Diet advice

RobinB

Well-Known Member
I'm back on low carb and can feel the fat melting. I have a desk job and don't go to the gym. It's possible to lose weight without exercise, I'm proof.
If you have Netflix, watch the magic pill. It's not about a pill but changing your diet.
Same here, it's slower loss than it would have been when I was younger, but it's happening. Also have a desk job.
 

athenasius

Well-Known Member
when I'm low carb I don't think about food because my blood sugar is stable and I'm not hungry.
Me too.

The exercise=weight loss connection has been studied and it's JUST NOT a great way to try to lose weight. Yes it's healthy, but for most people with larger amounts of weight the results of a low carb diet are far far better with FAR lower risks of joint damage. And for people in wheelchairs, whose mobility is limited, and who can't exercise enough to make a difference DO lose weight just fine without it. Plenty of low carb diet anecdotes and even some studies on that. Here's an example: https://www.dietdoctor.com/the-keto-diet-from-inability-to-walk-to-flying-a-plane

Exercise can help MAINTAIN weight loss but the science is pretty good proving that it is NOT that helpful in actual weight loss. https://www.vox.com/2016/4/28/11518804/weight-loss-exercise-myth-burn-calories

Low carb beats low calorie diets for weight loss particularly in people with more to lose whose Insulin Resistance is more established and in WOMEN whose hormones trend to fat storage, rather than fat burning like men with an abundance of testosterone. https://medium.com/better-humans/why-a-low-carb-diet-is-best-for-weight-loss-28fd2a731146
 

athenasius

Well-Known Member
To lose weight, first you need to stop thinking about food, secondly you need to start playing sports and thirdly, you should eat so that you consume fewer calories than you spend. Thanks to these three tips, you can easily lose about 5-8 kilograms per month. If these steps do not help you, then you may have problems with metabolism and genetics. In this case, you need to urgently consult a doctor. Or you can try the fat burning operation at ********* My friend has already tried this method and it really works.
This thread, was started by the OP who gave us this request. Your reply is way off base. This is what she asked and it's a very very reasonable request:
Hello,
I'm in a wheelchair due to multiple sclerosis and have gained a large amount of weight over the years. I'm trying to avoid a gastric bypass and I'm interested in hearing about people's experiences with diets; especially people with a lot of health issues like myself. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks
This link would help her far more, https://www.dietdoctor.com/the-keto-diet-from-inability-to-walk-to-flying-a-plane

Ok I am a retired RN from here in Western Canada. I've got problems with this advice you gave.

Stop thinking about food. Works if you aren't dieting much, but on a low cal diet, it's all I can think of and most people are the same way. For people with more than 10 lbs to lose, this advice not only won't work, it flies in the face of how your body works to maintain it's weight, even if it's overweight.

Play sports. I have an auto immune disorder plus thyroid problems. There are days when just getting dressed is an accomplishment! The OP has MS, and is in a wheelchair. SPORTS ARE NOT THE SOLUTION for either situation.

Eat so you consume fewer calories than you expend . Well first off, Low CARBING will ensure that without the cravings that go along with low calorie dieting for a lot of us who've tried both systems. So yes, Low Carb and Keto WILL result in net fewer calories, but that isn't the whole reason that those diets help people lose weight-- there is some metabolic science to back that up. For proof read Gary Taubes book Why We Get Fat And What To Do About It. He goes into all the science, all the metabolic research as to why the diets we've been discussing in this thread not only work to lose weight but also to reduce inflammation for those of us with Auto Immune disorders (like MS for instance)

5-8 KILOS??? That is 11 lbs to 17.64 LBS! That is NOT a sustainable weight loss, that is a crash diet. Most dieticians prefer to see the fastest safe weight loss in the 8 to 10 lb per month range or at a moderate rate of 6-8 lbs per month in order to prevent a sudden severe rebound after the diet is over to weight that usually soars well above.

Most people in practice, who lose weight slowly don't rebound as easily after the diet is over. 6-8 lb per month is better and safer in the long run than 8-10. And if you need to diet for any serious length of time, as people with serious weight problems do, you'll bump into the plateau phase where your body resists any weight loss or it drops to a lb or 2 per month, not per week. That situation can be very difficult to handle, but it's not impossible. Weight loss will continue if you keep going in spite of the metabolic roadblock that the body puts up against further weight loss.

Your advice to see the Dr. is a good one, and for anyone with more than 10-20 lbs to lose, that should be the first step. For people with a lot more weight than that, it is essential. And most reputable Drs would NOT recommend a procedure such as is done at that clinic. The problem with fat burning (they are using injectable enzymes) or cool sculpting (a different but similar technique) is that it creates a lot of circulating breakdown products from the dead fat cells. The fat contents can create what are known as lipid embolisms and the cellular debris create a load on the kidneys. This is NOT without risk to the body and also the wallet. Like liposuction before it, the risks are higher than originally claimed. Eventually the lawsuits catch up.

I took a look at the link, It's a medical spa type clinic, and services are mostly described in French in spite of the English translation. Their prices are not listed, in addition they offer a no money down, "easy" payment plan-- that is more akin to high pressure sales schemes. Another red flag. Nor do they guarantee that a genuine MD is anywhere in sight. Most reputable MD's aren't involved in this sort of stuff and they are much more upfront about costs. In Western Canada, the services this clinic does would start around 5 THOUSAND dollars!

I'll stick with Keto and low carb thanks. Far far safer not to mention cheaper! Not to mention effective!
 
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RobinB

Well-Known Member
Yeah for me personally I was taking large doses of D3 just to get it to 20. Then my doc told me that 50 or so would be ideal.
The K2 made it skyrocket to some crazy high number. The levels were done by using the LabCorp company who did the analyzing. That was my experience but like you said everybody's different. Honestly the experience scared me because I was concerned that I was D toxic. I haven't checked what the levels are lately since a few years ago.
I take a D-3/K2 combo (from the mercola site).
 

Cindy S.

When he comes, will he find faith? Luke 18:8
This thread, was started by the OP who gave us this request. Your reply is way off base. This is what she asked and it's a very very reasonable request:


This link would help her far more, https://www.dietdoctor.com/the-keto-diet-from-inability-to-walk-to-flying-a-plane

Ok I am a retired RN from here in Western Canada. I've got problems with this advice you gave.

Stop thinking about food. Works if you aren't dieting much, but on a low cal diet, it's all I can think of and most people are the same way. For people with more than 10 lbs to lose, this advice not only won't work, it flies in the face of how your body works to maintain it's weight, even if it's overweight.

Play sports. I have an auto immune disorder plus thyroid problems. There are days when just getting dressed is an accomplishment! The OP has MS, and is in a wheelchair. SPORTS ARE NOT THE SOLUTION for either situation.

Eat so you consume fewer calories than you expend . Well first off, Low CARBING will ensure that without the cravings that go along with low calorie dieting for a lot of us who've tried both systems. So yes, Low Carb and Keto WILL result in net fewer calories, but that isn't the whole reason that those diets help people lose weight-- there is some metabolic science to back that up. For proof read Gary Taubes book Why We Get Fat And What To Do About It. He goes into all the science, all the metabolic research as to why the diets we've been discussing in this thread not only work to lose weight but also to reduce inflammation for those of us with Auto Immune disorders (like MS for instance)

5-8 KILOS??? That is 11 lbs to 17.64 LBS! That is NOT a sustainable weight loss, that is a crash diet. Most dieticians prefer to see the fastest safe weight loss in the 8 to 10 lb per month range or at a moderate rate of 6-8 lbs per month in order to prevent a sudden severe rebound after the diet is over to weight that usually soars well above.

Most people in practice, who lose weight slowly don't rebound as easily after the diet is over. 6-8 lb per month is better and safer in the long run than 8-10. And if you need to diet for any serious length of time, as people with serious weight problems do, you'll bump into the plateau phase where your body resists any weight loss or it drops to a lb or 2 per month, not per week. That situation can be very difficult to handle, but it's not impossible. Weight loss will continue if you keep going in spite of the metabolic roadblock that the body puts up against further weight loss.

Your advice to see the Dr. is a good one, and for anyone with more than 10-20 lbs to lose, that should be the first step. For people with a lot more weight than that, it is essential. And most reputable Drs would NOT recommend a procedure such as is done at that clinic. The problem with fat burning (they are using injectable enzymes) or cool sculpting (a different but similar technique) is that it creates a lot of circulating breakdown products from the dead fat cells. The fat contents can create what are known as lipid embolisms and the cellular debris create a load on the kidneys. This is NOT without risk to the body and also the wallet. Like liposuction before it, the risks are higher than originally claimed. Eventually the lawsuits catch up.

I took a look at the link, It's a medical spa type clinic, and services are mostly described in French in spite of the English translation. Their prices are not listed, in addition they offer a no money down, "easy" payment plan-- that is more akin to high pressure sales schemes. Another red flag. Nor do they guarantee that a genuine MD is anywhere in sight. Most reputable MD's aren't involved in this sort of stuff and they are much more upfront about costs. In Western Canada, the services this clinic does would start around 5 THOUSAND dollars!

I'll stick with Keto and low carb thanks. Far far safer not to mention cheaper! Not to mention effective!
Did God make cake and cookies, he didn't make processed sugar either. I can't eat that poison.
 

Cindy S.

When he comes, will he find faith? Luke 18:8
If you have Netflix, watch the documentary, Forks over knives. You'll love it.
I watched it again last night.
 

ozaprah

Well-Known Member
If you have Netflix, watch the documentary, Forks over knives. You'll love it.
I watched it again last night.
Whilst the movie is made with a good degree of passion, be aware that a lot the science they present is far from accurate.
A long summary of the science and it's errors can be found here:
https://deniseminger.com/2011/09/22/forks-over-knives-is-the-science-legit-a-review-and-critique/

Can I suggest another documentary perhaps, also on Netflix.. 'The Magic Pill'. It also features Prof Tim Noakes as mentioned up thread.
The answer to me seems to be a low carb, healthy fat (saturated, monounsaturated, omega 3's), whole food diet.

Whilst I have no problems with someone choosing a solely whole food plant based diet for ethical reasons, the science of 'meat is bad' does not hold up when scrutinized.

For those looking for more science information behind low carb / healthy fat (LCHF) nutrition, check out the YouTube channel 'Low Carb Down Under', and click on the 'vidoes' link.

And to the OP, I would definitely advocate LCHF way of eating... for both weight loss and for inflammation reduction. Getting you Omega 3:6 fat ratio under control is key to inflammation control.

(edit: ooops... realised I just posted in a For the Ladies thread.... sorry! LCHF is a bit of a passion on mine, didn't even look first to check..)
 
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Cindy S.

When he comes, will he find faith? Luke 18:8
Whilst the movie is made with a good degree of passion, be aware that a lot the science they present is far from accurate.
A long summary of the science and it's errors can be found here:
https://deniseminger.com/2011/09/22/forks-over-knives-is-the-science-legit-a-review-and-critique/

Can I suggest another documentary perhaps, also on Netflix.. 'The Magic Pill'. It also features Prof Tim Noakes as mentioned up thread.
The answer to me seems to be a low carb, healthy fat (saturated, monounsaturated, omega 3's), whole food diet.

Whilst I have no problems with someone choosing a solely whole food plant based diet for ethical reasons, the science of 'meat is bad' does not hold up when scrutinized.

For those looking for more science information behind low carb / healthy fat (LCHF) nutrition, check out the YouTube channel 'Low Carb Down Under', and click on the 'vidoes' link.

And to the OP, I would definitely advocate LCHF way of eating... for both weight loss and for inflammation reduction. Getting you Omega 3:6 fat ratio under control is key to inflammation control.

(edit: ooops... realised I just posted in a For the Ladies thread.... sorry! LCHF is a bit of a passion on mine, didn't even look first to check..)
I also watched The Magic Pill, it's good too.
I lost 100 lbs on Atkins back in 2000, went off it and gained some weight. I'm back on the wagon with a plan I know works, every time and without running around like a hamster in a wheel.
 

athenasius

Well-Known Member
Whilst the movie is made with a good degree of passion, be aware that a lot the science they present is far from accurate.
A long summary of the science and it's errors can be found here:
https://deniseminger.com/2011/09/22/forks-over-knives-is-the-science-legit-a-review-and-critique/

Can I suggest another documentary perhaps, also on Netflix.. 'The Magic Pill'. It also features Prof Tim Noakes as mentioned up thread.
The answer to me seems to be a low carb, healthy fat (saturated, monounsaturated, omega 3's), whole food diet.

Whilst I have no problems with someone choosing a solely whole food plant based diet for ethical reasons, the science of 'meat is bad' does not hold up when scrutinized.

For those looking for more science information behind low carb / healthy fat (LCHF) nutrition, check out the YouTube channel 'Low Carb Down Under', and click on the 'vidoes' link.

And to the OP, I would definitely advocate LCHF way of eating... for both weight loss and for inflammation reduction. Getting you Omega 3:6 fat ratio under control is key to inflammation control.

(edit: ooops... realised I just posted in a For the Ladies thread.... sorry! LCHF is a bit of a passion on mine, didn't even look first to check..)
Thanks for stepping in here Ozaprah, much appreciated. I couldn't agree more. Denise Minger demolished the China Study, and I'm glad she took on the lack of science in the Forks over Knives thing. Both of them are being quoted as if they were proven fact, and they aren't.

It's perfectly ok to be a vegetarian as a personal choice but to appeal to people to quit eating meat for health reasons requires more than a few lopsided studies that were set up to give the results that everyone quotes from-- which was the problem with the China Study (and is what Denise objected to in her China Study debunking/rebuttal). I'll have to go see what she did with Forks over Knives.

For some of us (me included) a lower carb diet that reduces inflammation makes a huge difference.
 

Cindy S.

When he comes, will he find faith? Luke 18:8
Thanks for stepping in here Ozaprah, much appreciated. I couldn't agree more. Denise Minger demolished the China Study, and I'm glad she took on the lack of science in the Forks over Knives thing. Both of them are being quoted as if they were proven fact, and they aren't.

It's perfectly ok to be a vegetarian as a personal choice but to appeal to people to quit eating meat for health reasons requires more than a few lopsided studies that were set up to give the results that everyone quotes from-- which was the problem with the China Study (and is what Denise objected to in her China Study debunking/rebuttal). I'll have to go see what she did with Forks over Knives.

For some of us (me included) a lower carb diet that reduces inflammation makes a huge difference.
Let me know what you think about Forks over Knives.
 

athenasius

Well-Known Member
Let me know what you think about Forks over Knives.
I don't do Netflix. Never have. Hoping to continue in my Netflix free zone.

Although our son told me there's a new Star Trek out called Picard, only that is on Amazon's version of Netflix called Prime -- and I don't have that either. I'm tempted but told him to watch it and give me the gist. I want to continue in my happy little boycott of Hollywood. :lol

BUT I'm open to hearing what you thought of this movie and why I should watch it.

And I'd like to know whether you went thru Denise's rather long but fair and science based critique of it and if you disagree with Denise, what points you agree and disagree on.

I have read enough of Denise and a few other sites to realize it's just a movie/dvd version of the long debunked China Study which I did read, along with Denise Minger's excellent rebuttal/picking apart of the claims of the China Study and now this version of it.

I did read all the way thru Denise's critique of Forks over Knives. It's long but worth it.

If you present me with a compelling reason to actually break down and figure out how Netflix works, how much it will cost, and how to make it work on my TV and why I should break my Hollywood free winning streak, I am listening. But first I'd like to know what you thought of Denise Minger's critique and if she made any big errors in her analysis.
 
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Cindy S.

When he comes, will he find faith? Luke 18:8
I don't do Netflix. Never have. Hoping to continue in my Netflix free zone.

Although our son told me there's a new Star Trek out called Picard, only that is on Amazon's version of Netflix called Prime -- and I don't have that either. I'm tempted but told him to watch it and give me the gist. I want to continue in my happy little boycott of Hollywood. :lol

BUT I'm open to hearing what you thought of this movie and why I should watch it.

And I'd like to know whether you went thru Denise's rather long but fair and science based critique of it and if you disagree with Denise, what points you agree and disagree on.

I have read enough of Denise and a few other sites to realize it's just a movie/dvd version of the long debunked China Study which I did read, along with Denise Minger's excellent rebuttal/picking apart of the claims of the China Study and now this version of it.

I did read all the way thru Denise's critique of Forks over Knives. It's long but worth it.

If you present me with a compelling reason to actually break down and figure out how Netflix works, how much it will cost, and how to make it work on my TV and why I should break my Hollywood free winning streak, I am listening. But first I'd like to know what you thought of Denise Minger's critique and if she made any big errors in her analysis.
Forks over knives showed the sickly aboriginies from south Africa who are sick from the western diet, one generation ago when the europeans came they died from disease, another generation back it was from fighting. Now they have diabetes. cancer. etc have adopted the western diet and its making them sick. It also showed a family who ate processed junk and had a daughter they couldn't control. They threw out the junk. got the girl on real food and it was a remarkable transformation.
 

athenasius

Well-Known Member
OK Now I'm getting what you mean.

Yes Denise Minger in her critique gave the makers praise for these anecdotes of people who ate junk food (loaded with trans fats, carbs, sugars etc with zero nutrition) who were ill as a result. I'll give a good quote from her below. I hope you'll read her report even if you just skim the high points because she is fair.

Denise made the point that anything that got them off that was a step up nutritionally, and moving to a diet with lots of veggies and other more nutritionally dense foods was going to result in improved health. This is a GOOD thing. And when people improve like that they can avoid BIG health problems that can kill them or make them very ill.

This is what happens when people who have been eating junk for years, move to any improvement. It can be quite dramatic.

I think I'm in agreement with the movie on that point for sure. Most sensible low carbers eat their veggies.

But long term other things happen when you deprive people of good proteins and good fats. Our brains are made up of mostly cholesterol which works as an insulator among other functions, and it's a vital part of our cell membranes.

Proteins:
Amino acids like Carnitine (only available from meat) and some of the other "non essential" amino acids that we get from meats, eggs, dairy etc that are non existent in vegan or most vegetarian diets are stored in the body for up to several years.

This accounts for the immediate improvement in the health of some people who become vegans for example and exchange a lot of high carbs and sugars, trans fats, processed foods for eating veggies, beans etc for the first time in any quantity.

Their bodies use up the "non" essential amino acids to fill in the gaps in the inadequate proteins--and their bodies begin to repair after years of eating junk without minerals like magnesium from leafy greens, beans or grains or vitamins like folic acid that are found in large supply in leafy veggies and some fruits. They start to soak those up like dry ground soaks up rain.

But what is going on is their storage tanks of amino acids that are often called non essential are being slowly steadily drained.

Somewhere around the 2-6 year mark, they will start having trouble with energy conversion in the body (carnitine does that) and some of them will start to have health issues relating to protein intake. They won't die of it (that's why these are considered non essential) but their skin, muscle tone, hair, eyes and vital organs will begin to suffer along with their overall health.

Fertility goes down, traditional vegetarian cultures often accidentally eat enough bugs in their foods that they are ok, some supplement with seafood or eggs in order to support fertility and pregnancy. Fats and proteins are added in ways the charts don't show. This is why some of the studies are skewed, because they don't take insects or supplementary foods into consideration when they say such and such a culture does fine being vegetarian over generations.

Fats:
The problem with the kind of diets that the 2 Drs from the video present is that they severely limit fats. Again, people who have been eating a lot of animal protein have built up a good supply of cholesterol that they can use. BUT if they've been eating a lot of Omega 6 fats (corn oil, canola oil, vegetable oils) and trans fats (processed cheese, crackers, cookies, anything from a deep fat fryer, any margerine or shortening) they will have a lot of damaged fats in their bodies to get rid of. Those are inflammatory fats. By stopping them eating the Omega 6 fats, and the trans fats the people will slowly get rid of these bad fats.

BUT over time, they will need cholesterol, to replace what is damaged and discarded by the body. It can be made from carbs, which these vegetarian diets have in abundance, and that might seem like a good thing. But actually the type of cholesterol matters. HDL is the good kind. People who eat meat with the natural fats will have lots of that. LDL is the BAD kind. It's the one the body often creates from carbs. It's usually created along with triglycerides-- another bad indicator that comes along when the body is trying to sequester (store in a waste form) a lot of sugars and carbs that the body can't use for energy. To a degree on the diets these drs recommend, the calorie count is low enough that the people are burning the carbs and sugars, not trying to store them. So again, short term good results, but long term damage.

The problem with NOT getting enough good fats (stable fats like from meat with lots of HDL cholesterol) is that your body needs them to create good cell membranes and insulate the nerves and provide the brain with insulation so that electrical impulses don't go wrong. It's also part of the cushiony matrix that your brain cells live in. Over time that can mean that the body uses substandard LDL to replace these vital cholesterol rich body parts.

Another function of fats is hormonal messaging within the body. Everything from sex hormones down to pituitary hormones, the adrenals etc all rely on fat molecules of a good stable variety to keep the body running smoothly.

Enter things like Omega 3 fatty acids and Omega 6. We can create a limited amount of Omega 3 from plant sources like flax seed, BUT it is a temporary measure that God designed to ensure health when we can't get it from fish, eggs or meat. It relies on an enzyme that the body has to create (and it's in short supply the longer you rely on flax seeds for your Omega 3s).

WE NEED Omega 3 for a lot of the hormonal messengers like cytokines to keep them behaving in an ANTI INFLAMMATORY WAY. Unfortunately we eat a lot of Omega 6 fatty acids from vegetable oils that push the body into inflammation pathways. There is a balance that God designed. Modern food processing creates an imbalance, where the Omega 3s are damaged or missing and Omega 6 is in abundance.

The 2 drs in the video are known to downplay the risks of the vegetarian diet, demonize fats including animal fats and proteins and to misinterpret facts. For example Dr Campbell who released the China Study a few years back DELIBERATELY distorted the data. He reported that Chinese villagers who were largely vegetarian were healthier than ones that ate meat. In actual fact, the data was the exact opposite. Read Denise on this, it's quite the eye opener.

The rest of her critique (and she does give the video some positives like the above, which you mention) is dealing with the actual science behind it all. How Dr Campbell and Dr Esselstyn have again misinterpreted data to support what they think ought to work. Ancel Keyes did that in the middle to later half of the last century, and we got trans fats and vegetable oils and low fat diets that did a lot of damage. Instead of letting the data show where to go next, these men came into their studies, cherry picked results and skewed the conclusions to support a health damaging dietary recommendation.

Why did Denise Minger dissect this movie? Here's a quote:
"Why am I doing this? Am I evil?
For the record, I’m not dissecting this movie because I think everything in it is terrible. Quite the opposite, in fact. I believe the “plant-based diet doctors” got a lot of things right, and a diet of whole, unprocessed plant foods (i.e., Real Food) can bring tremendous health improvements for people who were formerly eating a low-nutrient, high-crap diet. Especially short term. But I also believe this type of diet achieves some of its success by accident, and that the perks of eliminating processed junk are inaccurately attributed to eliminating all animal foods. So the goal of this critique is to shed light on the areas where the “plant-based science” is a little, um, wilted."
 
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