Church of Scotland Votes to Allow SSM

Ghoti Ichthus

Pray so they do not serve alone. Ephesians 6:10-20
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-61547729

The Presbyterian Church of Scotland (largest denomination) has voted to allow same sex marriages in the church by 274 votes to 136. Sign of the times. :mope

Usually visit a Church of Scotland when I'm on summer holiday (vacation) in the Scottish Highlands. Now I wonder whether to do that anymore.

It makes me feel sad for many reasons. There are a lot of small places in the Highlands where a Church of Scotland is the only church in town. There will be people in those congregations, faithful believers, many of them elderly who have seen their church over many years move away from a biblical foundation. I wonder what they'll do? I hope the Holy Spirit will encourage them to remain faithful in these last days. But it may be a lonely road for them, whatever they choose. God Bless :)

Maybe the church will split, just like some others have over this issue.

Maybe in small places, the church will be more likely to not cave. If it's like the US, rural and small-town churches are more likely to be more conservative than big-city churches of the same denomination.

When visiting, probably check the individual congregational website, first.


:pray :pray :amen :amen
 

MapleLeaf

Well-Known Member
The small churches could probably go independent if need be. I think the true Church is coming to a time where we will be tested on whether or not we really believe God will provide for our needs. Giving up the financial backing of a massive denomination and the lawyers and tax breaks is a huge ask. I don't want to be cavalier about that. But at some point we may have to take that leap of faith.
 

Bethlehem57

Well-Known Member
We are currently out of our home state staying near a medical center where my dh had eye surgery. Since we were unable to visit a local church in this area, we turned on slbc.org to see Andy Woods preach an excellent sermon out of Genesis. We would have also viewed the Sunday School portion, but we were very tired and fell asleep :sleepchair
Perhaps Andy's livestream would be helpful for you in your situation. Some Christian leaders are thinking that the Rapture may be the next big event to impact the whole world. I am thinking along those lines myself. :sad
We have a lot of online viewers at Calvary Chapel.
 

athenasius

Well-Known Member
I was listening to an old Chuck Missler series (his exposition on Jude verse by verse) at Koinonia House. It's in the playlists section on the KHouse site. I was in session 4 or 5 (there are 8) -- I was in both last night.

and something grabbed me.

He mentioned the Calvinist Reform theology old line churches that are going over to affirming homosexuality start by eliminating parts of the Bible like a literal Genesis and Revelation along with all the prophecy in between. He said there was a progression from that along Romans 1: 18-32 lines where denying Genesis and God's truthful account in the Bible leads to an eventual inability to reason.

Chuck is with the Lord now-- he died in 2018 and the series was taped in 1994,

so he wasn't aware just how far and how fast the churches would fall.

He was making some predictions that it would continue along the lines of Sodom and Gomorrah INSIDE the church. He went off on a tangent about Lot and the time just before the Rapture.

I'm sure it was electrifying back then but now-- well lets just say I sat up, rewound it a bit and listened twice because it was so accurate and I was thinking about the thread we had where someone brought up Reform theology in the Presbyterian church and I was thinking THIS IS THE ROOTS of SAME SEX MARRIAGE IN THE CHURCH.

They cut out the Bible bits they don't want to hear. Even though they know it's true.
And the end is sexual depravity. INSIDE THE CHURCH

What was another eyeopener was the first 2 or 3 sessions, in which he predicted that Replacement Theology in all it's forms was creeping into the churches and would become a major heresy later. It is.

It's hard to believe it was taped in 1994 because if I didn't know better, it feels like he was preaching today.
 

MapleLeaf

Well-Known Member
It is strange watching the schism happening within the more Reformed circles. Like all churches, there is the Remnant there and I am getting the impression they are all flummoxed and flabbergasted at what is happening amongst their ranks. I follow quite a few solid Reformed Believers on social media and some of them are finally having to admit even their system is being corrupted...including the Big Names. I see the term "Big Eva" thrown around a lot. I remember when the social justice nonsense really started coming into the Mennonite circles 15ish years ago one of my closest Reformed friends had said it would never have happened if we had had good doctrine like them. Well, now it's inside their doors too. No one is immune.

If I hear the words "nuance" or "winsomeness" one more time I will lose it. LOL I have to believe there is room for us more caustic Believers too. Well, at least I hope there is grace for us. ;)
 

athenasius

Well-Known Member
I have to believe there is room for us more caustic Believers too. Well, at least I hope there is grace for us.
I suspect there is. Paul could get a little rugged in spots. When I first started listening to the Bible on cassette tapes in the 80s I laughed out loud in some of the epistles. I'd grown up on them, but reading them and then HEARING them opened my ears to Paul's sense of humour. He was ever blunt and to the point.

What on earth is big Eva???? I gotta go for tonight, catch this tomorrow.
 

MapleLeaf

Well-Known Member
Big Eva I think is the Christian version of "The Deep State". It's all the very big names and they're so much better than us regular Christians and they all scratch each other's backs. I don't know. I'm not actually part of "The Gospel Coalition" crowd so I'm kind of looking at it as an outsider but it seems it's more about having connections and being political (church politics as well as trying to turn Evangelicals into Democrats) and they think because they're so famous they don't have to answer to anybody. If you go against the grain in those circles your career is essentially ended. One of the bloggers I follow had so many people call his pastor and complain about his "divisive tone" that his pastor was forced by the denomination to ask him to step down as an elder. I think it also has to do with the celebrity pastor culture.
 

Belle of Grace

Longing for Home
I think it also has to do with the celebrity pastor culture.
I agree. So many 'famous' pastors often come down on the wrong side of issues. Not sure why, unless they're trying not to alienate a portion of their followers, i.e., donors. I'll take a solid biblical pastor any day who does not have another agenda. He just wants to teach God's Word, because he loves God and loves His people. You won't find skinny jeans, black leather jackets, turtleneck shirts, or a cool haircut sitting on a tall bar stool in the footlights on a large stage with this guy. He's a modern day Peter or Paul. Some people just call him Andy, and here's what he teaches :bible
 

Ghoti Ichthus

Pray so they do not serve alone. Ephesians 6:10-20
I suspect there is. Paul could get a little rugged in spots. When I first started listening to the Bible on cassette tapes in the 80s I laughed out loud in some of the epistles. I'd grown up on them, but reading them and then HEARING them opened my ears to Paul's sense of humour. He was ever blunt and to the point.

What on earth is big Eva???? I gotta go for tonight, catch this tomorrow.

I've never heard of Big Eva, either.

Big Eva I think is the Christian version of "The Deep State". It's all the very big names and they're so much better than us regular Christians and they all scratch each other's backs. I don't know. I'm not actually part of "The Gospel Coalition" crowd so I'm kind of looking at it as an outsider but it seems it's more about having connections and being political (church politics as well as trying to turn Evangelicals into Democrats) and they think because they're so famous they don't have to answer to anybody. If you go against the grain in those circles your career is essentially ended. One of the bloggers I follow had so many people call his pastor and complain about his "divisive tone" that his pastor was forced by the denomination to ask him to step down as an elder. I think it also has to do with the celebrity pastor culture.

The good thing about having a denomination's support behind a congregation is the immediate spiritual, financial, manpower, etc. help available when a congregation faces demonic attack, or political/social/legal issues because of not compromising on right and wrong, or overwhelming community need, like what happened after hurricanes, earthquakes, George Floyd, etc. The good thing about all the congregations being independent and voluntarily affiliated like the LCMS is that if the denomination makes a wrong turn, churches can leave and they still retain their church/school/property/assets to continue on as a church. Also means the denomination can kick a church out for straying from the Bible, etc. and the Pastors are still accountable to their Parishioners/Elders and God. And it means a Pastor can freely accept or reject a call,instead of being involuntarily "assigned."

In contrast, some other denominations own all church property so it's harder and more painful for a congregation to leave the denomination and there's a much bigger stick for the denomination to hold over congregations. It also means the Pastors are accountable to the denomination instead of to God and their Parishioners/Elders, and can be involuntarily assigned, such that neither church nor Pastor can refuse without "consequences."

There are so many of my denomination (LCMS) Pastors active with blogs, Lutheran websites, extra-denominational ministry, and websites critical of the LCMS, ELCA, other denominations, homosexuality, transgenderism, abortion, etc. that it's unlikely anyone would even try to make anyone resign over just a "divisive tone." Pretty much the only things Pastors have to act on at the direction of the denomination are apostasy, gross sin/criminal acts, and doctrine/practice that's contrary to the Bible. That action will be in accordance with Biblical church discipline and any legal requirements (reporting child abuse to law enforcement, etc.).

The closest we have to celebrity Pastors are those, whose church service is on the radio or live-streamed. Or those in leadership positions (President, Vice Presidents, Seminary Presidents, District Presidents, etc.), who end up high profile because of their duties/position. Not celebrity in the sense of the Pope, Jerry Falwell, Billy Graham, Billy Sunday, etc. Celebrity doesn't automatically confer "badness" or "goodness." However, celebrity, wealth, influence, and authority are accompanied by both great responsibility and powerful temptation, and can be used for good or bad. Although everyone is ultimately accountable to God, having earthly accountability to someone is critical for Pastors to resist the wiles of satan, continue in the faith, and maintain good stewardship.

There have been some "issues" in the LCMS, just like other denominations, churches, and ministries. Some very public, others very private. Definitely not perfect.


:pray :pray :amen :amen
 
Last edited:

lismore

Well-Known Member
In contrast, some other denominations own all church property so it's harder and more painful for a congregation to leave the denomination and there's a much bigger stick for the denomination to hold over congregations.
Hello Ghoti! Yes I think this is the case in the Church of Scotland. The denomination own the church buildings, some congregations defected over issues before and were evicted from the church buildings. I hope this does not act as a brake on some congregations standing for the truth, leaving and forming independent assemblies. But Lord have mercy, if a person is in a church that celebrates a marriage between two people of the same gender, surely it's obvious that the church itself has defected from the truth. It's sad when most church members in a country can vote for evil thinking it's good, we must surely be on the verge of the Lord's return. What else could happen now? God Bless :)
 

Endangered

Well-Known Member
Two male neighbors of mine got married a couple of years back. I attended the ceremony. I always get queasy at my stomach to see 2 same sexers kiss. I thought about kissing my wife at our wedding. I truly enjoyed that about as much as seeing 2 men kiss made me sick.
 

Ghoti Ichthus

Pray so they do not serve alone. Ephesians 6:10-20
Two male neighbors of mine got married a couple of years back. I attended the ceremony. I always get queasy at my stomach to see 2 same sexers kiss. I thought about kissing my wife at our wedding. I truly enjoyed that about as much as seeing 2 men kiss made me sick.

I refused to go or even send a gift the last time I was invited to a homosexual "marriage." :puke

Maybe now that I don't have an employer to worry about, next time I'll go and when the part about "if anyone has just cause . . ." I'll stand up and open up my big fat mouth, and if the ceremony is going to proceed anyway, then walk out and clap my sandals off as I walk out the door. And if the ceremony doesn't have it, guess I'll have to interrupt or walk out or something else really rude to make the point.

Enough is enough, already.
 

athenasius

Well-Known Member
Big Eva I think is the Christian version of "The Deep State". It's all the very big names and they're so much better than us regular Christians and they all scratch each other's backs. I don't know. I'm not actually part of "The Gospel Coalition" crowd so I'm kind of looking at it as an outsider but it seems it's more about having connections and being political (church politics as well as trying to turn Evangelicals into Democrats) and they think because they're so famous they don't have to answer to anybody. If you go against the grain in those circles your career is essentially ended. One of the bloggers I follow had so many people call his pastor and complain about his "divisive tone" that his pastor was forced by the denomination to ask him to step down as an elder. I think it also has to do with the celebrity pastor culture.
I agree. So many 'famous' pastors often come down on the wrong side of issues. Not sure why, unless they're trying not to alienate a portion of their followers, i.e., donors. I'll take a solid biblical pastor any day who does not have another agenda. He just wants to teach God's Word, because he loves God and loves His people. You won't find skinny jeans, black leather jackets, turtleneck shirts, or a cool haircut sitting on a tall bar stool in the footlights on a large stage with this guy. He's a modern day Peter or Paul. Some people just call him Andy, and here's what he teaches :bible

Now I get it, thank you both. It makes a dreadful kind of sense. It's heartbreaking watching it happen. It's been a while since I was looking closely into all the different forms of apostasy and heresy that are creeping in. It's definitely getting worse.

I remember a point you made Lynn about all the young women like Jen Hatmaker, Beth Moore, and the late Rachel Held Evans all of whom seem to be spearheading the drive towards apostasy within the church via the many women's retreats and bible study materials they spoke at and wrote for. You said they wore old jeans, leather jackets and spoke to audiences of women twice their age who would laugh and cry on cue, with pen and paper at the ready to jot down their "wisdom". It was so apt and so correct that observation has stuck with me.

I hate the social gospel theology with a passion. I don't hate the poor, or those who struggle, but to feed them garbage instead of the pure clear gospel is wicked. Lives hang in the balance.

More Chuck Missler moments from 1994-- so I listened to sessions 6 and 7. Session 6 at the end Chuck goes into this bit here:

10 Yet these people slander whatever they do not understand, and the very things they do understand by instinct—as irrational animals do—will destroy them.

11 Woe to them! They have taken the way of Cain; they have rushed for profit into Balaam’s error; they have been destroyed in Korah’s rebellion.

12 These people are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualm—shepherds who feed only themselves. They are clouds without rain, blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprooted—twice dead. 13 They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.

Chuck was focused on v 11 and 12 but her was talking about the false shepherds towards the end, who feed themselves only, who have no water of life to offer the thirsty, no fruit to feed the hungry. Wild waves he likened to useless action that has no consequence and when he got into wandering stars he really got going.

Lets' just say what he said, fit what you two are talking about. Big Eva.

I had to keep reminding myself he said it in the 90s. Not yesterday. He's with the Lord since 2018. Yet I'm so grateful someone taped him, and then produced this for Koinonia House on YT.
 

lismore

Well-Known Member
Sadly, it has morphed into something quite different
Yes. It has reached the stage that many churches are supporting so many weird causes I have no idea what they are going to do next. The only thing that seems to be a surprise in a church is if they preach the bible. It must be near the rapture when you can go to a hundred churches and find them all off at the foundation.

One weird thing I thought would never be surpassed was a Church of Scotland in Inverness which exhibited a bible which had been purposefully vandalized by members of the LGBTQ community, writing their names or expletives in the margins to show they were no longer excluded: https://www.inverness-courier.co.uk/news/church-shows-lgbt-support-187195/

When that story first broke I thought it was fake news. Surely no Christian Church could invite trans people in to deface a bible! But it was true :(
 

Ghoti Ichthus

Pray so they do not serve alone. Ephesians 6:10-20
Yes. It has reached the stage that many churches are supporting so many weird causes I have no idea what they are going to do next. The only thing that seems to be a surprise in a church is if they preach the bible. It must be near the rapture when you can go to a hundred churches and find them all off at the foundation.

One weird thing I thought would never be surpassed was a Church of Scotland in Inverness which exhibited a bible which had been purposefully vandalized by members of the LGBTQ community, writing their names or expletives in the margins to show they were no longer excluded: https://www.inverness-courier.co.uk/news/church-shows-lgbt-support-187195/

When that story first broke I thought it was fake news. Surely no Christian Church could invite trans people in to deface a bible! But it was true

This is so horrible. What was the Pastor thinking? Where are the Elders, to whom he is accountable? Why are the Parishioners still there? Why hasn't the Bishop stepped in?
1 Timothy 3, Titus 1:5-9, and Revelation 22:18-19 come to mind.


:mad


:puke


:cry



I don't even think it's right to write/take notes in a Bible (or hymnal, catechism, textbooks, etc.)
I know most don't agree with me on this :lol
and many have family Bibles, etc. lovingly handed down with personal notes and prayers inside :smile


:pray :pray :amen :amen
.
 
Top