Demons in Christians and the worldwide Deliverance Ministry

Everlasting Life

Through Faith in Jesus
Ok....so, many of us are more than aware of these movements (IHOP is particularly nauseating) and the damage that they are incurring. In working with certain groups, without fail someone eventually shows up with a "message" or "knowledge", etc. to share. :twitch

Always I'm on high alert with this stuff and ready to deal directly, kindly and without reservation. In fact I'm very dogged and staunch with this because of the damage I've seen with false teachings in the opposite spectrum of these movements (legalism). At first I was really thrown off because I'd not heard or seen this stuff before and all these people exhibited this syrupy sweet personality while slipping in junk.

Some things that I've learned so far (I'm sure at God's leading and I'm sharing for the benefit of others) is to pray (simple prayer is sufficient) before meetings that God's Holy Spirit would be fully present and that He would disperse our enemy from people, rooms and whole buildings/properties, and those spirits that would attempt to thwart/impede/distract good messages or growth. I always ask that God bring only those He desires to be there.....those who are in Christ and those who may have participated in these movements but God has determined to bring them out, those who are really there to heal, and most importantly give their hearts to Christ. I always ask that God bring the people and stop the enemy from entering as well, so these people can truly hear and make a choice. Also, if there has been a leader that's embracing this stuff, they have been talked to and prayed for, and when they've persisted I've prayed (never in a retributive attitude) that God would deal with this person. There's either been a change or something has taken them else where, removing them.

It seems that this is really key and has helped tremendously, and maybe that's all the needs to be done. :idunno: I know that I've had to be very firm in regards to false teachings at times for the sake of other people, to protect them and keep meetings safe.

As I've encountered this stuff, I often wonder, compassionately....how can a pastor/leaders/groups of a church deal with this? It seems that this is the big elephant in the room that's ignored or sidelined. There's almost a sense that it's just not "politically correct" to speak out loud about this and to directly address false teaching, showing the truth v.s. deadly falsehood. Or perhaps there's a fear in addressing these things in a frank manner.

I've often thought that it would be good to have some short guidelines drawn up for pastors/leaders of a church to equip those leading groups in how to counter/correct in a Christlike way these false ideas as they are introduced.

I guess my point/question is, yes...many of us know about these movements and are more than well educated on this, but it seems there is a need to understand how to wisely deal with this false theologies as we encounter them without damaging tender, growing Christians. In your experience, what are the simple/best/wise ways practically counter this and apply the Word of God where some of us are in our communities, churches, and families?

I can only imagine that some Pastors/leaders/teachers are somewhat at a loss here, and may not feel confident in how to go about addressing these things.
 

$teve

Member
Thanks Steve for your post because it is disturbing for anyone who experiences such an event and needs a strong Biblical response and not man's opinion. It's also clear you are seeking truth so I hope there might be something here that helps. Manifestations like this were the problem Don Basham (who wrote Deliver Us From Evil) faced and in response, plain doctrinal truth was shunted sideways to give space think up answers that accommodate manifestations. Then out of that grew wisdom and logic that was not in the Bible and ran completely contrary to the Word of God. Based on that new wisdom a methodology of exposing and expelling demons was developed which is pretty much a standard model adopted by countless churches all over the world.

It is fatally flawed above all because it doesn't distinguish saved from the unsaved and thus doctrinally it runs counter to the Word and builds error upon error, but all too often that doesn't matter to those involved so long as it appears successful. The result of this success are believers who never grow up into maturity and get taken by winds of doctrine while thinking these deliverance manifestations are the sure sign of a very mature faith. Such is the strength of belief in their Christian maturity that at the judgment and facing hell, many who believe they are saved and mature will use casting out demons as evidence in a shocked request for Jesus to reconsider that He has got their condemnation wrong!

We have to start with first doctrinal principles and not get diverted by any demonic diversions. Taking your specific example, if someone really is a Christian yet involved in serious sin (and I need to disregard the question mark that places on their salvation for the moment), then they will be in a state of mental and emotional turmoil and inner conflicts that seem to set up openings for manifestations. Deep inner truth and sin can't cohabit for long without something breaking and often that is some degree of sanity. On the other hand, the further we move away from evidence of a genuine conversion then the easier it is to live in deep sin and be at peace with oneself while professing salvation. The homosexual debate is a current example with doctrine being cast down in favor of a one sided view of the love of God.

Now there are enough issues in your problem case to set up openings for manifestations but when you add into the mix a history of depression, anxiety and perhaps medications then a lot can happen and in my experience... it often does happen and especially so in these last days. We are moving into a period immediately prior to the great delusion when manifestations will convince the world to reject Jesus.

I had lunch with David Ravenhill some time after manifestations were breaking out in Brownsville and he wasn't sure what to do about it. David was preaching and it was nothing to do with calling down the Holy Spirit when weird things began to happen. Questions were asked, is this just people doing this, or is it demons, or is it God and in your case the first two questions apply. In your situation I'd have to say there are too many if's and concerns for me to give emphatic answers without first hand knowledge but if someone is playing with strange fire (sin) and a demon takes advantage of the situation, then really it is par for the course. Was it an indwelling demon? I don't know because I don't know if she was truly saved. Was it a passing demon affecting her in a similar capacity to its ability to tempt or hit emotional buttons without entering the body? Sure could be. It was in any event a big wake up call.

John Wimber faced the same problem with Toronto manifestation and eventually decided it was not right to continue the Vineyard associations. But John was also developing methodologies for signs and wonders that opened up doors for false prophets and boy what a mess that turned out to be and then IHOP came out of that. With the benefit of decades of history of these manifestations that leaders didn't have when these things were first showing, we can now see the fall out in doctrinal destruction that has happened. The fruit is not only bad but it's getting much worse and proliferating at an exponential rate. The end times church is seriously troubled with doctrines of demons that exalt manifestations, exalt demonic resistance and power, debase the power of Christ's salvation, take the emphasis off Jesus (often on to the Holy Spirit that Jesus said will never draw attention to Himself), confuse believers and hold them in a state of bondage and immaturity while convincing them they are mature, exalt preachers as great men of God that sell formulas and methodologies to the pastors that reinforce these lies, debase doctrinal truth and put everything from unity to manifestations above it and we are probably one step away from manifestations that are part and parcel with the great delusion.

So what do we all do Steve when weird things happen? I think we redouble our prayers regarding "lead us not into temptation and deliver us from evil". We need to learn sound doctrine but above all we need to know Jesus through doctrine for the terrifying thing Jesus implied when He said," I never knew you" is it is the equivalent of Him saying, "You never knew Me".

Thanks for the input. I'm glad at the outset you admit that you can't diagnose the situation because it would probably be very difficult at best on a forum, and correctly, with the limited facts you or anyone else know etc. But anyway, as I mentioned, I wasn't looking for the encounter and I have not sought for it since. I'm also very aware of the Brownsville / Toronto movements as I (and the person I spoke about in the post) use to attend these churches. We have long since discovered the false error of these movements and doctrines years ago. To be clear, I am not building any doctrine around this experience only to share what happened. The doctrine I believe, and completely believe in, is the simplicity of the gospel of grace, salvation by faith alone in the finished work of Christ of which I stand (Eg: Ephesians 1:13, 2:8,9; Romans 8:38; Colossians 2:13,14; John 1:12, 3:16, 3:36; Romans 5:1,2, 10:9,10; Galatians 2:16; 1 John 5:12,13).

You keep reiterating Matthew 7:21-23? Are you suggesting that I fall into this cohort given what I posted and my understanding of the event, or are you referring to any false teachers and doctrines involved in these ministries?
 

Patiently...

Well-Known Member
I've been a Christian for 43 years and I have never heard a sermon on this.
Maybe a lot of us haven't.
That could be one reason the deliverance ministry took off. There hasn't been enough teaching that is based on the truth of the bible so this false teaching "sounds" right to those who are new or haven't read their bibles on their own.
I have always known a Christian cannot be posessed, but again in my experience I haven't heard any teaching on oppression either. Preachers I've had basically ignore this also. If we are to be victorious against the enemy why aren't we being equipped for the battle?
I always pray for help against the enemy. I've been told a few times from other Christians you need to rebuke the demon aloud in the name of Jesus. I have never done this. I never heard any other Christian do this personally.
I have eagerly watched this thread. It has been absorbing and wonderful teaching.
Maybe you could expand on Christian oppression?
 

paidinfull

Well-Known Member
You keep reiterating Matthew 7:21-23? Are you suggesting that I fall into this cohort given what I posted and my understanding of the event, or are you referring to any false teachers and doctrines involved in these ministries?

I think you handled it really well and see no danger of you edging towards being a reprobate. Think of my background, if there is any finger pointing then I first point at me!

Each of us needs to be on our guard and do as the Bible says... 5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? 2 Cor.13:5

At the judgment many will think they have Jesus Christ in them only to find it was another spirit. If we veer off the Word but think we are going in the right direction because we see "God's confirmations" in miracles or the deliverance ministry or prophesy, but all the time we are building doctrines that are extra-Biblical (going beyond what is written) to move us away from the simplicity in Christ, or are downright in opposition to true doctrine, then we are in the gravest of dangers while thinking we are at the cutting edge of heaven but in reality, we are on the edge of hell.

But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ. 2 Cor.11:3
 

paidinfull

Well-Known Member
I guess my point/question is, yes...many of us know about these movements and are more than well educated on this, but it seems there is a need to understand how to wisely deal with this false theologies as we encounter them without damaging tender, growing Christians. In your experience, what are the simple/best/wise ways practically counter this and apply the Word of God where some of us are in our communities, churches, and families?

I can only imagine that some Pastors/leaders/teachers are somewhat at a loss here, and may not feel confident in how to go about addressing these things.

1 Cor.4:6...

that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, "Do not go beyond what is written." Then you will not be puffed up in being a follower of one of us over against the other. (NIV)

that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another. (KJV)

that in us ye may learn not to think above that which hath been written, that ye may not be puffed up one for one against the other (Young's Literal Translation)

When leaders go beyond what is written and become sources of spiritual knowledge and techniques and methods that falsely prove themselves to be from God by virtue of manifestations, there is a root of pride at work that puffs up against each other. Pride causes divisions and pride was the first sin that brought about the devils fall. Pride was behind Eve's thirst for spiritual knowledge and desire to become like gods.

Unfortunately there is no sin that is better at masquerading as humility or having a million deceptions as pride. Only the Word of God and the Spirit of God can root this thing out. That is why if we come across leaders who go beyond what is written, run for your life.

As soon as you bring doctrinal truth to bear against false doctrine this verse shows that you encounter the cult of personalities and the shield of pride. No matter how gently you frame your words the two edged sword is going to cut both ways - into the soul and spirit of the believer and into the enemy. You can't bring light into darkness without hurts - that's just how it is.

Firstly, I have found the best way is to take a quiet, humble questioning approach, even asking for help in investigating Scriptures you are having difficulty with in the light of what is being taught. A bombastic confrontational approach tends to make people dig their heels in and cling to personalities rather than encouraging them to be noble Bereans. However even making progress in this seldom works because it is like stretching an elastic band - you come back to the topic a few weeks later and everything is back to where it was.

To counter this I support anything that I say with a letter full of Scriptures and explanations and fortunately you don't have to invent the wheel as there are good resources on the Internet. How lengthy a discourse you compose depends on how mature they are and how hard you hit them needs to be weighed up before God in the same way as sharing the Gospel...

21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.22 And of some have compassion, making a difference:23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

If people are convinced you love them it helps so you need time to convince them of that. Bathed in prayer and the Word, this is intense spiritual warfare because to give up on long held beliefs that seemingly great men of God espouse is hard. It probably always results in many great friendships coming to a hard ending and separation.
 

paidinfull

Well-Known Member
I've been a Christian for 43 years and I have never heard a sermon on this.
Maybe a lot of us haven't.
That could be one reason the deliverance ministry took off. There hasn't been enough teaching that is based on the truth of the bible so this false teaching "sounds" right to those who are new or haven't read their bibles on their own.
I have always known a Christian cannot be posessed, but again in my experience I haven't heard any teaching on oppression either. Preachers I've had basically ignore this also. If we are to be victorious against the enemy why aren't we being equipped for the battle?
I always pray for help against the enemy. I've been told a few times from other Christians you need to rebuke the demon aloud in the name of Jesus. I have never done this. I never heard any other Christian do this personally.
I have eagerly watched this thread. It has been absorbing and wonderful teaching.
Maybe you could expand on Christian oppression?

Good questions Patiently. The best way to show the power of a light is to shine it in darkness and the best way to show truth is to firstly teach it in depth and then contrast it with error so the flock of God is not "ignorant of Satan's devices" (2Cor.2:11).

We can take any assault on the church and find this is true. For example Roman Catholicism is making great strides into the protestant churches because exceedingly few know what to protest about. The result is some depart the faith and go into the idol cult of Maryology and hundreds of thousands if not millions are caught up in Spiritual Formations or Contemplative Prayers which exemplify what we have been discussing.

You ask why are we not being equipped for the battle? There are many reasons such as seminaries that have embraced hellish doctrines, pastors that are desirous of success and so follow the seemingly successful but whatever way we examine the problem there is one over riding issue: such leaders do not know God. When we dig into what happened at Calvary it is so profound, so exciting and so astounding that every sermon worth its salt takes us back in wonder to the cross so we understand the depth of the sermon. There is so little preaching that leaves one stunned at what God has done that praises burst forth from the depths of our beings and makes false teaching stand out as corruptions of the truth.

Now regarding oppression from demons, most certainly they oppose us. As we looked at earlier, God allows fiery trials to work for His glory so right away we see we cannot divorce demonic operations against us from the will of God in Christ Jesus. The timing of God's view of patience doing her perfect work (James.1:4) is not up to us - God is sovereign and He decides. We can rebuke all we want but if God says My grace is sufficient nothing will change apart from grace growing in us. If God says in a little while He will bruise Satan under your feet, we can pray and ask God to shorten the period but it is up to God. We can rebuke all we want but neither us nor the demon is in control! This is all a work that God allows to grow grace in us, to make us see HE alone is sovereign over all, to make us draw closer to Him, to glorify him, to mature us etc. so we need to work with God and not in opposition to God.

Eph.3:7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.

13 Wherefore I desire that ye faint not at my tribulations for you, which is your glory.

14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,


Tribulation are the real oppressions of the devil and if Paul didn't escape it you can be sure the more we take the Gospel out there the more we will suffer too. Paul immediately fell to his knees praying for what? Revelation for the church about the glory of the Gospel in them!

So when it comes to oppression or tribulation, I hate to say this because as Paul says, no discipline is pleasant for the moment but it yields a fruit of righteousness.

Now if you are referring to some atmospheric oppression, I don't have a problem with saying as Michael said, The Lord rebuke you Satan but my prayers are thereafter directed to God to ask Him to bruise Satan under my feet. False teaching will go beyond what is written and tell you to say, "Satan I bind you in the name of Jesus!"

Got any apostles doing that?

Or, "Satan the blood of Jesus is against you!"

Er, got any Apostles doing that?

Remember the Apostles were at war like never before. Satan had never come across the church before and he was going to stop it with every weapon he had - but we never see the apostles doing this. Why then is much of the church doing it?

Bob DeWaay is a great source for pastors and believers who want to examine current teaching to see if it is in line with the Word or false teaching...

Critical Issues Commentary

I forgot Bob had an issue on demons and deliverance...

Critical Issues Commentary: The Gospel as the True Armor of God

False Spiritual Warfare...

Critical Issues Commentary: False Spiritual Warfare Teachings: How the Church Becomes Pagan

True and False Binding and Losing...

Critical Issues Commentary: True and False Binding and Loosing

How Deliverance Ministries Lead People Into Bondage...

Critical Issues Commentary: How Deliverance Ministries Lead People to Bondage

Ha I'd forgotten Bob had all of these. I was just stirred up to post on this thread but I'll have to do some more reading too lol.
 
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Patiently...

Well-Known Member
Thank you for taking the time to answer my post.
I am happy and content that prayer is the answer. It's the first thing I do in any and all things.
God's amazing power and love and watchful care over us is infinitely more than we could hope to do.
Thank you for validating this for me.
 

Everlasting Life

Through Faith in Jesus
Firstly, I have found the best way is to take a quiet, humble questioning approach, even asking for help in investigating Scriptures you are having difficulty with in the light of what is being taught. A bombastic confrontational approach tends to make people dig their heels in and cling to personalities rather than encouraging them to be noble Bereans. However even making progress in this seldom works because it is like stretching an elastic band - you come back to the topic a few weeks later and everything is back to where it was.


Agree, gently persistent is good, asking for help with scripture is a great idea, sometimes the scriptures are twisted out of context.....I find that inside there is a protective mother hen that rises up inside, for the sake of groups to be shielded and kept from being harmed by twisted theology/scriptures, and always I'm praying inside for God's help, His love...God's been pretty faithful to bring scripture to mind as needed and even providing other people, have been grateful for that. I always check in with good friends who are around to make sure my approach is in love, because inside I can feel intense.

It probably always results in many great friendships coming to a hard ending and separation.

You are right, quite often people persist in their belief systems, and friendships do end and unfortunately some family relationships....because they go their own ways and I just leave them alone (prayerfully) and ask God to do whatever needs to be done to help them and protect His flock. There's just a sense of words going in one ear and out the other and no matter what is said (even if they've appreciated the kind/loving approach) they are determined to continue on the wrong path of a false teacher. I appreciate your observation in this....while it's sad, I just need to know that this is just the way it is sometimes.:(( There was one person, who I felt was extremely unsafe, could not shake a deep disturbance inside and this was a person that it seemed that interacting with this person would only yield abuse.....she was only prayed for (intently) and in time she found somewhere else to go, but not because we were unloving in any way. We were just very cautious.

There has been a few that responded well to the truth and grew, and I try to be really sensitive to God's leading....in fact, now that I think about it, those who have responded well God has shown me in specific ways how to approach them (forgot about that). Awhile back one gal, who had been terribly hurt at the hands of a religious entity/leader and background issues, God showed me in a real specific way that she was like a lost, young, wild animal who needed tender nourishment, that she was not a resistant, stubborn person, just hurt. This was a red flag person for me right away....but, not knowing what God may want to do with this person, God's guidance was asked for (as always) and He did.

She was PRETTY angry about stuff, and she challenged about certain scriptures (difficult scriptures, ones that God had prepared me and others for....He was so faithful and it was really awesome to see His hand in it all!!:nod) and how they've been used in an abusive, destructive manner towards her and others. How well I understood her. :tsk: The tension was pretty palatable for all of us in our group....but when it was communicated to her compassion for her pain, that the scriptures had been used inappropriately and what the real meaning intended was, she would visibly relax and become more open to other guidance. I loved, LOVED that she was feeling safer and safer and that there was healing happening in her heart and to witness God healing her emotionally. It was such a sweet joy to see peace fill her mind and heart.


Only the Word of God and the Spirit of God can root this thing out. That is why if we come across leaders who go beyond what is written, run for your life.

Yes!! This whole thread has been helpful in guiding and directing and removes unnecessary guilt in setting Godly boundaries.


There are many reasons such as seminaries that have embraced hellish doctrines, pastors that are desirous of success and so follow the seemingly successful but whatever way we examine the problem there is one over riding issue: such leaders do not know God.

This thread has been healing to me in that it's validated some things. A church that we left had a pastor that was preaching printed out, purchased sermons of Rick Warren as his own. He even included anecdotal stories as if his own.....we just had a sick feeling in our stomachs about it, and although we didn't know the full extent of Warren's movement we felt strongly led to get out soon! There were some strong, troubling, anxious feelings, here's a leader we are told to respect...but the message was not of God.

In fact, God showed me after concerned prayer (while very new in my walk with God and also in understanding the Christian landscape of our time and processing my shock) in a very startling and direct way that those who persist in teaching/leading/following down these paths are acting as if they are practicing shamanism/sun worship and going down a dangerously potential road of no return. Not only that, those who come out or do not follow will suffer emotionally at the hands of those who do, but God would sustain, strengthen and keep in His protection. Cautiously sharing here out of respect for rules.
 

$teve

Member
I think you handled it really well and see no danger of you edging towards being a reprobate. Think of my background, if there is any finger pointing then I first point at me!

Thanks for clarifying that. I needed to ask because I wasn't sure in what context you were applying those verses.



Each of us needs to be on our guard and do as the Bible says... 5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? 2 Cor.13:5

At the judgment many will think they have Jesus Christ in them only to find it was another spirit. If we veer off the Word but think we are going in the right direction because we see "God's confirmations" in miracles or the deliverance ministry or prophesy, but all the time we are building doctrines that are extra-Biblical (going beyond what is written) to move us away from the simplicity in Christ, or are downright in opposition to true doctrine, then we are in the gravest of dangers while thinking we are at the cutting edge of heaven but in reality, we are on the edge of hell.

But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ. 2 Cor.11:3

Yes indeed, one of the first signs and warnings Jesus told His disciples on the Mount of Olives was to beware of false Christs (Matthew 24:3-8; Mark 13:3-8; Luke 21:7-11). :nod

I think some of those verses you cite would equally apply to the false gospel of salvation by works too, which is another topic altogether though to mention from observations, is just as damaging to the faith.

I'm reminded as I been reading through the additional posts here, and your reply to me I quote above, that we as children of God in Christ, standing on the word of truth, can be fully confident in our Lord to trust Him. This actually comes from personal learning too over the years. Several verses that I'm mindful of with regard to this include:


Romans 8:31-39 (38,39 cited)

For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.


Philippians 1:6

Being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ.


John 10:27-30

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.


1 Peter 1:3-5 (5 cited)

Who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
 

twit

Well-Known Member
Solid and sound thread.

2 Tim 4:18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

2 Thess 3:3 But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil.

Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

Nothing like true Biblical deliverance.
 

WordDivine

Active Member
One of the 12 in the new testament got possesed...

LUK 22:3 ESV

Then Satan entered into Judas called Iscariot, who was of the number of the twelve.
 

paidinfull

Well-Known Member
One of the 12 in the new testament got possesed...

LUK 22:3 ESV

Then Satan entered into Judas called Iscariot, who was of the number of the twelve.
You are saying one of God's sheep got possessed. Let's put that to the test...

25Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all ; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30I and the Father are one.” John10:25

Clearly Judas was not one of God's sheep because Judas didn't listen to Jesus. He was a thief and a rebel and plotted the betrayal of Jesus. In the end he perished so we can be sure he was not one of God's sheep. We can cross reference that...

While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. John17:12

We have to understand the truth that when Father God gives us to Jesus and the Holy Spirit dwells in us, no one is able to possess us because no one is mightier then Father God.

However as for the son of perdition, Jesus described him as a devil...

Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the Twelve? And yet one of you is a devil.” John6:70

When the church was first birthed there should have been hundreds if not thousands that needed delivered from demons and yet there was not one single deliverance of a Christian and not one instruction for the deliverance ministry to the church by the apostles. What a tremendous oversight by God to not care for His sheep against demons possessing us!... Or what a tremendous mistake by so many deliverance ministers today. The Bible teaches we have One Deliverer who delivers and saves completely. That's why there are no records of Christians in the Bible getting a demonic clean out like so many churches have today.

There are no possessed Christians, only ones that have been fooled into trying to add on to what Christ has already accomplished.

Judas was one of the 12 to fulfill a prophetic role. It was not a mistake and Judas did what he wanted to do just as Satan does what he wants to do and both work their part in God's plan.

Here's what this boils down to: not understanding the power of the Gospel. As I wrote earlier, not understanding what exactly we are saved out of and what exactly we are saved into. That lack of pure doctrinal truth means teachers can come in and fool the church into tithing to avoid Father God's curse and Satan getting at them, Deliverance ministries coming in to set you free, teachers selling keys to success, seed money blessings, Chrislam, unity with Pope Francis etc., etc.
 

lynnjcksnjck

Well-Known Member
You are saying one of God's sheep got possessed. Let's put that to the test...

25Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all ; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30I and the Father are one.” John10:25

Clearly Judas was not one of God's sheep because Judas didn't listen to Jesus. He was a thief and a rebel and plotted the betrayal of Jesus. In the end he perished so we can be sure he was not one of God's sheep. We can cross reference that...

While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. John17:12

We have to understand the truth that when Father God gives us to Jesus and the Holy Spirit dwells in us, no one is able to possess us because no one is mightier then Father God.

However as for the son of perdition, Jesus described him as a devil...

Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the Twelve? And yet one of you is a devil.” John6:70

When the church was first birthed there should have been hundreds if not thousands that needed delivered from demons and yet there was not one single deliverance of a Christian and not one instruction for the deliverance ministry to the church by the apostles. What a tremendous oversight by God to not care for His sheep against demons possessing us!... Or what a tremendous mistake by so many deliverance ministers today. The Bible teaches we have One Deliverer who delivers and saves completely. That's why there are no records of Christians in the Bible getting a demonic clean out like so many churches have today.

There are no possessed Christians, only ones that have been fooled into trying to add on to what Christ has already accomplished.

Judas was one of the 12 to fulfill a prophetic role. It was not a mistake and Judas did what he wanted to do just as Satan does what he wants to do and both work their part in God's plan.

Here's what this boils down to: not understanding the power of the Gospel. As I wrote earlier, not understanding what exactly we are saved out of and what exactly we are saved into. That lack of pure doctrinal truth means teachers can come in and fool the church into tithing to avoid Father God's curse and Satan getting at them, Deliverance ministries coming in to set you free, teachers selling keys to success, seed money blessings, Chrislam, unity with Pope Francis etc., etc.

Very nicely put! This is what I've been trying to tell him. Light and Darkness CANNOT abide in the same space! Christians (truly saved) cannot and never can be possessed! :hug
 

Jan51

Well-Known Member
Thank you for this thread. It sure helps with questions I've had regarding people I've known and things I've read about and wondered about, and putting it all together with the Bible.
 

WordDivine

Active Member
The more I reach out on this forum I'm comprehending what you are saying...
So with that being said I am still praying about this.
I was raised in church have gone to church my entire life even during my prodigal son years. I played music in nightclubs and saw first hand demonic possesion and the submersion of satanic rituals without crowds knowing what was going on. I do believe God protected me even while I was in the world and delivered me from that. I am reading the Word again. Sometimes I get derailed because I like playing chess. I really am not into TV maybe an occasional episode of football or Netflix movie. I have seen people possesed in and out of church and always am praying for God to keep me safe. Today I started asking the Lord to protect me from my own flesh and I feel a sense of relief.
What would you say to someone who has been tempted by satan face to face? An experience that happened to me?
 

paidinfull

Well-Known Member
The more I reach out on this forum I'm comprehending what you are saying...
So with that being said I am still praying about this.
I was raised in church have gone to church my entire life even during my prodigal son years. I played music in nightclubs and saw first hand demonic possesion and the submersion of satanic rituals without crowds knowing what was going on. I do believe God protected me even while I was in the world and delivered me from that. I am reading the Word again. Sometimes I get derailed because I like playing chess. I really am not into TV maybe an occasional episode of football or Netflix movie. I have seen people possesed in and out of church and always am praying for God to keep me safe. Today I started asking the Lord to protect me from my own flesh and I feel a sense of relief.
What would you say to someone who has been tempted by satan face to face? An experience that happened to me?

I'd say read the thread a few times and pray over the scriptures for God to give you a spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him, that the eyes of your understanding would be opened so you'd know the hope you have been called to, what are the riches of His glory in you and what is the exceeding greatness of His power towards you demonstrated when He raised Jesus from the dead. (Eph.1:15-22) You fix your eyes on Jesus and let Him take care of Satan!

There are things to pray about and things not to pray about. You shouldn't be praying about whether I am right or some teaching that you need to be delivered from demons is wrong - you should instead be praying that God will help you understand His Word and especially the Scriptures in this Thread so your knowledge of Him increases.

I was a rock guitarist who spent 8 hrs a day in practice and was offered the big time with top of the tree management and a major label recording deal. I've seen what the world and occult has to offer and decided what Jesus had on offer was far better. However because of a lack of good teachers I got caught up in the Word of Faith teaching, went to Bible School and became a teacher myself and was in the deliverance ministry. So if you think you got things wrong you've got nothing on me lol. But God wasn't and isn't finished because you and I and the rest of us are His workmanship and He is the Author and Finisher of our salvation.

You're obviously looking for the truth that sets you free, and if you keep searching the Word and demanding clear Scriptural teaching and apostolic examples for what you are taught, you'll keep yourself and others out of a lot of trouble from false teachers. These are the days the Holy Spirit expressly warned us about in this regard. 1Tim.4:1

God bless you for having the humility to ask for direction.

Oh and btw, Luther was awakened one night from his sleep and saw Satan standing at the end of his bed to whom he said, "Oh it's just you Satan and rolled over and went to sleep".

Ya get the message?
 

WordDivine

Active Member
My encounter with satan was very similar I disregarded him but we had a conversation it was not a dream it was not a vision, it was a literal face to face encounter with time around me frozen.... God protected me and gave me the strength to resist the devils temptation.
 

mbrown1219

Heaven's Stables
Recommended on GOOGLE+ due to high subject matter importance and godly wisdom in these posts.

:praying: LORD, use this information to further Your Kingdom purposes on this earth in these final days of the church age of grace! In Jesus' holy, unmatched name I pray, amen!
 

Pebbles

Member
Fascinating and informative thread. I have heard this mentioned all over the place, including a few times here- what is up with people's eyes? :scratch:

I intend to dig up some hallowed ground that I alluded to earlier about how the church got into the state it has about the deliverance ministry. Imagine this, the guys who think they are in the front line of spiritual warfare are most often shooting their own troops in the foot when they pull the trigger. That's not based on my opinion for my opinion has all the weight of a humming birds feather: it's based on what God declares. Most of the deliverance ministry is not about delivering the unsaved from fairly rare demonic manifestations: it is about bringing ALL believers into bondage and exalting demons when it thinks it is doing the opposite.

To put that in a nutshell they teach...

1) Christians can have demons indwelling their bodies
2) Christians are subject to curses as a result of their own or others activities. This can be generations back
3) A believer cannot be free without specifically identifying and breaking these curses or demons

However even having successfully dealt with all these problems the believer may still be prevented from achieving the breakthrough because demons are continuing to resist them and the only way to win is to sow seed offerings to God. We need to buy God's blessing even though Christ became poor so we may become rich. The truth is we ARE blessed with every spiritual blessing in heavenly places in Christ Jesus.

Talk about bringing the saints into bondage, exalting demons and missing the power of God in salvation!

I grew up in a church very similar to this (and the, "I bind you Satan and cast you into the pit of Hell" type stuff), minus seed offerings. There was also speaking in tongues in an English-speaking congregation; one of the main 'speakers' said she'd been visited by an angel/angels in her hotel room. Nobody ever knew what she said. Saying you thought you were getting sick or naming a medical condition you have/had was "giving power to Satan", and my folks still think that monitoring certain areas of the news is giving Satan power. There was also, "I break that curse!" if somebody joked about their car quitting or something. "Hmm, looks like rain." "I break that curse!" :idunno:

After reading through this, it is more apparent why my family had some of the problems it did (and does). As I said, very informative.
 
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