Does the AC's treaty with Israel begin the Tribulation?

[Anastacia]

I've always learned that the Tribulation officially begins when the AC confirms a covenant with Israel. But how did we come to the conclusion that this treaty is the beginning of it?

"He will confirm a covenant with many for one seven. In the middle of the seven he will put an end to sacrifice and offering." Dan. 9:27

The One World Government is already in place before the AC (therefore likely before the Tribulation, maybe even before the rapture) as explained in Dan 7:7, 8; 23-25.
Then the AC ("the little horn") rises to power out of the 10 kings/regions.
He breaks the covenant halfway into the treaty... so that's how we determine that is the mid-point of the Tribulation, not just the midpoint of the covenant?

Suddenly I'm hung up on the detail of being certain the AC's treaty is the beginning of the Trib! Is it because it's the first time the AC is noted as being on the world stage?

2 Thes 2:3 says the day of the Lord (the 7 year Tribulation) won't happen until the AC is revealed... but how do we know that the treaty is the actual revealing of the AC/starting point of the Tribulation?
***Why aren't the Seal Judgements/4 horsemen of Rev. 6 the Tribulation's beginning?

Aaackkk!! I think I've thunk myself into circles and have lost sight of something!!

Thanks for any help with this!

 

[Chris]

Perhaps this will help?

https://www.raptureforums.com/end-times/end-times-timeline/

 

[Anastacia]

Thank you! I had looked at that but am wondering how we know the treaty is the start of the Tribulation. Lots of people have believed the rapture begins the Trib, or the Trib begins right when the Seals are opened, so I was wondering if I missed something that plainly indicates the Trib's starting point?

 

[Anastacia]

Another way of asking this question would be...
How do we answer someone who believes we are already in the Tribulation?

 

[athenasius]

it's a good question, I remember going into the math here: https://www.raptureforums.com/forum...ieve-it-will-be-grobal.171946/#post-843278096

Another way of asking this question would be...
How do we answer someone who believes we are already in the Tribulation?

Starting with the math we are given in the first Seals of Revelation.

Revelation chapter 6.

Read it with them. Go over verse 8 here:

8 I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.

and ask them if 1/4 of the earth's population is dying of sword, famine, plague and wild beasts. In 2020 we are at 7.8 Billion. Even the most fertile imagination cannot muster up almost 2 BILLION people dead or dying of sword, famine, plague and wild beasts. I went into it all in a previous thread so I'll try and find that. All of China is only 1.44 Billion rounded up. India is 1.4 also rounded up. Using this site here for the data https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/population-by-country/

Now they could argue that the wording just says power over-- and that doesn't mean dead people piled up like cordwood, but actually it does by looking at WHO is being allowed to do this. Death and Hades are allowed to kill -- they are given methods that they are allowed to use. If Death is permitted to kill people, it does. That is what Death does. Hades is the Greek term for the abode of the dead. Death claims a quarter of the population of the earth, 1 out of every four people die.

Usually these people like to claim we are in the first four seals by using things like wars, plagues famines etc. But looking at the math -- it's not adding up that we are there. But say for argument they think we are in the first half, all seven seals are active--

go onto verses 12 -14

12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14 The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

Now ask when this happened. Is Hawaii in place? Check. Yup. We aren't there yet in spite of the Blood Moons of John Hagee and others. You can point out that the effect of the great quake has the sun going dark and the moon going red-- this happens when enough dust gets kicked up but it happens BEFORE the stars fall to earth and the heavens recede like a scroll. These 2 together sound like we get hit with some kind of massive comet, meteor, asteroid type thing. Stars mean multiple or it would say star like later in the Trumpets. The way the atmosphere acts suggests that NASA simulations of a big one hitting earth are right as they theorize it would look like that.

but say they still aren't sure-- there might be a quake and eruptions in Hawaii that altered the GPS followed by a meteor shower and an eclipse or something so look at this

15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”

When did everyone do that??????

Hopefully that will help them figure out that nope, we aren't there yet.

 

[Anastacia]

it's a good question, I remember going into the math here: https://www.raptureforums.com/forum...ieve-it-will-be-grobal.171946/#post-843278096

Starting with the math we are given in the first Seals of Revelation.

Revelation chapter 6.

Read it with them. Go over verse 8 here:

8 I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.

and ask them if 1/4 of the earth's population is dying of sword, famine, plague and wild beasts. In 2020 we are at 7.8 Billion. Even the most fertile imagination cannot muster up almost 2 BILLION people dead or dying of sword, famine, plague and wild beasts. I went into it all in a previous thread so I'll try and find that. All of China is only 1.44 Billion rounded up. India is 1.4 also rounded up. Using this site here for the data https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/population-by-country/

Now they could argue that the wording just says power over-- and that doesn't mean dead people piled up like cordwood, but actually it does by looking at WHO is being allowed to do this. Death and Hades are allowed to kill -- they are given methods that they are allowed to use. If Death is permitted to kill people, it does. That is what Death does. Hades is the Greek term for the abode of the dead. Death claims a quarter of the population of the earth, 1 out of every four people die.

Usually these people like to claim we are in the first four seals by using things like wars, plagues famines etc. But looking at the math -- it's not adding up that we are there. But say for argument they think we are in the first half, all seven seals are active--

go onto verses 12 -14

12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14 The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

Now ask when this happened. Is Hawaii in place? Check. Yup. We aren't there yet in spite of the Blood Moons of John Hagee and others. You can point out that the effect of the great quake has the sun going dark and the moon going red-- this happens when enough dust gets kicked up but it happens BEFORE the stars fall to earth and the heavens recede like a scroll. These 2 together sound like we get hit with some kind of massive comet, meteor, asteroid type thing. Stars mean multiple or it would say star like later in the Trumpets. The way the atmosphere acts suggests that NASA simulations of a big one hitting earth are right as they theorize it would look like that.

but say they still aren't sure-- there might be a quake and eruptions in Hawaii that altered the GPS followed by a meteor shower and an eclipse or something so look at this

15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”

When did everyone do that??????

Hopefully that will help them figure out that nope, we aren't there yet.

Such good points about comparing the amount of deaths from the Seals to China's and India's populations! That's an eye-opener!
And you made me chuckle to check that Hawaii is still in place!

In regards to telling people they "can know the Tribulation has begun when they see such and such"-- is the AC's treaty with Israel not the definite beginning, and it is more speculative based on all the prophetic pieces?
Perhaps the treaty is mostly the event which clearly identifies the AC?

Thank you for all the input, Chris and Marjory!

 

[athenasius]

is the AC's treaty with Israel not the definite beginning, and it is more speculative based on all the prophetic pieces?

Perhaps the treaty is mostly the event which clearly identifies the AC?

Both.
Is it the definite beginning? YES but not speculative at all, it is a certainty. Based on Daniel 9:vs 26- 27 and 2 Thess 2:1-5

The Treaty IS the event that the Tribulation believers have as the definite start of the last 7years on God's stop watch as outlined by the angel who shows this timeline to Daniel. We get a time key given here and also over in Daniel 12.

Daniel 9 says this: v 25 included for context. (NIV)
25 “Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’ It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. 26 After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. 27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.”

Jewish understanding of time includes weeks of years, not just weeks of days.

Daniels time line has 7 weeks plus 62 weeks that add up to 490 years till the appearing of the Messiah. That time clock stops at the Crucifixion, and the angel picks it up by turning to the subject of the ruler to come. He points out that the people of the ruler to come (which was the Roman army in 70 AD) would destroy the city and the "sanctuary" -- which means the Temple. War and desolations are decreed till the end-- this means the sufferings of the Jews in the diaspora and even as they came back into their land.

The time clock or stop watch starts ticking again at verse 27 where the angel says this "ruler to come" (the person introduced in the last part of v 26) the Antichrist or AC for short appears on the scene.

We know for sure he is the AC because he is the one who confirms a covenant with the many for ONE MORE 7 or in other words the final missing 7 years of the 70 weeks of years.

This is extremely specific. Going into this passage using Strongs concordance the wording suggests that this is a covenant that is already kicking around, but the AC makes it stronger, better in some way.

AND ANOTHER KEY idea of time --- the prophetic year is 360 days long. It's a long and interesting explanation of why that works that way but I am wrenching myself away from a very interesting rabbit trail here. Plus I'm tired and that is LOADS of typing. Books have been written that don't fully cover the joys of THAT rabbit trail.

So lets look at a month, 30 days, a year is 360 and 42 months is 1260 days or as the Bible terms it "a time, times and half a time which is another way of saying 3 and a 1/2 years. That is halfway thru the 7 years.

Fast Forward to Daniel 12 Verse 1 gives us an overview of the Tribulation, and it's purpose for DANIELS people the JEWS.

“At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 Those who are wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever. 4 But you, Daniel, roll up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge.”

5 Then I, Daniel, looked, and there before me stood two others, one on this bank of the river and one on the opposite bank. 6 One of them said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, “How long will it be before these astonishing things are fulfilled?”

7 The man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, lifted his right hand and his left hand toward heaven, and I heard him swear by him who lives forever, saying, “It will be for a time, times and half a time. When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed.”

8 I heard, but I did not understand. So I asked, “My lord, what will the outcome of all this be?”

9 He replied, “Go your way, Daniel, because the words are rolled up and sealed until the time of the end. 10 Many will be purified, made spotless and refined, but the wicked will continue to be wicked. None of the wicked will understand, but those who are wise will understand.

11 “From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. 12 Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days.

13 “As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance.”

Verse 7 is 1260 days, 42 months or 3.5 years. The power of the holy people (the Jews) will be broken in a period of time (last half of the Trib) that sees "all these things completed." So the PURPOSE of the Tribulation is completed 1260 days after the midpoint (the abomination of desolation -AOD for short) and that occurs in or around the time frame given in Revelation for the 2 Witnesses who prophesy for 1260 days Rev 11:3. This fits with the power of the holy people being broken-- their Temple is desecrated, the AC is not their friend and those who know the scriptures RUN to Petra for safety. Rev 12:6 &14 where God protects and nourishes them for 1260 days.

Verse 11 is 1,290 days (not 1260)from the abomination of desolation till the end, the answer to Daniels fulfillment question in v 5. (another lovely distraction is the 1335 which is another interesting rabbit trail we won't cover tonight. ) That is ONE MONTH LONGER than the halfway point. Just notice it, and the 1335 but keep focusing on the 1260 days or 3.5 years. it's another rabbit trail. But that is the angel answering what the OUTCOME of the Tribulation is.

ALL of these verses above in Revelation are talking 1260 days, 42 months or 3.5 years of 360 days which are talking about that very specific time clock ticking down the days of the Tribulation.

Now I am quite sure that those days will be of SUPREME importance to the Saints of the Trib, both the Jewish believers and the Gentile believers. This is why we cannot say nonsense like the Tribulation Saints can't know the day or hour.

It is you and I of the Church who are awaiting the Rapture that can't know the day or the hour.

The Trib Saints will be hanging on by a thread of hope in these passages. Counting down the days.

First half, the clock starts ticking with the signing of the covenant. The "many" refers to the Jewish nation. It's interesting that Daniel and the angel use the word MANY to describe the Jews. The covenant isn't between the AC and the king of the Jews. The covenant is between the AC (prince to come) and the MANY which speaks of a representative democracy in which "the many" rule just as it is in Israel. In fact, the many describes the delicate balance of a coalition type govt, where all decisions are made in collaboration with the agreement of a majority of the Members of the Knesset or else the govt FALLS!!!! (so many rabbit trails so little time!)

The mid point of the Trib in Rev 11:3 is exciting because it gives that same 1260 days for the 2 Witnesses. They prophesy, and can't be stopped till the 1260th day arrives and they are killed. 3-1/2 years they prophesy. Then they are killed and 3-1/2 DAYS they are dead (vs 9 & 11) before their visible resurrection. When God repeats a number like this one it's important-- the number is very important.

In Rev 12:13-17 that again shows us this midpoint where the devil falls out of heaven to earth, empowers the beast and makes war on the Jews v 13 and the Gentile believers v 17.

Another midpoint is described over in Rev 13:5-- this is the time limit given for the last half of the Tribulation period. The devil, the dragon empowers the Beast (the AC) at the midpoint. And it is this midpoint where we see he is given the ability to make war with the saints verse 7 (remember many of these are the Jews now, since the purpose of the Tribulation is the Salvation of the Jewish Nation to quote a recent preacher).

This is the chapter where the MARK emerges and it is where the image of the Beast is to be worshipped. It is at THIS point the Bible gives the 666 clue.

WHAT COMES BEFORE THE AC CAN SHOW UP? Better to say WHAT RESTRAINS THE AC FROM SHOWING UP?

Now lets back up to 2 Thess 2:1-12 and the context is Paul writing to reassure the Thessalonians about the stuff he originally taught them, because some devilish fake letter supposed to be from Paul had been circulating and it was during the time of persecutions, and the people were terrified they had somehow missed the Rapture.

1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

The thing to notice here is that we are out of here before the man of sin can be revealed. The action of the HOLY SPIRIT working thru the Church as the Body of Christ here on earth is the Restrainer. This is the comfort Paul gives.

His logic is the man of sin hasn't been revealed. That revealing is the bit in Daniel, the covenant. That is when the people in the Tribulation can look back to as the starter pistol.

It is NOT the Rapture that starts the Trib.

The Rapture removes the Restrainer from the world. The Holy Spirit will still be present, but His role as Restrainer is gone.

It is the RESTRAINER who has been stopping the AC from coming forward. Down thru the centuries and millennia, there have always been world dictator wannabes, and God always stops them.

Till AFTER we go.

That allows the AC to finally show up and sign off the covenant that he improves in some way with the MANY (the Knesset)

And notice Paul gives us that extra information that this AC sits in the Temple calling himself God-- a definite clue to the Abomination of Desolation that the angel and Daniel were talking about.

So there you go, yes it's very much a specified event that kicks off the Trib, it's the AC signing the covenant with Israel represented as the many (the Knesset, not a single king or leader but one who speaks for the many)

But that CANNOT happen till the Rapture takes place because the Restrainer goes with us. No more restraint of evil and the AC when we leave. So the Rapture has to come before the AC shows up, and the Tribulation can't start till the AC signs on the dotted line.

HTH and I'm off to bed!

If I mucked anything up badly, I'll come back in another day and write another book on the subject

 

[athenasius]

Oh and Daniel 7: 25

23 “He gave me this explanation: ‘The fourth beast is a fourth kingdom that will appear on earth. It will be different from all the other kingdoms and will devour the whole earth, trampling it down and crushing it. 24 The ten horns are ten kings who will come from this kingdom. After them another king will arise, different from the earlier ones; he will subdue three kings. 25 He will speak against the Most High and oppress his holy people and try to change the set times and the laws. The holy people will be delivered into his hands for a time, times and half a time.

The order of events goes like this.
Rome, the 4rth beast appears (the people of the Prince -AC- to come) They never really leave-- the power centre for Rome and it's descendants shifts westward after the fall of Constantinople just before the Renaissance and Reformation. It traces down to today. Rome falls in one part, survives in another, that falls but then shifts to Europe, Britain and later the Americas.

10 kings arise out of that Roman Empire -- those could be 10 economic zones in a world govt or more literally 10 literal leaders of 10 separate countries that were part of the ancient Roman Empire. That's why looking at the nations that used to be part of ancient Rome is important from a prophecy watching point of view.

after them

The AC rises up to power and he subdues 3 of the kings.
At some point possibly on his rise to power he signs the covenant with the nation of Israel that kicks off the 7 year countdown
In the LAST HALF OF THE 7 years of the Tribulation the AC is indwelt by Satan and goes after the Jews and the Gentile Christians. That is the meaning of the holy people being delivered into his hands for the last half.

This fits perfectly with the other passages of Daniel as well as Revelation in the bits I quote above.

So again
The Rapture doesn't begin the Tribulation but it allows the AC to finally show up in public

The signing of the covenant between the AC and the "many" or the Knesset where the many lead the nation. THAT is what kicks off the Tribulation

2 Thess 2 makes it crystal clear that we don't get to see the AC because he can't show up till we are out of here.

but once we are gone and the Holy Spirit working thru the Church is no longer restraining-- The AC and the Tribulation can show up and get going.

 

[seated with Christ]

The AC will stop the sacrifice's, so there wouldn't be any sacrifice without the Third Temple, so the AC won't come on the scene until the Temple is build.

 

[Anastacia]

Well, now I know where my trouble is in definitively pinpointing the start of the Tribulation: Math!!!

I've always learned it this way but have a hard time breaking it down to explain it to others, and even myself, because it is essentially a math story problem!

I've learned the significance of the dates for the decree to rebuild Jerusalem in 445 BC (Neh. 2:5), Jesus riding into Jerusalem on the donkey (Zec. 9:9), and how the timeline is set from those dates and prophecies, but I wasnt confident if Dan. 9:27 mentioning the breaking of the treaty midway through the agreement also meant the middle of the Trib. And yikes, I could never explain it to anyone the way you guys can because I can *hardly* grasp it myself!
...so that means I have to take it mostly by faith!!

I wholeheartedly appreciate the explanations. Sometimes it's good to go back to basics and affirm why I believe what I believe.

 

[Accepted]

Both.
Is it the definite beginning? YES but not speculative at all, it is a certainty. Based on Daniel 9:vs 26- 27 and 2 Thess 2:1-5

The Treaty IS the event that the Tribulation believers have as the definite start of the last 7years on God's stop watch as outlined by the angel who shows this timeline to Daniel. We get a time key given here and also over in Daniel 12.

Daniel 9 says this: v 25 included for context. (NIV)
25 “Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’ It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. 26 After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. 27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.”

Jewish understanding of time includes weeks of years, not just weeks of days.

Daniels time line has 7 weeks plus 62 weeks that add up to 490 years till the appearing of the Messiah. That time clock stops at the Crucifixion, and the angel picks it up by turning to the subject of the ruler to come. He points out that the people of the ruler to come (which was the Roman army in 70 AD) would destroy the city and the "sanctuary" -- which means the Temple. War and desolations are decreed till the end-- this means the sufferings of the Jews in the diaspora and even as they came back into their land.

The time clock or stop watch starts ticking again at verse 27 where the angel says this "ruler to come" (the person introduced in the last part of v 26) the Antichrist or AC for short appears on the scene.

We know for sure he is the AC because he is the one who confirms a covenant with the many for ONE MORE 7 or in other words the final missing 7 years of the 70 weeks of years.

This is extremely specific. Going into this passage using Strongs concordance the wording suggests that this is a covenant that is already kicking around, but the AC makes it stronger, better in some way.

AND ANOTHER KEY idea of time --- the prophetic year is 360 days long. It's a long and interesting explanation of why that works that way but I am wrenching myself away from a very interesting rabbit trail here. Plus I'm tired and that is LOADS of typing. Books have been written that don't fully cover the joys of THAT rabbit trail.

So lets look at a month, 30 days, a year is 360 and 42 months is 1260 days or as the Bible terms it "a time, times and half a time which is another way of saying 3 and a 1/2 years. That is halfway thru the 7 years.

Fast Forward to Daniel 12 Verse 1 gives us an overview of the Tribulation, and it's purpose for DANIELS people the JEWS.

“At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 Those who are wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever. 4 But you, Daniel, roll up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge.”

5 Then I, Daniel, looked, and there before me stood two others, one on this bank of the river and one on the opposite bank. 6 One of them said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, “How long will it be before these astonishing things are fulfilled?”

7 The man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, lifted his right hand and his left hand toward heaven, and I heard him swear by him who lives forever, saying, “It will be for a time, times and half a time. When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed.”

8 I heard, but I did not understand. So I asked, “My lord, what will the outcome of all this be?”

9 He replied, “Go your way, Daniel, because the words are rolled up and sealed until the time of the end. 10 Many will be purified, made spotless and refined, but the wicked will continue to be wicked. None of the wicked will understand, but those who are wise will understand.

11 “From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. 12 Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days.

13 “As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance.”

Verse 7 is 1260 days, 42 months or 3.5 years. The power of the holy people (the Jews) will be broken in a period of time (last half of the Trib) that sees "all these things completed." So the PURPOSE of the Tribulation is completed 1260 days after the midpoint (the abomination of desolation -AOD for short) and that occurs in or around the time frame given in Revelation for the 2 Witnesses who prophesy for 1260 days Rev 11:3. This fits with the power of the holy people being broken-- their Temple is desecrated, the AC is not their friend and those who know the scriptures RUN to Petra for safety. Rev 12:6 &14 where God protects and nourishes them for 1260 days.

Verse 11 is 1,290 days (not 1260)from the abomination of desolation till the end, the answer to Daniels fulfillment question in v 5. (another lovely distraction is the 1335 which is another interesting rabbit trail we won't cover tonight. ) That is ONE MONTH LONGER than the halfway point. Just notice it, and the 1335 but keep focusing on the 1260 days or 3.5 years. it's another rabbit trail. But that is the angel answering what the OUTCOME of the Tribulation is.

ALL of these verses above in Revelation are talking 1260 days, 42 months or 3.5 years of 360 days which are talking about that very specific time clock ticking down the days of the Tribulation.

Now I am quite sure that those days will be of SUPREME importance to the Saints of the Trib, both the Jewish believers and the Gentile believers. This is why we cannot say nonsense like the Tribulation Saints can't know the day or hour.

It is you and I of the Church who are awaiting the Rapture that can't know the day or the hour.

The Trib Saints will be hanging on by a thread of hope in these passages. Counting down the days.

First half, the clock starts ticking with the signing of the covenant. The "many" refers to the Jewish nation. It's interesting that Daniel and the angel use the word MANY to describe the Jews. The covenant isn't between the AC and the king of the Jews. The covenant is between the AC (prince to come) and the MANY which speaks of a representative democracy in which "the many" rule just as it is in Israel. In fact, the many describes the delicate balance of a coalition type govt, where all decisions are made in collaboration with the agreement of a majority of the Members of the Knesset or else the govt FALLS!!!! (so many rabbit trails so little time!)

The mid point of the Trib in Rev 11:3 is exciting because it gives that same 1260 days for the 2 Witnesses. They prophesy, and can't be stopped till the 1260th day arrives and they are killed. 3-1/2 years they prophesy. Then they are killed and 3-1/2 DAYS they are dead (vs 9 & 11) before their visible resurrection. When God repeats a number like this one it's important-- the number is very important.

In Rev 12:13-17 that again shows us this midpoint where the devil falls out of heaven to earth, empowers the beast and makes war on the Jews v 13 and the Gentile believers v 17.

Another midpoint is described over in Rev 13:5-- this is the time limit given for the last half of the Tribulation period. The devil, the dragon empowers the Beast (the AC) at the midpoint. And it is this midpoint where we see he is given the ability to make war with the saints verse 7 (remember many of these are the Jews now, since the purpose of the Tribulation is the Salvation of the Jewish Nation to quote a recent preacher).

This is the chapter where the MARK emerges and it is where the image of the Beast is to be worshipped. It is at THIS point the Bible gives the 666 clue.

WHAT COMES BEFORE THE AC CAN SHOW UP? Better to say WHAT RESTRAINS THE AC FROM SHOWING UP?

Now lets back up to 2 Thess 2:1-12 and the context is Paul writing to reassure the Thessalonians about the stuff he originally taught them, because some devilish fake letter supposed to be from Paul had been circulating and it was during the time of persecutions, and the people were terrified they had somehow missed the Rapture.

1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

The thing to notice here is that we are out of here before the man of sin can be revealed. The action of the HOLY SPIRIT working thru the Church as the Body of Christ here on earth is the Restrainer. This is the comfort Paul gives.

His logic is the man of sin hasn't been revealed. That revealing is the bit in Daniel, the covenant. That is when the people in the Tribulation can look back to as the starter pistol.

It is NOT the Rapture that starts the Trib.

The Rapture removes the Restrainer from the world. The Holy Spirit will still be present, but His role as Restrainer is gone.

It is the RESTRAINER who has been stopping the AC from coming forward. Down thru the centuries and millennia, there have always been world dictator wannabes, and God always stops them.

Till AFTER we go.

That allows the AC to finally show up and sign off the covenant that he improves in some way with the MANY (the Knesset)

And notice Paul gives us that extra information that this AC sits in the Temple calling himself God-- a definite clue to the Abomination of Desolation that the angel and Daniel were talking about.

So there you go, yes it's very much a specified event that kicks off the Trib, it's the AC signing the covenant with Israel represented as the many (the Knesset, not a single king or leader but one who speaks for the many)

But that CANNOT happen till the Rapture takes place because the Restrainer goes with us. No more restraint of evil and the AC when we leave. So the Rapture has to come before the AC shows up, and the Tribulation can't start till the AC signs on the dotted line.

HTH and I'm off to bed!

If I mucked anything up badly, I'll come back in another day and write another book on the subject

Margery, this was a very edifying analysis of the Scriptures for me. Thank you!!

 

[katt]

Look at it like this...can you and yours still go out for your favorite dinner..dancing and a movie?...well..you will be now that the Dems are opening things up...in the real Tribulation..with mountains falling into the seas..sealife dying all over the place..earthquakes that affect the whole world...great big giant rocks falling out of the sky..days of darkness...sweltering heat..sores..bites from scorpions..fires everywhere and many other things..on top of all that..bad guys trying to kill the good guys all over the planet...there is no time for a leisurely night out with ones spouse..

 

[Chris]

Thank you! I had looked at that but am wondering how we know the treaty is the start of the Tribulation. Lots of people have believed the rapture begins the Trib, or the Trib begins right when the Seals are opened, so I was wondering if I missed something that plainly indicates the Trib's starting point?

The confirming of the covenant for 7 years start the Tribulation period.

The rapture of the church occurs BEFORE the 7 year Tribulation period.

 

[Jan51]

It seems to me that the AC could be visible and active on the world stage while we are still here, as someone we suspect could be him, but it won't be known for certain until after we are gone. When he signs the seven-year covenant, he will be revealed to be the AC--that's what I think "revealed" means: he is officially "outed." But I don't see where the Bible forbids him from being a public person and a likely person before the moment of "revealing." I could be wrong, lol.

 

[seated with Christ]

Thy Salvation is nearer than when you believe.

 

[seated with Christ]

The Socialist Republic of America will have to toe the line for King Jesus or he will withhold rain.

 

[Chet]

whoa, lots of reading, I will admit I didn't read all of it, however...... since there will be peace for 3.5 years..... one could argue that the tribulation doesn't begin until half way through the 7 year peace treaty........idk

 

[katt]

whoa, lots of reading, I will admit I didn't read all of it, however...... since there will be peace for 3.5 years..... one could argue that the tribulation doesn't begin until half way through the 7 year peace treaty........idk

The first 3 1/2 years are referred to as The Tribulation..the last 3 1/2 are referred to as The Great Tribulation..worse than man has ever seen or ever will see and if those days were not shortened there would be no life left on earth..but for the elites sake..those days will be shortened..

 

[katt]

The Socialist Republic of America will have to toe the line for King Jesus or he will withhold rain.

America as we know it may not exist in those days...Yellowstone's Super Volcano is long past due to go off...

 

[Anastacia]

whoa, lots of reading, I will admit I didn't read all of it, however...... since there will be peace for 3.5 years..... one could argue that the tribulation doesn't begin until half way through the 7 year peace treaty........idk

I think the "peace" is referring to Israel's relationships with her neighbors (as a result of the treaty the AC brokers). And it's a false peace. But considering the 1st 4 Seals, I don't think it looks like there will be peaceful life anywhere in the world.