Does God choose our leaders?

Andy C

Reborn to fly
God is sovereign over everything that happens, and He also gives us free will--the ability to make choices. The idea that He chooses our leaders regardless of our choices smacks of Calvinism. God knows who will be saved and the Bible says those who are saved are those who are chosen, but He does not save people who do not choose Him, nor does He tell anyone who chooses Him, "sorry, you're not one I chose." God's Big Plan will happen regardless of who we vote for, or don't vote for. Nothing we can do can thwart His will, yet we have complete freedom to make choices--and to vote.
I don't see the connection between the possibility of Him choosing our leaders and Calvinism. I'm about as anti-calvinism as one could be, but I'm having troubles understanding your point?
 

ragamuffin

Well-Known Member
I believe in this Church Age of Grace we are completely free to choose. Some Calvinists believe God is fully controlling over everything "good" and "bad" in this world... for example, some even think that God orchestrated the Holocaust for "His Glory" (i.e. John Piper). God has turned this world over to Satan as it's ruler in this day and age we live in (2 Cor 4:4, Eph 2:2, John 12:31). It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that the wheels are wobbling and ready to come off. The Bible also tells us the end of this story (spoiler alert... God Wins)!

One of the better analogies I've heard lately is by Leighton Flowers where he uses the example of God playing a game of chess at the park. The Calvinist takes the view that God plays both sides of the chess board in order to guarantee the outcome (i.e. where He always wins). Whereas this real chess game we're playing in today is one in that no matter who steps up to play against God in this game of chess, God stays on His side of the chess board, and HE always wins... because He is that Good... He can beat anyone and everyone head-to-head fair-and-square, and does ***NOT*** need to manipulate the other side in order to guarantee His victory. He doesn't need to play both sides of the game to control the outcome. Regardless of which move an opponent makes, God can counter those moves and leverage all to His Glory regardless. God has certainly appointed people in the past (i.e. the Apostle Paul for example), however that is the exception and not the normative. It's very interesting to me where people can take a single historical account in Scripture and make it "doctrine" for all ages. Many of our church denominations are founded on those types of "single" verses within Scripture. All of Scripture is to be understood as a whole. We are visitors in a foreign land... this world is not our Home. The inmates are running the asylum... we can't blame or credit God for who they "elect" to lead. We can choose to stand for God and fight the good fight (1 Tim 6:12), or sit back and watch... it's completely our free choice! God knows the outcome of our collective choice because He exists outside of Time... He sees what "we" collectively in this world have chosen. He did not choose our negative leaders... because that is not His nature... but, He is indeed sovereign... and regardless of who we choose... He will continue to play this chess game from His side of the board... and in His perfect time, He Wins this game... triumphantly!

We don't get the leaders we deserve... we get the leaders we choose. Unfortunately, the majority of "we" in this world are non-Christian. We're out-numbered. But that's where God always excels in Scripture... when the odds are hands down against His victory... you know those stories and their outcomes... time after time... example after example... "they" think they're winning... but they don't know or see the outcome and end of the game... we do! We just don't know when! Maranatha!
 

Andy C

Reborn to fly
I believe in this Church Age of Grace we are completely free to choose. Some Calvinists believe God is fully controlling over everything "good" and "bad" in this world... for example, some even think that God orchestrated the Holocaust for "His Glory" (i.e. John Piper). God has turned this world over to Satan as it's ruler in this day and age we live in (2 Cor 4:4, Eph 2:2, John 12:31). It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that the wheels are wobbling and ready to come off. The Bible also tells us the end of this story (spoiler alert... God Wins)!

One of the better analogies I've heard lately is by Leighton Flowers where he uses the example of God playing a game of chess at the park. The Calvinist takes the view that God plays both sides of the chess board in order to guarantee the outcome (i.e. where He always wins). Whereas this real chess game we're playing in today is one in that no matter who steps up to play against God in this game of chess, God stays on His side of the chess board, and HE always wins... because He is that Good... He can beat anyone and everyone head-to-head fair-and-square, and does ***NOT*** need to manipulate the other side in order to guarantee His victory. He doesn't need to play both sides of the game to control the outcome. Regardless of which move an opponent makes, God can counter those moves and leverage all to His Glory regardless. God has certainly appointed people in the past (i.e. the Apostle Paul for example), however that is the exception and not the normative. It's very interesting to me where people can take a single historical account in Scripture and make it "doctrine" for all ages. Many of our church denominations are founded on those types of "single" verses within Scripture. All of Scripture is to be understood as a whole. We are visitors in a foreign land... this world is not our Home. The inmates are running the asylum... we can't blame or credit God for who they "elect" to lead. We can choose to stand for God and fight the good fight (1 Tim 6:12), or sit back and watch... it's completely our free choice! God knows the outcome of our collective choice because He exists outside of Time... He sees what "we" collectively in this world have chosen. He did not choose our negative leaders... because that is not His nature... but, He is indeed sovereign... and regardless of who we choose... He will continue to play this chess game from His side of the board... and in His perfect time, He Wins this game... triumphantly!

We don't get the leaders we deserve... we get the leaders we choose. Unfortunately, the majority of "we" in this world are non-Christian. We're out-numbered. But that's where God always excels in Scripture... when the odds are hands down against His victory... you know those stories and their outcomes... time after time... example after example... "they" think they're winning... but they don't know or see the outcome and end of the game... we do! We just don't know when! Maranatha!
Excellent answer, and you made an excellent case for we get what we deserve. Satan is the ruler of this world. Thank God we know who wins for eternity.
 

Hol

Worships Him
Good summary of what Calvanism teaches ragamuffin. It has an extremely low view of how Holy and free God's love is and how grace in Jesus allows us to choose.

Yesterday my pastor taught from Matthew 22, about the tax question, where we render to Cesaer what we owe. That shows we have responsibility here to civil authorities.

But to hear my pastor go beyond that to help us understand we must render to God that which is His, was stunning. We are made in His image, and I am a slow learner, but beginning to get it. He patiently teaches me little by little, and I willingly want to repent simply to love Jesus as He so richly deserves.

We don't have to lean on our own understanding. It seems the TULIP method desperately tries to control thinking & promote man's works; and could provide an easy escape from uncomfortable choices (like voting). That's what I liked about Jan's post. I'm uncertain, and her comment reminded me that though I dislike this choice of candidates I would be foolish to assume God is going to do whatever pleases Him in placing one in the WH. Yet I rest assured that His pleasure will be the final outcome.

It sure helps me pray more & see how little I understand & that I need His Word to fill my mind.
 

Andy C

Reborn to fly
I believe in this Church Age of Grace we are completely free to choose. Some Calvinists believe God is fully controlling over everything "good" and "bad" in this world... for example, some even think that God orchestrated the Holocaust for "His Glory" (i.e. John Piper). God has turned this world over to Satan as it's ruler in this day and age we live in (2 Cor 4:4, Eph 2:2, John 12:31). It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that the wheels are wobbling and ready to come off. The Bible also tells us the end of this story (spoiler alert... God Wins)!

One of the better analogies I've heard lately is by Leighton Flowers where he uses the example of God playing a game of chess at the park. The Calvinist takes the view that God plays both sides of the chess board in order to guarantee the outcome (i.e. where He always wins). Whereas this real chess game we're playing in today is one in that no matter who steps up to play against God in this game of chess, God stays on His side of the chess board, and HE always wins... because He is that Good... He can beat anyone and everyone head-to-head fair-and-square, and does ***NOT*** need to manipulate the other side in order to guarantee His victory. He doesn't need to play both sides of the game to control the outcome. Regardless of which move an opponent makes, God can counter those moves and leverage all to His Glory regardless. God has certainly appointed people in the past (i.e. the Apostle Paul for example), however that is the exception and not the normative. It's very interesting to me where people can take a single historical account in Scripture and make it "doctrine" for all ages. Many of our church denominations are founded on those types of "single" verses within Scripture. All of Scripture is to be understood as a whole. We are visitors in a foreign land... this world is not our Home. The inmates are running the asylum... we can't blame or credit God for who they "elect" to lead. We can choose to stand for God and fight the good fight (1 Tim 6:12), or sit back and watch... it's completely our free choice! God knows the outcome of our collective choice because He exists outside of Time... He sees what "we" collectively in this world have chosen. He did not choose our negative leaders... because that is not His nature... but, He is indeed sovereign... and regardless of who we choose... He will continue to play this chess game from His side of the board... and in His perfect time, He Wins this game... triumphantly!

We don't get the leaders we deserve... we get the leaders we choose. Unfortunately, the majority of "we" in this world are non-Christian. We're out-numbered. But that's where God always excels in Scripture... when the odds are hands down against His victory... you know those stories and their outcomes... time after time... example after example... "they" think they're winning... but they don't know or see the outcome and end of the game... we do! We just don't know when! Maranatha!
I forgot to add to my previous post "thanks" for tying in the connection to Calvinism.
 

Jan51

Well-Known Member
The Calvinist view leads to fatalism/determinism: i.e., since it doesn't matter what we do (God has determined what will happen and He will make it happen), then why bother to do anything? But that is not what the Bible teaches. We are to do our part, and, in faith, leave the outcome to Him.
 

Hol

Worships Him
The Calvinist view leads to fatalism/determinism: i.e., since it doesn't matter what we do (God has determined what will happen and He will make it happen), then why bother to do anything? But that is not what the Bible teaches. We are to do our part, and, in faith, leave the outcome to Him.
:smile
 

Andy C

Reborn to fly
I wanted to bump this again to see if anyone has anything to add. Im still not positive that God elects all leaders, or does He at times, appoint for His will whoever He desires?
 

Kaatje

Listening for that trumpet sound
I believe God appoints leaders, because scripture says so. (Rom. 13)
But that doesn’t mean it is not our right to vote when and where we can,
and our duty to vote for those that uphold the commandments of our Lord.

When all is said and done, our Lord Jesus has returned and we will be in Heaven,
we will discover that all our (and everbodies) choices, ultimately have fitted in Gods plan.

But those two things, Gods omniscience, and our choices, are not contradictory, but complementory.
It is a paradox and I don’t quite understand how that works precisely, but someday I will.
 

Saved and Waiting

Well-Known Member
God does know the end from the beginning and what He has determined will happen will happen. Yet we are also told that we are to continually pray and petition Him. I think our prayers can delay or speed up what He knows will happen. We are told that our days are numbered and then we find that Ezekiel's life on earth was extended 15 years. He tells the Jews to flee to where I believe is Petra when the anti-Christ is seeking to destroy them. He tells them to pray it's not on the Sabbath (they could only travel so far on the Sabbath) or in the winter. I believe they will pray to God and when they flee, it won't be on the Sabbath or in their winter which can be treacherous at times. He tells that the prayers of we saints changes things....what things? He already knows if the Democrats or the Republicans will control both the Senate and the House. He already knows the outcome...but yet He tells us to pray about everything. I believe we can't change the outcome...but our prayers can change the timing of those outcomes. I am praying that as long as we, Christ's Bride, are still on Earth, He will not allow the Democrats to regain the House and Senate. That is one of the desires of my heart and He tells me to pray to Him for those desires. I will vote and continue to pray no matter what the results of this election end up being. Blessings to all!
 

chaser

Just a twinkling from home!
When Christians pray for this country and go to the polls and vote in mass(which does not happen every time) more liberals are voted out along with there leftist agenda. When we do not vote liberals get in and the country's changes are not most desirable and down right slide to darkness. If the Dems lose big this time around, I look for them to push for a younger voting age(16?) and to use cell phones to vote, making it easier for everyone, which opens the door for more manipulation(internet) and more votes for the left(this statement could/should be another thread) I know God is in control and it seems when we do not turn out to vote, the left wins and their agenda advances and it's hard to overturn those policies, if ever. I vote , I hate politics, I try to vote what/who by what that person stands for(their fruit) I do not care of you are D or R or I after you name. You want abortion(I vote against anyone promoting abortion ), open borders, higher taxes, lenient drug laws, light prison sentences and UN in charge of world affairs, you not get my vote. I only voted Trump because he said he changed his mind on abortion. I think we were given Obama to change course in this country. Yes he took us down a dark road but since 2010 the left has been losing ground, hoping this cycle they lose more ground and it will happen if God's people show up. What gives me a head scratch moment is when some voters of all denominations including some of the Jewish population vote Dem.? Another reason I hope the Rapture is soon, these election cycles and advertisements wear me out, it's about non stop anymore.
 

athenasius

Well-Known Member
Having done all, stand as Paul says.

We do what we are supposed to do, then rest in God to do His good will and pleasure. He built us to work for our daily bread, even though we are to look to Him for that supply and we do. Politics is no different. We do have a part to play in it all, and we should prayerfully act to the best of our knowledge and understanding, then relay as always on Him for the outcome.
 

Andy C

Reborn to fly
Even after posting this 3 years ago, Im still not sure if He appoints ALL leaders, or using those the people voted in for His Will to be completed.
 

antitox

Well-Known Member
He knows every little thing that's going to happen, how it will happen and with who. Consider Daniel 11 when Gabriel fought to get into Persia and tell Daniel what was to take place. In that chapter God shows Daniel from Alexander the Great onward until Antiochus IV everything that would take place; from wars, drama, usurpers, etc. and those events. It is mind-boggling. He told Daniel about Berenice, Cleopatra, the Seleucids, Ptolemy and who would attack who. It all has a purpose in the events of the earth to bring about biblical fulfillment. He is absolutely in control of everything. Prov 16 states that "He made even the wicked for the day of trouble." I never want to put Him in a box, it just doesn't fit.
 

antitox

Well-Known Member
I agree. However, even though He knows what will happen, does that then mean He made it happen? He knew long before I was born that I would eventually believe in Him as my Savior, but He did not make that happen - I chose.
The way I understand it, man's choice is involved, but it is not ultimate. Even though man chooses, God still accomplishes the counsel of His will through it all. Even though it's difficult to see God's movement in the affairs of man, He is still involved in the path it takes. That's why I cited Daniel 11 because He described every event as it was going to happen before it ever took place. That blows my mind.
 
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