placed their hope in--much more than the state in between death and the resurrection. The main example of a verse detailing the hope of the resurrection in the Old Testament is in Job 19. Even then, only the KJV seems really certain about it, translating it
25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.
In other versions like the NIV, HCSB, ESV, ETC (haha), every other word has a footnote saying it could mean something else, like the phrase "in my flesh" possibly also meaning "without my flesh" (How does that work?). The only reason I'm positive the OT believers believed in a resurrection, whether they used Job as evidence or not, is because it is mentioned several times in the New Testament that the Sadduccees were going around trying to convince people there would be no resurrection, but the Pharisees believed in the resurrection of the dead.
Acts 23: 6 Then Paul, knowing that some of them were Sadducees and the others Pharisees, called out in the Sanhedrin, “My brothers, I am a Pharisee, descended from Pharisees. I stand on trial because of the hope of the resurrection of the dead.” 7 When he said this, a dispute broke out between the Pharisees and the Sadducees, and the assembly was divided. 8 (The Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, and that there are neither angels nor spirits, but the Pharisees believe all these things.)
The fact that the Pharisees believed in the resurrection of the dead is proof enough for me that the idea certainly didn't originate with Jesus. The pharisees weren't exactly big fans of his, so they wouldn't have taken his word for it and backed him up. This leads me to believe that the Job verse really should be translated with the resurrection in mind, otherwise it doesn't make much sense, considering the lack of information about what the spirit was up to after death.
The new information Jesus did seem to bring to the table was the specifics of what comes immediately after death preceding the judgment and resurrection. Luke 16 with the story of the rich man and Lazarus is the first place I know of in the bible that mentions the specifics of Sheol/Hades, namely that everyone was conscious (no soul sleep) and a great divide separated torments from paradise/Abraham's Bosom. We now know from Paul when you are "absent from the body" you are "present with the Lord" (2 Corinthians 5:8).
Solomon's (can we assume Solomon wrote Ecclesiastes?) doubts in regards to what happens to the human, IE "21 Who knows if the spirit of people rises upward and the spirit of animals goes downward to the earth?" seem consistent with verses like Isaiah 38:18 "For the grave cannot praise you, death cannot sing your praise; those who go down to the pit cannot hope for your faithfulness." and Psalm 30:9 ""What is gained if I am silenced, if I go down to the pit? Will the dust praise you? Will it proclaim your faithfulness?" the focus in the OT seems to be on what they knew for certain, the lives they currently lived.
Something that throws a wrench in most translations being clear that Solomon had doubt about the existence of an afterlife before the eventual resurrection is the KJV translation which says "21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth? " and turns it into a rhetorical question expressing certainty in the destination of mankind before the resurrection. But knowing that Sheol contained both torments and paradise, and was presumably in the earth, wouldn't it make more sense for mankind to go "downward to the earth" like animals? And what does it mean for the spirit of an animal to go down into the earth? My first thought is that this might be talking about the spirit decaying with the body, again something like a soul sleep? So not positionally -minded like I first mentioned, but contrasting sleep/grave with existence. Whichever it was, it makes more sense to me for Solomon to have questioned whether humans and animals share the same fate in the grave before the resurrection rather than being certain about it.
We do know for sure that besides the comparison that humans and animals are both dust, people in the Old Testament knew that humans were unique being made in the image of God from genesis and humans ruling over animals. The purpose of the passage seems to be two-fold of encouraging humility and encouraging people to live godly lives now (and be thankful for the blessings God gives in this life)
If anyone could follow my stream of consciousness style exposition, some feedback would be lovely
18 I said to myself, “This happens concerning people, so that God may test them and they may see for themselves that they are like animals.” 19 For the fate of people and the fate of animals is the same. As one dies, so dies the other; they all have the same breath. People have no advantage over animals since everything is futile. 20 All are going to the same place; all come from dust, and all return to dust. 21 Who knows if the spirit of people rises upward and the spirit of animals goes downward to the earth? 22 I have seen that there is nothing better than for a person to enjoy his activities because that is his reward. For who can enable him to see what will happen after he dies?
I'd like to post my thoughts on this, and then hopefully someone will correct me if I am wrong.
What I've been thinking about is the Old Testament view of what happens after death. I know I made a thread about this a few months back in the context of "no one praises you from the grave," but only @DanLMP responded to that one (Thanks, Dan! ). I'd like to list out some verses I think are relevant to the discussion and write out my thoughts here.
The first thing about the old testament conception of the afterlife is that they knew there would be a resurrection, and this seems to be what they placed their hope in--much more than the state in between death and the resurrection. The main example of a verse detailing the hope of the resurrection in the Old Testament is in Job 19. Even then, only the KJV seems really certain about it, translating it
25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.
In other versions like the NIV, HCSB, ESV, ETC (haha), every other word has a footnote saying it could mean something else, like the phrase "in my flesh" possibly also meaning "without my flesh" (How does that work?). The only reason I'm positive the OT believers believed in a resurrection, whether they used Job as evidence or not, is because it is mentioned several times in the New Testament that the Sadduccees were going around trying to convince people there would be no resurrection, but the Pharisees believed in the resurrection of the dead.
Acts 23: 6 Then Paul, knowing that some of them were Sadducees and the others Pharisees, called out in the Sanhedrin, “My brothers, I am a Pharisee, descended from Pharisees. I stand on trial because of the hope of the resurrection of the dead.” 7 When he said this, a dispute broke out between the Pharisees and the Sadducees, and the assembly was divided. 8 (The Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, and that there are neither angels nor spirits, but the Pharisees believe all these things.)
The fact that the Pharisees believed in the resurrection of the dead is proof enough for me that the idea certainly didn't originate with Jesus. The pharisees weren't exactly big fans of his, so they wouldn't have taken his word for it and backed him up. This leads me to believe that the Job verse really should be translated with the resurrection in mind, otherwise it doesn't make much sense, considering the lack of information about what the spirit was up to after death.
The new information Jesus did seem to bring to the table was the specifics of what comes immediately after death preceding the judgment and resurrection. Luke 16 with the story of the rich man and Lazarus is the first place I know of in the bible that mentions the specifics of Sheol/Hades, namely that everyone was conscious (no soul sleep) and a great divide separated torments from paradise/Abraham's Bosom. We now know from Paul when you are "absent from the body" you are "present with the Lord" (2 Corinthians 5:8).
Solomon's (can we assume Solomon wrote Ecclesiastes?) doubts in regards to what happens to the human, IE "21 Who knows if the spirit of people rises upward and the spirit of animals goes downward to the earth?" seem consistent with verses like Isaiah 38:18 "For the grave cannot praise you, death cannot sing your praise; those who go down to the pit cannot hope for your faithfulness." and Psalm 30:9 ""What is gained if I am silenced, if I go down to the pit? Will the dust praise you? Will it proclaim your faithfulness?" the focus in the OT seems to be on what they knew for certain, the lives they currently lived.
Something that throws a wrench in most translations being clear that Solomon had doubt about the existence of an afterlife before the eventual resurrection is the KJV translation which says "21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth? " and turns it into a rhetorical question expressing certainty in the destination of mankind before the resurrection. But knowing that Sheol contained both torments and paradise, and was presumably in the earth, wouldn't it make more sense for mankind to go "downward to the earth" like animals? And what does it mean for the spirit of an animal to go down into the earth? My first thought is that this might be talking about the spirit decaying with the body, again something like a soul sleep? So not positionally -minded like I first mentioned, but contrasting sleep/grave with existence. Whichever it was, it makes more sense to me for Solomon to have questioned whether humans and animals share the same fate in the grave before the resurrection rather than being certain about it.
We do know for sure that besides the comparison that humans and animals are both dust, people in the Old Testament knew that humans were unique being made in the image of God from genesis and humans ruling over animals. The purpose of the passage seems to be two-fold of encouraging humility and encouraging people to live godly lives now (and be thankful for the blessings God gives in this life)
If anyone could follow my stream of consciousness style exposition, some feedback would be lovely