Demons in Christians and the worldwide Deliverance Ministry

paidinfull

Well-Known Member
Unfortunately a thread that I thought had value for many in Chat (Demonic Abilities) was closed because it got derailed. Hopefully we can stay on topic and discuss this as Bereans and get into the meat of the truth of the Word rather than splash some milk over the high chairs.

Brother Francis has about 30 yrs experience in casting demons out of Christians so his view is that demons can indeed be inside a believer. I would expect that Francis reads this thread as the title relates to his deliverance ministry and so at the outset I would like to encourage Francis and anyone else from this deliverance ministry background to feel they are with family who love them and want to be good and noble Bereans and prove all things by the test of the Word.

When brother Francis was asked to prove from the Bible that a believer could have a demon he responded that we should prove it cannot be so and I think that is good. However it is one sided and Francis or anyone else from the deliverance ministry needs to prove the Bible shows it is possible for a believer to have a demon.

In my experience, many believers get downright scared about demons because they don't understand much of what Christ has done for us on the cross and in heaven above. This leaves the door wide open for extra Biblical teaching that is contrary to the Word of God. The mere thought that a demon could be the resident evil inside us is naturally frightening if not downright terrifying if something spooky is happening. Let's first see what God shows us in the Bible and let the Word speak to us for our comfort and edification.

Furthermore we are observing the occult increasingly exposing itself in the entertainment industry and that attracts the naive into experimenting with the supernatural for their own gain. Demonic activity is increasing in these last days as the Holy Spirit expressly warned and this results in evil days and false doctrines in the church. The supernatural is always a hot topic among the youth in the church and I think it is essential in these last days that we understand the nature of the fight we are called to. So can demons be a fifth column within the believer that we are unaware of and the Bible seems to be silent on? Many believers either belittle Satan and call him a toothless lion or unduly fear him and his power over us, but what does the Bible say? Can witches cast spells over us?

Francis posted "Unless we understand deliverance, then the harm that a demon can do to a Christian will last till they die! Then that demon will seek a new host." That is a frightening statement to make after 30 yrs of ministry so we need to ask, is it the Gospel truth?

I first got involved with the deliverance ministry almost 40 yrs back so I was in the same camp as Francis because as a 20 yr old seeking God I wanted to go all out for Jesus and where I lived gave me little choice between the church asleep and the church trying to be on fire and making all the mistakes it's possible to make. Hopefully this thread can help others not make the same mistakes and deepen their faith and wonder in Christ.
 

paidinfull

Well-Known Member
We have to be realistic about how life works...

1) We war against sin in our body or our members and the sin nature wars against the spirit. The good that we want to do is often turned into the sin we don't want to do. It's a dirty war with a fifth column inside our flesh that Paul referred to as his vile body and he said there was no good thing in him (meaning the weakness of his flesh).

2) Notwithstanding the above, We are sanctified (set apart as holy) the moment we are saved, but that sanctification process continues until our last breath with the goal of Christ being fully formed in us. We are God's workmanship and He watches over us with the microscopic care that would drive a scientist mad. He tries to get us to grasp something of this when He says He counts every hair, counts every step, counts the number of times we sit down and stand up, counts the times we go out and return, knows our thoughts and the words before we speak them and His thoughts towards us are more than the sands on the shore. He even has our names on the palms of His nail pierced hands!

There couldn't be a clearer dichotomy or greater diametrical opposition than between the forces of darkness and light in us and around us and yet therein lies the rub, for it is easy to use experience as a arbiter over the Word of God and draw false conclusions about why life works out in the way it does. I know, because I'm an expert in screwing up but along with grey hairs comes wisdom when you keep seeking God and testing it by the Bible.

It's easy to see why blame is attached to a demon inside a Christian as the reason for the sin nature raging against the Spirit of holiness. And if a demon can be resident inside us, it makes no sense to think we will not be subject to the powers of the occult against us when some witch sends out curses against us. But it gets even more messy with teachings that the curse in our life is because of occult involvement by family members generations ago and that means some of us get free if we know the sages who can look into the spiritual realm and tell us what has gone on in past lives of others. Now we are getting real messy and preaching on the reach of evil while completely missing the reach of God in Christ. You see, where sin abounds grace super abounds. There is no balance in this war. It is not two almost equal forces opposing each other. The victory Christ won for us is so vast and He is exalted so high that the Bible struggles with mere human words.

Most of the confusion is cleared up if we do as we are instructed and fix our eyes on Jesus the author and finisher of our faith instead of looking back as we are instructed not to do. We have to forget the things that were before for a reason - they have no power over us. We have to lay hold of that for which Christ laid hold of us, the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. The more we do that, the more we end up starving sin and demons of the attention they crave.
 
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iSong6:3

Well-Known Member
I'm unclear what you believe is the Bible's stance on the issue of demons dwelling in believers, paidinfull. Can you tell us, please? :hat:
 

paidinfull

Well-Known Member
So let's consider the Words of Jesus. "You will know the truth and the truth will set you free... if the Son sets you free you will be free indeed" Jn.8:31-36. We are not just set free like a prisoner from jail, but we given a degree of freedom that is beyond comparison. We are not escaped convicts rescued from the pit, but we are made kings and priests before God. We understand that we are sanctified by the truth and the Word is truth, so we must gain knowledge of the truth only by the Word of God and not by interpreting experiences.

The church is full of experiences that are wayward and from these experiences comes extra Biblical doctrines that twist the Word out of context to justify belief structures. Young people look at so called men of God with great followings and don't have the pastoral protection and instruction to expose error and are sucked into what seems to be the power of God.

Many will come to Jesus on the last day and find they face hell while calling out to Him , Lord, Lord. They cite the prophesies and miracles and demons they cast out of people are demonstrating their salvation but Jesus replies, Depart from me you workers of iniquity for I never knew you. According the Jesus, many in the deliverance ministry and the signs and wonder teachings are going 180 degrees in the wrong direction. So it might pay well to see how this developed from experience to practice to doctrine instead of from Biblical doctrine to practice to experience.

Gal.4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free. 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

Make a note of that, Christ's words are coming true and we are truly free indeed!
 
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paidinfull

Well-Known Member
The question regarding the possibility for the indwelling of demons inside a believer is clear if we understand what the Jews understood by the following verse. This is why is starts out with a shocked exclamation.. What? Don't you know? Your body is THE temple of the Holy Spirit which is in you! You got Him from God! You are not your own!

For you are (right now) bought with a price. Because of all of this, glorify God IN YOUR BODY and in your spirit, which are God's. (1Cor.6:19-20)

Now here is the problem for us non Jews. We tend to read it like this: Don't you know your body is like a church building? Many if not most of us have experienced or seen messy things happen in church and it can be a free for all at times in some churches. But it was not so in the temple of God.

The Levites were in charge of the temple and only the holy things of God were allowed inside. If the unclean animal or person was to mistakenly enter the temple they didn't usher them back outside. No! They took a sword and took the life of the unclean thing. You don't mess with the temple of God.

However we don't have a Levite guarding the temple. We have the Holy Spirit and just to be absolutely sure that this is a completed and finished deal, the door is sealed forever by Him. We are commanded to glorify God in our bodies but that would be impossible if demons were in the temple of God. It would be impossible to be truly free indeed if we had demons that secretly held us in bondage. It would be a worthless statement that we are owned by God and are His temple indwelled by God himself yet He allows demons to shack up in some corner of His temple.

Never! What? Don't you know? It's impossible!

We give no room to the devil (http://www.biblestudytools.com/ephesians/4-27-compare.html ) nor make provision for the flesh (Rom.13:14), yet this doctrine of demons in believers and hidden curses holding in bondage flies right in the face of the Word of God that tells us we are instantly translated from the power of darkness and brought into the kingdom of His dear Son when we were saved.

We are saved. Completely and utterly saved. Saved from the wrath of God and from the power of sin. Saved from the rule of Satan through sin and death. And that's why there is not one example of a believer having a demon cast out of them in the NT or confessions for breaking of curses.

So how did the church get caught up in this doctrine of demons that gets believers to look back at their past life instead of forgetting the things that are before, and focusing on demons even for a while instead of keeping our eyes fixed on Jesus?
 
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iSong6:3

Well-Known Member
:preach Excellent!! :bible:

I need to leave for the night (morning.) Thanks for your quick and Biblically solid response. See you tomorrow, God willing. :hat:
 

paidinfull

Well-Known Member
Now I'm honestly just wondering what you hope to achieve in re-opening this topic. :thinking:

I think you will find there are a lot of views on this topic because there is so much misinformation in the church regarding the power of demons over and inside believers. There are fortunes being made from books and DVD's that offer the keys to spiritual freedom and the breaking of curses and more and more who are coming to faith in Christ have dabbled in the occult. They are vulnerable to this deliverance and curse breaking industry. Others are afraid of what evil can befall them as per the other thread.

Answering these questions protects from falling into the twofold trap Jesus warned about by 1) being deceived about deliverance from demons but much more importantly is 2) when Jesus said, I never knew you. Knowing God by understanding what He has done for us kills all of these questions about demons and curses and breakthroughs and put the focus on God, not us and not on demons.

There are spectacular demonstrations of demons coming out of believers that fool the naive. Jesus warned that many will come to Him calling Him Lord, Lord and one of the things they cite as being proof of being saved is the casting out of demons... Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? Matt.7:22

When Jesus uses the term "many" it's a cause for major concern and one worth dealing with.
 

Kris762

Well-Known Member
Haven't put much thought into this topic, so I'm simply making a lightly educated opinion based on my understanding of the Bible.

I believe we are all subjected to demonic attacks, be it through temptation or what have you. Jesus Christ, our flawless Father and King was tempted, why would we believers be exempt? The OT which I'm currently re-reading has accounts of a followers faith being tested. Accounts of ones faith being tested or attacked are too numerous to repeat.

In each of us God allows free-will, we decide to give into temptation or repel it, reject it. With free-will we decide to love our Creator or deny Him. God allows us to make a choice, it's the only way one can truly love the Lord our God and Savior Jesus Christ. I believe the devils permitted existence is also a means through which we can consistently display our loyalty to our God if that makes any sense.
With each and every battle we come out of victorious, it gives glory to our Father, not forgetting that only in Him can we ever be victorious in the first place. With each victory over the devil we only grow stronger in Christ.

As a believer in Jesus, I'm only too aware that I'm tested day in and day out. I'm consistently given opportunity to express my love for Christ by rejecting evil and battling it tooth and nail at times, by resisting the devils advances. I also believe a true believer cannot ever be subjected to a full demonic possession because of the indwelling spirit of Christ.

As followers of Christ I also believe we are subjected to demonic attacks more-so than those who welcome them with open arms. The devil undoubtedly relishes any opportunity in his deluded and despicable mind to bring us low, to humiliate and embarrass us in his futile attempt to defy God and prove his point that we weren't worth saving to begin with. This is why it's so important that we resist and turn to Christ for strength in times of weakness, ask for deliverance and victory in His name, it gives us opportunity to give glory to God.

I don't believe a satanic power can remove Christ's spirit in us through possession, otherwise what was the point of the Cross? I believe we are subjected to fleeting attacks as I've tried to explain, but the possibility of evil spirits pushing the indwelling Holy spirit out and taking up residence on a permanent basis I must reject.
 
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paidinfull

Well-Known Member
So I'll go on a little bit more and explain some of my background. I don't really know when I was saved. About 8 yrs old I was invited into a caravan to watch this movie about Jesus and I made a confession then. I think God may have taken me at my word there and then although I didn't really understand much about it all. As I got a little older I had this belief that Christians were God's warriors (no idea how I got that) and I didn't know if it was possible to be a Christian or if they were like angels, but when I met one I was going to ask if i could become a Christian.

That opportunity came when I was 12 and I had to run the length of a football pitch to catch a children's ministry before they left for the day and I blurted out, I want to become a Christian. I didn't have any personal follow up so I didn't know how to grow and when friends pointed out that I was as bad as they were when I told them I was a Christian I stalled. Then at 16 it all happened, bawling my eyes out in my bedroom and it was as if Jesus was on the cross in my room and I knew it should have been me on the cross.

Then a few months later this hippy type that I had never talked to invited me to come and study the Bible with him. It seemed real strange to me so I brought my guitar with me as it went everywhere with me including to bed. We arranged to meet the following week and he said, Oh, don't bring your guitar." Well after a few weeks something happened: the Bible came alive and I couldn't put it down.

Long story short: this led to 4 of us deciding to go witness to the lost late at night because they never hear the Gospel. My home town was given the title of sin city by a UK newspaper after it considered 200 towns and cities. At night it was a hotbed of gang and terrorist violence and confrontations with witches and demons just happened.

It's important to know that I was a wanted man by a lot of gangs because I lived in the wrong side of town. I was a prod going into IRA territory and there was no guarantee we'd get home alive each night. This was my first face to face contest with demonic manifestations and what I knew about demons was pretty close to one sentence. But there's the deal: the demons knew the truth and Jesus knew the truth and that made up for me not knowing. I kid you not, I had an angel push me out of the way of a bullet and picking a witch up and moving him away as he tried to kill me. 3 or 4 times he was floating backwards unable to touch me but he just kept running at me when he was put down. There are many stories to tell. The local Pentecostal minister stopped me one day and asked if I was one of the ones going on the streets at night. When I said yes he said, You're turning the town upside down!

Then when I was 21 an elderly neighbor came in for tea and told me about a strange thing that happened to his wife. He woke up and she was not in bed with him and when he went to his grandson's cot she was standing over him choking him to death. When he tried to grab her, although she was tiny and frail, she hurled him across the room. However that was enough to break her out of this trance but frightened them and the grandson was never allowed to say alone with them.

I said I would pray about it and ask God why this happened. When I prayed I saw a vision of his wife as a young woman visiting a medium and this is where the demonic attachment happened. They were a religious couple but not believers and this thing was making some kind of claim in her life. I told him about it and he asked his wife but she said it never happened. Then I described the event in more details and suddenly she exclaimed yes it was so but she had forgotten about it.

I was moving house then to a different town but I told them to go to their minister and explain everything that had happened. I did this partly because I knew he was a good man, partly because I was leaving and partly because I was naive and believed a clergyman knew everything spiritual and would know what to do. However a few months later I was told she committed suicide. I really needed someone to instruct me in these things.

When I moved to the next town I got involved with a fellowship that was sold out on God, and we were getting involved with one of the biggest movements of God in the world. It was WoF except that term was not used at the time and we were under Derek Prince's stream of teaching. Derek had a very big deliverance ministry so here I was, as very young man who needed teaching on demons and spiritual warfare and this was not only the only source I could find but it was really kicking off everywhere. Demons were not only outside the church, according to Derek they were in believers too and goodness were these meetings dramatic!

Boy were we busy in the deliverance ministry and I was getting a first class training. Things seemed so good and just the discipleship I needed. There was one big, big problem. As I say to my kids when I tell them a story, It's the biggest, biggest problem you have ever seen in your lives!

The teaching was founded on experience and pulling verses out of the Bible to support and justify the experiences instead of judging the experiences in the light of the Word of God. That is the difference between knowing Jesus and what He has done and replacing His work with our works.

A demon will do everything in its power to stop someone coming to an understanding of the Gospel and when the heat gets turned up by them coming too close to getting saved then they can manifest. But once that person cries out to Jesus to save them, Jesus doesn't do a little work - He does it all.

So how come all these freaky things are happening in the church? If the Word says we are free and clean and sanctified and sealed and delivered and owned by God and He dwells in us, then how come the circus goes on in church deliverance meetings?

Spiritual warfare is real. But what is real about spiritual warfare and what is hokus pokus? Resisting the devil is real. Evil days are real when remaining standing is the greatest victory. What we don't need is to grant the devil power over believers that he lost in Christ's victory and that is the problem with most of the deliverance ministry that is trying to break curses, bind Satan and cast him out where he can put his hands up and say it wasn't him. But he loves it as much as Jesus hates it and that is why it is one of Satan's great end time deceptions.
 
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paidinfull

Well-Known Member
One of the things I mentioned earlier was the error of moving from experience to practice to doctrine instead of from Biblical doctrine to practice to experience. It's very tempting to get caught up in the sensational and in an attempt to discover what God is doing in it we begin by theorizing and experimenting and then from those conclusions we mix in Bible verses and hey presto God is doing a new thing and we have some kind of Biblical justification for it. The problem is that it flies in the face of Biblical doctrine!

To facilitate the transition many teachers talk about not confining God to a box (meaning the Word of God) or that God is challenging us by doing the irrational because He wants to move us outside of our comfort zone. It's all theory and when it moves us away from the Word guess who is behind it?

If ever you are put in a position where you are asked to accept anything that elevates a demon above the position the Bible teaches, or demotes a believer below the position God placed us in Christ, then that idea will fester into a spiritual minefield.

When we get caught up in the belief that believers need deliverance from demons rather than teaching on their liberty in Christ and calling on God to deal with the sin in our lives, we move away from the protection of God and into the darkness of the Satanic whisper, Has God said?

It is no trifle that when the teaching on the believer being made the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus is barely mentioned in these sensational churches, that the demonic manifestations are increasing. Yes while Bible doctrine is being slated by the likes of Rick Warren the enemy is bringing in a slew of errors into the church.

We saw that the Holy Spirit indwells the believer making us His temple, sealing us for redemption, sanctifying us as His holy place and we are not in bondage any more. In fact... 2Cor.3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

When we teach the believer the truth about righteousness they rise up as a warrior in God and break asunder every lie Satan brings to them. However if we teach them that hidden bondage's bind them and they don't know about them, then you end up going through rituals naming hundreds of sins for your own life and past generations.

Now here is the BIG question... what if you miss one? What if a demon is waiting for you to name it but you missed it and it is reason for difficulties or sin in your life? This puts the believer in a vulnerable position once again.

In the likes of the G12 movement encounter weekend which has been copied by many, many churches, a great list of sins are listed for consideration. Confessions are made for your life and past generations to break generational curses. Then there is the healing of memories and regressing back into the womb. All of this is necessary but you might miss one.

Believe me, a 16 yr old kid could cry out to Jesus and be completely saved and go out and scare the wits out of demons and turn the town upside down simply because I believed the Bible. And that is why learning doctrine teaches you how to hold your shield in position and swing your sword into the weak spots of the enemy.

Learn doctrine family!
 
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paidinfull

Well-Known Member
We are made kings and priests onto our God. Interestingly a king could never be a priest and a priest could never be a king but we are like Christ, both kings and priests.

In the following setting it reminds me of being made a king by Christ. Athaliah represents Satan and when full discovery is made because of the coronation celebrations Satan discovers too late that his prized possessions belong to Christ.

Note the guardianship of the armed priests, but we are guarded by God and His holy angels.

Read this and be blessed...

Love The Lord 2nd Chronicles Lesson 23
 
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LivnForChrist

Jesus Christ is Lord
paidinfull, I think you have done an excellence job! Sometimes we do need to
tackle uncomfortable topics in order to enlighten people to the truth, the whole
truth, and nothing but the truth. Convincing believers that they can be possessed
by demons is big business and there are those making money off of it. I remember
when I first got saved and didn't know any better, they were talking about generational
curses and closing all those doors. I spent hours trying to think up and close every door
that I might have opened. :doh: I had no concept of what Christ had won for me on the
cross (besides forgiveness of sins). I had no idea of all that went with it. I hope this tread
stays open. It's worth it. :thumbup
 

paidinfull

Well-Known Member
paidinfull, I think you have done an excellence job! Sometimes we do need to
tackle uncomfortable topics in order to enlighten people to the truth, the whole
truth, and nothing but the truth. Convincing believers that they can be possessed
by demons is big business and there are those making money off of it. I remember
when I first got saved and didn't know any better, they were talking about generational
curses and closing all those doors. I spent hours trying to think up and close every door
that I might have opened. :doh: I had no concept of what Christ had won for me on the
cross (besides forgiveness of sins). I had no idea of all that went with it. I hope this tread
stays open. It's worth it. :thumbup

Thank you LivnForChrist. You can count me in that too and that's the reason I am posting, that I might save some others from bearing with false teachers who are the nicest and most sincere people one could ever meet, but as one missionary said to me, they are sincere but sincerely wrong!
 

Patiently...

Well-Known Member
paidinfull, I think you have done an excellence job! Sometimes we do need to
tackle uncomfortable topics in order to enlighten people to the truth, the whole
truth, and nothing but the truth. Convincing believers that they can be possessed
by demons is big business and there are those making money off of it. I remember
when I first got saved and didn't know any better, they were talking about generational
curses and closing all those doors. I spent hours trying to think up and close every door
that I might have opened. :doh: I had no concept of what Christ had won for me on the
cross (besides forgiveness of sins). I had no idea of all that went with it. I hope this tread
stays open. It's worth it. :thumbup

I agree. This is an important teaching for some ~especially new Christians. There are so many books on "bondage breaking" and how to go through your life and try to find all the ways you opened yourself to demons and repent of each one, generational curses, binding satan and his demons, chasing them out of your house etc.
I have seen the havoc this can play in immature Christians. I actually wish more solid teachers would tackle this. I have no desire to "take on satan". I don't even have to. Jesus did it all for me. I am hidden in Him. Thank you Lord.
 

paidinfull

Well-Known Member
Enow I am going to try to reply but I'm not sure of some of your meanings so if I miss your point please help me to get to it.

Paul's concern was that whoever was bringing this corrupt teaching or savior or other spirit or gospel was someone that believers would bear with. 4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

That's the problem for the church - we are too tolerant and forgiving of false teachers. We fill in the gaps in their meanings that are unclear because we hope the best in them instead of pressing the point for clarity. God wants us to grow up in the Word so that...

Eph.4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

How do we do that? One vital way is to understand the doctrine of righteousness and become skilled in that because then we understand who we are in Christ, what God has given us and how we are hid in Christ in God....

Heb.5:11Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing. 12For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. 13For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. 14But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Believing false teaching doesn't necessarily mean hypocrisy, it can just be a fact that we were deceived because we can't discern good from evil. We don't know the simplicity of our salvation and someone came along and sounded all super spiritual by over complicating how to be free in Christ when it's already won, done and dusted.

And departing the faith doesn't mean you have lost your salvation. It just means you have lost your inheritance here and made shipwreck of your faith. Paul handed Hymenaeus and Alexander over to Satan for correction that they may learn not to blaspheme.

1 Tim. 1:18b war a good warfare; 19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:

20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

Much of the teaching on deliverance is totally contrary to the doctrine of righteousness and has complicated lengthy rituals whereby you must identify and break specific demonic bonds and curses not only in your life but also before you were born and then in previous generations.

This is why Francis erroneously believes (as I did) that a believer can be held in bondage by demons all their life and only be set free upon death unless they are delivered from that demons power. Demons will live up to that teaching and present all kinds of manifestations to support the lie that when a believer is sealed by the Holy Spirit it means very little in this life because a demon can have the upper hand against God and God only wins on death unless someone steps up in the place of Christ and delivers them in Jesus name!

If we formulate doctrine based on experiences like this rather than demanding demons bow to the Word of God and Christ in us, then there is no stopping the errors that creep in.

From errors in the deliverance ministry Derek Prince went on to lead the shepherding movement which did tremendous damage across the world and shipwrecked many people, many of whom I knew. Derek later repented but by that time there were a number of suicides. The teachings of Don Basham and Derek Prince regarding deliverance have become close to standardized practices around the world where they taught that believers could have demons.

The answer was not to teach believers how they were free in Christ as the apostles taught but rather to put believers through a procedure that psychologically was guaranteed to get people to think they could have a demon.
 

Any Minute

Tetelestai !!
I won’t add my 2 cents to this thread because it’s not something I have personally partaken in (Deliverance Ministry). I’m somewhat familiar with it, as it seems to go hand in hand with other misunderstood or wrongly taught doctrine, these teachers rarely only miss the mark with this topic alone.

Wasn’t sure where the OP was going but your subsequent posts have made it clear. Joining others in appreciation of your posts, especially in the manner and “tone” used.
 
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