Christians who believe the Rapture is a Lie.

Jewels

Well-Known Member
Post your questions on RF; no one is going to get mad at you or try to stop you. It's good to discuss these things, Jewels. Just don't post any names or links from the other site.
Okay, I will try to find the scriptures and come back with questions for you guys.....I’m always worried that I might believe something wrong, just because I want it to be true.
 

Jewels

Well-Known Member
*the first question and scripture I would like to study with anyone.
Okay, here is their first argument against a secret rapture....so now I am wondering also, if it is a secret disappearance of the believers....this verse doesn’t sound very secret? There is a shout and the trump of God:
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.” (1Thes 4:13-18 KJV)
 
*the first question and scripture I would like to study with anyone.
Okay, here is their first argument against a secret rapture....so now I am wondering also, if it is a secret disappearance of the believers....this verse doesn’t sound very secret? There is a shout and the trump of God:
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.” (1Thes 4:13-18 KJV)
The thing is: while the disappearance of believers is no secret, the timing of the Rapture is known only to the Lord (I'll use the Bible version you're used to, unless there's one you prefer instead):

" But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left." (Matthew 24:36-40, KJV, emphasis mine)

We know this particular section of Matthew 24 is talking about the Rapture, because at some point in the Tribulation, people would be able to count when the Lord would return at Armageddon. But there is no sign for the Lord taking His Church home. But when the Trumpet sounds, that is the alert that the Rapture is happening, and it happens in a split-second.

The Lord confirms yet again that the Rapture will not be known until it happens in Acts:

" When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth." (Acts 1:6-8, NASB, emphasis mine)

Whoever argued with you about the "secret rapture" really needs to pay better attention to Scripture. They're conflating the Rapture with the Second Coming, and it's a common mistake mid and post -tribbers make.

I'll have more to post about the verse in 1 Thess tomorrow (studying for my exam this Monday).
 
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cavalier973

Well-Known Member
*the first question and scripture I would like to study with anyone.
Okay, here is their first argument against a secret rapture....so now I am wondering also, if it is a secret disappearance of the believers....this verse doesn’t sound very secret? There is a shout and the trump of God:
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.” (1Thes 4:13-18 KJV)
"Secret Rapture" is a phrase used primarily by the PTR detractors, and rarely by its proponents.

Consider Saul's meeting with Christ on the road to Damascus. They saw a light, and heard a voice, but could not discern what was being said. (Acts 9:7, 22:9).

Or, John 12:28-29, where God the Father spoke audibly to our Lord Jesus, and the people standing nearby were, like, "Did you hear it thunder?"

So, in these two cases, when a particular person was receiving an audible, Divine, message, the people nearby could hear *something*, but didn't understand the message. I expect that it will be similar with the Rapture; we believers will understand our Lord Jesus's shout, but unbelievers will hear thunder, or whatever.

Another thing to consider is that, when our Lord Jesus ascended, the only people who witnessed it were believers. The Temple guards and Roman soldiers weren't tipped off that this condemned criminal, Jesus, was out on the Mount of Olives, and so went racing through the streets, only to arrive just as He rose out of their reach.

It is reasonable to assume that, in the same way, only believers will witness the Lord's return to catch away His church.
 

Eric Nicholas

Well-Known Member
The thing is: while the disappearance of believers is no secret, the timing of the Rapture is known only to the Lord (I'll use the Bible version you're used to, unless there's one you prefer instead):

" But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left." (Matthew 24:36-40, KJV, emphasis mine)

We know this particular section of Matthew 24 is talking about the Rapture, because at some point in the Tribulation, people would be able to count when the Lord would return at Armageddon. But there is no sign for the Lord taking His Church home. But when the Trumpet sounds, that is the alert that the Rapture is happening, and it happens in a split-second.

The Lord confirms yet again that the Rapture will not be known until it happens in Acts:

" When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth." (Acts 1:6-8, NASB, emphasis mine)

Whoever argued with you about the "secret rapture" really needs to pay better attention to Scripture. They're conflating the Rapture with the Second Coming, and it's a common mistake mid and post -tribbers make.

I'll have more to post about the verse in 1 Thess tomorrow (studying for my exam this Monday).
Best to you on your exam.
 

Eric Nicholas

Well-Known Member
Yes, I agree with the above from Sojo and Cavalier. It's a phrase (secret rapture) made up to try and sour or make silly the pretribulation rapture. It's really that simple when it comes right down to it. Wouldn't it be just grand to assume a reality and believe it? That's basically what they do in the long game of it all. They have a list of assumptions, conflations and misunderstandings.

They assume that because Christ was beaten and killed, that we must be beaten and killed (they try to say the verse regarding "enduring to the end" means that). But like always, Scripture flies in the face of their assertions. They conflate every day tribulation with the Great Tribulation. They confuse the Second Coming with the Second Advent. Dispensations, which are obviously true are all but lost on that crowd for some reason or another. They consistently and profusely assert the Darby fallacy. There's just an entire slew of bad theology that lands them at their conclusions. Under any serious scrutiny, the best that they have is a bowl of lukewarm gruel.

When it comes down to it, people like to say things that are pious, because they sound so good. At first blush, some of it makes a lot of sense, but our intuition is garbage up against the Truth. It's a reason I really don't care for platitudes or rather the way that they are used. Christ truly is the stumbling block. His Blood and Its sufficiency to save people is far too simple for many people to accept. In the back of their mind, something else must be done, because there just has to be more to it than trusting in the Blood, right? Also, we can't escape, right? That's too cloud 9 stuff. What makes us good enough? Well put like that, nothing makes us good enough. However, God ordained it in his Word. Again, Scripture is stubborn and the flesh doesn't like it one bit and I think that's a large reason that there is such a hostile reaction to it; the escape confounds the flesh.

Pride. It's always been pride and it always will be, right up until the end.
 
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cavalier973

Well-Known Member
So, I read this thread and thought about looking into some of the perspectives of the "no rapture" people. To be honest, some of them make some good points with plenty of scripture to back it up that the rapture and second coming may be one and the same event. Sure hope not. I've been looking forward to the rapture all of my life....I am confused now :/.....but, I’m not afraid to study about this...because we are instructed to study and rightly divide the word...to see if these things be so. We should be able to study these scriptures together to see why their ideas are right or wrong. But sadly, I don’t think we'll be allowed to do that here...so I will study alone.
Here is a good article explaining differences between the Rapture and the Second Coming (I got it from the list of articles that Chris posted--thanks, Chris!)

https://www.raptureforums.com/rapture/7-reasons-why-the-rapture-is-not-the-second-coming/
 

Hidden

Well-Known Member
The pre-trib rapture is embedded in almost every New Testament book. Some don't explicitly mention it but there's a sense of expectation when they mention phrases like "the appearing of the Lord Jesus Christ". It's always something positive, something to look forward to. It is the Blessed Hope for a reason, and that is because there is no judgment attached to it except the Bema Judgment which happens in heaven.
 

Jewels

Well-Known Member
The thing is: while the disappearance of believers is no secret, the timing of the Rapture is known only to the Lord (I'll use the Bible version you're used to, unless there's one you prefer instead):

" But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left." (Matthew 24:36-40, KJV, emphasis mine)

We know this particular section of Matthew 24 is talking about the Rapture, because at some point in the Tribulation, people would be able to count when the Lord would return at Armageddon. But there is no sign for the Lord taking His Church home. But when the Trumpet sounds, that is the alert that the Rapture is happening, and it happens in a split-second.

The Lord confirms yet again that the Rapture will not be known until it happens in Acts:

" When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth." (Acts 1:6-8, NASB, emphasis mine)

Whoever argued with you about the "secret rapture" really needs to pay better attention to Scripture. They're conflating the Rapture with the Second Coming, and it's a common mistake mid and post -tribbers make.

I'll have more to post about the verse in 1 Thess tomorrow (studying for my exam this Monday).
Thanks! That makes sense....so feeling a little better now.....still got more questions though that appeared to make sense using scripture.
 

Jewels

Well-Known Member
okay, here is their second argument that has me a little perplexed:
Jesus said that there will be only one resurrection of (the just and the unjust) “Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs shall hear His voice, and shall come forth; those who did the good {deeds} to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment” John 5:28-29
so, they are saying that for there to be a Pretrib rapture, there would have to be more than one raising of the dead, when scripture says the above? So my question is where does it make it clear that there are 2 separate raisings of the dead? If the verse above is the rapture verse, that couldn’t be because Jesus said the unjust will be judged at the end of the 1000 yr. reign , right? They aren’t judged before His reign on earth, then again after...
 

daygo

Well-Known Member
My 2 penneth is there are 2 resurrections first one are in 2 or 3 phases that explains the different people or groups that are raised. The second one at the white thrown judgement where the book of life is opened imo there are people in this book otherwise pointless having a book, so who are they I can only imagine they're the ones that have made it to the end of the millennium and go into eternity whilst the ones not in the book of life go into the lake of fire.
 
okay, here is their second argument that has me a little perplexed:
Jesus said that there will be only one resurrection of (the just and the unjust) “Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs shall hear His voice, and shall come forth; those who did the good {deeds} to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment” John 5:28-29
so, they are saying that for there to be a Pretrib rapture, there would have to be more than one raising of the dead, when scripture says the above? So my question is where does it make it clear that there are 2 separate raisings of the dead? If the verse above is the rapture verse, that couldn’t be because Jesus said the unjust will be judged at the end of the 1000 yr. reign , right? They aren’t judged before His reign on earth, then again after...
Let's take a look at John 5:28 here in context:

" Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." (John 5:25-29, KJV, emphasis mine)

It doesn't say here "there will be only one resurrection", but that there will be "a resurrection of life" and "a resurrection of damnation". Otherwise, their logic would negate Revelation 20, as salvation is not decided at either judgment. Either it is rewards (At the Bema Seat), or the sentence (At the Great White Throne):

"And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. "(Revelation 20:11-15, KJV, emphasis mine)

Since our salvation was settled at the Cross, we do not appear at this judgment. And since it is the blood of Christ that seals our salvation, our names are in the the Book of Life.

Also, one more point to consider: if there were only one resurrection, then the Rapture couldn't happen before the Millennium!! That would mean that Revelation 20:4-6 were wrong:

" And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. " (Revelation 20:4-6, KJV, emphasis mine)

So right there in Revelation, it says "first resurrection"; that means there is more than one. So anyone who is telling you that there is "only one resurrection" is contradicting Scripture itself.

Now, as to the "first resurrection": nothing in Scripture says that a resurrection has to happen all at the same time. In fact, there is a specific order that Scripture mentions:

" But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. "
(1 Corinthians 15:29-28, KJV, emphasis mine)

In that passage, it shows that the Lord will come for His first (the Church is with the Lord as "firstfruits"). Since the Lord is already resurrected, he will come for his Church, then the rest at his Second Coming.
 
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Eric Nicholas

Well-Known Member
Exactly, just as was previously said, they make things up. Secret raptures, only one resurrection, the Darby nonsense, and on and on. They have to make things up to affirm their worldview, because there isn't Biblical support for it. They are sure of things that ain't so. There isn't an explicit nor implicit doctrine of only one resurrection at one time. It simply isn't there. Post-tribbers can shout it all they want to; their dog doesn't hunt.

Not to get in a ditch, but look at Jehovah's Witness. Somehow, someway, the 144,000 confuses them into a doctrine of utter confusion, when Scripture plainly tells you who they are. Folks just do this all of the time to settle what they want to be true. I really think many of these people are enamored with the thought of enduring the Tribulation.

What a shame. I find it remarkable that many just assert things as if others weren't going to check them on it. Sadly, I suppose many do not check them. Not here. That stuff won't take a breath here before it drops prostrate and helpless. It won't even twitch.
 
Exactly, just as was previously said, they make things up. Secret raptures, only one resurrection, the Darby nonsense, and on and on. They have to make things up to affirm their worldview, because there isn't Biblical support for it. They are sure of things that ain't so. There isn't an explicit nor implicit doctrine of only one resurrection at one time. It simply isn't there. Post-tribbers can shout it all they want to; their dog doesn't hunt.

Not to get in a ditch, but look at Jehovah's Witness. Somehow, someway, the 144,000 confuses them into a doctrine of utter confusion, when Scripture plainly tells you who they are. Folks just do this all of the time to settle what they want to be true. I really think many of these people are enamored with the thought of enduring the Tribulation.

What a shame. I find it remarkable that many just assert things as if others weren't going to check them on it. Sadly, I suppose many do not check them. Not here. That stuff won't take a breath here before it drops prostrate and helpless. It won't even twitch.
That's what happens when they only read the parts of the Bible "that they like" and not the whole thing, cover to cover.
 

maranatha14

Well-Known Member
If one is a true believer in Jesus Christ, they will be taken in the rapture. The Christians who believe in a post-trib or no-trib rapture will just be surprised. I know why I believe in a pre-Trib rapture; all the same reasons most of you believe. I will stand behind this reasoning, but I see no reason to get into an argument over it.

I am, however, baffled how in this political and worldly mess of a climate we are living in, that more Christian churches are not teaching about End Times. I don't understand this. God loves us and and has already died for us. The Tribulation is God's wrath against this earth and His people who refuse to believe in His Son. The rapture IS the Blessed Hope, and a beautiful example of how HE is in control. A reminder of this hope could do so much for so many right now. We as believers do not need to worry; HE will always be with us.

I find it exciting. But again..... I will not argue with fellow Christians over it.
 

Eric Nicholas

Well-Known Member
Some people just aren't keen to arguing and there's nothing wrong with that. That said, I don't like arguing (I prefer debating as "arguing" has negative connotations), but I will definitely step up if the Truth is being lacerated. I have a particular disdain for wolves. I grew up around them and I know what they smell like.
 

Uturn9319

Well-Known Member
Some people just aren't keen to arguing and there's nothing wrong with that. That said, I don't like arguing (I prefer debating as "arguing" has negative connotations), but I will definitely step up if the Truth is being lacerated. I have a particular disdain for wolves. I grew up around them and I know what they smell like.
I was talking to my elder sister today. We haven't spoken in a long time. She plays for the worship band in her church.
When I mentioned the rapture, she said, "Well, if it happens, then whatever." I mentioned other prophecies. The conversation was cut short by.. a slight cut on her finger which apparently needed more attention than the conversation. Seeing people with the mask of the beast on. I got so tired of wearing this stupid mask to pick up a few groceries. The cynicism about the rapture is staggering. How is it I get accused of being negative about the world, but I'm optimistic about the rapture, and everyone else seems to be reversed. Sad world. You can have it. I'll take my ticket out of here, thanks.
 
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