Current Prophets?

[changedheart]

I don't know if I an allowed to mention a specific 'pastor's name or not.

My dad, stepmother and step sister have sent me a second link this evening regarding the pre-trib rapture lie. If I am allowed, it is someone interviewing Dr. Michael Brown. I never heard of him before. But I find myself highly agitated hearing about current prophets. Right now they are talking about 'prophets' prophesying about Trump's 2020 win.

I want to stop listening because just them talking about prophets alone makes me think it is a bunch of bunk but I told them I would watch it. The men in the interview felt that even though occasionally some 'prophets' get things wrong basically good for them for having the courage to speak up.

Biblical prophets are NEVER wrong.

Can anyone advise me about this guy or the current 'prophetic' movement? Thanks.

 

[Spartan Sprinter 1]

I don't know if I an allowed to mention a specific 'pastor's name or not.

My dad, stepmother and step sister have sent me a second link this evening regarding the pre-trib rapture lie. If I am allowed, it is someone interviewing Dr. Michael Brown. I never heard of him before. But I find myself highly agitated hearing about current prophets. Right now they are talking about 'prophets' prophesying about Trump's 2020 win.

I want to stop listening because just them talking about prophets alone makes me think it is a bunch of bunk but I told them I would watch it. The men in the interview felt that even though occasionally some 'prophets' get things wrong basically good for them for having the courage to speak up.

Biblical prophets are NEVER wrong.

Can anyone advise me about this guy or the current 'prophetic' movement? Thanks.

There are no longer any prophets as the bible contains all the revelation or words that God has spoken that is relevant for us.

Anyone that claims to be a prophet is either a false one or is just a liar trying to deceive people to inflate their own egos.

 

[Carl]

What I posted originally contradicted what Spartan Sprinter 1 posted so I removed my post. Let someone with more knowledge post.

 

[Tall Timbers]

People who claim to be prophets today are Profits, not prophets. Same goes for those who call themselves apostles...

 

[Purchased With Blood]

Send them back Revelation 4:1. This clearly matches Paul's descriptions of the rapture. The voice like a trumpet says, "Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter." Immediately John is in Heaven. The seals are opened after this in chapter 6. The church is not mentioned again until we return with Jesus at Armageddon. It's important to reiterate that we are already with Him at His return. In Daniel 9:24, Gabriel specifies to Daniel that the 70th week is for his people, the Jews, and for the holy city, Jerusalem. This is the time of Jacob's trouble and not for the bride. I also strongly believe that the 7 days of the traditional Galilean wedding correspond to the 7 years we will be in Heaven. The symbolism of the Galilean wedding matches the rapture perfectly, but that is a lengthy post for another time. You can also include Matthew 24:11 which says, "And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many." I could be wrong, but I think Brown advocates speaking in tongues and many accuse him of being associated with the NAR false prophets. Eventually, they will all need to stand judgment before Jesus, and woe unto the false prophet on that day. I wouldn't worry yourself, vengeance is the Lord's.

 

[RedRx]

I would be very nervous to face judgement day if I acted as a false profit on this earth.

 

[Everlasting Life]

The men in the interview felt that even though occasionally some 'prophets' get things wrong basically good for them for having the courage to speak up.

This in itself is a red flag and you are right to listen to the Holy Spirit's alert.

Here's what God's word says, not man's, remembering that:

All Scripture is inspired by God and is useful to teach us what is true and to make us realize what is wrong in our lives. It corrects us when we are wrong and teaches us to do what is right.

2 Tim 3:16

But any prophet who falsely claims to speak in my name or who speaks in the name of another god must die.’

“But you may wonder, ‘How will we know whether or not a prophecy is from the Lord?’ If the prophet speaks in the Lord’s name but his prediction does not happen or come true, you will know that the Lord did not give that message. That prophet has spoken without my authority and need not be feared.

Duet. 18:20-22

Suppose there are prophets among you or those who dream dreams about the future, and they promise you signs or miracles, and the predicted signs or miracles occur. If they then say, ‘Come, let us worship other gods’—gods you have not known before— do not listen to them. The Lord your God is testing you to see if you truly love him with all your heart and soul. Serve only the Lord your God and fear him alone. Obey his commands, listen to his voice, and cling to him.

Duet. 13:1-4

But there were also false prophets in Israel, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will cleverly teach destructive heresies and even deny the Master who bought them. In this way, they will bring sudden destruction on themselves. Many will follow their evil teaching and shameful immorality. And because of these teachers, the way of truth will be slandered. In their greed they will make up clever lies to get hold of your money. But God condemned them long ago, and their destruction will not be delayed.

2 Peter 2:1-3


Hope this is helpful.

 

[Spartan Sprinter 1]

What I posted originally contradicted what Spartan Sprinter 1 posted so I removed my post. Let someone with more knowledge post.

All good brother, i'm in the same boat as you, i'm definitely no biblical scholar LOL

 

[Everlasting Life]

Here's an article that may be really helpful for you to have some scriptural and historical foundation on the teaching of the Rapture, I've included an excerpt. The first part is a well laid out scriptural showcasing of what the bible says about the Rapture, the excerpt is a rebuttal of some false ideas floating around about the Rapture. The whole article is very good:

https://www.wayoflife.org/reports/fundamental_doctrine_of_the_pre-tribulatino_rapture.php

.........When Was the Pre-Trib Rapture First Taught?

Steven Anderson follows Replacement theologians in claiming that John Darby was the first to teach a Pre-Tribulation Rapture, but it isn’t true.

As we have seen, two thousand years ago, all of the churches were looking for an imminent return of Christ. That was a long time before Darby.

In the 4th century, the Pre-Tribulation Rapture was taught by Ephraem the Syrian (c. 303-373). Ephraem is called “the Syrian” because he lived in that region.

Ephraem is venerated as a “saint” by the Catholic and Orthodox churches, but they would not allow him to teach his doctrine of prophecy today.

He was a voluminous writer. Many of his sermons and psalms are included in the 16-volume Post-Nicene Library. (The Council of Nicea was held in AD 325, and historians divide the “fathers” into Ante-Nicene, before 325, and Post-Nicene, after 325).

In the 1990s some of Ephraem’s writings were translated into English for the first time, one of these being On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World, A.D. 373.

The translation was done by Professor Cameron Rhoades of Tyndale Theological Seminary at the bequest of Grant R. Jeffrey. It was subsequently published in Jeffrey’s 1995 book Final Warning.

It is obvious that Ephraem believed in a literal fulfillment of prophecy, including a Rapture of New Testament saints prior to the Tribulation.

“For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins” (Ephraem the Syrian, On the Last Times).

Observe that Ephraem taught that the saints will be taken to the Lord so they will not see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world, which is exactly what 1 Thessalonians 5:3-9 says.

Ephraem taught a literal Antichrist who will sit in a literal rebuilt temple in Jerusalem, a literal 3.5 year Tribulation, a literal Two Witnesses or prophets who will preach in Jerusalem, a literal battle of Gog and Magog.

“And when the three and a half years have been completed, the time of the Antichrist, through which he will have seduced the world, after the resurrection of the two prophets, in the hour which the world does not know, and on the day which the enemy or son of perdition does not know, will come the sign of the Son of Man, and coming forward the Lord shall appear with great power and much majesty, with the sign of the word of salvation going before him, and also even with all the powers of the heavens with the whole chorus of the saints. ... Then Christ shall come and the enemy shall be thrown into confusion, and the Lord shall destroy him by the Spirit of his mouth. And he shall be bound and shall be plunged into the abyss of everlasting fire alive with his father Satan; and all people, who do his wishes, shall perish with him forever; but the righteous ones shall inherit everlasting life with the Lord for ever and ever” (Ephraem the Syrian, On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World, A.D. 373).

Ephraem believed in the imminency of the return of Christ and urged his fellow Christians to live godly lives in expectation of His return.

Actually, Ephraem the Syrian was not alone in interpreting Bible prophecy literally in his day.

He was living one generation from the era of Augustine (354-430), at which time there was a dramatic change. When Ephraem died in 373, Augustine was 19 years old.

It was in the era of Augustine that allegoricalism widely replaced the previous method of interpretation. Prior to this, it was common among Bible believers to interpret prophecy literally. They believed that Christ would return literally (and imminently), bind Satan, and establish a literal millennial kingdom on earth.

This is acknowledged by church historians.

William Newell said, “The early Church for 300 years looked for the imminent return of our Lord to reign, and they were right” (Newell, Revelation).

Phillip Schaaf said, “... the most striking point in the eschatology of the ante-Nicene age [prior to AD 325] is the prominent chiliasm, or millennarianism, that is the belief of a visible reign of Christ in glory on earth with the risen saints for a thousand years, before the general resurrection and judgment” (History of the Christian Church, 8 vols, Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1960, 2:614).

Henry Thiessen said, “It is clear ... that the Fathers held not only the pre-millennial view of Christ’s coming, but also regarded that coming as imminent. The Lord had taught them to expect His return at any moment, and so they looked for Him to come in their day. Not only so, but they also taught His personal return as being immediately, with the exception of the Alexandrian Fathers, who also rejected other fundamental doctrines” (Thiessen, Introductory Lectures in Systematic Theology, p. 477).

In fact, Augustine, “the father of amillennialism,” once believed in a literal millennium himself. He said, “I myself, too, once held this opinion. ... They who do believe them are called by the spiritual, Chiliasts, which we may literally reproduce by the name Millenarians” (Augustine, City of God, book 20, chapter 7).

The following statement by Irenaeus (c. 120-203) is an example of what was commonly believed among the early “church fathers,” as they looked forward to Christ’s return and the establishment of His kingdom:

“The predicted blessing, therefore, belongs unquestionably to the times of the kingdom, when the righteous shall bear rule upon their rising from the dead; when also the creation, having been renovated and set free, shall fructify with an abundance of all kinds of food, from the dew of heaven, and from the fertility of the earth. ... In like manner [the Lord declared] that ... all animals feeding [only] on the productions of the earth, should [in those days] become peaceful and harmonious among each other, and be in perfect subjection to man” (Irenaeus, Against Heresies, The Ante-Nicene Fathers).

The church at Antioch long interpreted Bible prophecy literally. Antioch was an important church founded by Barnabas and Paul, and it is from this church that the first foreign missionaries were ordained and sent out (Ac. 11:19-26; 13:1-4). It was at Antioch that the disciples of Christ were first called Christians.

Some of the preachers associated with Antioch were Lucian (died 312), Theodore (AD 350-428), Chrysostom (AD 354-407), Theodoret (AD 386-458), and Diodorus of Tarsus. These men interpreted Bible prophecy literally and believed in a literal millennium.

In History of Interpretation, F.W. Farrar observed, “Diodorus of Tarsus’ books were devoted to an exposition of Scripture in its literal sense, and he wrote a treatise, now unhappily lost, ‘on the difference between allegory and spiritual insight’” (Farrar, pp. 213-15).

“The Antioch’s school’s two greatest exegetes, Theodore of Mopsuestia (AD 350-428) and John Chrysostom (AD 354-407), were ‘anti-allegorical’” (Matthew Allen, “Theology Adrift: The Early Church Fathers and Their Views of Eschatology,” bible.org).

Some of the early Christians after the apostles taught a form of dispensationalism. Examples can be found in the extant writings of Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Tertullian, and Methodius. Justin Martyr (100-165) believed in four phases of history in God’s plan: From Adam to Abraham, from Abraham to Moses, from Moses to Christ, and from Christ to the eternal state. Irenaeus (120-202) taught something similar, dividing the dispensations into the creation to the flood, the flood to the law, the law to the gospel, the gospel to the eternal state.

Dr. Larry Crutchfield observes that some of the early church leaders “came very close to making nearly the same divisions modern dispensationalists do” (“Rudiments of Dispensationalism in the Ante-Nicene Period,” Bibliotheca Sacra, Oct. 1987).

The allegorical method of interpretation was invented by false teachers after the apostolic era as the apostasy was growing and spreading toward the formation of the Roman Catholic Church.

A school was established at Alexandria, Egypt, which became the headquarters for the allegorical method of interpretation. Egypt was a place where false teaching proliferated in the first centuries after Christ.

Clement, who headed the school from AD 190 to 202, corrupted the Christian faith by mixing it with the worldly philosophy and allegoricalism of Philo. He taught many false doctrines, including purgatory, and believed that most men would eventually be saved even though Jesus said only a few would be (Mt. 7:14). “Clement saw the literal meaning of Scripture as being a ‘starting point’ for interpretation. Although it was ‘suitable for the mass of Christians,’ God revealed himself to the spiritually advanced through the ‘deeper meaning’ of Scripture. In every passage, a deeper or additional meaning existed beyond the primary or immediate sense” (Matthew Allen, “Theology Adrift: The Early Church Fathers and Their Views of Eschatology,” bible.org).

Origen (AD 185-254) was one of the chief fathers of allegoricalism. He led the school at Alexandria from AD 202 to 232. Though he endured persecution and torture for the cause of Christ under the Emperor Decius in 250, Origen was laden down with heresies. Like Clement, he mixed the truth of the Bible with pagan philosophy. He taught that celibacy was a holy state above marriage, contrary to the teaching of the apostles. He taught baptismal regeneration, purgatory, and the pre-existence of the human soul. He taught that all men, even Satan and demons, would eventually be saved. He taught that the Holy Spirit was the first creature made by God, and denied the full Godhead and eternality of Jesus. He did not believe that the Scriptures are wholly inspired by God.

Origen claimed that “the Scriptures have little use to those who understand them literally.” He described the literal meaning of Scripture as “bread” and encouraged the student to go beyond this to the “wine” of allegoricalism, whereby one can become intoxicated and transported to heavenly realms. Origen’s commentaries contained a wealth of fanciful interpretations, abounding in “heretical revisals of Scripture” (Frederick Nolan, Inquiry into the Integrity of the Greek Vulgate, p. 367).

Another father of allegoricalism was Augustine (AD 354-430), one of the fathers of the Roman Catholic Church. He was exalted as one of the “doctors” of Rome. Augustine invented the terrible and unbiblical doctrine of the inquisition that was used by the Catholic Church against Bible believers for more than 1,000 years. The German historian Neander observed that Augustine’s teaching “contains the germ of the whole system of spiritual despotism, intolerance, and persecution, even to the court of the Inquisition.” Augustine instigated persecutions against the Donatists who were striving to maintain pure biblical churches. He taught that “the sacraments,” such as baptism, were the means of salvation. He taught that Mary did not commit sin. He taught the heresy of purgatory. He was one of the fathers of infant baptism, claiming that unbaptized infants are lost and calling all who rejected infant baptism “infidels” and “cursed.” He exalted the authority of “the church” over that of Scripture.

“Through Augustine, Origen's allegorical hermeneutic became the backbone of medieval interpretation of the Bible” (Matthew Allen, “Theology Adrift: The Early Church Fathers and Their Views of Eschatology,” bible.org).

These heresies grew and became a fundamental part of the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Churches.

When the Protestant denominations (e.g., Lutheran, Anglican, Presbyterian, Methodist) broke away from Rome, one of the errors they brought with them was the allegorical interpretation of prophecy.....

 

[Everlasting Life]

Here's another good article:

https://gracethrufaith.com/end-times-prophecy/defending-the-pre-trib-rapture-again/


And one about properly interpreting the bible in regards to this subject:

https://www.wayoflife.org/reports/the-normal-literal-method-of-interpretation.php

 

[seated with Christ]

I believe in the gift of prophecy is valid today.

 

[Matthew6:33]

I believe in the gift of prophecy is valid today.

There is a distinction between the gift of prophecy and calling oneself a prophet.

The Spirit in us can give prophetic word, thought, etc. Some in the church may even be more sensitive to this than others.

However when us humans start labeling eachother or ourselves as prophets, it probably has something to do with making a "profitcy." IMHO

 

[seated with Christ]

I am in complete alignment with what you wrote, I am opposed to calling self and others prophet’s, rather saying so and so has the gift of prophecy. I believe that the gift has been imitated and abused, that being bad enough, to “despise prophecy”, quench’s the spirit and rob’s people of blessings.

I have heard fake prophecy, some being quite obvious some not easily detected. The Bible says,

“Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.”

That verse there, to me, proves prophecy is for the church today. If we are to judge prophecy then it stands to reason that there are true and false prophecy to judge between. There would be no reason or need for the Spirit to inspire Paul to add this if prophecy ended with the completion of the written word.

 

[usoutpost31]

The issue in charismatic circles was the many who predicted a Trump win but couldn't account for how the election turned out. Somehow that was left out of their prophetic utterings. Then they closed ranks. Some did admit their error, and asked for forgiveness. But many others and their followers pulled out the "touch not God's anointed" card. You're not allowed to hold "prophets" accountable or criticize them for their behaviour.

Dr. Brown is a charismatic, by his own admission. But he was also one of the few who called out charismatic leaders for making false prophecies and insisting on accountability. He is conservative, sometimes his articles are posted here at RF. And he is a Jewish leader who does recognize Jesus as the Messiah. However he believes in a post trib Rapture and has written books on it.

I agree with him on a lot of things but there are also big differences on others. Especially eschatological.

 

[ItIsFinished!]

The issue in charismatic circles was the many who predicted a Trump win but couldn't account for how the election turned out. Somehow that was left out of their prophetic utterings. Then they closed ranks. Some did admit their error, and asked for forgiveness. But many others and their followers pulled out the "touch not God's anointed" card. You're not allowed to hold "prophets" accountable or criticize them for their behaviour.

Dr. Brown is a charismatic, by his own admission. But he was also one of the few who called out charismatic leaders for making false prophecies and insisting on accountability. He is conservative, sometimes his articles are posted here at RF. And he is a Jewish leader who does recognize Jesus as the Messiah. However he believes in a post trib Rapture and has written books on it.

I agree with him on a lot of things but there are also big differences on others. Especially eschatological.

I won't listen to anyone who places the Rapture in the wrong place.
There is absolutely no reason to get that clear teaching wrong.
If one is wrong in that regards , then they will be wrong in other areas of Scripture due to their misunderstanding of when the Church is removed.

As far as present day prophets...
What prophets?

Do they have some special insight to the Scriptures?
Do they have some new special revelation ?
The Word of God isn't complete?

We have the complete Word of God.

The complete Word of God has more authority
than all the prophets and the apostles.


The complete Word of God has more authority than the audible word of God.

 

[mphsmom]

There are no longer any prophets as the bible contains all the revelation or words that God has spoken that is relevant for us.

Anyone that claims to be a prophet is either a false one or is just a liar trying to deceive people to inflate their own egos.

Completely agree.

 

[Chris]

There are no longer any prophets as the bible contains all the revelation or words that God has spoken that is relevant for us.

Anyone that claims to be a prophet is either a false one or is just a liar trying to deceive people to inflate their own egos.

Yep, that is basically it in a nutshell.

 

[seated with Christ]

I disagree adamantly, but will not push the issue.

My reference below doesn’t prove prophecy, I need to work on it.

“Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.”

That verse there, to me, proves prophecy is for the church today. If we are to judge prophecy then it stands to reason that there are true and false prophecy to judge between. There would be no reason or need for the Spirit to inspire Paul to add this if prophecy ended with the completion of the written word.

 

[Wally]

There may be no prophets, but the Spirit of prophecy continues to this very day:

Revelation 19:10
Then I fell at his feet to worship him, but he said to me, “Don’t do that! I am a fellow slave with you and your brothers who have the testimony about Jesus. Worship God, because the testimony about Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”

 

[Chris]

There is a distinction between the gift of prophecy and calling oneself a prophet.

The Spirit in us can give prophetic word, thought, etc. Some in the church may even be more sensitive to this than others.

However when us humans start labeling eachother or ourselves as prophets, it probably has something to do with making a "profitcy." IMHO

I agree. Some of us have the gift of prophecy to help others understand what the Word says, but there are none who are giving out new prophetic revelation from God.

Those who run around saying they have a new Word from God are abusing things. They have caused all kinds of unspeakable harm to the faith.

Good overall summary of things as it relates to prophecy.