Demons in Christians and the worldwide Deliverance Ministry

[LoudRam]

First off I'd like to thank everyone who contributed to this thread. It's been very helpful. Last night I just finished a book on spiritual warfare called "The Invisible War" by Chip Ingram. For the most part it was a good book but there were things in it the didn't sit right with me. For example, to claim God's promises (1 John 4:4 & 5:4-5) out loud. Why? That and a few other small things. Nothing major but just little stuff. He did have a chapter on deliverance ministries. I had some concerns in that chapter but they were put to rest in this thread. However for the record he did say that he doesn't agree with all the things that they teach like Christians bring possessed which I didn't believe either.

This thread helped clear up a few things for me. Thanks again. And I'm looking forward to reading the CIC links.

 

[Everlasting Life]

Bumping this thread....good stuff here.

 

[Armor of Light]

Fascinating and informative thread. I have heard this mentioned all over the place, including a few times here- what is up with people's eyes? :



I grew up in a church very similar to this (and the, "I bind you Satan and cast you into the pit of Hell" type stuff), minus seed offerings. There was also speaking in tongues in an English-speaking congregation; one of the main 'speakers' said she'd been visited by an angel/angels in her hotel room. Nobody ever knew what she said. Saying you thought you were getting sick or naming a medical condition you have/had was "giving power to Satan", and my folks still think that monitoring certain areas of the news is giving Satan power. There was also, "I break that curse!" if somebody joked about their car quitting or something. "Hmm, looks like rain." "I break that curse!" :

After reading through this, it is more apparent why my family had some of the problems it did (and does). As I said, very informative.

Sounds similar to the church I got saved in, being a baby Christian some of the sermons and praise/worship I loved, but some of it freaked me out and made my head spin at times, plus they were into Lordship salvation, that was in about 1985, God has brought me through and out of much, especially the last 3 years I have grown in Him, He is faithful.


John 10:27-29 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand.

 

[mattfivefour]

Thanks for bumping this old thread, EL. It's a thread all Christians should be sure to read. Paidinfull has done everyone a great service through his teaching on the subject of demons and Christians.

 

[yeshua'sbride]

Excellent thread, scripturally sound. Many thanks to Paidinfull and all who have contributed.

 

[GoldenEagle]

I’ve read this thread with great interest.
I need to read and pray about it more times and will also look at the CIC links.
I said elsewhere recently that a good number of years ago I came out of NAR and Word of Faith, and am still sorting through the wheat from the chaff in some areas. Well, during that time I was quite heavily involved with deliverance ministry from both sides too. Those teachings and the practices caused a lot of damage in my life and it cost a high price walking away from it.
But this thread is the first time I’ve been exposed to mature believers who think ALL deliverance ministry for Christian’s is wrong and unscriptural and at present I ‘feel’ uncomfortable with this. It goes against my personal experience...which I ‘get’ is a large part of the point of this thread.
It’s hard when you’ve been brought up as a Christian with very strong false teachings that have become deeply ingrained. I understand that.
I think this thread is making me uncomfortable because it’s going into what for me is new ground which up till now I’ve been at peace with....I’m not sure what I’m trying to say...I’ve had to trust God heavily in my life, making some very difficult decisions, leaving more than one situation where I was told, and it was said about me I was operating in witchcraft and rebellion by leaving. And yet looking back, I believe I can see God’s hand, provision and protection. For me, there’s something about this thread, whilst I can see and agree with many things, I don’t yet agree with everything. Because ...I think it’s because it challenges how I personally walk and have walked with God and am led by God...which I take incredibly seriously. And I’m not a theologian or scholar, but I’ve always believed if I sought God with all my heart, to know The Way, The Life and The Truth and cleaved to the cross primarily for forgiveness of sin, that that was enough. And I have done those things, and thought it was enough and to me that was part of the beauty and simplicity of the gospel..that God could reach, teach and lead me...an uneducated none scholar. At the moment, for me this thread challenges that and I think that’s why I feel uneasy. I’ve never felt like this before when God has shone His light on error..it feels different...which I realise may now be a reflection on how very deceived I am...which in itself is frightening.

I don’t know if I’ve made any sense. Please feel free to delete this post. I’m trying to learn and process stuff and clearly have a way to go.

 

[Everlasting Life]

And I’m not a theologian or scholar, but I’ve always believed if I sought God with all my heart, to know The Way, The Life and The Truth and cleaved to the cross primarily for forgiveness of sin, that that was enough.....

And I have done those things, and thought it was enough and to me that was part of the beauty and simplicity of the gospel..that God could reach, teach and lead me...an uneducated none scholar.

Yes, I believe you are right GoldenEagle, in this. The simple Gospel is so wonderfully enough, and from there God will grow us. It's ok to wrestle, take time to think and ask for God's leading and help. I think you are wise in this. God is so graciously patient, especially as one is removing layers of damaging teaching from one's life. We are all in process of growth in Christ and in it all we have the wonderful assurance of God's love and capacity to preserve us till we come home. My hope was that this would be a helpful thread to people.

This is another thread that might be more helpful to you:

https://www.raptureforums.com/forum...-to-bondage-and-the-gospel-to-freedom.128408/

May God's loving grace keep you and sustain you.

 

[mattfivefour]

..I think it’s because it challenges how I personally walk and have walked with God and am led by God...which I take incredibly seriously. And I’m not a theologian or scholar, but I’ve always believed if I sought God with all my heart, to know The Way, The Life and The Truth and cleaved to the cross primarily for forgiveness of sin, that that was enough. And I have done those things, and thought it was enough and to me that was part of the beauty and simplicity of the gospel..that God could reach, teach and lead me...an uneducated none scholar. At the moment, for me this thread challenges that and I think that’s why I feel uneasy. I’ve never felt like this before when God has shone His light on error..it feels different...which I realise may now be a reflection on how very deceived I am...which in itself is frightening.

My brother, I do not think that there is anything in this thread that should challenge the way you believe based on what you said are your beliefs above. I think that the gospel is that very simple. There is nothing that has been written here that complicates the gospel beyond that. The only point in this thread that should challenge anything you have been taught is the fact that Christians cannot be demon possessed. They can be oppressed; they can be depressed; but they cannot be possessed.

Others who do not have the Holy Spirit indwelling them can be possessed. In fact I have met and dealt with people who were possessed by demon spirits. I believe very much in the power of demons and their reality. And, based on personal experience, I firmly believe in the power of the name of Jesus Christ when wielded by a Christian to cast out any demon in any person who may be possessed. The blood of Jesus Christ has provided that power to me and to every other blood-bought believer. But the point of this thread is that a Christian cannot be demon possessed.

Now, if that challenges what you have been taught, then so be it. But that should not make you feel uncomfortable. Just go to the Word of God and you will see that no demon has the power to overcome the Holy Spirit who has sealed and indwells the true believer in Christ.

 

[GoldenEagle]

Everlasting Life - (thank you again ) I read the link page with the CIC article...and I really wanted to read it and for the ‘penny to drop’, but I found whilst I didn’t agree with the warfare worldview he presented, neither did I fully agree with the providential world view he presented.
At least I’m not where I was all those years ago! And I shall remain open to being being corrected in this area.

 

[Everlasting Life]

Everlasting Life - (thank you again ) I read the link page with the CIC article...and I really wanted to read it and for the ‘penny to drop’, but I found whilst I didn’t agree with the warfare worldview he presented, neither did I fully agree with the providential world view he presented.
At least I’m not where I was all those years ago! And I shall remain open to being being corrected in this area.

You know GoldenEagle, there's been things I've not been ready for nor understood and have prayed that God in His time would help me. Over the span of years things have gradually changed where I now understand, when previously I just struggled. That's ok, that's part of of trusting God and growing in Christ. Just because we are growing in understanding in Christ, however, does not mean His love for us in diminished. I think your stance and attitude to remain open to God's leading and help is wise and I know that God is faithful.

 

[GoldenEagle]

My brother, I do not think that there is anything in this thread that should challenge the way you believe based on what you said are your beliefs above. I think that the gospel is that very simple. There is nothing that has been written here that complicates the gospel beyond that. The only point in this thread that should challenge anything you have been taught is the fact that Christians cannot be demon possessed. They can be oppressed; they can be depressed; but they cannot be possessed.

Others who do not have the Holy Spirit indwelling them can be possessed. In fact I have met and dealt with people who were possessed by demon spirits. I believe very much in the power of demons and their reality. And, based on personal experience, I firmly believe in the power of the name of Jesus Christ when wielded by a Christian to cast out any demon in any person who may be possessed. The blood of Jesus Christ has provided that power to me and to every other blood-bought believer. But the point of this thread is that a Christian cannot be demon possessed.

Now, if that challenges what you have been taught, then so be it. But that should not make you feel uncomfortable. Just go to the Word of God and you will see that no demon has the power to overcome the Holy Spirit who has sealed and indwells the true believer in Christ.

Thank you so much for taking the time to respond.

I do not believe a Christian can be ‘possessed’ and I know some none-Christians who are possessed can require deliverance ministry in order to be able to be truly saved.
(Apologies for typing - have just discovered bold enabler and now can’t remove the slanted writing!!)
But currently I do believe there is a place for deliverance ministry for Christians - not for being possessed..for their spirit is sealed with the Holy Spirit, but I think sometimes deliverance can be needed in the soul or body.

The kind of deliverance ministry described in the CIC article to me is without doubt occult, doctrines of demons and error. It is exalting demons and enabling the enemy in the name of Christian healing and deliverance, to have an absolute field day. And I’ve seen that kind of thing first hand.

But I also believe I’ve seen and experienced first hand, relief from demonic spirits, very occasionally, where it’s been done in a correct and right way. I think this is where I feel challenged because from my understanding of this thread, by believing this I’m moving into experience outside of scripture (like NAR) when I believe God has led me to my current understanding.

 

[lightofmylife]

My brother, I do not think that there is anything in this thread that should challenge the way you believe based on what you said are your beliefs above. I think that the gospel is that very simple. There is nothing that has been written here that complicates the gospel beyond that. The only point in this thread that should challenge anything you have been taught is the fact that Christians cannot be demon possessed. They can be oppressed; they can be depressed; but they cannot be possessed.

Others who do not have the Holy Spirit indwelling them can be possessed. In fact I have met and dealt with people who were possessed by demon spirits. I believe very much in the power of demons and their reality. And, based on personal experience, I firmly believe in the power of the name of Jesus Christ when wielded by a Christian to cast out any demon in any person who may be possessed. The blood of Jesus Christ has provided that power to me and to every other blood-bought believer. But the point of this thread is that a Christian cannot be demon possessed.

Now, if that challenges what you have been taught, then so be it. But that should not make you feel uncomfortable. Just go to the Word of God and you will see that no demon has the power to overcome the Holy Spirit who has sealed and indwells the true believer in Christ.

I like these scriptures pertaining to the power of the name of Jesus. Luke 10:17-20.

 

[AnnieS]

True Christians do not get demons.

 

[mattfivefour]

Thank you so much for taking the time to respond.

I do not believe a Christian can be ‘possessed’ and I know some none-Christians who are processed can require deliverance ministry in order to be able to be truly saved.
(Apologies for typing - have just discovered bold enabler and now can’t remove the slanted writing!!)
But currently I do believe there is a place for deliverance ministry for Christians - not for being possessed..for their spirit is sealed with the Holy Spirit, but I think sometimes deliverance can be needed in the soul or body.

The kind of deliverance ministry described in the CIC article to me is without doubt occult, doctrines of demons and error. It is exalting demons and enabling the enemy in the name of Christian healing and deliverance, to have an absolute field day. And I’ve seen that kind of thing first hand.

But I also believe I’ve seen and experienced first hand, relief from demonic spirits, very occasionally, where it’s been done in a correct and right way. I think this is where I feel challenged because from my understanding of this thread, by believing this I’m moving into experience outside of scripture (like NAR) when I believe God has led me to my current understanding.

Brother, I do not think that you are moving outside of Scripture. We know that Satan attacks us. And is not just Satan himself, but all the powers and principalities, the host of darkness come against us, which is why we're given spiritual armor. But if we have left our defenses down and allowed our thinking to be influenced by Satan's lies, we can sometimes find ourselves in mental or emotional or even physical health bondage.

Now, I will say that such demonic oppression and bondages rarely if ever occur in a mature Christian. This kind of demonically-orchestrated spiritual bondage usually occurs in the lives of immature Christians believers and in those whose faith is weak due Due to a lack of teaching, or to poor teaching, or to a severe neglect of the Word, worship, and fellowship.

Scripture teaches us that, while God may permit situations in our lives for His good purposes, it is Satan who causes all mental, emotional, and physical problems in our minds and our bodies. Faith-filled prayer is the proper answer and cure for such oppression and bondages. However, in severe cases, when we find ourselves unable to exercise our own faith due to the degree of oppression, we need a faithful and faith-filled person or person's to pray with us and over us. Scripture reveals they can even exert authority over the demon or demons that are attacking us in our minds. That is not outside of Scripture. We have the authority given to us by the Lord Jesus Christ: we can act in His name and with His power, for at Calvary He won the victory over Satan and all the forces of Satan's kingdom. That said, however, there is certainly no need for a "ministry" in this area; nor should we be seeing demons around every corner; nor should our focus be on Satan and demons. Rather, our focus should always be on the Lord Jesus Christ. The focus on Satan and demons in NAR circles and in many Pentecostal and fundamentalist churches where so-called deliverance ministries are popular is not of God. In fact, I believe it to be just another trick of Satan.

I pray this helps.

 

[mattfivefour]

True Christians do not get demons.

That is correct, Annie. As has been repeated a few times up-thread, a Christian cannot be demon possessed.

 

[GoldenEagle]

Brother, I do not think that you are moving outside of Scripture. We know that Satan attacks us. And is not just Satan himself, but all the powers and principalities, the host of darkness come against us, which is why we're given spiritual armor. But if we have left our defenses down and allowed our thinking to be influenced by Satan's lies, we can sometimes find ourselves in mental or emotional or even physical health bondage.

Now, I will say that such demonic oppression and bondages rarely if ever occur in a mature Christian. This kind of demonically-orchestrated spiritual bondage usually occurs in the lives of immature Christians believers and in those whose faith is weak due Due to a lack of teaching, or to poor teaching, or to a severe neglect of the Word, worship, and fellowship.

Scripture teaches us that, while God may permit situations in our lives for His good purposes, it is Satan who causes all mental, emotional, and physical problems in our minds and our bodies. Faith-filled prayer is the proper answer and cure for such oppression and bondages. However, in severe cases, when we find ourselves unable to exercise our own faith due to the degree of oppression, we need a faithful and faith-filled person or person's to pray with us and over us. Scripture reveals they can even exert authority over the demon or demons that are attacking us in our minds. That is not outside of Scripture. We have the authority given to us by the Lord Jesus Christ: we can act in His name and with His power, for at Calvary He won the victory over Satan and all the forces of Satan's kingdom. That said, however, there is certainly no need for a "ministry" in this area; nor should we be seeing demons around every corner; nor should our focus be on Satan and demons. Rather, our focus should always be on the Lord Jesus Christ. The focus on Satan and demons in NAR circles and in many Pentecostal and fundamentalist churches where so-called deliverance ministries are popular is not of God. In fact, I believe it to be just another trick of Satan.

I pray this helps.

Thank you - this clarifies things a lot and I agree with everything you’ve said.

(By the way, it’s your sister in Christ!)

 

[Jan51]

I would think that if a true Christian was oppressed by a demon, that immersing oneself in the Word and in prayer would be the answer. If you are not in the Word, you are open for all kinds of deception, and I wonder if getting someone to pray that deception away would help much if you didn't fill that spiritual void in your life with spiritual food.

 

[mattfivefour]

I would think that if a true Christian was oppressed by a demon, that immersing oneself in the Word and in prayer would be the answer. If you are not in the Word, you are open for all kinds of deception, and I wonder if getting someone to pray that deception away would help much if you didn't fill that spiritual void in your life with spiritual food.

Excellent response, Jan! Bang on!

 

[mattfivefour]

By the way, it’s your sister in Christ!)

I should have known that.

 

[Channah]

You are saying one of God's sheep got possessed. Let's put that to the test...

25Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all ; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30I and the Father are one.” John10:25

Clearly Judas was not one of God's sheep because Judas didn't listen to Jesus. He was a thief and a rebel and plotted the betrayal of Jesus. In the end he perished so we can be sure he was not one of God's sheep. We can cross reference that...

While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. John17:12

We have to understand the truth that when Father God gives us to Jesus and the Holy Spirit dwells in us, no one is able to possess us because no one is mightier then Father God.

However as for the son of perdition, Jesus described him as a devil...

Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the Twelve? And yet one of you is a devil.” John6:70

When the church was first birthed there should have been hundreds if not thousands that needed delivered from demons and yet there was not one single deliverance of a Christian and not one instruction for the deliverance ministry to the church by the apostles. What a tremendous oversight by God to not care for His sheep against demons possessing us!... Or what a tremendous mistake by so many deliverance ministers today. The Bible teaches we have One Deliverer who delivers and saves completely. That's why there are no records of Christians in the Bible getting a demonic clean out like so many churches have today.

There are no possessed Christians, only ones that have been fooled into trying to add on to what Christ has already accomplished.

Judas was one of the 12 to fulfill a prophetic role. It was not a mistake and Judas did what he wanted to do just as Satan does what he wants to do and both work their part in God's plan.

Here's what this boils down to: not understanding the power of the Gospel. As I wrote earlier, not understanding what exactly we are saved out of and what exactly we are saved into. That lack of pure doctrinal truth means teachers can come in and fool the church into tithing to avoid Father God's curse and Satan getting at them, Deliverance ministries coming in to set you free, teachers selling keys to success, seed money blessings, Chrislam, unity with Pope Francis etc., etc.

This is very interesting. Tonight within me, I felt odd, very discombobulated and then I knew. My daughter was in her horrible, and what I felt surrounded by evil stuff. I just cried out to the Lord. My question to you when you said no deliverance ministry but what about this verse:

Jesus summoned His twelve disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every kind of disease and every kind of sickness. Matthew 10