Does Ephesians help to understand things?

NCHPD6

New Member
Wow Kristine! It appears that you have started a little bit of a storm here....lol!
The way I take it is simply this:
If one believes in the Lord Jesus Christ as his or her savior and that HE conquered death by being resurrected 3 days later by the Father. Will have eternal salvation. All of us fall short of the glory of GOD every day that we live on this sin filled planet. If we have Christ in us, then the Holy Spirit is in us as well. If you sin, you sin.....but do not do it purposefully. Allow the Holy Spirit to guide you every day and ask for forgiveness often. Give glory and praise to GOD as much as you can. Why? Because HE saved your life, in more ways than one. The moment you placed your faith in Christ, is the same moment your name was written in The Book Of Life, and it can never be erased! We are to live our life for HIM! If we are in HIM and HE in us, then we will live life for HIM and we will be in Heaven, rejoicing, praising and happy! We were sanctified by the sacrifice and blood of the Lamb.

Glory be to GOD, Praise Jesus!
 

Evangelist

New Member
I'm wondering why there are 53 likes to this post?
@ evangelist:
IMHO, I think having questions is great and fantastic however, when there are people trying to lovingly and gently explain why you're in error and you come back fighting, prideful and arrogant that is not good. I pray that you go to God with a humble and teachable heart and seek the truth that your searching for. The Holy Spirit will guide you to all truth. There's no sense trying to divide people and try to prove yourself right and everyone else wrong. I'm trying to understand your motive here?
I'd say there are members who agree with me, but remain silent.
But, I was called to be an evangelist ... evangelists don't care what people say or do against them.
My motive should be obvious ... I'm pointing feel-good OSAS people towards Jesus's and Paul's warnings.
Hey, maybe they'll help someone ... and the Holy Spirit's not mute either.
 

Evangelist

New Member
If you sin, you sin.....but do not do it purposefully.
... your name was written in The Book Of Life, and it can never be erased!
Glory be to GOD, Praise Jesus!
Does one good erase two bad?

So, a born-again Christian cannot purposely sin?
I'm not talking edification here, but reality.

Where does it say one's name CAN be erased from the Book of Life?

Yup, believe me, the more PRAISE the better!
 

seank6

Member
I'd say there are members who agree with me, but remain silent.
But, I was called to be an evangelist ... evangelists don't care what people say or do against them.
My motive should be obvious ... I'm pointing feel-good OSAS people towards Jesus's and Paul's warnings.
Hey, maybe they'll help someone ... and the Holy Spirit's not mute either.

id be interested in seeing your walk my friend before throwing stones at other brothers and sisters in Christ
 

Evangelist

New Member
id be interested in seeing your walk my friend before throwing stones at other brothers and sisters in Christ
Trying to help people recognize the warnings is throwing stones?

And ignoring the many dozens of warnings is more than obvious ...
who here will even acknowledge them, much less speak of them?
 

seank6

Member
Trying to help people recognize the warnings is throwing stones?

And ignoring the many dozens of warnings is more than obvious ...
who here will even acknowledge them, much less speak of them?

no its just that we have all sinned and fallen short.. its ONLY the Grace of God that saves us not by anything we say or do!!
 

acceptedinthebeloved

Well-Known Member
Evangelist wrote: I truly believe that you guys are not working out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

So, just tell me, if I'm wrong. I can handle it.

Here, you are taking Paul's words out of context in order to bludgeon people.

(Is "bludgeon" a noun or a verb? :hehheh )

The verse does not mean what you are using it to mean. (It does not mean that Christ's work on the Cross was somehow insufficient, and we need to finish it for Him, "or else.")

Here's what I wrote in one of my first posts here on RF, about this passage:

The Philippians were in "fearful circumstances."

Their mentor, Paul, was now in prison (a fearful circumstance).

Persecution was on the increase (a fearful circumstance).

Here's what I had written on the other forum (and though I would probably tweek it a bit, I hope you get the basic idea):

The context of the phrase "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" is where Paul is saying to the Philippians to "work it outwardly, despite the fearful circumstances" they found themselves in... (Paul was in prison). In other words, "fear not" and "just do it" ( :lol: ) because "it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to do of His good pleasure." They didn't need Paul's presence, afterall. (Philippians 2:12-13)

Philippians 1:28a gives one clue to this being the intended meaning: "in nothing [be] terrified by your adversaries."

Paul tells them (by way of encouragement) that "many of the brethren..., waxing confident by my bonds, are much more bold to speak the word without fear." Philippians 1:14

In verse 12 (the verse in question, and key), Paul mentions the distinction between their being in his presence, and now (much more) in his absence, to work it outwardly because it was "God which worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure." They were to be confident in this.

This should all be understood in light of Philippians 1:6, "Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ." Therein we find boldness. Understanding our (legal and permanent) "position" in Christ directly affects our "condition," that is, our walk in the Christian life in this world.

One writer expressed it this way:

By it he works out "his own salvation with fear and trembling," from every trap and from every snare which Satan spreads in his path. Fear and trembling will always accompany me - not distrust of God, but distrust of myself - because I see what a poor thing I am in conflict with my wily foe, and how I tend to respond to the very suggestions which he makes to me on the road.
...

It is important also to notice that this verse (Phil. 2:12) is one of the texts which is used by the enemies of the truth to deny that one can know that he has the salvation of the soul. They say, "Even Paul tells the Philippians to work out their own salvation with fear and trembling." When the context is seen this assumed difficulty disappears. It is most disastrous to take words or passages of Scripture out of their connection; for, if kept and read where God has placed them, the harmony and beauty of the whole is preserved; and what is more, the enemy is often defeated by the very text with which he sought to, defeat us. No one need fear to look at the passages of Scripture he quotes.

- HC Anstey (1888) Hope that helps! :hat:

http://www.raptureforums.com/forum/bible-study-q/53248-explanation-phil-2-12-a.html#post841901151


There are many such-like misunderstood/misinterpreted/misapplied passages. This is just one example.
 

mattfivefour

Well-Known Member
I appreciate the desire of Evangelist's heart to see men and women who name the name of Christ living in victory over sin. Where I differ from him is how that is accomplished and whether it is causative of our salvation or resulting from it. And that hinges on whether we are saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone ... or by grace through faith in Christ, followed by continual obedience to His law, which—if we are not careful and fall in some sin or sins—will cause us to lose our salvation regardless of our faith in Jesus Christ and the all-sufficiency of His sacrifice.

Like Evangelist, I too wish to see all living in victory. We cannot live sinlessly because sin is very subtle and can be an almost unnoticed attitude of the heart. Jesus said thinking a thing is the same in God's eyes as having done it. And James tells us that keeping the whole law yet stumbling in one part puts us in the same boat in God's eyes as the sinner (James 2:10). All sin is falling short of the perfection of God and NONE of us is capable of that perfection in this flesh. That is why Isaiah wrote that even our most righteous deeds are as used menstrual rags in God's eyes (Isaiah 64:6). That is why Paul wrote to the believers at Rome that, whether law keeper or not, all have sinned and fallen short of the glory (δόξα - doxa - glory, honor, exalted character; ie: the nature and thus the standard) of God (Romans 3:21-23). We are accepted ONLY in Christ (Ephesians 1:6; . And IN Christ we have everything needful for our salvation. And we did not and do not work for it: it is provided to us by Him through what He did at Calvary.

Yet we have to cooperate in the process. James rightly says that our works demonstrate our faith (James 2:18). And when we walk in the desire for obedience, reckoning ourselves to be dead to sin, seeking always to obey, asking God for Him to work that victory out in our life, we experience not salvation but blessing in communion with God. It is in obeying Him that we are blessed by close fellowship with Him and He is able to pour out on us His good. James' teaching is another statement of the truth communicated through Isaiah: "If you are willing and obey, you will eat the fruit of the land." Works demonstrating faith is the corollary of obedience demonstrating willingness. But that obedience stems from a desire to please God and depends not just on a mindset of wanting to obey but on a reliance on the work of the Holy Spirit to provide the power to enable that obedience. The legalist teachers put the emphasis on man's efforts to obey rather than on God's efforts to will and empower that obedience. But as Jesus said, "without Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5). And as the Holy Spirit said through Paul, we put to death our flesh BY the Holy Spirit (Romans 8:13). This is sanctification. But our sanctification is the result of our salvation, not its cause.

The Bible tells us that, in our position in Christ, we are already blameless and righteous and holy and pure and seated with Him in the heavenlies. But I don't even need to consider the matter for one second to realize that I myself am none of those things in terms of my current condition. Yes, I try to live pleasing to Him, but I am so far from His perfection that were it not for His promises I would be in utter despair. And so is every single man who has ever lived, Christ excepted. Even Paul referred to himself as the chiefest of sinners. Thus sanctification is the process of bringing our condition in line with our position.

But for what purpose? So that we might be saved? No. We are already saved. We are fit for heaven this very second; in fact at the very second we believed. Then why are we still in this flesh? And if we are still in this flesh which wars against God, why must we struggle to be sanctified and be more and more images of Christ?

There are some who teach sinless perfection. They are merely deceiving themselves if they think they are sinless. This error grows out of the false belief in "instantaneous sanctification" ... the belief that the moment you are saved you are instantly perfected and, thus, if you sin you are not saved. But the Bible does not teach that. As holy-sounding as it is, it is ungodly error. No, our sanctification is progressive, produced by the Holy Spirit as we desire to please God and as we cooperate by trying to obey Him, relying on the Holy Spirit to produce in us the victory we desire. We do this by knowing God's will for us (which is learned by reading God's Word which is opened by prayer) then exercising our faith in Christ's finished work at the Cross (which faith is exercised through prayer.) As we seek to obey, and trust in the security of His salvation, He will more and more manifest in us His power for us to more and more live a sanctified life. And the purpose of that life is NOT to secure our salvation (which is secured in Christ and sealed by the Holy Spirit); it is to make us living witnesses to the reality of Christ and His salvation. Our lives in fact are to testify as to His truth: that He is real and that He saves us, translating us from the Kingdom of this world into His own Kingdom of light and thus changes us from what we were into brand new creatures.

THAT, my friends, is the purpose of sanctification. And that is why, if you are indeed Christ's, you will desire it above everything!

So, I agree fully with my friend The Evangelist who so greatly desires to see Christians living lives of obedience. I too desire that more than anything. It is what undergirds my ministry—here and elsewhere. But it is not a product of man's efforts prompted by fear of losing one's eternal salvation. It is the product of a loving heart produced in us by a loving God who creates in us a new heart and a new spirit, who puts his law in our minds and writes it in our hearts, who creates in us a desire to please Him ... out of love. Indeed, if we are truly saved, we are so transformed by His love for us while we were yet sinners and despite our own weaknesses even now, that we love Him deeply and truly and desire above all not to disappoint Him or hurt Him but please Him in all our ways.

And dear ones, you who may be dealing with persistent and besetting sin. Know that His love for you does not wane or wax cold. He loves you as you are; but He desires for you to be free from that sin that entangles your feet and causes you to trip and fall. Begin to reckon that He has indeed delivered you for He indeed defeated sin at the Cross. Then pray daily and continually, at a set time (the discipline of this is important), for His victory to be worked out in your life. Ensure that as faithfully as you pray, you read His Word in an organized fashion. Then when temptation strikes out from ambush at you, do not focus on the temptation but on what Christ did at the Cross. Focus on Him, not on sin, self or satan. Have faith in the truth of His Word, and do not be discouraged if you fail. Nor run away from Him and try to hide. Go to Him as a loving Father and confess your failing (which He already knows) and ask Him for His help to overcome. John says, "Who is the one who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?" (1 John 5:5) In other words faith in Christ and what He did will enable you to be an overcomer. He is to be the object of our faith and the focus of our attention in trial and temptation.

As you consistently do these things, drawing closer to Him in the knowledge of Him through His Word and prayer, always willing to obey as He enables you, and trusting in Him to produce the power in you to enable that obedience, you WILL begin to experience the victory you desire. Just always press on, persevering until the end.
 
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nillapoet

Well-Known Member
Salvation is given by grace not by works. If it were by works Christianity would be just like every other religion that requires works for salvation.

Also, there's a difference between a discussion and arguing. I can see why some people don't like christians. There are some that argue all the time instead of listening once in a while.
 

dave-o

Well-Known Member
Thanks mattfivefour! Fully and beautifully stated.

And thank you Jesus for setting me free from fear forever.

Romans 8:15
For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.”
 

NCHPD6

New Member
Does one good erase two bad?

So, a born-again Christian cannot purposely sin?
I'm not talking edification here, but reality.

Where does it say one's name CAN be erased from the Book of Life?

Yup, believe me, the more PRAISE the better!

I did not say one's name CAN be erased. A Christian can purposefully sin, I said dont sin on purpose, meaning you shouldn't. Also, what do you mean by, "Does one good erase two bad?"
 

Evangelist

New Member
The verse (Phil 2:13) does not mean what you are using it to mean.
(It does not mean that Christ's work on the Cross was somehow insufficient,
and we need to finish it for Him, "or else.")
The NKJV Study Bible says ...
"The word translated "work out" is used by the 1st C author Strabo to speak
of digging silver out of silver mines. Thus salvation can be compared to
a huge gift that needs to be unwrapped for one's thorough enjoyment
... work out, not work for their salvation."


Hopefully, the Greeks understood all of this ... for it sure is lost in the English.
With 100 warnings, it makes sense to me that people would have some fear and trembling.

We must be careful with our English translations because some Greek words
can be translated in 30 different ways depending on the context.
Comparing an Isaiah chapter in KJV and NKJV, we found some rather obvious KJV errors.
Erroneous doctrines can come out of Scriptural errors.
 

Evangelist

New Member

We all agree there are multitudes of people in Evangelical churches who are NOT co-operating
(mainly through refusing to be obedient) with the Holy Spirit in being sanctified unto holiness.

So, IMO, the questions are obvious:
1) Are any of these multitudes born-again?
2) If yes, will God eventually get them on board with the sanctification process?
3) Is it even possible for a born-again believer to forever reject being sanctified?
4) Is being sanctified even necessary to inherit eternal life?
5) Are all (or many) of the 100 dire warnings directed at born-again believers, or other people?
6) Are the warnings directed at born-again believers just to help them qualify for rewards?
Etc. etc.

Have I written this here already? ...
Historically, i.e. in the OT especially, God has made a point of insisting on He and man
working together in order to accomplish all of His goals on earth.

If you don't agree, I suggest that you re-read the OT (and maybe even the NT).

I see sanctification as being the last of these "working together" deals.

P.S. You must understand that evangelists are not the least bit fazed at obstacles or opposition.
 

mattfivefour

Well-Known Member
We all agree there are multitudes of people in Evangelical churches who are NOT co-operating
(mainly through refusing to be obedient) with the Holy Spirit in being sanctified unto holiness.

So, IMO, the questions are obvious:

1) Are any of these multitudes born-again?
Yes. And they are ALL cooperating to a certain extent—though perhaps not to the extent that we judge they should. Many have not yet progressed along the path of dying to self. Rare is the person who has truly done so. And, if you were to ask those few, they would claim they still have not done so. Such is true humility and an honest assessment of one's own heart.

2) If yes, will God eventually get them on board with the sanctification process?
That is between God and them. If they are truly His, He will.

3) Is it even possible for a born-again believer to forever reject being sanctified?
I do not believe so. The new nature implanted would mitigate against that possibility.

4) Is being sanctified even necessary to inherit eternal life?
Positionally, yes. Conditionally, no. We have the former through Christ's work; we progressively received the latter through growing in obedience.

5) Are all (or many) of the 100 dire warnings directed at born-again believers, or other people?
The Holy Spirit has directed them to both as He foresaw that both would read His Word. They are intended to bring the lost to a realization of his lostness and cause him to seek God's mercy. And they are intended to cause those who claim salvation to "make their calling and election sure" (2 Peter 1:10). In other words, to always "examine themselves that they be in the faith" (2 Corinthians 13:5).

6) Are the warnings directed at born-again believers just to help them qualify for rewards?
They are given for five reasons (five also, interestingly, being the Biblical number representative of God's mercy)— the one I gave in my response to your point 5 above (for those who claim Christ to ensure they are truly saved); to create a Church on earth that is a faithful witness to the truth of the gospel; for the believer to store up treasures in Heaven; for him or her enjoy increasing communion with God here; and for him or her to enjoy the fullness of His blessings here.

P.S. You must understand that evangelists are not the least bit fazed at obstacles or opposition.
And neither are we who are pastors.​


 
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Evangelist

New Member
And neither are we who are pastors.
This is the only statement I can't agree with ... because ...
some (many?) pastors' main objective is not to turn their customers away, thus losing their tithes.


We all agree there are multitudes of people in Evangelical churches who are NOT co-operating
(mainly through refusing to be obedient) with the Holy Spirit in being sanctified unto holiness.
And IMO, in worse shape than these are many in Catholic, Orthodox, and old mainline Protestant churches.

After prayerfully considering these discussions, I am led to believe that ...

(1) Those who have been "elected before the foundation of the world" will indeed inherit salvation.

(2) The 100 warnings are mostly for others who are sitting in church pews thinking they are saved.
And some of these are actually elect and belong in Group (1), but have not entered into it yet.

(3) The warnings are also for some elect outside the church who will some day be in Group (1).

(4) The warnings are also so unbelievers (who have heard and/or read them)
cannot come before Jesus later at the judgment and say they weren't warned.
Jesus told me that this was the second reason why He was sending me to evangelize the unsaved.
 

dave-o

Well-Known Member
[...]people in Evangelical churches who are NOT co-operating
(mainly through refusing to be obedient) with the Holy Spirit in being sanctified unto holiness.
[...]

In your opinion, what exactly does co-operating fully with the Holy Spirit involve?

Stated another way what is your laundry list of things that YOU are actively doing that you are convinced that others are not?

(The term "co-operating with the Holy Spirit in being sanctified unto holiness" is so vague as to have little or no practical meaning)
 

mattfivefour

Well-Known Member
This is the only statement I can't agree with ... because ...
some (many?) pastors' main objective is not to turn their customers away, thus losing their tithes.
These aren't true shepherds, these are hirelings. From Paul's epistles we know they have always been in the Church. And it applies equally to some evangelists.

We all agree there are multitudes of people in Evangelical churches who are NOT co-operating
(mainly through refusing to be obedient) with the Holy Spirit in being sanctified unto holiness.
And IMO, in worse shape than these are many in Catholic, Orthodox, and old mainline Protestant churches.

After prayerfully considering these discussions, I am led to believe that ...

(1) Those who have been "elected before the foundation of the world" will indeed inherit salvation.

(2) The 100 warnings are mostly for others who are sitting in church pews thinking they are saved.
And some of these are actually elect and belong in Group (1), but have not entered into it yet.

(3) The warnings are also for some elect outside the church who will some day be in Group (1).

(4) The warnings are also so unbelievers (who have heard and/or read them)
cannot come before Jesus later at the judgment and say they weren't warned.
Jesus told me that this was the second reason why He was sending me to evangelize the unsaved.
This leads me to ask this question. I believe I asked it earlier but you did not answer it. Do you believe that God elected, before the foundation of the world, only some to be saved? And, therefore, those who were not so elected cannot be saved?

And Dave's question above is deserving of an answer, too.
 

Evangelist

New Member
In your opinion, what exactly does co-operating fully with the Holy Spirit involve?
We are to heed the commandments of Scripture, and we are to be obedient to the leading of the Holy Spirit (Rom 8:14).
Doesn't this cover all the bases? What is so complex and mysterious about this?
 
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