Church keeps talking about money

[Jojo4124]

It seems you are against anyone having any wealth, or extras in life.

600,000 dollar home may seem extravagant in some states, others, average price.

You can have a nice home, and still give generously and promote His Word. One does not have to be poor to do so.

Since the OP was about church's repeatably asking for money, and taking on debt, should a Pastor receive a salary?

Where in the Bible did Paul receive a salary? Gifts yes. But he never guilty the church into giving like many pastor's do.

Nothing wrong with wealth. But if Jesus asked a wealthy person, as He did so, to give ALL they have to the poor, could they?

It's between individuals and the Word of God if ppl want to go into debt personally. But a church...where is that Biblical? Paul never said to build another church building...he had been a Jew and probably loved the temple...so if it was important for Christians to go into debt to build church buildings I think he would have said so.

Please accept that other ppl just may not agree on this.

I think it is unbiblical for a church to go into debt. I think church buildings are unbiblical. Certainly the temptation of wealth, and greed which is idolatry, started with the catholic church which abused its wealth from the beginning.

Jesus has MANY warnings about money and greed. Sure, be wealthy, but make sure you fit thru the eye of the needle...meaning, IMHO, that if God blesses you with wealth n talent to get it, don't be tempted to think you got it on your own or that it's yours. Like the man who built new barns, he died and his wealth went to someone else.

The church is lacking on warning n teaching responsibility regarding wealth. It isn't yours, period. It's God's. Wealthy ppl, and poor ppl, should always ask God what to do with HIS provision.

Jesus was impressed with a widow who gave all she had. Now that's faith. What if God asks the rich to give all...would they have faith in God's provision? Abraham was willing to give all ...his only son who had been a miracle child. Abraham's faith is raved about in the NT.

Churches who borrow disobey the Word.

Individuals who borrow...well, ask God about it. To each his, or God's rather, own.

The fact that ppl feel bothered about potentially selling all they have and funding the least of these if Jesus asks them too...well the rich man responded with offense as well. If he'd had faith, he'd have known that God would've provided for him. Jesus asks us too...do you trust me THAT much? If I ask you to give all to the least of these, would you?

If churches sold their buildings and helped the homeless get housing n meds they need, etc we wouldn't have a homeless problem. And these are the least of these that Jesus says are HIM ...if we care for them, we care for Jesus directly. Sadly the church ignores n judges the least of these often.

One time a visiting preacher came to a church dressed as a homeless person. He wasn't treated well by the church ppl. When he got up to preach....the church was convicted. Many salvations and repentance that night.

We are told in the Bible to care for the least of these...that the poor could actually be angels.

The church is busy building its kingdom while in general leaving the government to care for Jesus, the least. You see how well the world cares for them.

 

[Jojo4124]

Where in the Bible did Paul receive a salary? Gifts yes. But he never guilty the church into giving like many pastor's do.

Nothing wrong with wealth. But if Jesus asked a wealthy person, as He did so, to give ALL they have to the poor, could they?

It's between individuals and the Word of God if ppl want to go into debt personally. But a church...where is that Biblical? Paul never said to build another church building...he had been a Jew and probably loved the temple...so if it was important for Christians to go into debt to build church buildings I think he would have said so.

Please accept that other ppl just may not agree on this.

I think it is unbiblical for a church to go into debt. I think church buildings are unbiblical. Certainly the temptation of wealth, and greed which is idolatry, started with the catholic church which abused its wealth from the beginning.

Jesus has MANY warnings about money and greed. Sure, be wealthy, but make sure you fit thru the eye of the needle...meaning, IMHO, that if God blesses you with wealth n talent to get it, don't be tempted to think you got it on your own or that it's yours. Like the man who built new barns, he died and his wealth went to someone else.

The church is lacking on warning n teaching responsibility regarding wealth. It isn't yours, period. It's God's. Wealthy ppl, and poor ppl, should always ask God what to do with HIS provision.

Jesus was impressed with a widow who gave all she had. Now that's faith. What if God asks the rich to give all...would they have faith in God's provision? Abraham was willing to give all ...his only son who had been a miracle child. Abraham's faith is raved about in the NT.

Churches who borrow disobey the Word.

Individuals who borrow...well, ask God about it. To each his, or God's rather, own.

The fact that ppl feel bothered about potentially selling all they have and funding the least of these if Jesus asks them too...well the rich man responded with offense as well. If he'd had faith, he'd have known that God would've provided for him. Jesus asks us too...do you trust me THAT much? If I ask you to give all to the least of these, would you?

If churches sold their buildings and helped the homeless get housing n meds they need, etc we wouldn't have a homeless problem. And these are the least of these that Jesus says are HIM ...if we care for them, we care for Jesus directly. Sadly the church ignores n judges the least of these often.

One time a visiting preacher came to a church dressed as a homeless person. He wasn't treated well by the church ppl. When he got up to preach....the church was convicted. Many salvations and repentance that night.

We are told in the Bible to care for the least of these...that the poor could actually be angels.

The church is busy building its kingdom while in general leaving the government to care for Jesus, the least. You see how well the world cares for them.

PS God Himself funded the building of the temple. If God wants a church building HE would fund it not necessarily a bank

 

[Andy C]

Where in the Bible did Paul receive a salary? Gifts yes. But he never guilty the church into giving like many pastor's do.

Nothing wrong with wealth. But if Jesus asked a wealthy person, as He did so, to give ALL they have to the poor, could they?

It's between individuals and the Word of God if ppl want to go into debt personally. But a church...where is that Biblical? Paul never said to build another church building...he had been a Jew and probably loved the temple...so if it was important for Christians to go into debt to build church buildings I think he would have said so.

Please accept that other ppl just may not agree on this.

I think it is unbiblical for a church to go into debt. I think church buildings are unbiblical. Certainly the temptation of wealth, and greed which is idolatry, started with the catholic church which abused its wealth from the beginning.

Jesus has MANY warnings about money and greed. Sure, be wealthy, but make sure you fit thru the eye of the needle...meaning, IMHO, that if God blesses you with wealth n talent to get it, don't be tempted to think you got it on your own or that it's yours. Like the man who built new barns, he died and his wealth went to someone else.

The church is lacking on warning n teaching responsibility regarding wealth. It isn't yours, period. It's God's. Wealthy ppl, and poor ppl, should always ask God what to do with HIS provision.

Jesus was impressed with a widow who gave all she had. Now that's faith. What if God asks the rich to give all...would they have faith in God's provision? Abraham was willing to give all ...his only son who had been a miracle child. Abraham's faith is raved about in the NT.

Churches who borrow disobey the Word.

Individuals who borrow...well, ask God about it. To each his, or God's rather, own.

The fact that ppl feel bothered about potentially selling all they have and funding the least of these if Jesus asks them too...well the rich man responded with offense as well. If he'd had faith, he'd have known that God would've provided for him. Jesus asks us too...do you trust me THAT much? If I ask you to give all to the least of these, would you?

If churches sold their buildings and helped the homeless get housing n meds they need, etc we wouldn't have a homeless problem. And these are the least of these that Jesus says are HIM ...if we care for them, we care for Jesus directly. Sadly the church ignores n judges the least of these often.

One time a visiting preacher came to a church dressed as a homeless person. He wasn't treated well by the church ppl. When he got up to preach....the church was convicted. Many salvations and repentance that night.

We are told in the Bible to care for the least of these...that the poor could actually be angels.

The church is busy building its kingdom while in general leaving the government to care for Jesus, the least. You see how well the world cares for them.

Very long answer, but I assume you believe its not biblical for a pastor to recieve any compensation?

 

[lamonte]

This is just my opinion so please forgive me if I sound too dogmatic.

I like all your comments especially Tall Timbers, my life has been a lot like his when it comes to Finances. It is very hard to live in this world without a credit card and what electronics has done in how we use money.

The Church’s ban against usury went on for 1,500 years after the death of Jesus. Interest is described by the ancient writers of the Bible as a “snake bite,” because at first the bite may seem as a small inconvenience but as time goes on its poison can prove both painful and even deadly. During this time Satan was considered the god of this world. And the Church belong to another Country called the Kingdom of God.

I am not saying I have not used credit, but it does not change what the Scripture says on the subject of usury “interest”. I would suggest reading all the verses on usury or interest and debt in your concordance and see what the Scripture says compared to what the world is telling us. One thing for sure leader like Pastors, Elders, or teachers in the body of Christ should not teach debt is OK. Such brother in Christ like Oswald chambers, Hudson Taylor, George Miller, witness Lee, and many Mission organizations like new tribes Missions avoid debt.

Hudson Taylor said “God’s work done in God’s way will not lack God’s finances.

Jim Elliot said ““He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose.”

 

[lamonte]

Here is a few more quotes

“This would be a much better world if more married couples were as deeply in love as they are in debt

“If you think nobody cares if you’re alive, try missing a couple of car payments.”

“Today, there are three kinds of people: the have’s, the have-nots, and the have-not-paid-for-what-they-have’s.”

“The man who never has money enough to pay his debts has too much of something else.”

“The only man who sticks closer to you in adversity than a friend is a creditor.”

“Before borrowing money from a friend, decide which you need most.”

 

[Andy C]

Where in the Bible did Paul receive a salary? Gifts yes. But he never guilty the church into giving like many pastor's do.

1 Corinthians 9
13 Don’t you know that those who serve in the temple get their food from the temple, and that those who serve at the altar share in what is offered on the altar?

14 In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel.

Paul also wrote in Corinthians that he chose not to be paid or taken care of.

 

[cheeky200386]

It seems you are against anyone having any wealth, or extras in life.

600,000 dollar home may seem extravagant in some states, others, average price.

You can have a nice home, and still give generously and promote His Word. One does not have to be poor to do so.

Since the OP was about church's repeatably asking for money, and taking on debt, should a Pastor receive a salary?

Yes I think a Pastor is more than deserving of getting a salary. This is a man who dedicates his life to serving the Body of Christ by equipping us through the teaching of the Word. He is worthy of Double Honor as the Bible says. I find it so upsetting when Pastors are struggling to get by when the members are going on expensive vacations. How terrible. They should get enough from the church to go on vacations and relax with their kids too.

 

[cheeky200386]

PS God Himself funded the building of the temple. If God wants a church building HE would fund it not necessarily a bank

Exactly, God blesses the church with money to then bless one another including the Pastor. Doesn't all we receive come from God like money? The belongs money to him so he is finding the church and the Pastor when the church gives money for his salary.

 

[Andy C]

Foolish for sure. Why become a slave to debt? It's unfortunate that homes are so expensive. I hate debt and yet in my saving, I'm trusting the Lord will provide us a home without the need for debt.

The lowest amount to own a decent home in some states might be as low as 150-200k. A VERY small percentage of Christians will ever in their life, have that much cash in the bank.

Most banks would consider it a safe loan if the mortgage payment is no higher than 28 percent of your income. If they also factor in the debt the person already has, they might go as high as 38 percent. It might be foolish for some to buy a house when they already have a lot of debt, others may be ok with getting a mortgage with little to no other debt. IMO, its a personal responsibility to be wise with the Money God has allowed you to accumulate.

 

[cheeky200386]

The lowest amount to own a decent home in some states might be as low as 150-200k. A VERY small percentage of Christians will ever in their life, have that much cash in the bank.

Most banks would consider it a safe loan if the mortgage payment is no higher than 28 percent of your income. If they also factor in the debt the person already has, they might go as high as 38 percent. It might be foolish for some to buy a house when they already have a lot of debt, others may be ok with getting a mortgage with little to no other debt. IMO, its a personal responsibility to be wise with the Money God has allowed you to accumulate.

Oops sorry that was my initial response and then I closed my browser. I realized I don't actually agree with those points but the browser had saved it and I didn't realize until after I noticed it was at the top of my second post.

I agree with your point here. I went back and deleted that part that I no longer agreed with after some thought.

I tend to write my thoughts out and then reflect on them before sending. Unfortunately for me, it seems the forum saves whatever you last type unless you manually delete it. Closing the Browser doesn't delete it.

 

[cheeky200386]

The lowest amount to own a decent home in some states might be as low as 150-200k. A VERY small percentage of Christians will ever in their life, have that much cash in the bank.

Most banks would consider it a safe loan if the mortgage payment is no higher than 28 percent of your income. If they also factor in the debt the person already has, they might go as high as 38 percent. It might be foolish for some to buy a house when they already have a lot of debt, others may be ok with getting a mortgage with little to no other debt. IMO, its a personal responsibility to be wise with the Money God has allowed you to accumulate.

I don't even think $200k exists anymore. I think the average home is up to $300k now. It's really sad.

 

[cheeky200386]

PS God Himself funded the building of the temple. If God wants a church building HE would fund it not necessarily a bank

Exactly, God blesses the church with money to then bless one another, including the Pastor. Doesn't all we receive come from God, like money? The money belongs to him so he is funding the church and the Pastor when the church gives money for his salary.

Sorry I had to repost this because I couldn't edit the first one. Wow the errors were just too much. Clearly I need to go to sleep!

 

[Tall Timbers]

I am not saying I have not used credit, but it does not change what the Scripture says on the subject of usury “interest”. I would suggest reading all the verses on usury or interest and debt in your concordance and see what the Scripture says compared to what the world is telling us. One thing for sure leader like Pastors, Elders, or teachers in the body of Christ should not teach debt is OK. Such brother in Christ like Oswald chambers, Hudson Taylor, George Miller, witness Lee, and many Mission organizations like new tribes Missions avoid debt.

In the US anyway, we grow up bombarded with the idea of purchasing things based on a monthly payment. How many of us are driving a car that we are paying for by the month, and we purchased that car because we could fit that monthly payment in based on our current income? For those purchasing a car that way, how many actually know how much they're paying for that car and how much less they might have paid if they'd saved up the money in advance before they needed a new car? So we're bombarded with ads related to easy credit while never being taught about basic financial management... which might actually be a good thing, because fewer than 5 percent of the US population understands finance 101, so if it was taught, it probably would be a poor education on the topic. So we're born into a life of easy credit and we become the slave to our lenders. It becomes a way of life and we know no other way. Much of America, perhaps the majority, are living pay check to pay check and are indebted to some degree. Sometimes you'll hear someone who calls the Dave Ramsey show indicate they don't have any debt and then a few sentences later they talk about their monthly house payment. They didn't consider that debt because they felt that it was the only way to get into a house as the owner.

The Israelites were given instructions related to loaning and taking loans. Who were they not to charge interest to? Other Israelites. If an Israelite came upon hard times and maybe had to sell their land to another Israelite or they even chose to voluntarily enslave themselves to a Master because they weren't capable of making it on their own, what provisions did God plan for those who came upon hard times, probably in most cases from poor decisions? At certain time intervals the land was to be returned, the slave was to be freed, unless the slave chose to be a slave for life. Most of us here are Gentiles. We are not under the law, but there is a lot of good knowledge in knowing and understanding the law.

As someone who reads the Word of God, I understand that debt in most cases is not good, in fact it enslaves the debtor, and financially, makes life harder for that person than it needs to be. Too much debt can push one over the edge, and that happens frequently.

We do have to live in the times and the place where we are, however. Even if you're very good at managing money, how many can manage to save up for and then purchase a home with cash? I read an article just today that indicated the average price for a newly built home is $511,000 in the US. The average price for all home sales/purchases is three hundred and something thousand, but if you want a decent home in a relatively safe neighborhood, in most (not all) places you'll be paying north of 400K for a home. So..... we do the best that we can. Unfortunately, the majority of us are simply not equipped to make sound financial decisions. We don't understand financial issues and what information we've received across the years is more likely poor rather sound advice.

Debt isn't a sin, but it can and will make life harder in most cases than it needs to be. Every once in a while in rare circumstances, it can be a boon, as in the examples I gave in an earlier post.

I Personally prefer that churches that I'm donating money to do not go in to debt. I think that is a bad practice for a church body. That's just my opinion.

 

[Pat]

We need to rightly divide the Word. From a ministry perspective, those who are serving in any capacity (Teachers, Preachers, Missionaries, Pastors, etc.) are to look only to the Lord for their sustenance, not men OR salaries. Salaries aren't bad if that is how the church members decide to provide for them, but the focus of the ministers must needs be to the Lord, NOT the church .Jesus said "Man shall not live by bread alone but by every Word of God." and Paul said how his focus was;
Philippians 4:10
But I rejoiced in the Lord greatly, that now at the last your care of me hath flourished again; wherein ye were also careful, but ye lacked opportunity. :11 Not that I speak in respect of want: for I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content. :12 I know both how to be abased, and I know how to abound: every where and in all things I am instructed both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need. 13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me. :14 Notwithstanding ye have well done, that ye did communicate with my affliction. :15 Now ye Philippians know also, that in the beginning of the gospel, when I departed from Macedonia, no church communicated with me as concerning giving and receiving, but ye only. :16 For even in Thessalonica ye sent once and again unto my necessityPhp 4:17 Not because I desire a gift: but I desire fruit that may abound to your account :18 But I have all, and abound: I am full, having received of Epaphroditus the things which were sent from you, an odour of a sweet smell, a sacrifice acceptable, wellpleasing to God. :19 But my God shall supply all your need according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus.
However, from the church's perspective, we are to make sure those laboring in the Word are compensated physically (monetarily) so as to provide for their physical needs. (As a side note; they also need emotional, spiritual, FRIENDSHIP, encouragement too). Here is Paul's command to the church:
1Co 9:9 For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?:10 Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.:11 If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?12 If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ.:13 Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar?:14 Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.

So, many of the comments above are correct, it's just that we need to see both sides depending on which side of the ministry we are on. The ministers art not more important than the ministered to. We need each other as the body of Christ.

 

[Footsteps]

If churches sold their buildings and helped the homeless get housing n meds they need, etc we wouldn't have a homeless problem.

Actually we would.

And add the problem of having no churches for all the housed to visit…

 

[Andy C]

I think church buildings are unbiblical.

Thats a big stretch of the Word.

Paul did not say build a church, nor did he ever tell us to ride in cars for transportation.

Wherever Christians gather, that's the church. If a big building can hold more of them at one time to feed on His Word, then that is what is to be done.

I do agree a church should not go in to debt to big a huge spectacle of a facility.

 

[RonJohnSilver]

I have read all of the posts and I really appreciate the good advice.

I guess why this stuff really gets to me is because I am very conservative with my money and my doctrine.

It bothers me a lot when I hear pastors and the church talking about needing more and more and more. I start thinking to myself, does God really need the money to do His work -- no of coarse not. Does God need us in order to do His work -- no of coarse not. I think of the great preachers of the past and present that never asked for money but had thriving churches and ministries. Are we relying on our money, ministries, big church buildings, phone apps, and media to attract people or are they being attracted by the unshakeable Word of God that rocks the soul to the very core? Messages are compromised in order to not offend, but are people really hearing the truth or just having their ears tickled? Sometimes I just don't know.

On a lighter note regarding finances, we visited a Baptist church years ago and the pastor started by announcing that he was aware that many people felt that churches (especially Baptist) talked too much about money and giving. He said, "Well, I want all of you to know that I preach two sermons a year on giving, only two, and it's your bad luck to come on one of those two." He was serious about that but he was really an excellent pastor though.

 

[mattfivefour]

As you meditate on the subject of borrowing please remember that the prohibition on usury (charging interest on money loaned) was a restriction placed on the lender, not the borrower. In ancient Israel --since all were "brothers" and "sisters", all being descended from Abraham-- one was barred from charging interest on anything given to another. Loans were to be made out of love, to help the brother or sister in need (Deuteronomy 15:7-11); and such generosity carried with it the promise of blessing from God.

Jesus brought the concept into the New Testament and raised the bar on it in Matthew 5:41-42 and Luke 6:34 when he said to give with no thought of receiving the loan back ... much less asking for interest on the money! And He was speaking in the context of lending to our enemies!

There is no equivalent restriction on the borrower, but simply warnings. First, that by putting yourself in debt you make yourself another person's servant (Proverbs 22:7); and second, that if you do borrow and fail to pay back you are acting wickedly (Psalm 37:21). When God says to us through Paul's pen in Romans 13:8 to owe nothing to anyone, we should not disregard it.

But in all of this, please remember that we do not obey outward laws but the inward Spirit. There may be times when debt can be of use (a reasonable mortgage, for example; whether to house a family or a fellowship.) However, God's guidance as given in His Word is not to be taken lightly. Caution should always be used and the will of God sought.

 

[Matthew6:33]

Well to update, this past Sunday service they did not talk about money. They did mention how much they raised for missions which was about 200k. From what they share, they do have a lot of missions. I have been praying and asking God for clarity and guidance and I have a greater sense of peace now. I still have my antenna up. Maybe it was God's will? I will stay alert however.

 

[Jojo4124]

Actually we would.

And add the problem of having no churches for all the housed to visit…

I disagree but agree to disagree xxoo the housed could have church svs right there where they live if an apartment bldg...we started such a "church" in an apt for the elderly