Didn't Jesus say I will build my church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it

Neil777

Active Member
How do people explain the church being here when the antichrist prevails against the believers during the tribulation?

Rev 13
5 The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise its authority for forty-two months. 6 It opened its mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven. 7 It was given power to wage war against God’s holy people and to conquer them. And it was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation.

How do people get around this if they believe the church is here?
 

Geri7

Well-Known Member
How do people explain the church being here when the antichrist prevails against the believers during the tribulation?

Rev 13
5 The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise its authority for forty-two months. 6 It opened its mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven. 7 It was given power to wage war against God’s holy people and to conquer them. And it was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation.

How do people get around this if they believe the church is here?

Neil,

Well I'm going to attempt to respond . . . I've heard a few mid trib believers say "some will be raptured out before the antichrist can touch them and at the same time other believers will actually be in harms way and those are the ones the antichrist will slaughter." I'm not sure what the post trib believers think.
 

Neil777

Active Member
Neil,
Before I respond . . . are your ruffling our feathers again or do you want a serious answer? :hehheh

I am quoting scripture and seeking real answers as to how people get around this. I believe we will be raptured before the tribulation takes place. I am just wondering how people get around what the Lord said. Also, the Lord said in Luke 21
36 Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man

We are to escape all that is about to happen because the ones left behind will have to deal with the antichrist having authority over every person in the world.

Also, since I am quoting scripture, I have a serious question. Not like the last time, it was a silly question.
 

pixelpusher

Well-Known Member
For one, temporal persecution does not amount to the gates of hell prevailing.

For two, the Church Bride will be gone at that time, but very shortly after her exit, there will be a new group of believers on the earth, the Tribulation Saints.

Right on?
 

pixelpusher

Well-Known Member
I am quoting scripture and seeking real answers as to how people get around this. I believe we will be raptured before the tribulation takes place. I am just wondering how people get around what the Lord said. Also, the Lord said in Luke 21
36 Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man

We are to escape all that is about to happen because the ones left behind will have to deal with the antichrist having authority over every person in the world.

Also, since I am quoting scripture, I have a serious question. Not like the last time, it was a silly question.

This article from Jack Kelley might help in understanding these Luke 21 passages. It's getting late though, my comprehension is failing as my eyelids droop: The Olivet Discourse ... Luke's Version | GracethrufaithGracethrufaith
 

alishaba

Well-Known Member
...since I am quoting scripture, I have a serious question. Not like the last time, it was a silly question.

Since you are looking for a serious answer:

Refer back to Rev 13:7: "It was given power to wage war against God’s holy people and to conquer them."

The prophecies of Revelation are parallel prophecies to Daniel. In Daniel 7:21 and 7:25, the "holy people" are defeated by the Antichrist. This is an amazing parallel considering that Revelation and Daniel were written 600 years apart. Also, Revelation was written in Greek and Daniel in Hebrew/Aramaic, yet both of these books refer to God's "holy people." The "holy people" referred to in both of these books is the nation of Israel, not the Church. Look also to Luke 21:20-24:

“When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.​

The Tribulation is a time when the nation of Israel will be punished by God for their refusal to acknowledge Christ as their Messiah. It is also a time when this nation will finally be brought to Christ (ref Hosea 3:4-5 and Zechariah 12:10-13:1).

The Mid and Post-Tribbers overlook this point.
 

Sandee

Member
The church is a separate body from the tribulation saints. It is the tribulation saints that are overcome, not the church. Those who are not pre-trib get these prophecies mixed up and confuse the identity of the church. They use allegory to twist God's word up to mean what they want it to. Arguing with them does no good, they love a good disagreement.

If we use the literal interpretation of God's Word (God breathed) these things do not happen.
 

BuzzardHut

Bird Mod
I am quoting scripture and seeking real answers as to how people get around this. I believe we will be raptured before the tribulation takes place. I am just wondering how people get around what the Lord said. Also, the Lord said in Luke 21
36 Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man

We are to escape all that is about to happen because the ones left behind will have to deal with the antichrist having authority over every person in the world.

Also, since I am quoting scripture, I have a serious question. Not like the last time, it was a silly question.

God always has a small group of His holy people, this is not the New Testament church, but a group of people of faith in God for salvation.
 

Neil777

Active Member
The church is a separate body from the tribulation saints. It is the tribulation saints that are overcome, not the church. Those who are not pre-trib get these prophecies mixed up and confuse the identity of the church. They use allegory to twist God's word up to mean what they want it to. Arguing with them does no good, they love a good disagreement.

If we use the literal interpretation of God's Word (God breathed) these things do not happen.

It seems like the nation of Israel is now the main witness for the Lord Jesus. Are the tribulation saints the offspring of the nation Israel?

Rev 12
17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.
 

Sandee

Member
The tribulation saints are those Jews and gentiles who come to faith in Christ after the rapture has removed all the Bride of Christ, the Church.
 

WaitingForTheTrumpet

Well-Known Member
How do people explain the church being here when the antichrist prevails against the believers during the tribulation?

Rev 13
5 The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise its authority for forty-two months. 6 It opened its mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven. 7 It was given power to wage war against God’s holy people and to conquer them. And it was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation.

How do people get around this if they believe the church is here?

The Church will NOT be here by the time the Antichrist shows up on the scene. The Tribulation Saints are not the Church. They did not believe prior to the Rapture, so they must go through the Tribulation, where they will not be protected from the Antichrist or the effects of the Seals, Trumpets and Bowls of God's Wrath. Some will survive to the end of the seven years and go into the Millenial Kingdom alive. Most will not survive the entire Tribulation. They will have different functions than the Church. We will be kings and priests. They will serve in a different capacity. Our new Home will be the New Jerusalem. I don't know for sure, but I assume they will remain on Earth to serve God in the Temple.

Our salvation is secure from the moment we accept Christ and are born again. Blessed are they who believe and have not seen. We stepped out on faith alone, without seeing Jesus, or waiting for signs to prove He's real and truly coming. The Tribulation Saints held off believing until it was too late to be part of the Church, the Bride of Christ. For them, seeing is believing. I've read some who state that the Tribulation Saints will not have security in their salvation during the Tribulation, but must carefully maintain and safeguard it or they might lose it, since the Holy Spirit will not be indwelling anyone on Earth after the Rapture. I don't know of any Scripture to verify this, though.
 

alishaba

Well-Known Member
The NIV uses the word holy instead of saints as does TLB. If the correct translation is indeed "holy" rather than "saints", than I would have to come to the conclusion Rev 13:7 is about Israel.

Now you are opening a translational "can of worms" that can become very divisive when dealing with the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation. In Rev 13:7: "It was given power to wage war against God’s holy people and to conquer them," the underlying Greek is "ton hagion." This can be translated as: "the holy people" or more literally "the holy ones" or just "the holy." This is the same exact Greek expression that Paul uses in his writings that is translated as "the saints." This is not the expression that Paul uses to identify "the Church"-- that Greek word is "ekklesia."

In Revelation, this expression is translated as "the saints" or "the holy people" in Rev 11:18, 13:7, 13:10, 14:12, 16:6, 17:6, 18:20, & 18:24 to describe the nation of Israel and/or the Tribulation Saints. In Rev 5:8, 8:3-4, 19:8, & 20:9, it is used to describe the saints in heaven, which encompasses all saints including Old Testament, Church Age, and martyred Tribulation Saints. At this point, I will include the disclaimer that some people have very strong opinions about some of the references I just listed and who specifically they refer to. I am not trying to do an advanced exegesis of the entire book of Revelation in this post.

My point is: this expression "the holy people" found in Rev 13:7 can be used to refer to believers in different contexts in different places in the Bible. The context has to determine who it is referring to. In one place it might refer to Church Age saints, and in another it might refer to Tribulation saints.
 

Barbasol

Well-Known Member
Now you are opening a translational "can of worms" that can become very divisive when dealing with the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation. In Rev 13:7: "It was given power to wage war against God’s holy people and to conquer them," the underlying Greek is "ton hagion." This can be translated as: "the holy people" or more literally "the holy ones" or just "the holy." This is the same exact Greek expression that Paul uses in his writings that is translated as "the saints." This is not the expression that Paul uses to identify "the Church"-- that Greek word is "ekklesia."

In Revelation, this expression is translated as "the saints" or "the holy people" in Rev 11:18, 13:7, 13:10, 14:12, 16:6, 17:6, 18:20, & 18:24 to describe the nation of Israel and/or the Tribulation Saints. In Rev 5:8, 8:3-4, 19:8, & 20:9, it is used to describe the saints in heaven, which encompasses all saints including Old Testament, Church Age, and martyred Tribulation Saints. At this point, I will include the disclaimer that some people have very strong opinions about some of the references I just listed and who specifically they refer to. I am not trying to do an advanced exegesis of the entire book of Revelation in this post.

My point is: this expression "the holy people" found in Rev 13:7 can be used to refer to believers in different contexts in different places in the Bible. The context has to determine who it is referring to. In one place it might refer to Church Age saints, and in another it might refer to Tribulation saints.

Thanks alishaba, you are absolutely correct. It's all about context. I don't know what I was thinking.:doh:I deleted my erroneous post. I wouldn't want to mislead anyone.
 
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